Beautiful houses in ruin - like the gospels and fables of the 21st centuryHere are some exchanges between friends on Facebook. Various issued are touched upon in the discussion - what's the gospel, who is it intended for, do all the elect hear the gospel, what's the relationship between regeneration and the preaching of the gospel, etc, etc.
Read a learn to think through these various issues.
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Taylor
People's opinions and mindless subjectivist drivel is not the Gospel, no matter what they claim it to be.
Sing F Lau
Andrew, what is the gospel?
What are some examples opinions and mindless subjectivist drivel that is not the gospel?
It would be interesting to know.
Plotn
The gospel is that there is salvation only for those who believe in Jesus Christ. Mindless drivel is stuff like Rick Warren's Purpose Filled Life.
Takaid
Oh yea, i like this. Even the famous theologians of the past cldnt write the gospel.
The gospel remains simple to the ear of an illitrate farm labourer down the contry.
Theories wld come and go. Dont follow reformers nomatter how valid are t...heir doctrines, not even Paul, jus Jesus Christ and and the kerigma.
Taylor
@Sing - How about 1 Corinthians 15:1-4?
Some examples? Anyone that says 'you must have this experience' or that one...it adds to the Gospel and the Gospel fails to be in Christ alone when that happens.
Sing F Lau
So, if someone asks, what does 1Cor 15:1-4 say the gospel is?
Tell us, what is the gospel?
There is video clip on FB - someone asking questions at a Christian Convention book store like "what is the gospel to you," "what do understand by ju...stification," etc...
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Interview with Christians "What is the Gospel?" [HQ]
This interview was at a Christian book store convention. 1 out of 60 people got it right.
Length:2:40
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Taylor
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is pretty straightforward Sing...not sure how many 'ways' there are to twist that up...it's pretty clear.
So what is the Gospel? The Gospel, quite simply, is the proclamation of the good news i.e. the proclamation of what Christ has done. His work.
Anything called 'Gospel' that adds in human experience, human works, or anything human apart fro...m the work of Christ alone, can't really be called 'Gospel.' That's not good news, it's bad news, if the Gospel includes our efforts. We will miss the mark of course.
Therefore, since the Gospel is the proclamation of Christ's work, the Gospel also saves, since Christ's work alone is what saves.
Sing F Lau
Since Christ's work ALONE is what saves, then how is it that the gospel ALSO saves??? Then it is NO LONGER that Christ's work ALONE is what saves! ALONE, if it has any meaning at all, EXCLUDES everything else, does it not? No? Then please t...ell us what does ALONE mean?
Just thinking!
Taylor
Well...the Gospel is the good news of Christ's work, is it not? Essentially, the Gospel is what Christ has done...which saves.
I dunno Sing, it's a good question...Paul say this though:
Now I would remind you, brothers, of the GOSPEL I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2and by which you are BEING SAVED
Any thoughts?
Taylor
Yes, alone does indeed exclude everything else...
Taylor
And the conflict here is easily resolved when we see what Paul wrote about belief in other places...such as:
Phil 1:29 (ESV): For it has been GRANTED to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only BELIEVE in him but also suffer for h...is sake
Even belief is a divine work.
Sing F Lau
No, believing is something God's children must do!
It is true that the indwelling Spirit works the graces of faith in God's children which enable them to believe... but believing is the work of God's children.
John 6
28 ¶ Then said they unto... him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Sing F Lau
Andrew@ "Now I would remind you, brothers, of the GOSPEL I preach...ed to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2and by which you are BEING SAVED."
Any thoughts?
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Andrew, you asked a very important question. I hope you will demand and search for a good answer for your question. Give your mind no rest until you are satisfied in your own mind. Finding the biblical answer to this question will give you a very important key to rightly divide the word of truth.
Let me put it this:
The salvation that God purposed for His people, and which Christ accomplished for His people, and which the Spirit of God applies to each elect is eternal salvation - that saves them from their just eternal condemnation. This salvation is completely and solely and wholly be the free and sovereign grace of God; with the elect being completely passive from beginning to end.
When this eternal salvation is bestowed, it turned an elect into a child of God. As a child of God he is commanded and expected to do many things to save himself, i.e. there is a salvation that God's children must work out for themselves... all the way from believing the gospel, growing in grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ, living soberly and godly and righteously in this present world. This salvation that involves the activities and responsibility of of God's children is a DISTINCT and DIFFERENT salvation from that which is wholly and solely by the free grace of God.
It is the FAILURE to distinguish these TWO DISTINCT SALVATION spoken and taught in the Scriptures that has stumbled so many so called calvinists!
Think through this very slowly and carefully...
Salvation that is monergistic by the free and sovereign grace of God MUST be kept distinct and separate from that which is synergistic through the obedience of God's children to God's will and commands.
I am off... zzzzzzzz. 1.31am local time!
Taylor
Where is the dislike button? Multiple salvations? Umm...disagree. Completely.
Whidde
Every time I try to share the message of Christ people get mad. I think it is the kicking over tables part they do not like.
Sing F Lau
Andrew, thank you for your complete disagreement. Vehement objection is always to be preferred than indifference!
That being the case, may I now ask you a few questions.
What is the salvation that God has accomplished for His people in Jesus Christ? Please describe the content and nature of that salvation. And is that salvation EXACTLY the same for all the elect? Is the extend of this salvation dependent upon any anything in, and the activities of the elect?
What is the salvation that God's children are commanded to work out for themselves? Please describe the content and nature of that salvation. Is this salvation the same in every child of God? Is the extent of this salvation dependent upon any anything in, and the activities of God's children?
Consider these common passages:
Acts 2:
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
What is the salvation spoken of? Is it the same as the salvation already finished by Christ for them?
1Tim 4
15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
What is the salvation that Timothy must work for himself and his hearers? Is it the same as the salvation already finished by Christ for them?
Phil 2
12 ¶ Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
What is the salvation that God's children are to work out for themselves? Is it the same as the salvation already finished by Christ for them?
Give these some thought.
Sing F Lau
Taylor Where is the dislike button? Multiple salvations? Umm...disagree. Completely.
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Andrew, there is a life that you derived from your parents, wherein you were complete passive. That 'free and sovereign' (i.e. with respect to you)... actions of your parents brought you into LIFE. You have nothing to do with it at all.
As a child of your parents, there is a life that you must live out in which you take very active part. If you are obedient to godly parenting, you will have a rich and blessed life... if you don't you will have a ruined life.
The first life has to do with your BEING of your life
The second life has to do with your WELL-BEING of your life.
Do you consider this distinction as having multiple lives?
EVEN SO the clear biblical distinction between the salvation that turned us into children of God... all by the free and sovereign grace of God; and the salvation affects our well-being as children of God... greatly conditioned upon our obedient response to our Father's will and commands for us.
The former speaks of the sovereignty of God in our eternal salvation - our BEING as children of God.
The latter speak of our human responsibility in our temporal salvation - our WELL-BEING as children of God.
May our Lord grant you understanding of these basic truth.
Taylor
I agree there is ACTUAL salvation (Christ's work given by grace alone) and RESULTS of salvation (Also given by grace alone...such as faith and repentance).
But to say there are two 'salvations' spoken of...I cannot agree.
I will not go so far... as to say you think this...but the inevitable result is that there are people that are saved who never believe!
What does God save us to? Indifference? Disobedience? Unbelief?
Why would God save us in the first place if a changed life is not the result?
Taylor
Phil 2:12-13... http://sarcasticcalvinist.blogspot.com/2010/08/work-out-your-salvation.html
Work OUT does not mean work FOR. Paul is commanding Christians, who already HAVE salvation, to work it out as in, outwardly display it. Why wouldn't we do this to get the most out of what God has given us?
This does not mean there are multiple salvations.
Sing F Lau
Keep talking.
You would agree that the salvation that Christ has accomplished for all His elect has CERTAIN DEFINITE results, and that these results ARE EXACTLY the same in extent and degree for each and every one of the elect. Can you agree... on this? Or would say that some elect are more saved than others by the salvation in Jesus Christ?
Now, please tell us what are the CERTAIN and DEFINITE result of the ACTUAL salvation by the work of the Lord Jesus Christ which MUST BE TRUE of every single elect?
Give thoughts to these...
I will answer you valid questions. Asking good questions is a great way to learn the truth.
Taylor
"You would agree that the salvation that Christ has accomplished for all His elect has CERTAIN DEFINITE results, and that these results ARE EXACTLY the same in extent and degree for each and every one of the elect. Can you agree... on this...? Or would say that some elect are more saved than others by the salvation in Jesus Christ?"
Yes, I agree.
But, what are the results of salvation? They are not always equal in amount, etc. I.E. Some persons may have more faith than others. But even this is sovereignly administered. (Eph 2:8-9, Rom 12:3)
Do you agree that every single member of the elect believes, has faith, and demonstrates repentance? Because the NT says all of those things are gifts of God, granted to His people...does it not?
Taylor
And then you have scriptures like this:
John 10:26: but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.
I.E. The reverse (if they believed) is true as well. If they believed, they would be part of His flock (saved).
Taylor Or more properly, if they were of His flock, they would believe.
Sing F Lau
Andrew@"Yes, I agree."
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Do you know the implication of your agreement?
Your agreement with the statement - "the salvation that Christ has accomplished for all His elect has CERTAIN DEFINITE results, and that these results ARE EXACTLY the... same in extent and degree for each and every one of the elect" - MEANS that those things which do not fit this definition is distinct from and not part and parcel of that salvation, they are distinct and separate from it. Do you understand?
I like your question - what are the results of salvation? I hope by 'salvation', you are referring to that salvation purposed by God, accomplished by Christ, and applied to each elect by the Spirit, and to be consummated at Christ coming, ALL BY the free and sovereign grace of Jesus Christ.
That's a very good question. Now, please try to answer your own question... what are the results of that salvation whose result are ARE EXACTLY the same in extent and degree for each and every one of the elect.
Sing F Lau
Andrew@ Do you agree that every single member of the elect believes, has faith, and demonstrates repentance? Because the NT says all of those things are gifts of God, granted to His people...does it not?
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No, I do not agree. There are God's children (sentient ones, of course), the elect whom God himself has effectually called out of the state of sin and death to grace and salvation who are not reached by the gospel ministry, therefore are not brought to faith.
Faith cometh by hearing. The grace of faith worked in the heart of a child of God can only be made manifest by the preaching of the gospel. Since the gospel does not reach them, they do not manifest faith.
God has His children in every part of the earth in every generation. "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands."
Historically, the gospel did not reached them after those people groups had become extinct!
The Bible does say that salvation through the redemption of Jesus Christ is the gift to His elect people.
Sing F Lau
Andrew@ And then you have scriptures like this:
John 10:26: but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.
I.E. The reverse (if they believed) is true as well. If they believed, they would be part of His flock (saved).
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Your ...reasoning is faulty at best!
Jesus was addressing a specific group of people. He was not making a universal statement. Their unbelief is due to the fact of their spiritual state. To be part of the flock means those who were former lost have been found and gathered into the flock!
You take a big leap and conclude that EVERY SINGLE member of the elect believes, has faith, and demonstrates repentance.
That is simply not true... some of God's children are incapable of hearing and believing, and others, in the providence of God, never had the opportunity of hearing the gospel in order that they may believe the glorious truth of their salvation.
And yet, these are NOT in any way less SAVED by the finished work of Jesus Christ. They are EQUALLY saved as Apostle Paul, or any great man of faith you care to name!
They are equally justified by the free grace of God, they are equally regenerated by the free grace of God, they are equally adopted as children of God and have access to all the right and privileges belonging to God's children, and they shall be equally glorified!
Remember the glorious declaration in Rom 8:29-30.
Some children of God experience more of the temporal blessing/salvation in this life, others less... but they are all EQUALLY saved in the eternal redemption through the finished work of Jesus Christ.
Taylor
"No, I do not agree. There are God's children (sentient ones, of course), the elect whom God himself has effectually called out of the state of sin and death to grace and salvation who are not reached by the gospel ministry, therefore are ...not brought to faith."
Examples from the Bible please?
"Faith cometh by hearing. The grace of faith worked in the heart of a child of God can only be made manifest by the preaching of the gospel. Since the gospel does not reach them, they do not manifest faith."
Which means they are unregenerate. If they were, God would work faith in them.
"You take a big leap and conclude that EVERY SINGLE member of the elect believes, has faith, and demonstrates repentance."
Because this is the God-ordained means!
"Some children of God experience more of the temporal blessing/salvation in this life, others less... but they are all EQUALLY saved in the eternal redemption through the finished work of Jesus Christ."
I agree...but there are NO children of God who experience NONE.
Sing F Lau
Andrew@ Examples from the Bible please?
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These are plain statements from the Scriptures:
Rev 5:9 "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us... to God by thy blood out of EVERY kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation."
Rev 7:9 "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of ALL nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands."
Can you demonstrate to me that every one of the vast multitude of the redeemed out of EVERY and ALL has heard and believe the gospel? If you can do that, I will demonstrate to you that very many of them did not EVER HEAR the gospel of Jesus Christ, much less believe it!
Go ahead. The honor is yours.
Sing F Lau
sing@ "Faith cometh by hearing. The grace of faith worked in the heart of a child of God can only be made manifest by the preaching of the gospel. Since the gospel does not reach them, they do not manifest faith."
Andrew@ Which means they are unregenerate. If they were, God would work faith in them.
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If this is the quality of your reasoning, I give up!
You are working with the FALSE presupposition that every elect will have the gospel brought to them. Therefore, you conclude consistently, if one does not have the gospel brought to them, they cannot possibly be among the elect!
Now, I give you the honor to demonstrate to us that every elect of God, in God's purpose, will have the gospel preached to him.
Taylor
The burden of proof lies with you that they don't Sing
Sing F Lau
You insisted that every elect will hear and believe the gospel and experience repentance and faith.
So, I give you the honor and opportunity to prove your assertion, and you decline! Why? Can't prove it? I was advised long ago not to make st...atement that you cannot validate!
If that's the way you want, then I will give you the proof from the Scriptures.
Based on the statement in Rev 5:9 and 7:9, those glorified in heaven are gathered out from EVERY and ALL nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues.
You want to know some of them stated in the Scriptures? The book of Genesis mentions many of them... e.g. see Gen 10 and 15. According to the Rev 5:9 and 7:9, people from those groups are found in heaven? There is no evidence in the Scriptures that the gospel ever reached those people groups before they were destroyed.
How then did they find their way to heaven? How was it ever possible?
Obviously, you are free to disagree, in which case the great honor is yours to prove that the gospel was brought to those people groups before they became extinct. That won't be difficult for you, if your notion has any truth in it.
Sing F Lau
sing@ "Some children of God experience more of the temporal blessing/salvation in this life, others less... but they are all EQUALLY saved in the eternal redemption through the finished work of Jesus Christ."
Andrew@ I agree...but there are ...NO children of God who experience NONE.
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That's true... even those children of God who do not have the privilege of the gospel ministry, they also experience some degree of temporal blessings and salvation.
By virtue of the effectual calling out of the state of sin and death to grace and salvation, they are already taught by God the Father... "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more."
They have a knowledge of God, they fear and reverent the God of heaven in their heart, they work righteousness, they are kept from the sinful ways of the world...
BUT of course, when your say "but there are NO children of God who experience NONE" - you meant NONE of them will not hear the gospel and and experience conversion to Christ. So I am reading your words in context!
Taylor
1) Rev 5:9 and 7:9 nowhere says that some of them didn't believe. Unbelief is connected with condemnation all over scripture.
2) Acts 13:48...as many that were ordained to eternal life *believed*
Were the ones who did not believe ordained to... eternal life too?
This is a foolish discussion really...you're way outside of orthodoxy on this one Sing.
Sing F Lau
Andrew, let me say this and end here:
If you insist that all those mentioned in Rev 5:9 and 7:9 did hear and believe the gospel, then demonstrate it.
It is not good enough to protest that nowhere says that some of them didn't believe! If you insist that every one of them heard and believed the gospel and experienced repentance, just demonstrate the validity of your notion!
Please get this basic point into your head, otherwise you are just raving illogically.
'Unbelief' presupposes HEARING the truth and rejecting it. Do you charge a person for 'unbelief' if has never even heard of the gospel? On what ground or basis do you charge him for unbelief? Can you charge a man for unbelieving if he has not even heard of the gospel?
Andrew@"Were the ones who did not believe ordained to eternal life too?"
You probably refer to this passage: Ac 13:48 "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."
This passage described a very specific people who heard the gospel. It is not a statement of universal truth. As many as the Gentiles AMONG the hearers who were ordained unto eternal life did believe the gospel.
You take a giant leap and turn that into a statement that every single elect will hear and believe the gospel.
Sorry, it is pointless to continue on this subject.
Thanks for the exchanges - they will appear on my blog as "Gospels and Fables' for my people to read and learn what dead orthodoxy teaches.
Taylor
Sing@ 'Unbelief' presupposes HEARING the truth and rejecting it. Do you charge a person for 'unbelief' if he has never even heard of the gospel?"
YES. Romans 1:18-32. Especially verses 18-20.
Not hearing the Gospel is irrelevant. People are still DEAD IN SIN either way.
"If you insist that all those mentioned in Rev 5:9 and 7:9 did hear and believe the gospel, then demonstrate if."
Can you demonstrate that some did not? The same logic applies both ways.
"it is not good enough to protest that nowhere says th...at some of them didn't believe!"
True. But, it is not good either to open the possibility of some being saved without belief, as scripture nowhere teaches us that, or even the possibility of that.
Sing F Lau
Here in case you didn't read them:
Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 ¶ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in... them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
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Were they without excuse for unbelieving the gospel, the SPECIAL revelation?
Or were they without excuse for rejecting what is obvious through NATURAL revelation?
Just what do you want to make these passage say?
Just quoting them doesn't help!
Sing F Lau
Not hearing the Gospel is irrelevant. People are still DEAD IN SIN either way.
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Andrew, you first INSISTED that every elect in heaven hears the gospel and experiences repentance... Now, you say, 'not hearing the gospel is irrelevant.' ...
If it is necessary to hear the gospel and be converted by it IN ORDER to enter heaven, then hearing the gospel is ABSOLUTELY necessary, is it not?
The hearing and believing the gospel is indeed IRRELEVANT as far as one's entry into eternal glory is concerned. When God effectually calls an elect, he is perfectly FITTED for eternal glory... nothing more is needed.
It would be of great benefit for such to hear the gospel. The gospel brings great benefits to the WELL BEING to God's children while here in this present life.
Sing F Lau
sing@"it is not good enough to protest that nowhere says that some of them didn't believe!"
Andrew@ "True, but, it is not good either to open the possibility of some being saved without belief, as scripture nowhere teaches us that, or even t...he possibility of that.
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I have demonstrated the fact that Rev 5:9 and 7:9 necessarily require that some of them couldn't possibly have heard the gospel and experienced repentance.
You are not interested to deal with them. You just go on raving your preconceived ideas!
Thanks. I am getting weary. You have the last words.
Taylor
"I have demonstrated the fact that Rev 5:9 and 7:9 necessarily require that some of them couldn't possibly have heard the gospel and experienced repentance."
You have not in any way demonstrated that.
I think you need to compare scripture with scripture brother. Salvation is linked to belief all over the New Testament. Those who have been saved believe. It is the result of regeneration.
Sing F Lau
I take that as your last words. Thanks again.
Thanks for the exchanges - they will appear on my blog as "Gospels and Fables' for my people to read and learn what dead orthodoxy teaches.
Taylor
By the way, your belief also opens wide the door to universalism. I assume you do not espouse universalism, of course...but it surely is the logical result. OK, off to work I go. Thanks for your comments.
Sing F Lau
Andrew, think carefully for once, won't you.
What do you think of a mind that can start out from the premise of election and particular redemption, then take a great leap and end up with universalism as a logical result?
Isn't that a perverse and twisted mind?
Taylor
Like I said Sing..."I assume you do not espouse universalism."
Sing F Lau
My point is not what you say about me.
My point is the nature of your reasoning.
You said, "IT SURELY IS THE LOGICAL RESULT."
It reflects very poorly on your logical reasoning, if any!
Taylor
My reasoning is that when God saves, he saves TO certain things, and these are NOT NOT NOT a separate 'salvation' but rather, the results of being saved...which is, we agree, by grace alone.
And I cannot agree that God saves a person who then never believes. That's silly
My reasoning is that when God saves, he saves TO certain things, and these are NOT NOT NOT a separate 'salvation' but rather, the results of being saved...which is, we agree, by grace alone.
And I cannot agree that God saves a person who then never believes. That's silly
Sing F Lau
Thanks
(You have changed subject again!...
Even then, you still fail to distinguish the eternal salvation by God's grace, and the temporal salvation by the obedience of God's children.)
