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| "Saved from what?", "Saved unto what?" and "Saved by meeting what conditions?" |
April 8, 2022
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/pfbid02odThcuengBaa6PcrZKVN1J1WsySyVcozpDPFnpPG4RA1RiWJsqLsiUoB9CWyxQRkl
Eternal salvation is freely applied to each
elect personally when they are still in their native state of sin and death:
Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in
trespasses and sins;
Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the
uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having
forgiven you all trespasses.
Temporal salvation is conditionally offered
to those whom God has freely saved with eternal salvation:
Mar 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be
saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Acts 2
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever
shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved....
40 And with many other words did he testify
and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
1Timothy 4:16
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the
doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and
them that hear thee.
Eternal salvation is monergistic: freely and
sovereignly purposed by God, accomplished by Jesus Christ, and applied by the
Spirit without any cooperation from the elect, who are by nature dead in
trespasses and sins.
Once freely and sovereignly bestowed with
eternal salvation, God holds His children responsible to work out their own
salvation with fear and trembling through their obedience to their Father's
will.
Blessed are you if you have understood these
things; many theologians don't have a clue!
Fred
“But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and
your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and
righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen
them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.”
Matthew
13:16-17 KJV
Lloyd
Some temporal salvations are conditionally
offered to the children of God. Some are not. If you are unconscious, floating
in the lake and I reach down and save you from drowning, that is a temporal
salvation not conditionally offered to the children of God.
Sing
Lloyd "... unconscious,
floating in the lake..." sounds like a dead decomposing man to me. Thank you for saving me anyway.
Lloyd
Unconscious, not dead.
Low WY
Lloyd, if he is only unconscious, and
capable of floating he can surely save himself when he regains consciousness..
I don't see someone capable of floating being seen as drowning at the same
time.. sounds oxymoron to me
Dan
Brother Lloyd raises a good point, one that
is not often discussed on the topic of temporal salvation, namely the truth
that some, but not all, TEMPORAL salvations are likewise monergistic acts of
God. I would not describe them as "temporally offered" unless one was
using "offer" in the sense of "declared for one's
information" rather than "presented for one's rejection or denial
thereof" - but this is admittedly a bit of a quibble.
Leaving that observation aside to state the
matter more clearly: We shall all be temporally saved from another worldwide
flood. That doesn't deliver anyone to eternal glory, but it does deliver us
from that particular, temporal calamity. This deliverance is the result of an
unconditional promise of God, that requires absolutely nothing of man
whatsoever. Nevertheless, many temporal salvations in the scriptures are
contingent upon the willing and active obedience of a child of God, and this
aspect of temporal salvation is often the most emphasized as it provides the
greatest contrast with monergistic eternal salvation and thus has the greatest
explanatory benefit.
Donna
Lloyd, well, sir, if u are
unconscious, you are not able to do anything to help yourself, either.
Lloyd
Low WY: Ah, yes, you raise a good point.
By my not being precise and detailed with my example, it led to confusion and a
misunderstanding on your part. Much like using a general term like temporal
salvation, which can mean many things. If on the other hand, I had said that 2
boats had an accident. The man in one boat hit his head and was knocked
unconscious before he fell face down in the water. The man in the second boat,
thinking quickly, reached down and pulled the unconscious man out of the water
before he could sink, saving his life. If he had not done so, the unconscious
man, who was briefly floating face down, would have soon gone under and
drowned. When describing temporal salvation, you must be precise in your
meaning. There are an almost infinite number of temporal salvation types.
Sing
Brother Dan, I read your helpful
exchanges with Brother Lloyd on the appropriateness of terminology in
describing non-eternal salvation.
Greg
Lloyd, brother, in the case you
mention, a condition was met, not on the part of the unconscious but on the part of
the conscious, having a heart for his helpless fellow man, which isn’t always
the case.
Lloyd
Greg, usually when we talk about
salvation, conditional and unconditional is from the perspective of the saved
(recipient of the salvation). From the perspective of the one doing the saving,
it is always conditional. Even with God and eternal salvation. Unconditional
for us, conditional for God. In other words, eternal salvation is conditional
on God choosing us, Jesus dying for us, the Holy Spirit regenerating us or
giving us that spiritual/eternal life. There are no conditions on us, but there
are on God. God put those conditions on himself. After you are born again by
the
Spirit, you are able to believe that Jesus is
God’s son and that He is the way, the truth, and the life. When you believe,
you are saving yourself from a life of ignorance of the truth, you are saving
yourself from a life that ultimately does not satisfy, you are saving yourself
from a life where comfort, peace, and joy are fleeting not lasting, and you are
saving yourself from many other things that come from a life without knowing
who Jesus really is. I would rather give God’s little children that assurance
rather than telling them: if you believe in Jesus you can experience
conditional time salvation. Oh joy.
Greg
Lloyd, amen brother, I was just
poking at you, but I’m glad I did, I enjoyed the response.
I do think Bro. Sing was talking about
walking in Jesus teachings, being obedient and receiving promises made to those
of God's children who walk in meekness before the Lord.
Maybe conditional time salvation is confusing
to some, but it seems simple to me. “Save yourselves from this untoward generation." It is something given to God's children to do, good works that God has
foreordained that we should walk in them, to his honour and glory and to our
benefit even in suffering for his name's sake.
Rayburn
Concur, the truth is the truth
Dan
Very clearly stated. It is certainly true
that many if not most theologians seem to stumble over the distinction between
monergistic eternal salvation by Christ's willing obedience and synergistic
temporal salvation by our willing obedience to His precepts.
Sing
Dan - "synergistic temporal
salvation by our willing obedience to His precepts"
- The salvation under consideration involves
the spiritual well-being of God's children.
- The salvation under consideration requires
the willing obedience of God's children.
- this helps to reduce confusion.
I use the distinction of our BEING and WELL-BEING as God's children to illustrate the distinction between eternal and temporal salvations.
Dan
Sing - So you use them in this way....
BEING (eternal salvation) - in reference to
our state of eternal grace conferred upon us by God alone.
WELL-BEING (temporal salvation) - in reference
to our subsequent state of obedience in discipleship.
Is that the distinction you make?
Sing
Yes. Our being as God's children is wholly
monergistic; our well-being as His children is synergistic.
Dan
Sing- makes sense to me. Might have to
steal that from you, brother Sing.
Kay
I have never understood that subject.
Dan
Kay - I suspect that's because many
ministers make it more complicated than it is.
1. Salvation to heaven is done by God alone.
2. Salvation from this untoward generation is
done by God's promised enablement (the indwelling Holy Spirit, 1 Corinthians
10:13) and our willing and active obedience to the precepts of God (Isaiah
1:19).
We experience this in our everyday lives. We
know God has saved us by his grace (Romans 8:16). We likewise know that when we
sin, we do so in rebellion to what God has taught us and we deserve the
temporal consequences that accompany our disobedience and God's chastisement
thereof (Hebrews 12).
I understand your struggle with the subject
and believe it is pretty common among the Lord's sheep. But striving for a
better understanding of the matter is a worthy and profitable pursuit. I honour the admission that you have never understood the subject. In my own life,
similar admissions have often been a requirement to gaining a better
understanding later on.
Donna
Kay - Each time when u read the word
save, or saved in the BIBLE, do u apply it to eternal salvation?
Kay
Donna - if it meant eternal.
Donna
Kay - not every time you read saved or
saved it does not mean to heaven.
Kay
I get the eternal salvation. The temporal, is
that like our obedience saves us from consequences?
Sing
Kay - Yes, our obedience saves us from
consequences in this life, i.e., temporal consequences. Christ has saved us from the lake of
fire, i.e. eternal salvation.
Lloyd
I appreciate this discussion, brothers and
sisters. Iron sharpens iron. God gives different gifts to His children to use
in service and ministry in His kingdom. Let us all seek His wisdom in knowing
and using ours to His glory. Different children learn and memorize in different
ways. Let us all recognize that and seek the best way to share God’s truth.
Marty
I embrace the teaching of conditional
"temporal salvation" or "time salvation". But it should be
understood that God is the same in eternity and in time. Here is the viewpoint
that helps me to understand God's unchanging nature in this:
God is a perfect parent. His love for his
children, and the relationship he puts in place by grace, are everlasting. They
will never be separated from him, and any human he loves will arrive safely in
glory to dwell in his presence forever.
God is a perfect parent. He chastises his own
children for their disobedience, and rewards them for their obedience. His
fellowship with any of his children is conditioned on their thoughts, words,
and deeds.
Therefore, "temporal" or "time" salvation occurs only in time, because his children will not disobey him any more when they are in heaven. The unchanging God is a perfect parent to his children.
Lloyd
Marty - I also agree with the fact
that there are temporal or time salvations that are dependent on some
conditions that man must fulfil. I don’t disagree with that concept from a
theological perspective. But I don’t like the emphasis that is placed on the
theological terminology, which can be confusing to the folks in the pews. I
prefer to encourage and comfort them with specific examples such as if you
believe in Jesus … or if you obey Jesus … there is a salvation … in doing so.
As a pastor, I have found that using these theological terms like conditional
time salvation can be confusing and/or not applicable to their daily lives. And
there may be a reason that our Lord and his apostles chose to use “save”
“saved” or “salvation” without qualification in the inspired word. Salvation in
scripture, whether eternal or temporal in this world, is a gift from God by his
grace alone OR enabled by his grace with us following his commandments. I
prefer that instruction for His little children. Otherwise, why would he not have instructed us differently?
Marty
Yes, the closer we can stay to scriptural
language, the better for us and for those who hear us. And although the
apostles did not qualify the use of the words about salvation the same way as
modern theologians, the context of their words about salvation served to
qualify them well.
When a child of God encounters the word
"save" or "salvation" in the Bible, it does help to ask:
"saved from what?", "saved unto what" and "saved by
meeting what conditions?" If the answer to these questions - especially
the third one - is different from the answer in another text, then two
different kinds of salvation, or aspects of salvation, are under consideration.
Sing
Amen, and amen, Brother Marty.
