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| a village house with its orchard |
Sing F Lau
Gospel regeneration is very attractive, as well as addictive!
It gives it adherents an aura of power and indispensability in the eternal salvation of God's elect. God is impotent to produce His children without them!
Why can't they see the simple distinction that assisting God to produce His children is a WHOLE WORLD OF DIFFERENCE from helping God in nurturing His children whom He has fathered Himself by free and sovereign grace?
Sing F Lau
And imagine the powerful and subtle hold the preachers have upon them they have "CO-FATHERED" - when they are taught that it was the preachers who were instrumental in getting them regenerated by God, i.e. brought them into ETERNAL life, they were instrumental in their new birth as children of God.
How indebted they should be to their preachers. Without their ministry, they wouldn't have been born again by the Spirit, and would have gone to hell!
Such lies would have a very powerful hold on the converts. It also gives them that subtle power to lord over the Lord's heritage!
Gowens
Br. Sing, I would that more of God's little children knew and loved these beautiful and comforting truths of God's acts as taught in His Bible. Appreciate you and your truths.
Patron
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Patron
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Romans 1:16-17
Patron
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
Romans 1:16-17
Patron
Two godly teachers, two different views...
Sing F Lau
Yoel, often 'good' teachers may actually differ in substance. Then either one of them, of both of them are in error. If they indeed differ in substance, then they both can't be right at the same time.
Sometimes they may appear to differ in expression only, and other time look at the same subject from different perspectives...
We who come later must do our own thinking, and endeavor to express in such a way that truth is presented in a most consistent and winsome manner. Even then, we are not exempt from being misunderstood and misrepresented.
All readers of what has been written have a certain level of presupposition, and this will affect to some degree what they read. a good example is Brother Trevor quoting all those passages to support his idea of the instrumentality of faith in justification before God... even though the old school calvinist authors clearly intend to express the instrumentality of faith TO MANIFEST / EVIDENCE the justified state!
Some of Gill's expressions may actually lend support to lovers of gospel regeneration!
Sing F Lau
Gospel regeneration is obviously a lie. Here is one reason:
Consider this PLAIN declaration concerning the gospel ministry, its effect upon two types of audience.
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
This declaration informs us that the gospel preaching comes to TWO categories of people: to them that perish, and to them that ARE SAVED. These are people that are ALREADY there, and the gospel preaching comes to them.
There are them that ARE SAVED - by the free grace of God. They are already called out of their native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation in Christ Jesus - justified, regenerated and adopted, and indwelt by the Spirit of God, all ready and fitted for eternal glory. There were regenerated PRIOR to the gospel message being brought to them. The gospel preaching comes to them. To these, the gospel message speaks of the power of God in saving them.
There are also them that perish - still in their native state of sin and death. To them, the same gospel is nothing but foolishness.
Christenson
Romans 10:14-15 "How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
Patron
oh yeah Fran! always how beautiful is to know what God has already done for us in His gospel Of Christ and to witness the conversion of an already regenerated soul and is really THE MESSAGE itself what make any pitiful preacher beautiful .......
...and none of my brothers in this 'blog' are against evangelism, we all endorse very much but we just make sure that at the end of the day the honor goes to the one who really deserves it!!
...and we like to sing 'Amazing Grace' and not 'Amazing Graceful Preacher"....... because we all know that God can raise up Abraham's descendant from rocks if He pleases ... right?
Sing F Lau
Hi Fran, if you have taken that passage to prove gospel CONVERSION, then you are saying what Apostle Paul is saying.
BUT, if you intend to use Romans 10:14-15 to prove gospel REGENERATION, then you had better look at the passage and answer some honest questions for us.
I hope you are aware of the VAST distinction between REGENERATION and CONVERSION.
Here they are.
1. Who does Apostle Paul have in view?
- who are they that can call on the Lord? Sinners still dead in their sins, or those that ARE ALREADY SAVED by God?
- who are they that can call on the Lord and believe in Him? Sinners still dead in their sins, or those that ARE ALREADY SAVED by God?
- just who are they who can hear the gospel, call on the Lord and believe in him? Who have ears to hear the things of the Spirit of God? Sinners still dead in their sins, or those that ARE ALREADY SAVED by God?
Is Apostle Paul establishing the necessity of the gospel ministry in the CONVERSION of God's children to the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ their Redeemer, or is he establishing the necessity of the gospel ministry in the regeneration of the elect dead in sins and trespasses?
With which do the rhetorical questions of Apostle Paul make sense? And with which do the questions of Apostle Paul make complete NONSENSE?
" For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
Sing F Lau
Gospel regeneration is obviously a lie. Here is another reason:
Consider this PLAIN declaration concerning the task of the gospel ministry.
When the Lord Jesus was restoring Peter to his office and work, He reminded Peter his specific work in... plain and repeated term:
"...Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs... Feed my sheep... Feed my sheep."
If that is the work of Apostle Peter, that is also the SAME work of all the other apostles, and those sent by Christ for the gospel ministry.
Does anything more need to be said? There are lambs and sheep of Christ... all found and saved by Christ Himself. They need to be fed... nourished... taught to observe whatsoever Christ has commanded His lambs and sheep.
Why are folks so prejudiced and blinded by their fanciful notions?
Isn't the work of feeding the lambs and sheep of Christ a great and glorious and honorable enough calling?
Must they shamelessly claim more than what they are called to do? If you are called to the specific task of feeding Christ's lambs and sheep, then why do you UNBLUSHINGLY and BAREFACEDLY insist that you are called to the work of LAMBING them? Have you not made yourself a USURPER?
Christ did not say to Peter, "Lamb my lambs and sheep!" But that's what new school Calvinists sincerely believe what Christ said to them, and sent them to do!
Sing F Lau
Gospel regeneration is obviously a lie. Here is another reason:
Consider this PLAIN declaration concerning the task of the great commission:
"19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son,... and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."
The Lord Jesus Christ commissioned His Apostles, sending them out to TEACH... TEACH... TEACH!
And just who were they sent forth to teach? Did Christ send them out to teach those dead in trespasses and sins, so that they may be regenerated, and believe?
OR did Christ send them out to teach the glorious gospel truth to those whom God has saved by His work of redemption?
Did Christ send them out to teach natural who cannot discern the things of the Spirit of God, or to teach those whom the Spirit of God has regenerated the spiritual things of the gospel?
"Teach my children in all nations" is most definitely very different from "help me produce my children in every nation."
Disciples can only be made out of God's children that are already there by God's own free and sovereign work of redemption.
Patron and think in some erroneous translations we read: ' go and "make" disciples.'... and then the reader gets really excited with the word "make"....
Sing F Lau
Disciples can only be made out of the living!
Whoever goes about making disciples out of those that are dead!
Many readers are addicted to SOUND-BYTES, thus lack of SENSE CELLS!
Patron
Sing you be surprised how successful some ministries in USA are with dead souls discipleship movement, this is even worst than reformers teaching, these ones think the true gospel of Christ is way to irrelevant to make disciples or too irrelevant to keep them inside the 'churchy faith', so now they trust in secular wisdom, marketing, and psychology to make these dead souls move around and do something for Christ. Almost nobody talks and teach about what Christ has done 2000 years ago.... they believe The Gospel is only good for conversion.... after that we need to go on things more relevant
Christenson
God is the one that harvests. We merely scatter seeds. Yes, God could do it on His own but we are privileged to be the ones to scatter the seeds. It is none of our business where God harvests souls. It is not to our credit who accepts the message. God is glorified no matter what the end result is.
Paul went all around preaching and at the end of the day he said there was no blood on his hands. He ran the race faithfully. He encouraged his Christians to follow his example.
Acts 22:12-16
12"A man named Ananias came to see me. He was a devout observer of the law and highly respected by all the Jews living there. 13He stood beside me and said, 'Brother Saul, receive your sight!' And at that very moment I was able to see him.
14"Then he said: 'The God of our fathers has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15You will be his witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.'
Pastor Lau, I have been to Malaysia. Beautiful country and we have some lovely Christian friends from there!!
Christenson
" For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he ...know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
It is only the work of the Holy Spirit that opens the eyes to the truth. God calls us to share the message, He does the rest. There are many mysteries in the Bible that we can't understand this side of heaven. We are not God.
Patron
Amen Fran! we are not God! That's why pastor Sing labor to help us understand a few core teachings that God has appointed for our rational learning as mere creatures.
Sing F Lau
Hi Fran, visit Penang the next time you visit Malaysia again.
"God is the one that harvests. We merely scatter seeds. Yes, God could do it on His own but we are privileged to be the ones to scatter the seeds. It is none of our business w...here God harvests souls. It is not to our credit who accepts the message. God is glorified no matter what the end result is."
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In these days of rampant woolliness, it helps to be more precise.
God is the one that harvests - is only true IF - IF - IF you meant He ALONE make men fit for eternal glory. He does not need men to help Him in that. He is the Lord of the harvest - He ALONE produces the harvest, He alone owns them, He alone made them perfectly fitted for eternal glory by His free and sovereign grace shown to them - WITHOUT any assistance from any preacher.
But He sends out laborers to gather His CHILDREN (the elect that He has already effectually called to grace and salvation, and fitted for eternal glory) into NT churches. This work God DOES NOT do Himself, but delegated to His church... He ordained the gospel ministry for that. He commands called servants to do such work.
Mt 9:37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few; 38 Pray ye, therefore, the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.
PLEASE NOTE the plain and simple facts:
The harvest is ALREADY there. The laborers have nothing to do with the production of the what needed to be harvested. The Lord of the harvest Himself brought the harvest in being by His own grace and power. The laborers are sent out to GATHER THEM - not to gather them into heaven, BUT to gather them into NT churches.
PRODUCTION of harvest and the GATHERING IN of the same are very different!
Scattering the seed (the gospel) is the means appointed to gather into NT churches those God has ALREADY made perfectly fit for eternal glory by His free and sovereign grace.
New school Calvinists insist they are indispensable in helping God to produce the harvest - i.e gospel regeneration.
They preach ANOTHER gospel.
Sing F Lau
Fran@ It is only the work of the Holy Spirit that opens the eyes to the truth. God calls us to share the message, He does the rest. There are many mysteries in the Bible that we can't understand on this side of heaven. We are not God.
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Your words, "He does the rest" give me the distinct impression that unless preachers do the first major part, God does not, and can not begin to do anything, and only after the preacher has do his major part, then God is able to begin to do the rest. I may be wrong, but with the lie of gospel regeneration so rampant, so you will excuse me!
The truth is, God has done the necessary and most important part, and get the preacher to do the rest. God, by His own free grace, Has effectually called an elect out of his state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation... making him fit for eternal glory. It is such God sends the preachers to bring the good news. The gospel is relevant ONLY to those whom God has bestowed eternal salvation.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
If all Scriptures is profitable, there is no mysteries. Any mystery is no good whatsoever for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
We are not God, that's true, but God has spoken to His children in order to be understood, not to confuse or mystify them. It is an idea I don't buy!
Sing F Lau
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
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Preaching of the gospel is INDEED intended for them that ARE SAVED already by the free and sovereign grace of G...od.
It is precisely there are those that ARE SAVED out there by God's free and sovereign grace, that preachers are sent forth to preach the gospel to gather such into NT churches.
ONLY those whom God has gathered FOR heaven can be gathered by the gospel into NT churches.
Of course modern preachers can use all their gimmicks and false gospels to gather goats into their churches.
Beckett
As we are given ears to hear in regeneration by the Holy Spirit, would it then be correct do you think to say that the preaching of the Gospel, the preaching of the cross to those already saved 'shows' or 'reveals' to us the power of God in all His works?
Sing F Lau
A child of God (a regenerated elect) is indwelt by the Spirit of God, who works all saving graces in the heart. These graces are drawn forth, made manifest, and enhanced and strengthened by the ministry of the gospel.
The grace of faith is manifested as believing and resting in Christ and His righteousness for salvation.
The gospel ministry BRINGS TO LIGHT life and immortality that is ALREADY in the child of God, by the free grace of God. You can only bring to light what is already there in them that are saved.
2:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
Believeing 'shows' or 'reveals' the possession of eternal life already bestowed by God's free grace, the power of God in His redeeming His people through Jesus Christ!
Beckett
I agree wholeheartedly with all of the above. You have said it certainly much better than I. I often have a hard time getting the right words put to the thoughts I am having, but I usually keep trying. It is such a good way to learn to speak the truth with right words.
I was thinking of the verse that the Gospel Regenerist loves to use Romans 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation for every one that believeth; to the Jew first and also to the Greek".
I'm thinking that the gospel regenerist believes that the knowledge of the Gospel itself is what regenerates and therefore is the power, so to them one cannot be regenerate until they know in full the Gospel. I was simply turning that thought around thinking that the Gospel is what 'reveals' or 'shows' to us the power of God because it is not the power of itself.
I think you have said the same thing above but in better format! Correct me please where my thinking might be different than yours.
Thanks for your patience.
Sing F Lau
It is a thing to be marveled at that God enables His children to express the same truth in many different ways... just goes to show the richness of His truth.
Let me give an illustration. The gospel is likened to a birth certificate... it is remotely related to the birth it records in any instrumental sense. However, it sheds great light on what has transpired to the man whose birth it records! Who brought about his new birth, how it was accomplished, On what basis it was accomplished, what is the effects of the birth, etc, etc.
Think about it! May our Lord bless you richly. Enjoy learning together.
Page
No gospel regeneration! all Spirit regeneration
Beckett
Thank you Sing, perfect illustration!
Marks
Just as the priests of the OT were to bear the Ark of the Covenant[representing Christ's redeeming works] so too, the preachers, of the NT, are sent by God to announce to the world The Gospel of Christ's redeeming work.
"But it is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light THROUGH [Greek word 'dee-ah' denoting the channel of an act] the Gospel." 2Tim1:10
The Gospel is the channel through which He brings salvation to His elect.
2Thes 2:14 "Whereunto He called you by[through] our Gospel, to the obtaining[Greek=per-ee-poy'ay-sis= the act of accquisition] of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Rom1:1 "Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the Gospel of God."
Eze 37:10 "So I prophesied[preached] as He commanded me, and the *breath came into them, and they lived*, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army."
Then, of course, there is Pentecost[fiftieth=Jubilee, or Passover], Acts2, where the mighty[bringing forth] rushing wind filled the house... and there appeared unto them cloven tongues, and it sat upon each of them, and they all heard in their own language. This is the beginning of the Gospel going forth with power; and in verse 4, "And they were filled with the Holy Ghost."
God chose the foolishness of preaching to save those that believe. 1Cor1:21
Sing F Lau
Marks, explain this statement please.
"The Gospel is the channel through which He brings salvation to His elect."
How does your statement explain this passage ""But it is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath... abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light THROUGH [Greek word= dee-ah'=denoting the channel of an act] the Gospel." 2Tim1:10"
How, or in what sense, does the gospel BRINGS TO LIGHT life and immortality?
I just want to make sure I understand you!
Marks
"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water[Gospel] and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."John 3:5
This is throughout the Bible, it is the means that the Spirit works through.
"It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the Words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are Life. But there are some of you that believe not." John6:63
I don't pretend I understand the mystery of the Gospel, but we can't deny what His word clearly speaks.
" Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Rom16:25
Sing F Lau
Marks, I am still at a loss what you meant "the gospel is the channel through which He brings salvation to His elect" EXPLAINS the passage "But it is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath... abolished death..., and hath brought life and immortality to light THROUGH [Greek word= dee-ah'=denoting the channel of an act] the Gospel." 2Tim1:10
I fear you are a gospel regenerationist still.
I am a gospel conversionist (is there such a word?).
Anyway, let me explain how I understand the gospel is the instrument that brings to light life and immortality. To bring something to light, that something already exists and it is to make it manifest, to disclose it.
Supposing you came to a dark room, and turn on the light, and you see all the furniture in the room. Your action of turning on the light BRING TO LIGHT, MAKE MANIFEST the furniture that is ALREADY there in the room. That's simple enough to understand.
But there are VERY MANY deluded people who will insist that it is their act of switching on the light that brings the furniture into the EMPTY room!
And there are more deluded preachers who believe that their preaching the gospel is the channel through which God brings life and immortality into sinners dead in trespasses and sins!
You see, God, by His own free and sovereign grace, and based on the eternal redemption accomplished by His Son Jesus Christ, regenerates the elect by His Spirit. All these is completely independent of the gospel ministry.
This life and immortality freely bestowed to His elect are brought to light through the gospel ministry. God's children in the midst of the multitudes who hear the gospel will believe the glorious good news of their salvation by God's free grace. Their believing EVIDENCES life and immortality in them by God's free grace.
I liken gospel preaching to holding a strong torchlight at my hearers. When it shines upon a child of God (an elect that has been given life and immortality), a shadow call faith shall be cast! That shadow EVIDENCES, MAKES MANIFEST life and immortality!
I hope you understand what I say. Whether you agree or not, it is irrelevant.
One piece of advice: when you quote Scriptures, please state what they mean... otherwise no one knows what you intend to say! Very different ideas are derived from the same passage by different people!
Marks
Sing Also I would like to address your statement concerning the verse, "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it *is* [es-tee= verb in present indicative form, denoting a continuous kind if action] the power of God."1Co1:18.
Clearly, it is in a different context that Paul is speaking here, saying to those who already believe; the Gospel *continues* to be the power of God. That is why we need to be under the regular hearing of faithful preachers, sent by God.
Marks
Sing I am not a Gospel regenerist, as I have stated, the Spirit quickeneth, but the Scriptures clearly state that the Gospel must be present. This does not bring man into the equation as having any part if the effectual power, they are simply a vessel that God uses.
Sing F Lau
@Marks, a gospel regenerationist is one who believes that the gospel preaching is the necessary instrument the Holy Spirit uses to regenerate a sinner dead in trespasses and sin. So, in my understanding, your view qualifies you as a typical gospel regenerationist. A gospel regeneration DOES NOT believe that the gospel regenerates. He believes that the Holy Spirit regenerates... BUT He regenerates ONLY by the instrument of the gospel ministry.
The Scriptures does clearly state that the gospel preaching must be present... must be present to nourish the children of God... NOT NOT NOT to help in the regeneration of the elect who were dead in trespasses and sins.
However much a gospel regenerationist wants to deny it, he makes himself INDISPENSABLE in the Spirit's work of regeneration. The Holy Spirit is dependent upon the instrumentality of the preached word to regenerate the dead elect.
It is very religious and pious to say, they are simply vessels that God uses when in fact the Spirit's work of regeneration is conditioned upon the activities of these preachers.
If these preachers see themselves as vessels God uses to FEED and NURTURE His children, then it would have been true and godly.
No, gospel regenerations are USURPERS! They are like midwives who shamelessly claim that they TOO have a vital role in the conception of the lives they helped deliver!
Sing F Lau
@Marks "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it *is* [es-tee= verb in present indicative form, denoting a continuous kind if action] the power of God."1Co1:18.
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Thanks for telling us your understanding. That is helpful.
I believe Apostle Paul is making a universal statement of truth, the present tense form of the whole statement confirms that. Present indicative presents an indicative statement of fact that is always true in every situation.
The gospel is ALWAYS foolishness to the perishing ones.
The same gospel is always the good news about the power of God in salvation to them that ARE SAVED (present passive middle participles).
The gospel comes to them that ARE SAVED... they will hear and believing it as the good news of God's power in saving them.
It is not the gospel that comes to them that are lost, and the Spirit uses it to regenerate them, and they believed, and got saved!
The gospel brings to light the life and immortality in them that ARE SAVED.
Marks
@Sing Forgive me for not knowing all these terms. I'm a stay-at-home mom who reads her Bible and listens to the Gospel preached faithfully (as often as I can).
This is what the Scriptures say; that one must be born of water [Gospel] and the Spirit. How does that usurp authority if God sends forth preachers to preach this "powerful" Gospel? It is the Gospel that has power, not sinful preachers. When Aaron and his sons[priests] were used by God to enter into the Holy place on behalf of the congregation, how is this different? Would you say they were usurping God's authority? The priests were still sinful men[they had meat offerings twice daily for themselves] but God used them as instruments to "bring forth the Law".
In Hebrews7:11-12, it talks about a change in the priesthood. The change was from the Levitical priests bringing forth the Law, to the NT preachers [sent by God] to bring forth Christ in The Gospel.
Marks
@ Sing I am continuing to study this subject. I only want the Truth, as that is what is honoring to God. Let me get back to you about this. Thanks....
Sing F Lau
@Marks, a stay-at-home mom who reads her Bible is a RARE species today. This world would be a far better and happier place if more Christian moms hold their forts. May the Lord bless you richly for being faithful to your calling. Take courage too that a mom who reads her Bible is ALSO capable of helping servants of God to understand the word of God more completely. Remember how Priscilla helped great Apollos!
You asked, "How does that usurp authority if God sends forth preachers to preach this "powerful" Gospel? "
First please take note that the gospel is a message. The gospel (lower case 'g'. Upper case 'g" refers to one of the four "Gospel" in the NT Scriptures) is the good news of what God has done to save His people. The gospel declares the great power of God in saving His people through His Son Jesus Christ, and applied to individual elect by the Holy Spirit.
The gospel, being the good news. has NO POWER in itself to save. It does declare the power of God in saving His people. Those that ARE SAVED (already regenerated by the Spirit of God) will hear the gospel and perceive it as a message declaring the POWER of God...
Then permit me to answer your question by using an illustration. Supposing you are a midwife. And you were sent to a home to help deliver a child. That's your calling and mission. You went and do your work and your mission was accomplished. Bless the Lord.
The problem arises when you insist on claiming that you were sent to assist in the conception of the life that you help delivered. And every gospel regenerationist insists on claiming this: they are instrumental in the regeneration of dead sinners by the Holy Spirit. SCANDALOUS usurpation!
Similarly, another illustration:
Supposing a man FREELY credited a $1b to your account and clear ALL your debt too while you were condemned and declared bankrupt. And someone brought the good news to you. And you believed the good news of the FREE benevolent act and believing you went to the bank to draw on the money.
It would be SCANDALOUS and TREACHEROUS of you to claim that it is your believing the good news (here 'good news' would have to be some kind of 'offer' instead of something that has already happened!) and going to the bank that caused the gift to be freely credited to your account!
Yet so many insist that... they are justified by God through their faith, I.E. that God imputed Christ's righteousness to them because/when they believe!
The truth is: your believing EVIDENCES your justified state! Faith is the instrument to EVIDENCE and MANIFEST your justified state by God's free grace! Hardly any Calvinist understands this distinction and basic truth!
May our Lord grant us understanding.
Marks
@Sing First of all, thank you for your kind words. I am thankful for an opportunity to witness the gospel at any time. I have been searching the scriptures to try to find truth in this matter. It is very important to understand that *...the gospel message * is the running theme throughout the Bible and does represent the power of God unto salvation.
In Acts 8, where there is the conversion of a religious man from Ethiopia. In verse 26 it says, " And the angel[messenger] of the Lord spake to Phillip, saying, Arise and go... And he arose and went..." Acts 8:27. In verse 29, "Then the Spirit said to Phillip to go near and join thyself to this chariot" Phillip ran to him and hears him reading the prophet Isaiah and asks him if he understands what he is reading. And he says, "How can I, except some man should guide me?"
It is very important to look at the passage of scripture he was reading. "He was led as a sheep to the slaughter[Hebrew word= sfag-ay'=meaning sacrifice]." It continues.."In his humiliation [being made low] his judgment was taken away..." This passage was about salvation.
It proceeds in verse 35, "Then Phillip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus."
He was sent to preach the gospel to this chosen man of God. He goes on to ask Phillip if he can be baptized and Phillip answers and says that if he "believes with all thine heart, he may". When the Ethiopian comes up out of the water, the Spirit caught Phillip away and he saw him no more and the Ethiopian went on his way rejoicing.
Another example is in Acts9:, we have the conversion of Saul on the road to Damascus. Christ appears to him which leaves him in a state of blindness. He is fasting and praying for three days. In verse 10, God spoke to Ananias in a vision and said for him to arise and go...to one called Saul. And Ananias went and entered into the house and laid his hands on Saul[acting as a priest] and preached the message of Jesus to Saul, "so that thou mightest receive thy sight and be filled with the Holy Ghost." Acts9:18 In verse 18, it says, "And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received his sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized."
Your example of a midwife being instrumental was applicable until you said that the midwife claimed that it was from his power. No man sent of God will ever claim anything more than being used as an instrument of God. When Peter and John were performing miracles [pointing to salvation] and the people started looking at them, they would immediately say, "Why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness...."
I don't see how you can refute the idea that God sends men to preach His gospel to His elect chosen vessels, and somehow[I don't claim I understand how this exactly works] uses this gospel[water] and the Spirit to quicken these "dead stones",as it were. "Ye also, as lively[literally alive] stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ." 1 Pet 2:5
Sing F Lau
@Marks - learn the different between regeneration and conversion. A biblicaldistinction is the essence of sound theology.
Regeneration is without means.
Conversion is through the preaching of the gospel. Faith cometh by hearing.
If you can't distinguish the difference between a man fathering a child in his wife, and the mid-wife assisting in delivering that life, you will not be able to distinguish the difference between the Spirit's immediate and direct work of regeneration, and the preacher's work of converting God's children (elect already regenerated) to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I put to you that the eunuch was regenerated LONG before Philip was sent to convert him to the gospel truth. And the same goes for Ananias with respect to Paul.
You said "I don't see how you can refute the idea that God sends men to preach His gospel to His elect chosen vessels,"
You still don't get the point! The point is not WHETHER God sends men to preach His gospel to His elect chosen vessels.
The ISSUE is WHAT does God send His men to do - you say, to preach the gospel. I say a hearty AMEN to that... but what is the purpose of preaching the gospel? Is it because it is a necessary instrument/means to enable God to regenerate the dead, or is it to convert His children (regenerated immediately and directly by the Holy Spirit without the preachers involvement)?
So get the exact issue under consideration.
Is the midwife instrumental in the conception of that life she delivered or not, or instrumental in delivering the life that already exists WITHOUT her role whatsoever?
If you still don't understand the issue, I say with Paul, "And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home." May the Lord bless you to understand the issue.
Sing F Lau
The distinction between Regeneration and Conversion
There is a very helpful one-page article here: http://letgodbetrue.com/
Scroll down to the page and you will see the article. This website is a gold mine! Bring your truck, gloves, and shovel... and start shoveling! Here is the short article:
REGENERATION AND CONVERSION
Regeneration and conversion are Bible words. Both words identify a spiritual work in the child of God. However, they do not refer to the same thing.
REGENERATION
Regeneration is wholly of God. It is the Holy Spirit’s quickening work whereby spiritual life is given to the sinner “by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost” (Tit 3:5). The word comes from “re” meaning “again” and “generate” meaning “to beget.” Jesus identified this work of God as being “born again” (John 3:3). The Bible is emphatic that God “of his own will begat” us (Jam 1:18), even as Jesus claimed He “quickeneth whom He will” (John 5:21).
Eternal life, i.e., spiritual life, is God’s sovereign gift bestowed in regeneration. While invisible to men, this life is demonstrated by man’s response in conversion. Note especially the absence in Scripture of even one command for a sinner to seek regeneration.
CONVERSION
Conversion is the response of the regenerated child of God to his Heavenly Father’s will and commandments. The word means to “turn” or “turn about.” Thus it was foretold of John the Baptist’s ministry, “and many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God” (Lu 1:16). Those John turned are declared to be already related to “the Lord their God” but needed to turn about and obey Him.
Jesus describes the Apostle Peter’s denial and recovery by saying, “when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren” (Lu 22:32). James explains the departure of a Christian brother from the truth can be corrected if another “converteth the sinner from the error of his way” (Jam 5:20).
Numerous exhortations and commandments are addressed to the saved, i.e., regenerated children of God, calling them from sin, error and ignorance to righteousness, truth and joyful assurance in fellowship with God (1 John 1:3, 7-9). A person’s conversion is usually in proportion to his understanding of and obedience to Bible truth.
REGENERATION CONTRASTED WITH CONVERSION
While regeneration is a once-for-all event, conversion will occur in steps depending upon one learning to follow God’s revealed will.
REGENERATION CONVERSION
God’s work Man’s response
Sovereignly given Conditional
Eternal life Fellowship
One time Repeated
Inward Work Outward evidence
Complete at once Partial in steps
Marks
@Sing The two examples were definitely examples of regeneration. How can you dispute the fact that after Ananias preached to Saul, the Holy Spirit entered him. It seems that you have an idea in your mind and you won't listen to what the scriptures are saying. Read Joshua 6, about the fall of Jericho. I have been studying this and it is a picture of one of God's elect being saved.
"By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days."Heb11:30
It's been a good conversation, Sing, but I can see that we don't see the same things in the scriptures. Take care...
Sing F Lau
@ By the two examples, I believe you refer to the eunuch and Paul.
So, you are saying that the eunuch was an UN-regenerated man, a man still dead in trespasses and sin and a man still dead in trespasses and sins would travel all the way from Ethiopia to Jerusalem to worship the God of Israel? Hmmm!
So you are also saying that Paul was still an UN-regenerated man, a man still dead in trespasses and sins... and a man still dead in trespasses and sins would obey the Lord Jesus Christ, "And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do."
I think you have confused REGENERATION and CONVERSION!
If you still don't understand the issue, I say with Paul, "And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home."
Marks
@Sing Yes, this is exactly what the scriptures are saying. Do you realize how few in all of Israel were saved? Only a remnant, the rest died in unbelief in the wilderness. They were very religious but never trusted Christ. I was very religious (works oriented) for 5 years before God opened my eyes to the rest we have in Christ alone. People will cry out to God, for their own gain in this life, and then forget Him in a year or two. I've seen it in people I know. Very sad to witness, but many serve Him only for their "belly".
Sing F Lau
Thanks Marks. So it is your belief that all those that died in the wilderness and failed to enter the promised land ALL WENT TO HELL!
Thanks again Cindy! "but I can see that we don't see the same things in the scriptures. Take care..."
Marks
@Sing please do not twist my words, I did not say they ALL died in unbelief, but there were a great number.
"Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the LORD, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you: Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,
Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun." Num14:28
Sing F Lau
@Marks, now you accuse me of twisting you words!
You wrote these exact words. Here they are,
" Yes, this is exactly what the scriptures are saying. Do you realize how few in all of Israel were saved? Only a remnant, the rest died in unbelief in the wilderness."
=======
You asked, "Do you realize how few in all of Israel were saved?"
And you answered your own question: "Only a remnant, the rest died in unbelief in the wilderness."
These words PLAINLY means:
- Only a remnant were saved.
- The rest were not saved, and they died in unbelief in the wilderness.
If words have meaning, that's exactly what you have said. You can retract them, or admit that you haven't expressed yourself well... but saying I twist your words is a wee bit shameful!
You asked, "Do you realize how few in all of Israel were saved?"
I inquire, "SAVED from what"? And what prevented them from being saved.
Please learn the distinction between regeneration and conversion before you continue!
Marks
You are no longer being reasonable. There was a remnant saved, that is what the Bible says. They didn't ALL die in unbelief, as you claimed I said.
Sing F Lau
Marks, there was a remnant saved INDEED... but that remnant, according to your own words, entered the promised land. "THE REST DIED IN THE WILDERNESS" - your words.
You asked, "Do you realize how few in all of Israel were saved?"
And you answered your own question: "Only a remnant, the rest died in unbelief in the wilderness."
So ONLY a small remnant was saved. This remnant entered the promised land. ALL the rest died in unbelief in the wilderness... and according to your belief, all these ended up in hell.
Now, you say. They didn't ALL die in unbelief. Who didn't ALL die in unbelief? Are you now saying that SOME of the remnant DID die in unbelief?
You accused me of twisting your words, then you say I am no longer reasonable.
Have you learned from your husband the difference between regeneration and conversion yet, the difference between his act of fathering a child in you and the mid-wife act of delivering that child he fathered in you. (Please note that I am not being rude... I did say, Please learn the distinction between regeneration and conversion before you continue!
