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| Oh Calvin dear, you are so confused. Mama have said so many times, she freely serves pure milk only! But chocolate milk is manufactured and defiled with additives. |
Calvinists are confused, and obtuse too - said without apology.
Read the reasons to substantiate the charge.
"Faith thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification; yet it is not alone in the person justified, but ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love." 1689.11.2
They read this and conclude that their faith is the mean to get them justified by God. Nothing can be further from the truth.
An intelligent and confident Calvinist declares,
"The justification by God's free grace is the justification by the believing act of God's children. These are not two different justifications. That is the justification that Paul is talking about in Romans 3, the justification he is talking about in Romans 4, the justification he is talking about in Romans 5, and the justification he is talking about in Romans 8. It's also the justification spoken of in Philippians 3 and in Galatians. The summary in the Westminster Shorter Catechism is a sufficient description of the Biblical doctrine."
Hodges
They try to do with faith what some try to do with the gospel, and that is making it an instrument, or 'assistant' in the New Birth. They fail to rightly divide between the EFFECTUAL call and the GOSPEL call.
Sing F Lau
There are glaring reasons to prove that they are confused, and obtuse as well, reading those plain words through their preconceived imagination.
First reason:
In the first paragraph on justification (chapter 11), it is ALREADY declared, "Those whom God effectually calleth, He also freely justifieth..."
"He also FREELY justifies." Do they read that? And if they do, do they understand that simple declaration?
What does it mean for God to justify FREELY?
And if God does INDEED justify FREELY, then what is that nonsense that the SAME justification is ALSO conditioned on faith, man's act of believing and receiving on Christ and His righteousness?
Why are they so obtuse as to not see or admit that there is a glaring contradiction between what God declares and what they have imagined?
Ro 3:24 "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."
Let God be true, and every man a liar! 'Freely' excludes everything on man's part for that same justification.
Sing F Lau
Second reason:
In the first paragraph on justification (chapter 11), it is ALREADY declared, "Those whom God effectually calleth, He also freely justifieth..."
WHY the words 'He also'? Here's the explanation.
In chapter 10, effectually calling is defined like this: "Those whom God hath predestined unto life, He is pleased in His appointed and accepted time, effectually to call,(1) by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ."
The effectual call is the calling of an elect, one predestinated unto eternal life before the foundation of the world, out of his natural state of sin and death to that state of grace and salvation. It is ALWAYS bring a person out of the state of sin and death to that of GRACE and SALVATION - therefore, EFFECTUAL, a calling that ALWAYS accomplished its design.
To call a person out of his state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation REQUIRES justification, regeneration and adoption - in that number and logical order.
Without these free and sovereign activities, a person cannot be brought out of his state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation.
Personal condemnation that brought death must be dealt with by justification applied personally, spiritual death must be dealt with by immediate regeneration, and alienation must be removed by adoption into God's family.
Effectual calling out of the state of sin and death is by the FREE and sovereign grace of God. "This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all forseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit"
This is PLAIN obvious, because a person in his state of sin and death CANNOT possibly do or contribute anything towards his effectual calling out of his native state of sin and death. PERIOD.
But effectual calling embraces justification, regeneration, and adoption - all of which are by God's free and sovereign grace, since the effectual calling under which they are subsumed is by God's FREE (and FREE means FREE!) and sovereign grace.
There who God effectual called, He ALSO justified, without fail.
"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
Sing F Lau
"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
With this Roman 8 passage also, the Calvinists are confused and obtuse! Why? They insisted that the justification spoken of here is none other justification by faith! This is simply not possible, not true. Why?
Note first of all that the justification spoken of here APPLIES to EVERY SINGLE ELECT, every one predestinated unto eternal life. This passage speaks of that which is true of EVERY SINGLE ELECT, and that WHICH EQUALLY true of EVERY SINGLE ELECT.
The justification here simply cannot be the justification by faith, because there are God's children who are simply incapable of faith. PERIOD.
Next, please note that the divine activities here are all by His free and sovereign graces... predestination, calling, justification and glorification are all by the free and sovereign of God. Those acted upon in these divine activities are completely passive, and those acted upon in these divine activities are EQUALLY ACTED upon - they are ALL EQUALLY predestinated, called, justified, and glorified.
Why is regeneration not mentioned? Quite simple: application of the righteousness of life in justification necessarily include the impartation of eternal life based on the righteousness of life applied personally. Justification is the justification of life!
"17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto JUSTIFICATION of LIFE."
Anything that involves human instrument is not under consideration... like the gospel call leading to conversion and justification by faith, and sanctification through the gospel ministry. Why? Because not every child of will experience these temporal things.
And those who have, they experience them to vastly different measures and degrees!
Despite these OBVIOUS facts, the Calvinists continue to insist that the passage speaks of justification by their faith!
Sing F Lau
Let's continue with the third reason: In the first paragraph on justification (chapter 11), it is ALREADY declared, "Those whom God effectually calleth, He also freely justifieth..."
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Not finished with these few words yet! Didn't you read what it declares, "Those whom God effectually calleth, He also freely JUSTIFIETH..."
It DOES NOT read, ""Those whom God effectually calleth, He also freely REGENERATES..." What does this mean? It means these:
Justification APPLIED freely by God's grace PRECEDES regeneration.
Justification EXPERIENCED by man's faith FOLLOWS regeneration.
The Calvinists are not only ignorant of the distinction between the two, they also confuse the latter for the former, and they are too obtuse to note their obvious error!
The first act of effectually calling a man out of his state sin and death is justification. Condemnation of death must be dealt with. Righteousness necessary for the justification of life must be APPLIED to an elect personally. [Righteousness of Christ was already LEGALLY IMPUTED to all elect when Christ died on the cross. EVEN SO, the sin of Adam was already LEGALLY IMPUTED to all represented by him. But what was LEGALLY IMPUTED must now be APPLIED PERSONALLY].
Justification by God the Father through the righteousness of God the Son must be applied to an elect FIRST, BEFORE God the Spirit has divine warrant to regenerate him.
Regenerating a condemned man (i.e. in his unjustified state) is as immoral as setting free a condemned criminal that has not been acquitted and pardon by the court.
Logically, the Spirit of God regenerates those whom the Father has APPLIED the righteousness of life personally. The application of the righteousness of life to a man must necessarily precede the bestowal of life to him.
Justification by God's free grace LOGICALLY PRECEDES regeneration.
This is so obvious from the Scriptures, as summarized in the 1689 BCF.
Sing F Lau
That Justification by God's free grace LOGICALLY PRECEDES regeneration is so obvious from the Scriptures, as summarized in the 1689 BCF.
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The Confession gives this plain Order in the application of eternal salvation. Please note the tight order in the sequence. Don’t despise logic. God’s word has a beautiful logic and harmony of its own. God always speaks logically to rational man made in His own image. God does not expect rational man made in His image to believe irrational and inconsistent propositions.
1689.10.1: “Those whom God hath predestined unto life, He is pleased in His appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ…”
Here is the beginning of the application of salvation, the effectual calling of each elect unto eternal life at God’s appointed and approved time. There is no exception. Every elect is effectually called out of sin and death to righteousness and eternal life at God’s appointed and accepted time in exactly the manner, even those non-sentient elect mentioned in 10.2-3.
1689.11.1: “Those whom God effectually calleth He also free justifieth…”
Here is justification applied – when the Holy Spirit, in God’s appointed and accepted time, actually applies Christ to each elect at effectual calling (1689.11.4). Justification legally secured for all His elect by Christ at the cross is applied personally at effectual calling to life. Justification is the first gracious act of God in effectually calling an elect to eternal life. Justification is the removal of the condemnation upon an elect and declaring him righteous. Removal of condemnation prepares an elect for regeneration and adoption – spiritual birth to become a child of God.
1689.12.1: “All those that are justified, God vouchsafeth to make partakers of the grace of adoption, by which they are taken into the number, and enjoy the liberties and privilege of the children of God…”
Here is adoption through regeneration; born to be children of God. Regeneration follows after the justification applied, before faith is possible. Please take careful note of this plain fact. Don’t overlook this simple fact.
All those whom God has predestinated to eternal life, He freely justifies in time; when they are ungodly, dead in sin and were children of wrath; by removing the just condemnation, and applying freely the justification of life. These He also made partakers of the grace of adoption… i.e., regenerated by His Spirit and adopted to become His children. These adopted children are indwelt by the Spirit of God, who works the saving graces of faith and repentance, along with all other saving graces.
1689.13.1: “They who are effectually called, [justified] and regenerated [and adopted] are further sanctified really and personally…”
Here is the definitive sanctification (effectually called to eternal life) making possible the further sanctification through the ministry of the word (really and personally sanctified further.) The phrase ‘are further sanctified’ presupposes the definitive once-for-all sanctification already accomplished through the effectual call. The once-for-all sanctification happened when an elect is separated from spiritual death to eternal life at effectual calling. Those who are definitively sanctified are further sanctified subjectively and experientially in the life-long further sanctification through the appointed means of grace.
1689.14.1: “The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls… is ordinarily brought into being by the ministry of the Word.”
This is the beginning of the process when the effectually called elect are further sanctified in a very real and personal way. This process of being further sanctified is initiated and maintained by the ministry of the word. This further sanctification begins at initial conversion to Christ through the gospel call, and continues throughout life. Faith is a saving grace, a fruit of salvation bestowed at effectual call.
Faith in Jesus Christ is only possible after regeneration. It is the effectual call unto life that enables an elect to answer to the gospel call unto faith. But justification (whether secured and imputed at the cross, or applied personally at effectual calling) clearly precedes regeneration – the justification to life must logically precede the actual imparting of life. Therefore faith clearly follows after the application of justification to each elect, as the Confession plainly declares.
Therefore justification applied is prior to, and therefore without faith. However, experiential or evidential justification is by faith. Faith in Christ makes manifest that God has justified the person, by His free and sovereign grace.
But the confused and obtuse Calvinists mistake the latter for the former... and remain adamant that they are not in error.
Richard Hart
The date, '1689' is confusing?
Where was the Lord's 'bride' in the 15 centuries BCF?
Was 1689 BCF another REFORM movement?
Independent Baptist minister published a book through 'Sovereign Grace Publication'. I contacted the publisher which... fully supports Ovid Need's lengthy book, 'DEATH OF THE CHURCH VICTORIOUS'.
I learned some history about men such as Darby.
Preacher Need and the publisher have views such as these being exposed by Brother Sing's post.
Preacher Need's beliefs are consistent with Calvinist propaganda. ;-)
I do not think the Lord's church ever died out at any time from the first century forward. The Lord's 'bride' has been kept alive somewhere on the globe.
The Lord's church is usually characterized as 'little flock' although we know of great numbers added to the church by the Lord's good will and purpose.
Michael Gowens is not affliated with the publisher using the same name, Sovereign Grace Publications.
Sing F Lau
The date, '1689' is confusing?
Where was the Lord's 'bride' in the 15 centuries BCF?
Was 1689 BCF another REFORM movement?
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1689 simply marked the year the particular baptists were able to publicly publish a summary of what they actually believed to be the teaching of the Bible - to save their enemies from caricaturing and misrepresenting them. They were the persecuted underdogs before that - by the RC throughout the dark ages, and after the reformation, persecuted the protestant churches.
It was the Lord's bride who put forth the BCF; it wasn't the BCF that brought forth the Lord's bride. So, the Lord's bride was there ever since the Lord constituted her.
There came a time when it is no longer adequate to say, "The Bible is our creed." Because even the devil professes the same.
Sing F Lau
Supposing a man FREELY credited a $1b to your account while you were a condemned and declared bankrupt. And someone brought the good news to you. And you believed the good news of the FREE gracious act, and by faith you went to the bank to... draw on the money.
It would be SCANDALOUS and TREACHEROUS of you to claim that your believing the good news and going to the bank caused the gift to be freely credited to your account!
Yet so many insist that... they are justified by God through their faith!
Hart
double like the account analogy
Morrow
The problem with your analogy Sing is that if the man doesn't believe the good news and never accesses his account it does him no good at all. You have always seemed to believe (to me) that conversion is completely dispensable and its only... result is to inform the elect person that he is indeed elect. If that is so then the elect are elect children of God and at the same time they are children of wrath. They are natural and spiritual at the same time. If justification is in eternity, why not regeneration? You have to admit that the "inevitability" of regeneration is demanded by your doctrine.
I think it would be good...because I am slow and need repetition in order to learn...that you would tell me again your understanding of the relationship between justification, regeneration and conversion.
Thanks ahead of time for your patience.
Please teach the child wisely.Don't let him grow up confused, and obtuse!
Morrow@The problem with your analogy:
There is no problem at all. The analogy serves to highlight ONE POINT only - the transfer PRECEDES your believing it!
Of course other details in the analogy were not given - e.g. his debt wholly paid, an...d his bankrupt status removed
Therefore, even if the man does not believe the good news (good news reports what HAS HAPPENED, not what will happen if some conditions are met!), his debt has been paid and bankrupt status has been rescinded. Those are great blessings enough. And if he does not believe the good news, he will indeed miss out some temporal benefits - he continues in his beggarly life, still thinking himself a bankrupt, etc.
Yes, conversion is COMPLETELY dispensable with respect to our ETERNAL SALVATION (i.e. in distinction to temporal salvation that God's children must work out for themselves).
If conversion is INdispensable to our eternal salvation - to our justification, regeneration and glorification - then many of God's elect will not be found in heaven.
Sing F Lau
Morrow@ If that is so....then the elect are elect children of God and at the same time they are children of wrath. They are natural and spiritual at the same time. If justification is in eternity...why not regeneration? You have to admit t...hat the "inevitability" of regeneration is demanded by your doctrine.
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I don't see ANY logic in your 'If... then..."
God's elect are not God's children UNTIL they are regenerated at some point between their conception and their last breath.
Children of wrath and children of God are MUTUALLY exclusive.
Dead and alive are mutually exclusive too. One is either dead or alive - whether physically, or spiritually.
As for justification... consider this. What aspect as you talking about? Please tell.
- Justification was decreed for all the elect in eternity.
- Justification was accomplished by the BLOOD of Jesus Christ for all the elect in time.
- Justification was APPLIED by FREE GRACE to each elect personally in time.
- Justification is EXPERIENCED by faith in Jesus Christ
- Justification will be publicly vindicated on the day of Judgment.
Yes, our sonship was also decreed in eternity. But our actual sonship through regeneration takes place in time, which is appointed by God.
Sing F Lau
Morrow@ "You have to admit that the "inevitability" of regeneration is demanded by your doctrine."
I don't understand your statement, Please explain.
Sing F Lau
Morrow @I think it would be good...because I am slow and need repetition in order to learn...that you would tell me again your understanding of the relationship between justification, regeneration and conversion.
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Brother, you ain't slow. Thou art a doctoral teacher of Israel!
OK, a skeleton outline of the relationship between justification, regeneration and conversion:
- God decreed my justification: justification by decree.
- Christ accomplished my justification: justification by His blood.
- God applied the justification to me personally: justification by God's free grace. What was LEGAL is now made personal. The righteousness of Christ become mine personally.
- Regeneration by the Spirit of God.
- Adoption, and indwelt by the Spirit of adoption. The indwelling Spirit WORKS all saving graces in the child of God. Saving graces are graces as a result of the eternal salvation bestowed upon us by God's free grace, (they are not graces that secure eternal salvation). This prepares the ground for gospel conversion... under the gospel ministry.
- Conversion: those children of God who have the gospel ministry brought to them are converted to VARIOUS DEGREES, others do not have the gospel ministry brought to them and experienced no gospel conversion, still others cannot be reached with the gospel ministry - i.e. the non-sentient children of God.
Sing F Lau
Where was I? Ya, the fourth reason! Look closely at these words again:
"Faith thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification; yet it is not alone in the person justified, but ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love."
See these words "with all OTHER saving graces"? What do these words mean?
One, all these saving graces are found IN the person justified. How did it come about? Justification, the application of the righteousness of Christ logically followed by regeneration and adoption, and the bestowal of the Spirit of adoption to dwell in the justified. It is the indwelling Spirit who works all these saving graces in the justified, INCLUDING the saving grace of faith
Two, faith (which receives and rest on Christ and His righteousness, historical faith does not do that) is ONE of the saving graces. Yes, faith is ONE of the saving graces. Do you know what that means?
The confused and obtuse say that a saving grace is a grace that saves, i.e. faith secures their justification, instead of a grace as a fruit and product of the salvation that has been bestowed, i.e justification brought about this saving grace.
Saving faith is not alone in the person justified - saving faith DOES NOT enable a condemned person to be justified, it is justification by the free grace of God that produces this and all other saving graces in the justified!
An effect of justification SIMPLY CANNOT POSSIBLY be the instrumental cause of that same justification! This is so basic - but the obtuse will not see it.
Sing F Lau
Here is the fifth reason: Look at these words: "Faith........ is the alone instrument of justification..."
These are some of the most misunderstood words in theology. The confused and obtuse insist that these words means that their believing is the alone and necessary instrument or means for them to be justified by God's free grace.
What does an instrument do? What is its function? Is it a means to manifest the presence of something, or is it a mean to obtain something? Does an instrument like a volt-meter manifest the presence of voltage in a circuit, or does it bring voltage into the circuit?
Is it not so obvious that faith, being a saving grace, a product of salvation already bestowed by God's free grace - a salvation which necessitated justification, regeneration, adoption, and the Spirit of adoption dwelling within the saved - is an instrument to manifest and reveal that same salvation???
Is it not so obvious that an activity of life is an instrument to manifest the very presence of that life? But the confused and obtuse have reversed it and insist an activity of life (of the dead?) is needed to secure that life!
Sing F Lau
The Spirit works all saving graces in the justified. But why is faith the ALONE instrument of justification? Why other saving graces are not instrument of justification?
In what sense is faith - i.e 'receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness' - the ALONE instrument of justification?
Justification by God's free grace is based solely on Christ and His righteousness. "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:" Rm 3:24.
The GROUND of our justification is Christ and his righteousness, and the faith in the same is the INSTRUMENT to EXPERIENCE and MANIFEST that prior justification by God's free grace.
Faith in Christ and His righteousness is the manifestation of the free grace justification based on Christ and His righteousness. This is elementary, if one's mind has not be poisoned and prejudiced otherwise.
All other saving graces are instrument to MANIFEST the justified/saved state of a person.
But it is faith which is the ALONE instrument for a child of God to EXPERIENCE personally his justified/saved state by the free grace of God through the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
Without faith in Jesus Christ, a child of God will not experience PERSONALLY the blessedness of his justified state by the free grace of God through the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
Abraham was a justified man in Gen 12-14. God justified him when he was still an ungodly idolater in the Ur of the Chaldean. God justifies the UNGODLY. Faith justifies the believing.
Of course, the confused and obtuse would insist that Abraham remained a condemned man (i.e. unjustified by God) until Gen 15:1-6.
He did not experience personally the blessedness of his justified state until in Gen 15:1-6, when he believed God's promise concerning the promised seed.
Sing F Lau
But why is faith the ALONE instrument of justification - the alone means for a child of God to experience the blessedness of his justified/saved state?
God has chosen to impute the believer's faith to him as the ONLY means the experience that blessedness. He will not impute other saving graces for the same purpose.
"And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness." What is counted to Abraham is his faith... his faith was counted to him to experience the blessedness of his righteousness, as the result of the free grace justification by God. There was no accounting of Christ's righteousness here. That had taken place for Abraham in Ur, many years go!
Morrow
Hi Sing, Call me obtuse...call me dense...call me a heretic...but I just do not believe that a person will be finally saved without trusting Christ. Twist me up...ask me about those who have no mind or babies...and all I can ...tell you is what I believe based on what I understand about the nature of God. I just do not b...elieve God calls men to go to the mission field, get hacked to pieces and burnt alive in order that God's people might be made more comfortable by conversion. Time is short. Eternity is very long. If you are right missions finally mean little. I respect you and one consequence of our conversation is that you make me want to pray for more light and insight into God's word. If I come to a different understanding you will be one of the first to know. God bless.
Sing F Lau
By 'finally saved' I assume that you mean enter into eternal glory. Correct me if I am wrong.
By 'trusting Christ' I assume that you mean having heard the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ and believe. Correct me if I am wrong.
May I ask, when it is declared: "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified"
Is any of those acts of God conditioned upon ANY activities of those acted upon? (Please note that the passage speaks, and applies EQUALLY to EVEY SINGLE ELECT. Don't conveniently ignore or wilfully overlook this simple and plain fact).
Is the final glorification of an elect conditioned upon anything he does?
I affirm that the temporal salvation, i.e. his spiritual well being here on earth, is conditioned upon the activities of other men and his own, in obedience to the will of God.
So many shout 'eternal salvation by God's free grace' very inconsistently... saying it is by grace alone, yet also at the same time that same salvation (eternal) conditioned upon some acts of men!
Sing F Lau
Brother Morrow, the whole thing about the nature of God with respect to conversion His children, we wrestled with it long ago when we were at the Evangelical forum.
An argument that says, the gospel conversion of every child of God is guaranteed by the very nature of God, is at best a baseless presumption, at worst contrary to biblical fact.
May I ask, how much gospel conversion in His children is guaranteed by the nature of God?
I do know certain things that are absolutely guaranteed by God towards all the elect: justification by free grace, regeneration, adoption, and glorification. In these things - all the elect are EQUALLY acted upon in the same exact manner, and to the same exact degree. All these are necessary for eternal glory.
Gospel conversion? What exactly is guaranteed by God's nature for each elect in gospel conversion?
Please tell us your thoughts.
Ming
Bro Sing, I'm having so much trouble explaining those simple sentences you wrote to people. Very frustrated with the whole series of P&R books (esp. those by the faculty of Westminster Seminary) that continue to confuse the Effectual Call w...ith the Gospel Call. They end up mixing up the whole purpose of "faith" entirely.
Really hope to meet up with you this weekend for a time of fellowship and prayer. I still have so many questions on justification. Hope you can help me with my confusion.
Ming I've been writing on Justification and the New Perspectives on Paul recently. Hope to hear your thoughts on them. http://edmundlaukm.blogspot.com/
Sing F Lau
Morrow@"I just do not believe God calls men to go to the mission field, get hacked to pieces and burnt alive in order that God's people might be made more comfortable by conversion. Time is short. Eternity is very long. If you are right missions finally mean little."
Well of course it is very humiliating for preachers to be told that ALL their zealous and earnest activities and labours of contribute NOTHING - ZERO - ZIL to the eternal salvation [salvation that is eternal in nature, not salvation that took place in eternity!] of God's children. They can go sulking their whole life, that doesn't change the fact the slight bit.
If they are not contented to acknowledge the fact that God appointed them for the temporal good, the spiritual WELL BEING, of His children here on earth, let them dream on and rob God's glory, and claim credit for themselves.
If a midwife is not contented that she played no role whatsoever in the conception of the life that she had helped delivered, but insisted she had helped in the conception of the life, then let her be deluded still. May be get herself pregnant by her husband, and let another midwife make the same claim against her!
Ming
My comments are too long to be posted here. Just quoted your statements above in my latest post and wrote my comments there. http://edmundlaukm.blogspot.com/
Sing F Lau
Morrow@ "If you are right missions finally mean little."
That's your conclusion.
1Tim 3:1 " This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work."
A good work, the Scriptures declares. And a good work can't possibly means little. A good work deals with very important issues, and means a great deal in the context for which it was designed! And the BIG issues involved and its importance are plainly stated in the Scriptures.
May I ask
- Is it little to give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins?
- Is it little to give light to God's children that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death?
- Is it little to guide the feet of God's children into the way of peace?
- Is it little make known to God's children what is the riches of the glory of this salvation, which is Christ in them, the hope of glory?
- Is it little that a servant may preach and teach that he may present every child of God complete in Christ Jesus.
I am dumbfounded that you consider the glorious work a little thing! These are no little things in the eyes of Christ! Christ did not send pastors and teachers to do little things!
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
It says 'the perfecting of the saints' - SAINTS are already there by God's free and sovereign works. Pastors and teachers work is to perfect them - bring them to spiritual maturity from the means appointed.
These are no little or unimportant matters God-sent preachers! It may be little to BIG and IMPORTANT MEN.
But they are big and momentous matters to common men like me! And I am mighty contented and honored that Christ called me to minister to some of His dear saints.
Sing F Lau
Edmond, I read your writings on NP on Paul few days ago... good to know that you are directing people back to the Scriptures itself, and away from reformed shibboleths!
Morrow
Sing, I find justified children of wrath untenable. I find justified rebels without scriptural evidence. I find justified natural men w/o the holy Spirit unthinkable. I find justified God haters unbiblical. I find justified Christ rejectors impossible. I am short on time at the moment but I will try to get back to you on some of the things you raise above.
Be obtuse no more, lad! And get your mind cleared up!Morrow, let me assure you, I don't believe any of the imaginary MONSTERS you mentioned above. Either I am a very poor communicator, or you are very lousy in drawing conclusion from what you have read. Yes, such are indeed untenable, without... scriptural evidence and unthinkable and unbiblical, and impossible.
None of the above monsters listed by is the same as those who are ALREADY justified by God's free grace but are not yet brought to faith through the gospel ministry. At least I see a VAST difference between the two. Perhaps you see them as the way you have described!
I was instructed by a old man this basic truth: distinction is the essence of sound theology... rightly dividing the word of truth is the essence of sound theology.
A justified man had the wrath upon his sins removed.
A justified man fears God and works righteousness.
A justified man is indwelt by the Spirit of God.
A justified man is no haters of God.
A justified man is NO haters of Christ if the gospel has not even been brought to him!
Take a look at Cornelius before apostle Peter was sent to him! Behold the Italian centurion and learn some lessons... that justification and regeneration preceded the gospel ministry and conversion.
It is evil and wicked to malign and slander a man as a Christ rejector when he has not even heard of the gospel of Christ!
Sing F Lau
Here is the 7th reason:
“God justifies the ungodly” (Rom 4:5). Isn't that clear enough? But the confused and obtuse stumble over this two.
God justifies His elect individually while they are still in a state of ungodliness, i.e. while they are still under the state of condemnation, in enmity against God, children of wrath, i.e. while they have no ability to believe.
But the many insist that “God justifies the believing,” i.e. God justifies His elect ONLY when they believe. They prsuppose that the elect while still under the condemnation of death, i.e. UN-justified, is able to believe in order to receive life and be justified.
Of course they would claim that the un-justified has been regenerated already, which explains their ability to believe.
They have just created a monstrosity, that those still under the condemnation of death (Un-justified) is already regenerated and is able and must to believe in order to be justified from their condemned state!
Morrow
Brother Sing, maybe you think that all the elect are regenerated from the womb...or even at conception because, if you don't believe that, then you do indeed have men walking around who have been eternally justified but are yet in a state of rebellion and all the other things I said else they are NOT children of wrath even as others.
Sing F Lau
Morrow,for you to say all the above, I can only conclude you have not UNDERSTOOD what I have been saying all along.
And I think I know where the problem lies. It is your failure or incapability to rightly understand the difference between LEGAL justification at the cross and PERSONAL justification at effectual calling. At effectual calling, what was LEGAL is made PERSONAL and VITAL to each individual elect.
Your failure or incapability or even refusal to rightly understand the difference between the LEGAL and PERSONAL extend to the LEGAL sonship purchased at the cross and PERSONAL sonship at regeneration.
As in justification, EVEN SO in sonship, there are FIVE DISTINCT phases or aspects.
Take a look at this issue here: http://pruning-deformed-branches.blogspot.com/2008/01/dazzling-multi-faceted-jewel_24.html
a. Sons by decree for all elect before time:
Eph 1:4-5 “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love, Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.”
b. Sons by legal purchase for all the elect at the cross:
Gal 4:4-5 "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.”
c. Sons by birth at effectual call:
Each elect is regenerated at God's appointed and accepted time: John 3:3-6 “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God… Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” John 1:13 "sons of God... which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." 1Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.”
d. Sons by experience through faith in Christ:
John 1:12 “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.” Rom 8:13-14 “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.”
e. Sons by the resurrection & glory: Rom 8:23-24 “And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?”
God's elect are regenerated at some point in their life, between conception and death. So let it be heard loud and clear - I DO NOT believe that all elect are regenerated from the womb or even at conception.
All the elect are personally and individually children of wrath even as the others UNTIL regenerated at God's appointed and approve time.
NOW I AM MIGHTY GLAD that you raise your objection. You are the first one to raise such objection, evidencing you are indeed thinking and studying. Honored to have a fellow student like you.
Sing F Lau
I wrote to a brother these words, in response to his comment that I entertain Brother Morrow's question with courtesy and respect.
I let him raise all the OBJECTIONS he could, and truth will answer all his objections nicely.
Then he would be ashamed of himself and conscience condemned should he choose to continue in his confusion and obtuseness.
I always welcome objections to my view... if they are VALID objections, and IF I don't have valid answers to them, I am prepared to KIV that understanding, and abandon it when necessary, i.e. convinced.
My basic premise is that God's word in inherently unified and there can no contradiction whatsoever.
Morrow
Sing...you said "God's elect are regenerated at some point in their life, between conception and death. So let it be heard loud and clear - I DO NOT believe that all elect are regenerated from the womb or even at conception.
All the elect are personally and individually children of wrath even as the others UNTIL regenerated at God's appointed and approve time."
If this is what you believe (and I don't doubt you at all when you tell me these things) then my question again is...how can you avoid the problem of an individual being born, living his life UNTIL he is effectually called, as a child of wrath and a hater of God...a natural man. If God's legal, eternal justification does not affect him until he comes under the special work of the Holy Spirit in calling and regeneration then there must be a period of time in which he is indeed a God hater and an eternally justified person at the same time.
If this is not true then please explain to me his condition...in that period of time in his life being eternally justified before God but a rebel in his unregenerated heart.
Unless regeneration is concurrent with the giving of physical life then there has to be a period of time between the declaration of his justification before God and his regeneration on earth. What condition is he in during that intermediate state?
Sing F Lau
Brother Morrow, You are the kindest man I have encountered in that you cross-examined what I do believe. No one has done it the same way you did. And your valid objections have given me opportunity to make things clearer. Many other just dismiss the whole matter and call me names but you pursued and inquired. For that, I own you as a very good brother. And I mean every word of it. You are the man, brother!
Now, coming to your inquiry. I believe the difficulty lies in your understanding of what I have said concerning our justification that was decreed by God in eternity when none ever existed. This aspect of justification, only in the mind of God concerning His elect, CLEARLY has no effect on the elect personally. In fact the elect did not even exist them. And even when they do exist, this aspect of justification has no effect upon the elect PERSONALLY whatsoever.
The reason is simply: what have been decreed by God in eternity, and legally accomplished by Christ has no effect on each elect PERSONALLY/VITALLY until it is APPLIED to each elect PERSONALLY.
Nevertheless, the Scriptures is clear that God decreed to justify His elect by Christ, and the Scriptures is also very clear that Christ accomplished the justification for His people (those given to Him by the Father). But what is a DECREED, and ACCOMPLISHED LEGAL fact by the work of Jesus Christ has to be APPLIED to each ELECT personally before it AFFECTS an elect PERSONALLY.
Please read what is summarized by our old particular baptists. They put it very neatly and precisely in 1689.11.4
"God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, (11) and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification;(12) nevertheless, they are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them.(13)"
Note those few words, "nevertheless, they are not justified PERSONALLY, UNTIL....." These words presuppose that the elect were justified in the decretal sense, and the legal sense, but NOT in the personal sense... because that justification has not been APPLIED PERSONALLY. (the non elect were never justified in the decretal sense not the legal sense - and justification will never be applied to them in the personal sense... and they will never experienced justification through faith in Jesus Christ).
If you understand this, then all your valid question about the 'intermediate state' of the elect is adequately answered.
Sing F Lau
The elects' personal condition during that 'intermediate state' is exactly what every child of Adam is in by nature.
"Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."
DECRETAL and LEGAL realities do not affect the elects' personal condition UNTIL it is APPLIED to each elect PERSONALLY.
But the decretal and legal realities cannot be denied! All stated plainly for us to believe!"
3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."
I consider it a great kindness on your part to cross-examine my feeble understanding of Scriptures. Thanks brother. I am off to bed! Wifey fuming I stay up so late (12.38am)
Morrow
Brother Sing, I thank you for helping me understand your position. Justification is a completely legal term. The elect are justified through the decree of God, the nonelect are not. The elect are bought by Christ in his work on their behalf on the cross, the nonelect have no individual, particular benefit. The elect are regenerated by the Holy Spirit and thus repent and believe the Gospel. I must agree with you...only I also believe that the elect are made aware of this by the preaching of the Gospel (and here is where we must agree to disagree) and that none of the elect will be left without this awareness...or in the lingo I am used to using...they will be convicted and brought to repentance and faith in this life. Much of what we have been talking about has to do with the thought patterns and language we use... You have been trained to think more precisely than I have and so your use of words is more exact. Thanks for the discussion.
Please apologize to you wife for me :^)
Sing F Lau
I gather from your reply above that EVERY sentient child of God will have the gospel ministry brought to him, have him converted and brought to faith in Jesus Christ. Am I right?
(The gospel ministry is intended for the sentient alone - it requires hearing and understanding and believing, all of which require rational faculty.)
Apostle Paul's ministry is described like this:
"And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ."
Those three verbs - reasoned, opening and alleging - are interesting and apt. The gospel ministry treats the hearers with dignity, that they are rational creatures and capable of being reasoned with. (of course only the regenerated can be reasoned with with spiritual things.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Apostle Paul OBVIOUSLY have the children of God in mind in his ministry - EVEN THOUGH he does not know who among the hearers are children of God.
Ali Elghoul
Sing, Calvinists are not confused. I am a Hardcore Calvinist and my theology is very solid.
Sing F Lau
Have you read the reasons I gave to substantiate the charge?
Which one of them do you consider invalid?
Go, study them first before saying anything.
Ali Elghoul
Sing, please watch your tone of voice. Calvinists have very sound doctrine.
Sing F Lau
Ali, there is no need to get defensive! I don't think the Calvinists are infallible. If you have not read the reasons I have set forth, please hold your peace! Is that reasonable? Show yourself a student of God's word, and not a Hardcore Calvinist.
(See? A typical confused and obtuse Calvinist... he cannot handle issues set before him! He does not even care. He raves and rants that he is a hard core Calvinist, as though there is any virtue in that!)
Sing F Lau
The RCC teaches that justification before God is by BOTH faith and works, and not faith only. They are wrong on both accounts. Both were diseased limbs the RCC was standing upon.
If the RCC had said that BOTH faith and works are EVIDENCES of the justification by the free grace of God, they would have declared the truth of the Scriptures.
Her protestant daughters, attempted to correct the harlot's grievous error, and and rightly hacked off one of the two diseased limbs, thinking that they have purged themselves of the disease. However, they still have one disease limb with them, i.e. justification is faith only, i.e. by the believing and resting in Jesus Christ and His righteousness.
However, the Scriptures teaches that the justification of condemned sinners dead in their is solely by the FREE grace of God through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; being justified FREELY by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."
Isn't that plain enough? FREELY means without any condition on the part of the condemned person that needed to be justified by God. Now that is plain obvious too if one is not OBTUSE. A man in the state of condemnation who needs to be justified by God is UTTERLY incapable of meeting any condition, not even faith! An UN-justified man is a man STILL in the state of condemnation (i.e. unjustified) and death, and in enmity against God. How could such a man believe in order to get justified by God?
The Scriptures declares, "being justified FREELY by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." Not the slightest hint on faith, man's act of believing and resting Christ and His righteousness alone, as the means and instrument to be justified by God!
There is a justification that is by the FREE grace of God. In this justification, God deals with justly condemned sinners, He forgives them their sins, and applies Christ's righteousness to them personally, and declared them righteous. This justification is NOT CONDITIONED on anything in those that needed to be justified, NOT EVEN their act of believing - because a condemned man that needs justification is still dead in trespasses and sins.
There is a justification that is CONDITIONED upon the believing act of God's children (only God's children can believe, only those who possess eternal life is able to believe).
That which is by God's FREE grace, and that which is CONDITIONED upon man's act of believing CAN'T POSSIBLY be the same. To insist that they are the same... is plain confusion and pure obtuseness.
More reasons to come along the way...
