Messing up Romans 8:29-30 & Ordo Salutis!

Marvelous orchids - gift from Chris Athavle during his last visit

Stephen
The cross was a payment not a possibility!

Sing F Lau
Amen! The cross was a FULL and COMPLETE payment of an enormous crushing debt!
To be EXACT - for AS MANY AS God the Father has gave to Christ to redeem.
'AS MANY AS' means not one more, and not one less!

Stephen
Thank God for many as received him, TO THEM he gave power to become the sons of God.

Steffie
wait, wait, didn't Jesus say "and not for these only, but also for those who will be won by their word?"

Sing F Lau
As many as receive Him - their doing so EVIDENCE that they ARE ALREADY justified and regenerated.
But their believing in Christ secures them to right to call God their Father; i.e. right and authority to claim that they are children of God.

Stephen
again your ordo salutis is muddled. This sounds like eternal justification/hyper calvinism. Justifcation by faith actus transiens in time. Also there is an overlapping, does a person repent and believe or believe and repent? Who can tell? Does it all happen at once, the whole package? No. that some things happen in time.

The whole idea is regeneration first conversion thereafter, that is when they are justified. Faith alone is conditio sine qua non for justification. If in Romans 8:28-29 calling and glorifcation occur within time so must justification by faith alone.

Sing F Lau
StephenThe whole idea is regeneration first conversion thereafter, that is when they are justified. Faith alone is conditio sine qua non for justification. If in Romans 8:28-29 calling and glorifcation occur within time so must justification by faith alone.
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Faith alone is conditio sine qua non for EXPERIENTIAL justification - see Gen 15:1-6. No faith, no experiential justification. That's true.

The justification spoken of in Rom 8:29-30 refers to the justification that is true of every elect, EVEN the elect who died in infancy, and those mentally challenged and non-sentient. Therefore the justification here CANNOT POSSIBLY refer to justification by faith (man's act of believing) - because there are elect of God who are incapable of doing so. To deny this - there are elect of God who are incapable of of believing - i.e. is really foolish. It goes against all the reformed confessions, eg WCF/1689, etc.

The justification spoken of here is legal justification by God's FREE grace - of an UNGODLY condemned spiritually dead sinner!

Sing F Lau
Be very careful when you marshal Rom 8:28-29 to prove justification by man's faith! Be very careful... that is a very powerful passage that actually DAMNED that heresy. How so? you retort. Here's how...

Please pay careful attention and unlearn one common and popular irrational interpretation of this passage.

The first basic point to note concerning Romans 8:29-30 is that the people embraced here includes ABSOLUTELY every single elect in every link of the chain. The exact number predestinated is the same number effectually called unto eternal life through free grace justification based solely on the righteousness and blood of Jesus Christ.

Every single elect predestinated to be conformed to the image of God’s Son, God called... God justified... and God glorified… all by God’s free grace, without any human co-operation.

Not a single elect of God missed this call. So, what is this call? Is it the gospel call to faith, or effectual call unto eternal life?

This call CANNOT POSSIBLY be the gospel call to conversion - because the gospel call to conversion does not reach every single elect who are effectually called unto eternal life, see WCF/1689.10.3.

The call here is the divine effectual call unto eternal life - and this is true of every single elect, with no exception whatsoever, WCF/1689.10.1. Every elect is called unto eternal life by the direct and immediate and efficacious call of God through His Word (life-giving Logos) and Spirit. This He did by justifying them, i.e. He removed the just condemnation upon them, and imputed to them the righteousness of Christ, all by pure free grace, not on condition of faith.

One is gravely mistaken in understanding that the call in Romans 8:30 has anything to do with the gospel call. It is classic eisegesis by the misguided and confused reformed folks.

The justification spoken here is the justification applied at effectual calling unto eternal life, spoken of in 1689.11.1. This is the justification applied to every single elect. This is not the justification experienced by faith at initial conversion through the gospel call - because not all the elect will receive the gospel call and experience justification by faith.

The justification spoken of here is legal justification prior to faith; i.e. justification applied when an elect was condemned, dead and a child of wrath. This passage does not support the view of gospel call leading to justification by faith. There is no gospel call here. There is no justification by faith here. There is effectual call unto life... effectual call unto life requires the removal of condemnation, i.e. it requires the justification secured by Christ to be applied to the elect personally.

There is justification by divine free grace through the righteousness of Christ. When condemnation is removed, eternal life is bestowed; yes, eternal life is bestowed... thus guaranteeing glorification. Effectual call unto eternal life guarantees glorification regardless of the amount of salvation blessings one will experience through the ministry of the word.

There is no gospel call here. Apostle Paul did not say, “whom the preacher called God justified.” The preacher issues a gospel call to conversion. But what did Christ say about the call to life? John 5:25 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.” Please note, this does not say the ministry of the preached word, nor the preached words of Christ, it is not the voice of the preacher, but the ‘voice of the Son of God’.

How easy it is to usurp Christ in the effectual calling of the spiritually dead elect to eternal life with the preachers’ gospel call of the regenerated elect to conversion to the truth.

Conclusion:
The Bible's order of salvation is this:Salvation Purposed before the foundation of the world:
Justification Purposed by God from eternity

Salvation Accomplished at the cross:
Justification Secured by Christ at the cross

Salvation Applied at effectual calling of each elect:
Effectual calling to eternal salvation
- Justification Applied by Father
- Regeneration by the Holy Spirit
- Adoption
- Gift of the Spirit of adoption, who works all saving graces in the child of God... enabling him to believe the gospel truth.

Salvation Manifested
Gospel Calling to temporal salvation
- Justification Experienced by faith in Jesus Christ
- Justification Evidenced by faith & works.

Every elect are effectually called to grace and eternal salvation.
Not every child of God will experience conversion through the gospel call.
Of those who do, they experience conversion to vastly different degree.

'Many are called but few are chosen'

Dazzling wild ginger flower!

Taylor

The word 'foreknew' (ESV) in Romans 8:29 is a verb. A verb expresses action. Therefore, this word cannot possibly be referring to omniscience. When it says 'Those He foreknew' it is stating an action done by God. God is making a choice to foreknow people. It is not a reflection of God's perfect prescience. (As in: God knows infallibly who will choose Him) The word is relational, not predictive.

Taylor
These two verses, Romans 8:29-30, I do believe a person could write a 20 page essay about, just showing all the errors with the 'advance prescience' view. That view literally makes a mess out of the entire passage.

Plotner
It also helps to point out that there are two drawings. They like to go to the one where Christ says "I will draw ALL MEN unto me" but they ignore that in John 6:44 it is the Father doing the drawing. One is the general call of the gospel and the other is the effectual call unto salvation. This corresponds with "many are called but few are chosen" and the called ones in Romans 8 who end up glorified.

Sing F Lau
Andrew, I hope you didn't MISS one of the most important observation in Rom 8:29-30:

Every free grace divine action applies to ABSOLUTELY EVERY ELECT, in absolutely equal and same extent. No exception.

Therefore, any idea of salvation that does not fit this plain declaration is deficient and erroneous at best, at worst it is a damnable heresy!

Sing F Lau
Ross@ This corresponds with "many are called but few are chosen" and the called ones in Romans 8 who end up glorified.
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In the context of the parable in Mt 22, what does 'many' refer to, and what does 'few' refer to?
Many are called to what? What is the calling here?
Few are chosen to what? What is the choosing here?

I am asking to learn. Thanks.

Plotner
Many is the general call that goes out to all and few are the elect. In Romans 8:29-30 the call is only to the elect. The general call is Christ drawing all men unto Him and the one in Rom. 8 is the drawing of the Father in John 6.

Berge
Amen on your post Andrew

Taylor
The Arminian interpretation of Romans 8:29-30 contradicts the actual text there too. Specifically, look at 'those He called He also justified.' The Arminian is forced to concede that he cannot explain this phrase, because God had to call all sorts of other people too (who rejected by free will) that weren't justified. The Arminian also has to claim that there are some that were called and were justified, but then lost their salvation and ceased to be justified.

Sing F Lau
Andrew, the new school calvinists ARE EQUALLY MESSED UP with the Romans 8:29-30 passage!

Taylor
Please explain Sing...

Plotner
Andrew there are two callings. "Many are called but few are chosen."

Taylor
yes, the famous Matthew 22 parable. Ask yourself the question though: WHO is doing the calling in Matthew 22? Is it the call of God inwardly? Or is it the proclamation of the Gospel outwardly, done by God's servants?
Matthew 22:2-3 (ESV): "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3*and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come.*

WHO does the Gospel call come from?

Plotner
Yes, it is different than the call of Rom. 8 obviously. That's my point.

Taylor
The outward Gospel call comes from US Ali...it is a proclamation. the inward call, the *chosen* part of that comes from God.

Sing F Lau
Andrew, put on safety harness. New school calvinists are MESSED UP big time in their understanding of Romans 8:29-30.

If you are really interested read the 'article' here:
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2010/08/calvinists-are-confused-as-well-as.html

I PASTE below a section of it.
My advice: read and understand first before you start wasting your missiles . Disagree by all means, but do so intelligently. Fair advice, I think.
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"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

With this Roman 8 passage also, the Calvinists are confused and obtuse! Why? They insisted that the justification spoken of here is none other justification by faith! This is simply not possible, not true. Why?

Note first of all that the justification spoken of here APPLIES to EVERY SINGLE ELECT, every one predestinated unto eternal life. This passage speaks of that which is true of EVERY SINGLE ELECT, and that WHICH EQUALLY true of EVERY SINGLE ELECT.

The justification here simply cannot be the justification by faith, because there are God's children who are simply incapable of faith. PERIOD.

Next, please note that the divine activities here are all by His free and sovereign graces... predestination, calling, justification and glorification are all by the free and sovereign of God. Those acted upon in these divine activities are completely passive, and those acted upon in these divine activities are EQUALLY ACTED upon - they are ALL EQUALLY predestinated, called, justified, and glorified.

Why is regeneration not mentioned? Quite simple: application of the righteousness of life in justification necessarily include the impartation of eternal life based on the righteousness of life applied personally. Justification is the justification of life!

"17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto JUSTIFICATION of LIFE."

Anything that involves human instrument is not under consideration... like the gospel call leading to conversion and justification by faith, and sanctification through the gospel ministry. Why? Because not every child of will experience these temporal things.

And those who have, they experience them to vastly different measures and degrees!

Despite these OBVIOUS facts, the Calvinists continue to insist that the passage speaks of justification by their faith!

Sing F Lau
Let's continue with the third reason: In the first paragraph on justification (chapter 11), it is ALREADY declared, "Those whom God effectually calleth, He also freely justifieth..."
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Not finished with these few words yet! Didn't you read what it declares, "Those whom God effectually calleth, He also freely JUSTIFIETH..."

It DOES NOT read, ""Those whom God effectually calleth, He also freely REGENERATES..." What does this mean? It means these:

Justification APPLIED freely by God's grace PRECEDES regeneration.
Justification EXPERIENCED by man's faith FOLLOWS regeneration.

The Calvinists are not only ignorant of the distinction between the two, they also confuse the latter for the former, and they are too obtuse to note their obvious error!

The first act of effectually calling a man out of his state sin and death is justification. Condemnation of death must be dealt with. Righteousness necessary for the justification of life must be APPLIED to an elect personally. [Righteousness of Christ was already LEGALLY IMPUTED to all elect when Christ died on the cross. EVEN SO, the sin of Adam was already LEGALLY IMPUTED to all represented by him. But what was LEGALLY IMPUTED must now be APPLIED PERSONALLY].

Justification by God the Father through the righteousness of God the Son must be applied to an elect FIRST, BEFORE God the Spirit has divine warrant to regenerate him.

Regenerating a condemned man (i.e. in his unjustified state) is as immoral as setting free a condemned criminal that has not been acquitted and pardon by the court.

Logically, the Spirit of God regenerates those whom the Father has APPLIED the righteousness of life personally. The application of the righteousness of life to a man must necessarily precede the bestowal of life to him.

Justification by God's free grace LOGICALLY PRECEDES regeneration.

This is so obvious from the Scriptures, as summarized in the 1689 BCF.
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Taylor
‎"Yes, it is different than the call of Rom. 8 obviously. That's my point."

But your point doesn't follow that the atonement has to be unlimited because of that. The outward proclamation of the Gospel has to do with us being obedient, not God inwardly calling. God will regenerate people to believe of course, but the outward Gospel call is from us. How can a call from US effect Christ's work?

Plotner
I think you're mixing discussions. ????

Sing F Lau
Andrew@Taylor The outward Gospel call comes from US Ali...it is a proclamation. the inward call, the *chosen* part of that comes from God.
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So gospel call by human PRECEDES the choice by God? Hmmm?
So divine 'choosing' is conditioned upon the gospel call issued by preachers? I am just inquiring!
May I inquire, chosen from what, and to what? Fair question.

Please remember, the parable is about some facts about the kingdom of heaven. "The kingdom of heaven is like unto..."

Let us keep studying...

Taylor
Sing, I read it (quickly). Explain this then:
"Next, please note that the divine activities here are all by His free and sovereign graces... predestination, calling, justification and glorification are all by the free and sovereign of God. Those acted upon in these divine activities are completely passive, and those acted upon in these divine activities are EQUALLY ACTED upon - they are ALL EQUALLY predestinated, called, justified, and glorified."

Good point...I agree.

"Justification by God's free grace LOGICALLY PRECEDES regeneration."

What does 'those He called' refer to? Calling LOGICALLY precedes justification in this scripture, does it not?

Are you saying this?
1) Justification
2) Called
3) Regeneration

"Justification APPLIED freely by God's grace PRECEDES regeneration."

Correct me if I am wrong here Sing, but all the words in these verses are past tense...wouldn't by this logic, GLORIFICATION have to precede regeneration as well?

Taylor
‎"So gospel call by human PRECEDES the choice by God?"
Oh goodness no Sing...I'm not saying that at all.

Sing F Lau
Andrew, read it again REAL SLOWLY this time. Thanks.

Sing F Lau
Andrew: "So gospel call by human PRECEDES the choice by God?"
Oh goodness no Sing...I'm not saying that at all.
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The declaration is, "many are called but few are chosen."
The declaration is clearly indicates an order of some sort ...the calling (whatever it is) logically/ chronologically preceding the choosing (whatever it is).

You have said, "The outward Gospel call comes from US Ali...it is a proclamation. The inward call, the *chosen* part of that comes from God."

Based the the statement, I inquired, "So gospel call by human PRECEDES the choice by God?"

You say the call is the gospel call issued by human preachers... and the choosing comes from God.

Thus my inquiry: "So gospel call by human PRECEDES the choice by God?"

So, if you are not saying that, you have expressed very poorly. Now, tell us exactly what you meant by those words.

Plotner
Sing, the verse is not a chronological list of events. It's just a statement that not all the called are the chosen. The gospel goes out to all but only the elect believe unto salvation.

Sing F Lau
Ross, so please tell us what is the order of the 'call' and 'chosen'? There are two distinct things said... 'called' and 'chosen'.

If they are not simultaneous, tell us which is prior, and whether logically and or chronologically?

You have introduced a FOREIGN idea - 'the gospel goes out to ALL.' 'ALL' is very different from what the text says - 'many' and 'few'!

You have introduced another FOREIGN idea - 'elect believe unto salvation'. Are you equating that to 'few are chosen' to believe unto salvation? I am just asking.

Sing F Lau
Ross@ "It also helps to point out that there are two drawings. They like to go to the one where Christ says "I will draw ALL MEN unto me" but they ignore that in John 6:44 it is the Father doing the drawing. One is the general call of the g...ospel and the other is the effectual call unto salvation. This corresponds with "many are called but few are chosen" and the called ones in Romans 8 who end up glorified."
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Let's return to the context where the statement is used, "many are called but few are chosen."
What does Christ mean when He said "I will draw ALL MEN to me"? Who are the "ALL MEN"? What does Christ do when He HIMSELF draw "all men" to Him?

John 6:44 also speaks of the Father drawing? What is this drawing?
Are these two different and distinct drawings? Ross assumes that they are. I fear that's a big mistake!

New birth or regeneration is attributed to all the three person of the Trinity... but we don't say they are different births.

But here we say they are different callings - one general and the other effectual?

Are we saying that Christ's call of all men is general, outward and not so effectual, but the Father's is specific, inward and effectual?

I suggest both drawings are related to effectual call of the elect out of their native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation... the same call mentioned in Rom 8:30.

The drawing of Christ unto eternal life is NOT NOT NOT the same as the gospel drawing to conversion to the truth.

Just some thoughts. We still have to work out the meaning of 'many are called but few are chosen'.

Plotner
The choosing happens at foreknowledge. The calling comes sometime after birth. Your logic re the calling is faulty. In Rom. 8, all of the called end up glorified. In the other call, FEW ARE CHOSEN among the many who are called. I don't see ...how it could be any clearer. I assume by "gospel drawing to conversion to the truth" you mean the salvation of the elect. Look at the parable of the sower. The very same seed is sown among the various soils but only proves fruitful in the good soil. We know that the seed is the gospel. People who receive the gospel are those who have been born again by the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit. BTW, the Holy Spirit is the active agent in new birth so your three new birth analogy is faulty logic as well. While the trinity enters into all acts of God, there is one person of the Godhead doing the action. The Father and the Holy Spirit didn't die on the cross for example.

Sing F Lau
It is getting a little complicated... because you don't seem to get what I am trying to show - that if the calling and and choosing is not restricted to the context of the parable, then it is just plainly OUT OF CONTEXT. So, if 'chosen' is ...equated with 'choosing before foreknowledge' then it is plainly wrong! And if calling is related to gospel calling to eternal salvation it is also plainly wrong. The parable is not about getting into the kingdom of God. The parable informs us something about the kingdom of heaven - though many are called to enjoy its blessings, yet only few are chosen to enjoy it.

At least you are acknowledging a logical and chronological between 'choosing' and 'calling'.

Perhaps if I say this, it will make much sense to you. The parable of the kingdom of heaven is dealing SPECIFICALLY with God's children among the Jews. The kingdom of heaven is a term used specifically to contrast with the earthly theocratic kingdom that God's children among the Jews are so familiar with. They are called to leave it, and to enter the kingdom of heaven... leave to old covenant kingdom into the new covenant kingdom.

That 's the context of the 'many are called but few are chosen.'

Many of them are called by the gospel, but only few of them were chosen to enjoy the blessings of the gospel.

Many of God's children among the Jews are called by the gospel. (NOT ALL of them are called by the gospel call.) Though many of them are called by the gospel call, yet only few were chosen to believe and experience the blessings of the gospel.

Many of God's children among the Jews were blinded... only a remnant of God's children among the Jews were chosen to believe the gospel.

Read Romans 11...
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Plotner
So, are you saying that all of the called in the parable are elect and that the chosen are those among them who actually believe the gospel?

Taylor
I don't think he is saying that Ross.
@Sing. By the way...I think 'justified' in Rom 8:29-30 can be justification by faith once you look at other verses that talk about this. Romans 5:1 for instance, 'Since we have been justified by faith...(ESV)' The word 'justfied' is in the Aorist tense and passive voice in the Greek, indicating it is a one time act done by an outside source other than the recipient of the faith. Obviously, the outside source is God. But I know you will reject this because you hold to this:

"The justification here simply cannot be the justification by faith, because there are God's children who are simply incapable of faith. PERIOD."

I disagree. We are saved to faith. And that is our major point of disagreement.

Plotner
All of God's children have faith. That is part of the new nature. Their faith may be small and not noticeable but it is faith just the same. If you don't have the new nature you aren't a child of God.

Sing F Lau
Andrew, to clear all your CONFUSION, read this article to detox. And please read to understand, even if you do not agree.
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2009/09/therefore-as-arminians-reject-doctrine.html

Sing F Lau
All of God's children have the grace of faith worked in them by the indwelling Spirit.

This faith must be drawn forth by the ministry of the word. 'Faith cometh by hearing.' Without hearing the gospel, there would be no believing, that faith... worked in the heart is not brought to light. Without believing there would be no justification by the act of believing

There are many ASPECTS of justification - this is what you NEED TO LEARN from the Scriptures. Read the article mentioned above. Read and STUDY IT - at least understand it. And if you need to disagree, then you can disagree INTELLIGENTLY, which is good.

Not every child of God will experienced justification by their faith. But every ELECT are justified by free grace while still a condemned sinner.

You must rightly divide the word of truth.

Sing F Lau
Andrew, do this one thing
Learn the biblical truth concerning:
Your justification by the faith OF - OF - OF Christ
and
Your justification by your faith IN - IN - IN Christ.

It will help you to rid of much confusion on justification.

Why the addiction to Gospel Regeneration?

a village house with its orchard

Sing F Lau
Gospel regeneration is very attractive, as well as addictive!
It gives it adherents an aura of power and indispensability in the eternal salvation of God's elect. God is impotent to produce His children without them!
Why can't they see the simple distinction that assisting God to produce His children is a WHOLE WORLD OF DIFFERENCE from helping God in nurturing His children whom He has fathered Himself by free and sovereign grace?

Sing F Lau
And imagine the powerful and subtle hold the preachers have upon them they have "CO-FATHERED" - when they are taught that it was the preachers who were instrumental in getting them regenerated by God, i.e. brought them into ETERNAL life, they were instrumental in their new birth as children of God.

How indebted they should be to their preachers. Without their ministry, they wouldn't have been born again by the Spirit, and would have gone to hell!

Such lies would have a very powerful hold on the converts. It also gives them that subtle power to lord over the Lord's heritage!

Gowens
Br. Sing, I would that more of God's little children knew and loved these beautiful and comforting truths of God's acts as taught in His Bible. Appreciate you and your truths.

Patron
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Patron
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Romans 1:16-17

Patron
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
Romans 1:16-17

Patron
Two godly teachers, two different views...

Sing F Lau
Yoel, often 'good' teachers may actually differ in substance. Then either one of them, of both of them are in error. If they indeed differ in substance, then they both can't be right at the same time.

Sometimes they may appear to differ in expression only, and other time look at the same subject from different perspectives...

We who come later must do our own thinking, and endeavor to express in such a way that truth is presented in a most consistent and winsome manner. Even then, we are not exempt from being misunderstood and misrepresented.

All readers of what has been written have a certain level of presupposition, and this will affect to some degree what they read. a good example is Brother Trevor quoting all those passages to support his idea of the instrumentality of faith in justification before God... even though the old school calvinist authors clearly intend to express the instrumentality of faith TO MANIFEST / EVIDENCE the justified state!

Some of Gill's expressions may actually lend support to lovers of gospel regeneration!

Sing F Lau
Gospel regeneration is obviously a lie. Here is one reason:
Consider this PLAIN declaration concerning the gospel ministry, its effect upon two types of audience.

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."

This declaration informs us that the gospel preaching comes to TWO categories of people: to them that perish, and to them that ARE SAVED. These are people that are ALREADY there, and the gospel preaching comes to them.

There are them that ARE SAVED - by the free grace of God. They are already called out of their native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation in Christ Jesus - justified, regenerated and adopted, and indwelt by the Spirit of God, all ready and fitted for eternal glory. There were regenerated PRIOR to the gospel message being brought to them. The gospel preaching comes to them. To these, the gospel message speaks of the power of God in saving them.

There are also them that perish - still in their native state of sin and death. To them, the same gospel is nothing but foolishness.

Christenson
Romans 10:14-15 "How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

Patron
oh yeah Fran! always how beautiful is to know what God has already done for us in His gospel Of Christ and to witness the conversion of an already regenerated soul and is really THE MESSAGE itself what make any pitiful preacher beautiful .......

...and none of my brothers in this 'blog' are against evangelism, we all endorse very much but we just make sure that at the end of the day the honor goes to the one who really deserves it!!

...and we like to sing 'Amazing Grace' and not 'Amazing Graceful Preacher"....... because we all know that God can raise up Abraham's descendant from rocks if He pleases ... right?

Sing F Lau
Hi Fran, if you have taken that passage to prove gospel CONVERSION, then you are saying what Apostle Paul is saying.

BUT, if you intend to use Romans 10:14-15 to prove gospel REGENERATION, then you had better look at the passage and answer some honest questions for us.

I hope you are aware of the VAST distinction between REGENERATION and CONVERSION.

Here they are.
1. Who does Apostle Paul have in view?
- who are they that can call on the Lord? Sinners still dead in their sins, or those that ARE ALREADY SAVED by God?
- who are they that can call on the Lord and believe in Him? Sinners still dead in their sins, or those that ARE ALREADY SAVED by God?
- just who are they who can hear the gospel, call on the Lord and believe in him? Who have ears to hear the things of the Spirit of God? Sinners still dead in their sins, or those that ARE ALREADY SAVED by God?

Is Apostle Paul establishing the necessity of the gospel ministry in the CONVERSION of God's children to the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ their Redeemer, or is he establishing the necessity of the gospel ministry in the regeneration of the elect dead in sins and trespasses?

With which do the rhetorical questions of Apostle Paul make sense? And with which do the questions of Apostle Paul make complete NONSENSE?

" For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Sing F Lau
Gospel regeneration is obviously a lie. Here is another reason:
Consider this PLAIN declaration concerning the task of the gospel ministry.

When the Lord Jesus was restoring Peter to his office and work, He reminded Peter his specific work in... plain and repeated term:

"...Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs... Feed my sheep... Feed my sheep."

If that is the work of Apostle Peter, that is also the SAME work of all the other apostles, and those sent by Christ for the gospel ministry.

Does anything more need to be said? There are lambs and sheep of Christ... all found and saved by Christ Himself. They need to be fed... nourished... taught to observe whatsoever Christ has commanded His lambs and sheep.

Why are folks so prejudiced and blinded by their fanciful notions?

Isn't the work of feeding the lambs and sheep of Christ a great and glorious and honorable enough calling?

Must they shamelessly claim more than what they are called to do? If you are called to the specific task of feeding Christ's lambs and sheep, then why do you UNBLUSHINGLY and BAREFACEDLY insist that you are called to the work of LAMBING them? Have you not made yourself a USURPER?

Christ did not say to Peter, "Lamb my lambs and sheep!" But that's what new school Calvinists sincerely believe what Christ said to them, and sent them to do!

Sing F Lau
Gospel regeneration is obviously a lie. Here is another reason:
Consider this PLAIN declaration concerning the task of the great commission:

"19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son,... and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

The Lord Jesus Christ commissioned His Apostles, sending them out to TEACH... TEACH... TEACH!

And just who were they sent forth to teach? Did Christ send them out to teach those dead in trespasses and sins, so that they may be regenerated, and believe?

OR did Christ send them out to teach the glorious gospel truth to those whom God has saved by His work of redemption?

Did Christ send them out to teach natural who cannot discern the things of the Spirit of God, or to teach those whom the Spirit of God has regenerated the spiritual things of the gospel?

"Teach my children in all nations" is most definitely very different from "help me produce my children in every nation."

Disciples can only be made out of God's children that are already there by God's own free and sovereign work of redemption.

Patron and think in some erroneous translations we read: ' go and "make" disciples.'... and then the reader gets really excited with the word "make"....

Sing F Lau
Disciples can only be made out of the living!
Whoever goes about making disciples out of those that are dead!
Many readers are addicted to SOUND-BYTES, thus lack of SENSE CELLS!

Patron
Sing you be surprised how successful some ministries in USA are with dead souls discipleship movement, this is even worst than reformers teaching, these ones think the true gospel of Christ is way to irrelevant to make disciples or too irrelevant to keep them inside the 'churchy faith', so now they trust in secular wisdom, marketing, and psychology to make these dead souls move around and do something for Christ. Almost nobody talks and teach about what Christ has done 2000 years ago.... they believe The Gospel is only good for conversion.... after that we need to go on things more relevant

Christenson
God is the one that harvests. We merely scatter seeds. Yes, God could do it on His own but we are privileged to be the ones to scatter the seeds. It is none of our business where God harvests souls. It is not to our credit who accepts the message. God is glorified no matter what the end result is.

Paul went all around preaching and at the end of the day he said there was no blood on his hands. He ran the race faithfully. He encouraged his Christians to follow his example.

Acts 22:12-16
12"A man named Ananias came to see me. He was a devout observer of the law and highly respected by all the Jews living there. 13He stood beside me and said, 'Brother Saul, receive your sight!' And at that very moment I was able to see him.
14"Then he said: 'The God of our fathers has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15You will be his witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.'

Pastor Lau, I have been to Malaysia. Beautiful country and we have some lovely Christian friends from there!!

Christenson
‎" For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he ...know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

It is only the work of the Holy Spirit that opens the eyes to the truth. God calls us to share the message, He does the rest. There are many mysteries in the Bible that we can't understand this side of heaven. We are not God.

Patron
Amen Fran! we are not God! That's why pastor Sing labor to help us understand a few core teachings that God has appointed for our rational learning as mere creatures.

Sing F Lau
Hi Fran, visit Penang the next time you visit Malaysia again.
"God is the one that harvests. We merely scatter seeds. Yes, God could do it on His own but we are privileged to be the ones to scatter the seeds. It is none of our business w...here God harvests souls. It is not to our credit who accepts the message. God is glorified no matter what the end result is."
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In these days of rampant woolliness, it helps to be more precise.

God is the one that harvests - is only true IF - IF - IF you meant He ALONE make men fit for eternal glory. He does not need men to help Him in that. He is the Lord of the harvest - He ALONE produces the harvest, He alone owns them, He alone made them perfectly fitted for eternal glory by His free and sovereign grace shown to them - WITHOUT any assistance from any preacher.

But He sends out laborers to gather His CHILDREN (the elect that He has already effectually called to grace and salvation, and fitted for eternal glory) into NT churches. This work God DOES NOT do Himself, but delegated to His church... He ordained the gospel ministry for that. He commands called servants to do such work.

Mt 9:37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few; 38 Pray ye, therefore, the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

PLEASE NOTE the plain and simple facts:
The harvest is ALREADY there. The laborers have nothing to do with the production of the what needed to be harvested. The Lord of the harvest Himself brought the harvest in being by His own grace and power. The laborers are sent out to GATHER THEM - not to gather them into heaven, BUT to gather them into NT churches.

PRODUCTION of harvest and the GATHERING IN of the same are very different!

Scattering the seed (the gospel) is the means appointed to gather into NT churches those God has ALREADY made perfectly fit for eternal glory by His free and sovereign grace.

New school Calvinists insist they are indispensable in helping God to produce the harvest - i.e gospel regeneration.

They preach ANOTHER gospel.

Sing F Lau
Fran@ It is only the work of the Holy Spirit that opens the eyes to the truth. God calls us to share the message, He does the rest. There are many mysteries in the Bible that we can't understand on this side of heaven. We are not God.
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Your words, "He does the rest" give me the distinct impression that unless preachers do the first major part, God does not, and can not begin to do anything, and only after the preacher has do his major part, then God is able to begin to do the rest. I may be wrong, but with the lie of gospel regeneration so rampant, so you will excuse me!

The truth is, God has done the necessary and most important part, and get the preacher to do the rest. God, by His own free grace, Has effectually called an elect out of his state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation... making him fit for eternal glory. It is such God sends the preachers to bring the good news. The gospel is relevant ONLY to those whom God has bestowed eternal salvation.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

If all Scriptures is profitable, there is no mysteries. Any mystery is no good whatsoever for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

We are not God, that's true, but God has spoken to His children in order to be understood, not to confuse or mystify them. It is an idea I don't buy! . Everything God has given to us is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

Sing F Lau
‎"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
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Preaching of the gospel is INDEED intended for them that ARE SAVED already by the free and sovereign grace of G...od.

It is precisely there are those that ARE SAVED out there by God's free and sovereign grace, that preachers are sent forth to preach the gospel to gather such into NT churches.

ONLY those whom God has gathered FOR heaven can be gathered by the gospel into NT churches.

Of course modern preachers can use all their gimmicks and false gospels to gather goats into their churches.

Beckett
As we are given ears to hear in regeneration by the Holy Spirit, would it then be correct do you think to say that the preaching of the Gospel, the preaching of the cross to those already saved 'shows' or 'reveals' to us the power of God in all His works?

Sing F Lau
A child of God (a regenerated elect) is indwelt by the Spirit of God, who works all saving graces in the heart. These graces are drawn forth, made manifest, and enhanced and strengthened by the ministry of the gospel.

The grace of faith is manifested as believing and resting in Christ and His righteousness for salvation.

The gospel ministry BRINGS TO LIGHT life and immortality that is ALREADY in the child of God, by the free grace of God. You can only bring to light what is already there in them that are saved.

2:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

Believeing 'shows' or 'reveals' the possession of eternal life already bestowed by God's free grace, the power of God in His redeeming His people through Jesus Christ!

Beckett
I agree wholeheartedly with all of the above. You have said it certainly much better than I. I often have a hard time getting the right words put to the thoughts I am having, but I usually keep trying. It is such a good way to learn to speak the truth with right words.

I was thinking of the verse that the Gospel Regenerist loves to use Romans 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation for every one that believeth; to the Jew first and also to the Greek".

I'm thinking that the gospel regenerist believes that the knowledge of the Gospel itself is what regenerates and therefore is the power, so to them one cannot be regenerate until they know in full the Gospel. I was simply turning that thought around thinking that the Gospel is what 'reveals' or 'shows' to us the power of God because it is not the power of itself.

I think you have said the same thing above but in better format! Correct me please where my thinking might be different than yours.

Thanks for your patience.

Sing F Lau
It is a thing to be marveled at that God enables His children to express the same truth in many different ways... just goes to show the richness of His truth.

Let me give an illustration. The gospel is likened to a birth certificate... it is remotely related to the birth it records in any instrumental sense. However, it sheds great light on what has transpired to the man whose birth it records! Who brought about his new birth, how it was accomplished, On what basis it was accomplished, what is the effects of the birth, etc, etc.

Think about it! May our Lord bless you richly. Enjoy learning together.

Page
No gospel regeneration! all Spirit regeneration

Beckett
Thank you Sing, perfect illustration!

Marks
Just as the priests of the OT were to bear the Ark of the Covenant[representing Christ's redeeming works] so too, the preachers, of the NT, are sent by God to announce to the world The Gospel of Christ's redeeming work.
"But it is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light THROUGH [Greek word 'dee-ah' denoting the channel of an act] the Gospel." 2Tim1:10

The Gospel is the channel through which He brings salvation to His elect.
2Thes 2:14 "Whereunto He called you by[through] our Gospel, to the obtaining[Greek=per-ee-poy'ay-sis= the act of accquisition] of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Rom1:1 "Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the Gospel of God."

Eze 37:10 "So I prophesied[preached] as He commanded me, and the *breath came into them, and they lived*, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army."

Then, of course, there is Pentecost[fiftieth=Jubilee, or Passover], Acts2, where the mighty[bringing forth] rushing wind filled the house... and there appeared unto them cloven tongues, and it sat upon each of them, and they all heard in their own language. This is the beginning of the Gospel going forth with power; and in verse 4, "And they were filled with the Holy Ghost."

God chose the foolishness of preaching to save those that believe. 1Cor1:21

Sing F Lau
Marks, explain this statement please.
"The Gospel is the channel through which He brings salvation to His elect."

How does your statement explain this passage ""But it is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath... abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light THROUGH [Greek word= dee-ah'=denoting the channel of an act] the Gospel." 2Tim1:10"

How, or in what sense, does the gospel BRINGS TO LIGHT life and immortality?

I just want to make sure I understand you!

Marks
"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water[Gospel] and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."John 3:5
This is throughout the Bible, it is the means that the Spirit works through.

"It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the Words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are Life. But there are some of you that believe not." John6:63

I don't pretend I understand the mystery of the Gospel, but we can't deny what His word clearly speaks.

" Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Rom16:25

Sing F Lau
Marks, I am still at a loss what you meant "the gospel is the channel through which He brings salvation to His elect" EXPLAINS the passage "But it is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath... abolished death..., and hath brought life and immortality to light THROUGH [Greek word= dee-ah'=denoting the channel of an act] the Gospel." 2Tim1:10

I fear you are a gospel regenerationist still.
I am a gospel conversionist (is there such a word?).

Anyway, let me explain how I understand the gospel is the instrument that brings to light life and immortality. To bring something to light, that something already exists and it is to make it manifest, to disclose it.

Supposing you came to a dark room, and turn on the light, and you see all the furniture in the room. Your action of turning on the light BRING TO LIGHT, MAKE MANIFEST the furniture that is ALREADY there in the room. That's simple enough to understand.

But there are VERY MANY deluded people who will insist that it is their act of switching on the light that brings the furniture into the EMPTY room!

And there are more deluded preachers who believe that their preaching the gospel is the channel through which God brings life and immortality into sinners dead in trespasses and sins!

You see, God, by His own free and sovereign grace, and based on the eternal redemption accomplished by His Son Jesus Christ, regenerates the elect by His Spirit. All these is completely independent of the gospel ministry.

This life and immortality freely bestowed to His elect are brought to light through the gospel ministry. God's children in the midst of the multitudes who hear the gospel will believe the glorious good news of their salvation by God's free grace. Their believing EVIDENCES life and immortality in them by God's free grace.

I liken gospel preaching to holding a strong torchlight at my hearers. When it shines upon a child of God (an elect that has been given life and immortality), a shadow call faith shall be cast! That shadow EVIDENCES, MAKES MANIFEST life and immortality!

I hope you understand what I say. Whether you agree or not, it is irrelevant.

One piece of advice: when you quote Scriptures, please state what they mean... otherwise no one knows what you intend to say! Very different ideas are derived from the same passage by different people!

Marks
Sing Also I would like to address your statement concerning the verse, "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it *is* [es-tee= verb in present indicative form, denoting a continuous kind if action] the power of God."1Co1:18.
Clearly, it is in a different context that Paul is speaking here, saying to those who already believe; the Gospel *continues* to be the power of God. That is why we need to be under the regular hearing of faithful preachers, sent by God.

Marks
Sing I am not a Gospel regenerist, as I have stated, the Spirit quickeneth, but the Scriptures clearly state that the Gospel must be present. This does not bring man into the equation as having any part if the effectual power, they are simply a vessel that God uses.

Sing F Lau
‎@Marks, a gospel regenerationist is one who believes that the gospel preaching is the necessary instrument the Holy Spirit uses to regenerate a sinner dead in trespasses and sin. So, in my understanding, your view qualifies you as a typical gospel regenerationist. A gospel regeneration DOES NOT believe that the gospel regenerates. He believes that the Holy Spirit regenerates... BUT He regenerates ONLY by the instrument of the gospel ministry.

The Scriptures does clearly state that the gospel preaching must be present... must be present to nourish the children of God... NOT NOT NOT to help in the regeneration of the elect who were dead in trespasses and sins.

However much a gospel regenerationist wants to deny it, he makes himself INDISPENSABLE in the Spirit's work of regeneration. The Holy Spirit is dependent upon the instrumentality of the preached word to regenerate the dead elect.

It is very religious and pious to say, they are simply vessels that God uses when in fact the Spirit's work of regeneration is conditioned upon the activities of these preachers.

If these preachers see themselves as vessels God uses to FEED and NURTURE His children, then it would have been true and godly.

No, gospel regenerations are USURPERS! They are like midwives who shamelessly claim that they TOO have a vital role in the conception of the lives they helped deliver!

Sing F Lau
‎@Marks "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it *is* [es-tee= verb in present indicative form, denoting a continuous kind if action] the power of God."1Co1:18.
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Thanks for telling us your understanding. That is helpful.
I believe Apostle Paul is making a universal statement of truth, the present tense form of the whole statement confirms that. Present indicative presents an indicative statement of fact that is always true in every situation.

The gospel is ALWAYS foolishness to the perishing ones.
The same gospel is always the good news about the power of God in salvation to them that ARE SAVED (present passive middle participles).

The gospel comes to them that ARE SAVED... they will hear and believing it as the good news of God's power in saving them.

It is not the gospel that comes to them that are lost, and the Spirit uses it to regenerate them, and they believed, and got saved!

The gospel brings to light the life and immortality in them that ARE SAVED.

Marks
‎@Sing Forgive me for not knowing all these terms. I'm a stay-at-home mom who reads her Bible and listens to the Gospel preached faithfully (as often as I can).
This is what the Scriptures say; that one must be born of water [Gospel] and the Spirit. How does that usurp authority if God sends forth preachers to preach this "powerful" Gospel? It is the Gospel that has power, not sinful preachers. When Aaron and his sons[priests] were used by God to enter into the Holy place on behalf of the congregation, how is this different? Would you say they were usurping God's authority? The priests were still sinful men[they had meat offerings twice daily for themselves] but God used them as instruments to "bring forth the Law".

In Hebrews7:11-12, it talks about a change in the priesthood. The change was from the Levitical priests bringing forth the Law, to the NT preachers [sent by God] to bring forth Christ in The Gospel.

Marks ‎
@ Sing I am continuing to study this subject. I only want the Truth, as that is what is honoring to God. Let me get back to you about this. Thanks....

Sing F Lau
‎@Marks, a stay-at-home mom who reads her Bible is a RARE species today. This world would be a far better and happier place if more Christian moms hold their forts. May the Lord bless you richly for being faithful to your calling. Take courage too that a mom who reads her Bible is ALSO capable of helping servants of God to understand the word of God more completely. Remember how Priscilla helped great Apollos!

You asked, "How does that usurp authority if God sends forth preachers to preach this "powerful" Gospel? "

First please take note that the gospel is a message. The gospel (lower case 'g'. Upper case 'g" refers to one of the four "Gospel" in the NT Scriptures) is the good news of what God has done to save His people. The gospel declares the great power of God in saving His people through His Son Jesus Christ, and applied to individual elect by the Holy Spirit.

The gospel, being the good news. has NO POWER in itself to save. It does declare the power of God in saving His people. Those that ARE SAVED (already regenerated by the Spirit of God) will hear the gospel and perceive it as a message declaring the POWER of God...

Then permit me to answer your question by using an illustration. Supposing you are a midwife. And you were sent to a home to help deliver a child. That's your calling and mission. You went and do your work and your mission was accomplished. Bless the Lord.

The problem arises when you insist on claiming that you were sent to assist in the conception of the life that you help delivered. And every gospel regenerationist insists on claiming this: they are instrumental in the regeneration of dead sinners by the Holy Spirit. SCANDALOUS usurpation!

Similarly, another illustration:
Supposing a man FREELY credited a $1b to your account and clear ALL your debt too while you were condemned and declared bankrupt. And someone brought the good news to you. And you believed the good news of the FREE benevolent act and believing you went to the bank to draw on the money.

It would be SCANDALOUS and TREACHEROUS of you to claim that it is your believing the good news (here 'good news' would have to be some kind of 'offer' instead of something that has already happened!) and going to the bank that caused the gift to be freely credited to your account!

Yet so many insist that... they are justified by God through their faith, I.E. that God imputed Christ's righteousness to them because/when they believe!

The truth is: your believing EVIDENCES your justified state! Faith is the instrument to EVIDENCE and MANIFEST your justified state by God's free grace! Hardly any Calvinist understands this distinction and basic truth!

May our Lord grant us understanding.

Marks
‎@Sing First of all, thank you for your kind words. I am thankful for an opportunity to witness the gospel at any time. I have been searching the scriptures to try to find truth in this matter. It is very important to understand that *...the gospel message * is the running theme throughout the Bible and does represent the power of God unto salvation.
In Acts 8, where there is the conversion of a religious man from Ethiopia. In verse 26 it says, " And the angel[messenger] of the Lord spake to Phillip, saying, Arise and go... And he arose and went..." Acts 8:27. In verse 29, "Then the Spirit said to Phillip to go near and join thyself to this chariot" Phillip ran to him and hears him reading the prophet Isaiah and asks him if he understands what he is reading. And he says, "How can I, except some man should guide me?"

It is very important to look at the passage of scripture he was reading. "He was led as a sheep to the slaughter[Hebrew word= sfag-ay'=meaning sacrifice]." It continues.."In his humiliation [being made low] his judgment was taken away..." This passage was about salvation.
It proceeds in verse 35, "Then Phillip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus."

He was sent to preach the gospel to this chosen man of God. He goes on to ask Phillip if he can be baptized and Phillip answers and says that if he "believes with all thine heart, he may". When the Ethiopian comes up out of the water, the Spirit caught Phillip away and he saw him no more and the Ethiopian went on his way rejoicing.

Another example is in Acts9:, we have the conversion of Saul on the road to Damascus. Christ appears to him which leaves him in a state of blindness. He is fasting and praying for three days. In verse 10, God spoke to Ananias in a vision and said for him to arise and go...to one called Saul. And Ananias went and entered into the house and laid his hands on Saul[acting as a priest] and preached the message of Jesus to Saul, "so that thou mightest receive thy sight and be filled with the Holy Ghost." Acts9:18 In verse 18, it says, "And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received his sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized."

Your example of a midwife being instrumental was applicable until you said that the midwife claimed that it was from his power. No man sent of God will ever claim anything more than being used as an instrument of God. When Peter and John were performing miracles [pointing to salvation] and the people started looking at them, they would immediately say, "Why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness...."

I don't see how you can refute the idea that God sends men to preach His gospel to His elect chosen vessels, and somehow[I don't claim I understand how this exactly works] uses this gospel[water] and the Spirit to quicken these "dead stones",as it were. "Ye also, as lively[literally alive] stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ." 1 Pet 2:5

Sing F Lau
‎@Marks - learn the different between regeneration and conversion. A biblicaldistinction is the essence of sound theology.

Regeneration is without means.
Conversion is through the preaching of the gospel. Faith cometh by hearing.

If you can't distinguish the difference between a man fathering a child in his wife, and the mid-wife assisting in delivering that life, you will not be able to distinguish the difference between the Spirit's immediate and direct work of regeneration, and the preacher's work of converting God's children (elect already regenerated) to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I put to you that the eunuch was regenerated LONG before Philip was sent to convert him to the gospel truth. And the same goes for Ananias with respect to Paul.

You said "I don't see how you can refute the idea that God sends men to preach His gospel to His elect chosen vessels,"

You still don't get the point! The point is not WHETHER God sends men to preach His gospel to His elect chosen vessels.

The ISSUE is WHAT does God send His men to do - you say, to preach the gospel. I say a hearty AMEN to that... but what is the purpose of preaching the gospel? Is it because it is a necessary instrument/means to enable God to regenerate the dead, or is it to convert His children (regenerated immediately and directly by the Holy Spirit without the preachers involvement)?

So get the exact issue under consideration.
Is the midwife instrumental in the conception of that life she delivered or not, or instrumental in delivering the life that already exists WITHOUT her role whatsoever?

If you still don't understand the issue, I say with Paul, "And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home." May the Lord bless you to understand the issue.

Sing F Lau
The distinction between Regeneration and Conversion

There is a very helpful one-page article here: http://letgodbetrue.com/
Scroll down to the page and you will see the article. This website is a gold mine! Bring your truck, gloves, and shovel... and start shoveling! Here is the short article:

REGENERATION AND CONVERSION
Regeneration and conversion are Bible words. Both words identify a spiritual work in the child of God. However, they do not refer to the same thing.

REGENERATION
Regeneration is wholly of God. It is the Holy Spirit’s quickening work whereby spiritual life is given to the sinner “by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost” (Tit 3:5). The word comes from “re” meaning “again” and “generate” meaning “to beget.” Jesus identified this work of God as being “born again” (John 3:3). The Bible is emphatic that God “of his own will begat” us (Jam 1:18), even as Jesus claimed He “quickeneth whom He will” (John 5:21).

Eternal life, i.e., spiritual life, is God’s sovereign gift bestowed in regeneration. While invisible to men, this life is demonstrated by man’s response in conversion. Note especially the absence in Scripture of even one command for a sinner to seek regeneration.

CONVERSION
Conversion is the response of the regenerated child of God to his Heavenly Father’s will and commandments. The word means to “turn” or “turn about.” Thus it was foretold of John the Baptist’s ministry, “and many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God” (Lu 1:16). Those John turned are declared to be already related to “the Lord their God” but needed to turn about and obey Him.

Jesus describes the Apostle Peter’s denial and recovery by saying, “when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren” (Lu 22:32). James explains the departure of a Christian brother from the truth can be corrected if another “converteth the sinner from the error of his way” (Jam 5:20).

Numerous exhortations and commandments are addressed to the saved, i.e., regenerated children of God, calling them from sin, error and ignorance to righteousness, truth and joyful assurance in fellowship with God (1 John 1:3, 7-9). A person’s conversion is usually in proportion to his understanding of and obedience to Bible truth.

REGENERATION CONTRASTED WITH CONVERSION
While regeneration is a once-for-all event, conversion will occur in steps depending upon one learning to follow God’s revealed will.

REGENERATION CONVERSION
God’s work                     Man’s response
Sovereignly given           Conditional
Eternal life                      Fellowship
One time                         Repeated
Inward Work                  Outward evidence
Complete at once            Partial in steps

Marks
‎@Sing The two examples were definitely examples of regeneration. How can you dispute the fact that after Ananias preached to Saul, the Holy Spirit entered him. It seems that you have an idea in your mind and you won't listen to what the scriptures are saying. Read Joshua 6, about the fall of Jericho. I have been studying this and it is a picture of one of God's elect being saved.

"By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days."Heb11:30

Look very closely how the priests were to blow their trumpets each day[ picturing gospel bring preached] but the soldiers were not to make a sound. If you are truly seeking truth, there is a lot that can be gleaned here.

It's been a good conversation, Sing, but I can see that we don't see the same things in the scriptures. Take care...

Sing F Lau
‎@ By the two examples, I believe you refer to the eunuch and Paul.
So, you are saying that the eunuch was an UN-regenerated man, a man still dead in trespasses and sin and a man still dead in trespasses and sins would travel all the way from Ethiopia to Jerusalem to worship the God of Israel? Hmmm!

So you are also saying that Paul was still an UN-regenerated man, a man still dead in trespasses and sins... and a man still dead in trespasses and sins would obey the Lord Jesus Christ, "And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do."

I think you have confused REGENERATION and CONVERSION!

If you still don't understand the issue, I say with Paul, "And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home."

Marks
‎@Sing Yes, this is exactly what the scriptures are saying. Do you realize how few in all of Israel were saved? Only a remnant, the rest died in unbelief in the wilderness. They were very religious but never trusted Christ. I was very religious (works oriented) for 5 years before God opened my eyes to the rest we have in Christ alone. People will cry out to God, for their own gain in this life, and then forget Him in a year or two. I've seen it in people I know. Very sad to witness, but many serve Him only for their "belly".

Sing F Lau
Thanks Marks. So it is your belief that all those that died in the wilderness and failed to enter the promised land ALL WENT TO HELL!
Thanks again Cindy! "but I can see that we don't see the same things in the scriptures. Take care..."

Marks
‎@Sing please do not twist my words, I did not say they ALL died in unbelief, but there were a great number.
"Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the LORD, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you: Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,
Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun." Num14:28

Sing F Lau
‎@Marks, now you accuse me of twisting you words!
You wrote these exact words. Here they are,
" Yes, this is exactly what the scriptures are saying. Do you realize how few in all of Israel were saved? Only a remnant, the rest died in unbelief in the wilderness."
=======
You asked, "Do you realize how few in all of Israel were saved?"
And you answered your own question: "Only a remnant, the rest died in unbelief in the wilderness."

These words PLAINLY means:
- Only a remnant were saved.
- The rest were not saved, and they died in unbelief in the wilderness.

If words have meaning, that's exactly what you have said. You can retract them, or admit that you haven't expressed yourself well... but saying I twist your words is a wee bit shameful!

You asked, "Do you realize how few in all of Israel were saved?"
I inquire, "SAVED from what"? And what prevented them from being saved.

Please learn the distinction between regeneration and conversion before you continue!

Marks
You are no longer being reasonable. There was a remnant saved, that is what the Bible says. They didn't ALL die in unbelief, as you claimed I said.

Sing F Lau
Marks, there was a remnant saved INDEED... but that remnant, according to your own words, entered the promised land. "THE REST DIED IN THE WILDERNESS" - your words.

You asked, "Do you realize how few in all of Israel were saved?"
And you answered your own question: "Only a remnant, the rest died in unbelief in the wilderness."

So ONLY a small remnant was saved. This remnant entered the promised land. ALL the rest died in unbelief in the wilderness... and according to your belief, all these ended up in hell.

Now, you say. They didn't ALL die in unbelief. Who didn't ALL die in unbelief? Are you now saying that SOME of the remnant DID die in unbelief?

You accused me of twisting your words, then you say I am no longer reasonable.

Have you learned from your husband the difference between regeneration and conversion yet, the difference between his act of fathering a child in you and the mid-wife act of delivering that child he fathered in you. (Please note that I am not being rude... I did say, Please learn the distinction between regeneration and conversion before you continue!

Being born again... by the word of God

Who is the Carrier, and the Carried?

Dear Pastor...
Need your counsel on these two subjects.
Last night Bible Study you mentioned that we are begotten of the Spirit, meaning born of the Spirit. Does it mean that the only way we are regenerated or born again is through the Spirit? Can it also be through the Word of God as mentioned in 1 Pet1:23: "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. "

Is it right to conclude that the Word of God is the means for both regeneration and conversion?

Matt. 22: 14: " For many are called, but few are chosen". Does the "called" refers to the general calling and the "chosen" refers to the effectual calling?

Thanks for your help.
=======

Dear Brother,

Thank you for your excellent questions.

For the first question, there are several things you must bear in mind.
1. Spiritual birth or begetting always requires a PERSON, a life giving PERSON as the active agent. A thing cannot begets in the sense of bringing about a new life.

2. The Scriptures attribute the new birth to all the three Persons of the Godhead.
- To God the Father: "John 1: 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
- To God the Son: John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
- To God the Spirit: John 3: 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

3. In many places in the Scriptures, the second PERSON of the Godhead is often designated as the word of God.
- John 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.

- Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in HIS sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of HIM with whom we have to do."
[It is beyond any shadow of doubt that in this passage the Word of God refers to a PERSON... Look at the personal pronouns that follow in verse 13.]

- 2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water. 

[compare this with John 1:2 'All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." The pronoun him refers to the Word of God.]

- 1 Jn. 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
[The Word is the Second Person of the eternal Godhead.]

 - Re 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

It is obvious that the Word of God - logos theos - found in 1Pet 1:23 refers to a PERSON, and not the written word or the preached word of God. Because in the whole of the Scriptures begetting is never attributed to a thing, e.g. the preached word, or the written Scriptures.

Look at the passage carefully now:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 ¶ For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

The "word of God" under consideration is said to be incorruptible, which lives and abides forever. It is living and abiding forever. Please note also the subjects being compared. The comparison is between personal beings, between persons: all flesh and men on the one hand, and the person known as "the word of God."

Please note verse 25: three separate entities are spoken of: "the word", "the gospel" and the "preaching." The gospel is about the person designated as the "word of God" - the preaching of the gospel is about a PERSON, who is the eternal "Word of God" made flesh. " John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

In addition, the Scriptures itself testifies that the written Scriptures have been corrupted by many.
2Co 2:17 "For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ." The incorruptible word of God (1Pet 1:23) must refer to the Second Person of the Trinity - He is pure, impeccable, and incorruptible One.

The written and preached word of God is the means appointed by God for the conversion of His children that were born or begotten directly and immediately by the word of God.

For the second question, consider the context.

It has been said before, and aptly, that the first three rules of interpretation are: 1 Context, 2 Context, and 3 Context. The context alone will tell us the exact nature of the calling and chosen.

In the election (chosen of God), and the effectual calling unto eternal life, both are equal and exact in number, the number elected and the number eventually called are co-extensive, exactly the same. AS MANY AS - i.e. not one more, and not one less - are chosen unto eternal life, are ALSO effectually called unto eternal life. So, the calling and chosen CANNOT possibly relate to effectual calling.

Mt 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen" is the conclusion of a parable that began in verse 1. The parable is about the kingdom of heaven - it instructs us about an aspect of the kingdom of heaven. It is not about doing something in order to get into heaven. Please remember also that the parables relate especially to God's children among the Jews in the time prior to 70AD. Therefore the calling is the gospel call, not the effectual call. The gospel call came to MANY of God's children among the Jews. BUT few are chosen to enjoy the gospel blessings. Many of them, even though they were God's children, remained unbelieving, and deprived themselves of the blessings of the kingdom of heaven. They were stuck in the outward form of the geriatric earthly kingdom of Israel instead of the new kingdom of heaven that Christ has ushered in. This parable applied specifically to the first century Jews and church kingdom, but also has a secondary application to us today. If we don't embrace the truth appointed for us, we too will deprive ourselves of the blessings, but suffer chastisement and scourging.

The parable of the kingdom of heaven is dealing SPECIFICALLY with God's children among the Jews. The kingdom of heaven [used ONLY in Matthew] is a term used specifically to contrast with the earthly theocratic kingdom that God's children among the Jews are so familiar with. They are called to leave it, and to enter the kingdom of heaven... leave to old covenant kingdom into the new covenant kingdom... why? The old was going to be abolished soon!

That's the context of the 'many are called but few are chosen.' Many of them are called by the gospel, but only a few of them were chosen to enjoy the blessings of the gospel.

Many of God's children among the Jews were called by the gospel. (NOT ALL of them were called by the gospel call.) Though many of them are called by the gospel call, yet only a few were chosen to believe and experienced the blessings of the gospel.

Many of God's children among the Jews were blinded... only a remnant of God's children among the Jews were chosen to believe the gospel.

Read Romans 11...
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

I hope these help. Please feel free to ask further.

your brother and servant in Christ,
sing
=========

You have asked a very important question. When one can distinguish between regeneration and conversion, he will be spared much confusion.

"A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology." That's a central principle in rightly dividing the word of truth.

There is a helpful one-page article here: http://letgodbetrue.com/
Scroll down to the bottom, and you will find the article there.
This web site is a gold mine! Bring your truck, gloves, and shovel...

Here is the short article:

REGENERATION AND CONVERSION
Regeneration and conversion are Bible words. Both words identify a spiritual work in the child of God. However, they do not refer to the same thing.

REGENERATION
Regeneration is wholly of God. It is the Holy Spirit’s quickening work whereby spiritual life is given to the sinner “by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost” (Tit 3:5). The word comes from “re” meaning “again” and “generate” meaning “to beget.” Jesus identified this work of God as being “born again” (John 3:3). The Bible is emphatic that God “of his own will begat” us (Jam 1:18), even as Jesus claimed He “quickeneth whom He will” (John 5:21).

Eternal life, i.e., spiritual life, is God’s sovereign gift bestowed in regeneration. While invisible to men, this life is demonstrated by man’s response in conversion. Note especially the absence in Scripture of even one command for a sinner to seek regeneration.

CONVERSION
Conversion is the response of the regenerated child of God to his Heavenly Father’s will and commandments. The word means to “turn” or “turn about.” Thus it was foretold of John the Baptist’s ministry, “and many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God” (Lu 1:16). Those John turned are declared to be already related to “the Lord their God” but needed to turn about and obey Him.

Jesus describes the Apostle Peter’s denial and recovery by saying, “when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren” (Lu 22:32). James explains the departure of a Christian brother from the truth can be corrected if another “converteth the sinner from the error of his way” (Jam 5:20).

Numerous exhortations and commandments are addressed to the saved, i.e., regenerated children of God, calling them from sin, error and ignorance to righteousness, truth and joyful assurance in fellowship with God (1 John 1:3, 7-9). A person’s conversion is usually in proportion to his understanding of and obedience to Bible truth.

REGENERATION CONTRASTED WITH CONVERSION
While regeneration is a once-for-all event, conversion will occur in steps depending upon one learning to follow God’s revealed will.

REGENERATION................. CONVERSION
God’s work                              Man’s response
Sovereignly given                   Conditional
Eternal life                              Fellowship
One time                                 Repeated
Inward Work                          Outward evidence
Complete at once                   Partial in steps

The 'word of God' and the 'Word of God'

Re 19:13 "And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood:
and His name is called the Word of God."

Here are a few exchanges involving the phrase 'word of God.'

Wiebe
Asked about his accomplishments as a Reformer, Martin Luther said, “I simply taught, preached, wrote God’s Word: otherwise I did nothing… The Word did it all.” The Word of God brings life. ~ Mark Dever

Sing F Lau
Is the 'Word of God' that brings life a person or something administered by Mark Dever and Martin Luther? I ask to understand.

The "Word of God" that gives life and the "word of God" that is administered to nourish the life that has been given MUST BE DISTINGUISHED... to avoid confusion and errors.

Wiebe
‎@ Sing. with your distinction between Jesus, the Word of God and the Bible as the Word of God, is there a question as to whether the Scriptures are inerrant and that they are somehow less authoritative as the voice of God to lost humanity? there are implications to these perspectives as I am sure you are well aware of.

Sing F Lau
@Wiebe
The purpose of the distinction between a divine Person, and the divine revelation is of utmost importance if we are to rightly divide the word of truth.

The issue of the infallibility and authority of the revealed word of God (the Scriptures) does not arise.

Jesus is the eternal Word of God made flesh, therefore fully divine and fully God. This Word of God is a divine Person, and in Him is life. He gives eternal life.

The Scriptures is the revealed word of God, to His people, for their instruction and edification. Scriptures are given for God's people.

Just as the eternal Word of God made flesh is perfect and sinless, the revealed will of God through men (Scriptures through men) is perfect and inerrant and authoritative.

Sing F Lau
Without making a clear distinction, how many have erred in understanding important doctrines and biblical passages.

For example:
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
======

How many there are who care not for the SENSE of this passage but are carried away by the SOUND of it... and insist that the 'word of God' here refers to the Scriptures... the written word of God. The context plainly tells us that the 'word of God' is a DIVINE PERSON!

Sing F Lau
Another example:
1Pet 1
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 ¶ For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth..., and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
=====

Not rightly dividing the word of truth, so many ended up with the lie of gospel regeneration, the preaching of the gospel is a necessary instrument in the Spirit's work of regeneration.

The WORD and the GOSPEL and the PREACHING are clearly distinguished!

The gospel declares the Word of God, the divine person! There is gospel because the eternal Word was made flesh and executed the works of redemption for the people God has given to Him.

Trowse
Sing, are you saying that John 1 is about Jesus is the eternal Word made flesh? What is the eternal Word? I thought it just said Word.

Nolfo
FAITH COMETH BY HEARING THE WORD OF GOD!!!
(so? The devil can quote Scriptures too, only far better!)

Sing F Lau
‎@Greg
"1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life;... and the life was the light of men...
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Yes, John 1 is about the eternal Word made flesh.
Indeed it says the Word, but it says the Word was God. If the Word was God, then it must be eternal. The Word refers to the second person of the Trinity before incarnation. The Word is eternal. The Word WAS MADE, became flesh in TIME. Jesus Christ is the eternal Word became flesh.

1Jo 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Re 19:13 "And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God."

Sing F Lau
‎@Salvatore
Please learn to quote correctly! Carelessness is no virtue in understanding God's word.
Ro 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

There are two distinct but related matters here.

One:
'So then faith cometh by hearing' - tells the necessity of preaching the gospel. Preaching the gospel DRAWS FORTH the grace of faith that HAS BEEN worked by the Spirit of Christ who dwells in the hearts of the children of God. Without the preaching of the gospel, the grace of faith worked in the hearts of God's children will not be manifested. Life and immortality in them would not be made manifest!

2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Two:
'And hearing by the word of God': hearing is an activity of life. Ability to hear spiritual things proclaimed in the gospel is through the spiritual life given BY the life giving person designated as the word of God.

Except a man be born again... he cannot see, cannot hear spiritual things, etc.

Wiebe
the Word of Scripture is uniquely God-inspired unlike any other literature whereby we may believe Jesus is the Messiah.
John 20:30-31
30 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of His disciples that are not written in this book. 31 But these are written so that you may believe Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and by believing you may have life in His name.

Trowse
Sing, John MacArthur describes the "Word" differently. Check out Gen 1:3 Pss 33:6 107:20 Prov 8:27. The "Word" is referring to Jesus or the second person of the trinity.
I think to sum up John is saying Jesus is God who spoke the words"let there be light" In fact He spoke all the "let there be" creations in Gen...

Sing F Lau
Trowse, so much for the shibboleth "sola scriptura."

Here is the word (lower case "w"), the Scriptures inspired by God...

Jesus is the eternal Word made flesh.

"1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life;... and the life was the light of men...
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.