Things New and Old

Ancient truths revealed in the Scriptures are often forgotten, disbelieved or distorted, and therefore lost in the passage of time. Such ancient truths when rediscovered and relearned are 'new' additions to the treasury of ancient truths.

Christ showed many new things to the disciples, things prophesied by the prophets of old but hijacked and perverted by the elders and their traditions, but which Christ reclaimed and returned to His people.

Many things taught by the Apostles of Christ have been perverted or substituted over the centuries. Such fundamental doctrines like salvation by grace and justification have been hijacked and perverted and repudiated by sincere Christians. These doctrines need to be reclaimed and restored to God's people.

There are things both new and old here. "Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things" 2Ti 2:7.

Saturday, October 30, 2010

Messing up Romans 8:29-30 & Ordo Salutis!

Marvelous orchids - gift from Chris Athavle during his last visit

Stephen
The cross was a payment not a possibility!

Sing F Lau
Amen! The cross was a FULL and COMPLETE payment of an enormous crushing debt!
To be EXACT - for AS MANY AS God the Father has gave to Christ to redeem.
'AS MANY AS' means not one more, and not one less!

Stephen
Thank God for many as received him, TO THEM he gave power to become the sons of God.

Steffie
wait, wait, didn't Jesus say "and not for these only, but also for those who will be won by their word?"

Sing F Lau
As many as receive Him - their doing so EVIDENCE that they ARE ALREADY justified and regenerated.
But their believing in Christ secures them to right to call God their Father; i.e. right and authority to claim that they are children of God.

Stephen
again your ordo salutis is muddled. This sounds like eternal justification/hyper calvinism. Justifcation by faith actus transiens in time. Also there is an overlapping, does a person repent and believe or believe and repent? Who can tell? Does it all happen at once, the whole package? No. that some things happen in time.

The whole idea is regeneration first conversion thereafter, that is when they are justified. Faith alone is conditio sine qua non for justification. If in Romans 8:28-29 calling and glorifcation occur within time so must justification by faith alone.

Sing F Lau
StephenThe whole idea is regeneration first conversion thereafter, that is when they are justified. Faith alone is conditio sine qua non for justification. If in Romans 8:28-29 calling and glorifcation occur within time so must justification by faith alone.
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Faith alone is conditio sine qua non for EXPERIENTIAL justification - see Gen 15:1-6. No faith, no experiential justification. That's true.

The justification spoken of in Rom 8:29-30 refers to the justification that is true of every elect, EVEN the elect who died in infancy, and those mentally challenged and non-sentient. Therefore the justification here CANNOT POSSIBLY refer to justification by faith (man's act of believing) - because there are elect of God who are incapable of doing so. To deny this - there are elect of God who are incapable of of believing - i.e. is really foolish. It goes against all the reformed confessions, eg WCF/1689, etc.

The justification spoken of here is legal justification by God's FREE grace - of an UNGODLY condemned spiritually dead sinner!

Sing F Lau
Be very careful when you marshal Rom 8:28-29 to prove justification by man's faith! Be very careful... that is a very powerful passage that actually DAMNED that heresy. How so? you retort. Here's how...

Please pay careful attention and unlearn one common and popular irrational interpretation of this passage.

The first basic point to note concerning Romans 8:29-30 is that the people embraced here includes ABSOLUTELY every single elect in every link of the chain. The exact number predestinated is the same number effectually called unto eternal life through free grace justification based solely on the righteousness and blood of Jesus Christ.

Every single elect predestinated to be conformed to the image of God’s Son, God called... God justified... and God glorified… all by God’s free grace, without any human co-operation.

Not a single elect of God missed this call. So, what is this call? Is it the gospel call to faith, or effectual call unto eternal life?

This call CANNOT POSSIBLY be the gospel call to conversion - because the gospel call to conversion does not reach every single elect who are effectually called unto eternal life, see WCF/1689.10.3.

The call here is the divine effectual call unto eternal life - and this is true of every single elect, with no exception whatsoever, WCF/1689.10.1. Every elect is called unto eternal life by the direct and immediate and efficacious call of God through His Word (life-giving Logos) and Spirit. This He did by justifying them, i.e. He removed the just condemnation upon them, and imputed to them the righteousness of Christ, all by pure free grace, not on condition of faith.

One is gravely mistaken in understanding that the call in Romans 8:30 has anything to do with the gospel call. It is classic eisegesis by the misguided and confused reformed folks.

The justification spoken here is the justification applied at effectual calling unto eternal life, spoken of in 1689.11.1. This is the justification applied to every single elect. This is not the justification experienced by faith at initial conversion through the gospel call - because not all the elect will receive the gospel call and experience justification by faith.

The justification spoken of here is legal justification prior to faith; i.e. justification applied when an elect was condemned, dead and a child of wrath. This passage does not support the view of gospel call leading to justification by faith. There is no gospel call here. There is no justification by faith here. There is effectual call unto life... effectual call unto life requires the removal of condemnation, i.e. it requires the justification secured by Christ to be applied to the elect personally.

There is justification by divine free grace through the righteousness of Christ. When condemnation is removed, eternal life is bestowed; yes, eternal life is bestowed... thus guaranteeing glorification. Effectual call unto eternal life guarantees glorification regardless of the amount of salvation blessings one will experience through the ministry of the word.

There is no gospel call here. Apostle Paul did not say, “whom the preacher called God justified.” The preacher issues a gospel call to conversion. But what did Christ say about the call to life? John 5:25 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.” Please note, this does not say the ministry of the preached word, nor the preached words of Christ, it is not the voice of the preacher, but the ‘voice of the Son of God’.

How easy it is to usurp Christ in the effectual calling of the spiritually dead elect to eternal life with the preachers’ gospel call of the regenerated elect to conversion to the truth.

Conclusion:
The Bible's order of salvation is this:Salvation Purposed before the foundation of the world:
Justification Purposed by God from eternity

Salvation Accomplished at the cross:
Justification Secured by Christ at the cross

Salvation Applied at effectual calling of each elect:
Effectual calling to eternal salvation
- Justification Applied by Father
- Regeneration by the Holy Spirit
- Adoption
- Gift of the Spirit of adoption, who works all saving graces in the child of God... enabling him to believe the gospel truth.

Salvation Manifested
Gospel Calling to temporal salvation
- Justification Experienced by faith in Jesus Christ
- Justification Evidenced by faith & works.

Every elect are effectually called to grace and eternal salvation.
Not every child of God will experience conversion through the gospel call.
Of those who do, they experience conversion to vastly different degree.
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