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Paradise and Heaven: are they the same?
Lu 23:43 And Jesus
said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in
paradise.
2Co 12:4 How that he
was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not
lawful for a man to utter.
Re 2:7 He that hath
an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that
overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the
paradise of God.
Is the word
'paradise' (paradeisos) in the passages above the same as 'heaven' (ouranos)?
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Sing F Lau
Re 2:7 He that hath
an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh
will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise
of God.
"To him that
overcometh... " most certainly implies that there are saints who do not
overcome. If all children of God do overcome, then this promise becomes
meaningless and redundant.
The question is: what happens to the saints who fail to overcome? What is their lot before their resurrection unto eternal glory?
Sing F Lau
Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at
the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to
destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is
the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that
find it.
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This passage speaks
of discipleship of God's children.
The wide gate and
the broad way discipleship leads to destruction.
Is that destruction
suffered in this life time before death, or during the time between death and
resurrection to glory?
Mark
My little opinion is
that both the word paradise and the word heaven may have multiple meanings that
are best established by context.
Mark
For a child of God
all destructions, privations, chastisements are timely and thus before death.
To be dead in body is to be present with the Lord in Glory. There are no intermediate
states taught in Scripture.
Vicki Lloyd
I so believe that, bro. Mark.
Sing F Lau
Is the state of
existence between death and resurrection distinct from the state of existence
after resurrection, or they are the same?
Mark
From the perspective
of time and human reasoning, yes, in that for a period of 'time' the
soul/spirit is disembodied. From a perspective that is not subject to time, no.
Charles
A soul is never
disembodied but the spirit is. Body and soul perish in the grave but the spirit
returns to it's creator. Body and soul await resurrection n glorification. Body
and soul and spirit are subject to time awaiting judgement and
resurrection/glorification.
Mark
Psychopannychism
(soul sleep) is an ancient heresy. I do not feel a need to contest it.
Vicki Lloyd
Charles, you may have
to await judgment when your spirit leaves your body but as for me, I will be
with the Lord, and there will be no more judgment. That time was here while my
spirit resided in this body.
Charles
God breathed into
the nostrils of the man he had created from the ground and he bacame a living
soul. Man is a soul inseperable from the body (soma). The person (soul) who
sins shal surely die and death is the result of the sin of Adam. He goes back
to the dust of the earth from which he was formed. The spirit does not die but
returns to the creator at death.
The soul sleeps, people say that this 'spirit' is a mere memory and therefore not man. My belief
is that the spirit is a real intinty though immaterial and there remains a
thinking capacity to reflect upon past conduct. The spirit returns to be with
the Lord and so "to be absent from the body (soul) is to be present with
the Lord."
Jesus' body was taken down from the cross yet He lived on as spirit, dscended to 'sheol/hades', preached to captives there (disobedient people, elect, who perished in the Noahic flood)
Charles
eight souls were
saved by the ark and an untold number of souls perished in the flood and their
spirits went to sheol, captivity, specifically for their disobedience. Body and
soul perished in the waters.
Robert
Brother Lau, from
what I know, He that overcometh is the same that overcame, as in John 16:33.
Also the tree of life represents eternal life in Christ as evidenced by
Gen3:22. Romans 8:31,32 clearly all things are freely given. All that Christ
is, is ours including His overcoming. 1 John 5:4 overcoming is a
result of the new birth! All those in Christ shall overcome, as our Lord said.
all that the Father giveth me Shall come to me and all that cometh to me I will
loose none but raise it up at the last day. John 5:24 should clear up any
doubts on this question.
Robert
re: states after
death and before resurrection. John 5:24 also answers that question. For me, the
only difference is the state of the tabernacle we dwell in on the last day, my
body will be raised as a glorified spiritual body and united with my soul and
spirit 1 Corinthians 15:53. also 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 body,soul, spirit 1
Thessalonians 5:23
Charles
He who overcomes is
one who exercises diligent faith in obtaining mercy in timely salvation. All
have the overcomer abiding by virtue of election, but not all are overcomers
-ie, elect infants who die in infancy are heaven-bound but are not overcomers in
timely salvation.
Some of the elect
have not the Son and have not life. The overcoming life is found in believing
that Jesus is the Son of God. Not all the regenerate have that life. Many are
kept from that life by circumstances and acquaintances.
Charles
body and soul will
be united with spirit.
Robert
@ Charles comments
on preaching to the disobedient before the flood, or is that Scholfield's idea. Look at the same book, 1 Peter but chapter 1 verses 10-12 also compare with Isaiah 61:1, all prophets had the Spirit of Christ in them including Noah. He did not, as far
as I understand, go to hell to preach to anyone he suffered for our
transgressions alone
Robert
I can see that
conditional or time salvation can really complicate understanding the simple. I
am not sure that believing the gospel is optional to those whom it is sent. ie:
Acts 13:48 all those ordained believed also 2 Thessalonians 2:13&14 also 1
Corinthians 12:18, Galatians 1:15,16, Jeremiah 1:5.
My position is that there
are the elect with in the elect those who are ordained to hear and believe and
those who have not heard and will never hear. I am not sure that even many in
this time world right now have heard THE GOSPEL but they have heard another
gospel which is not another. It was not ultimately optional that Lydia would
hear and believe. God sent His word to accomplish the purpose for which He sent
it. Much of the evangelism of today and the past 100 years has not been sent of
God, but by man
Charles
"By which also
he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Which sometime were
disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,
while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by
water."
Did Schofield or
Peter say this? I believe it was Peter!
Sing F Lau
Mark, @ From
the perspective of time and human reasoning, yes, in that for a period of
'time' the soul/spirit is disembodied. From a perspective that is not subject
to time, no.
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When a man's body is
still stuck in the time grave, and awaiting the end time resurrection, how
could we think and reason outside the perspective of time.
Mark
The cognitive parts
of the soul/spirit are not bound by time upon death of the body.
Charles
The spirits under
the altar seemed bogged down in the urgency of time as they cry out for
vengeance. They cry, "How, long oh Lord?"
Sing F Lau
Mark @ There
are no intermediate states taught in Scripture.
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What do you mean by
intermediate states in the statement above? I have always understood
intermediate states as the state of disembodied existence between death and
resurrection.
Sing F Lau
Howard, does it ever occur to you that the rich man is a child of God, but
he lived unrighteous life. So he is tormented between his death and
resurrection to glory???
He addressed Abraham
as 'father' and Abraham him 'son.'
Lu 16:24 And he
cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may
dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in
this flame.
Lu 16:25 But Abraham
said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and
likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(Howard has deleted all his comments)
Sing F Lau
Howard, If it sounds like
that to you, then you have VERY POOR hearing.
I asked: Does it
ever occur to you that the rich man is a child of God, but he lived an unrighteous
life. So he is tormented between his death and resurrection to glory???
This question
presupposes that the rich man is a child of God, and that's only possible by
grace through the righteousness of Jesus Christ. So to conclude from the
question that a man can climb the mountain to righteousness is just BAD
reading, and also BAD hearing.
I am inquiring
whether God's children who lived unrighteously do suffer just punishment in the
period between their death and resurrection to glory? and whether the rich man
might be an example of that?
And in case you have bad reading and hearing, the question above presupposes the certainty of their resurrection to glory BASED solely on the righteousness of Jesus Christ accounted to him by God's free grace.
Sing F Lau
Howard, are there God's children that live like the rich man?
Are there God's
children who enter the wide gate and walk the broad road?
No, the passage on
Lazarus and the rich man is NOT about the torment in eternity. The torment in
eternity won't be until the general resurrection.
You are TOO
simplistic and are ignorant of the issue I am dealing with.
Robert Cook
Brother Lau, I wonder
if we are straining at gnats? Romans 8 says now there is now no condemnation to
those in Christ Jesus. I appreciate the genuine inquiry into a difficult
parable, to say the least, it has always troubled me from a theological position
on many fronts, but it is not worth making enemies over my brother.
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Take a look at these related topics:
https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2023/12/of-mans-state-after-death-and.html
https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2023/07/paradise-paradeisos-and-heaven-ouranos.html
https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2024/09/paradise-and-heaven.html
