 |
And, behold, I come
quickly; and my reward is with me, |
Are there different
degrees of reward in heaven, or are those passages
that speak of the
rewards in the context of this life?
Please help me study
this subject. Thanks.
===============
Dallas
We are blessed with
all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. I believe our
degrees of reward are related to timely obedience. In heaven, we will each
equally testify to our cup running over and focus continually upon worship of
our redeemer, my thoughts.
Sing
Supposing we define
'heaven' as that:
1. The intermediate
state between death and resurrection
2. The state of
glorification after resurrection, would your answer be
any different for each state?
Keep thinking and
talking... Thanks.
Cheri
Heaven is where God
and Jesus are. to be absent from the body is to be present with God. There
ain't no in between!
Sing
Supposing the intermediate
state (the state between physical death and resurrection) is distinct from the
glorified state at resurrection, is the former state in time or in eternity?
Dallas
Yeah, that's what I
meant, I just not good at articulation. Very well stated, Elder Keith, Brother
Sing, I also agree with Sister Cheri, I don't know
anything of an intermediate state unless it is here and now, I once had a
Catholic ask me if I believed in Purgatory, we were standing on the third floor
of a coal fired power plant beneath a conveyor dragging limestone into a
crusher just above us as we were bending conduit (or attempting to) to run
around the circular perimeter of three different silos on the 7th floor, I
looked him in the eye and told him (yelling over the noise) "Yeah, that is
where we are now, right?" He didn't reply, but the smile in his eye was
enough. (is there anyone else I could tag in this reply?)
[Elder Keith has deleted all his comments.]
Sing
1Peter 1 KJT
3 ¶ Blessed be the
God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy
hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ
from the dead,
4 To an inheritance
incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for
you,
5 Who are kept by
the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last
time.
=======
That inheritance is
to be revealed in the last time. What is the "last time" referring to?
Dallas
I will let someone
more articulate answer. I will say this is related to the hope of glory that is
in the saint by the indwelling of Christ, that is, the last time to me is the
completion of that which the whole creation even now groaneth for, as we ourselves
likewise, to wit, the resurrection, the redemption of the body. But I may be
wrong, and I know I have not articulated it as well as many others would have
been capable of stating the truth on this matter. For me there is here and now,
possession of a hope of glory that is the last time. But, I am accustomed to
thinking along lines of studying scripture, perhaps under the colour of my own
shaded lens????
Sing
You won't
acknowledge the simple fact that there is a distinct difference between the
state you are in after death and the state you are in after resurrection?
Hmmmmmm. Isn't that obvious? No? Why the need for resurrection then!!!
Isn't it obvious
that your state after death and before resurrection is IMPERFECT and
INCOMPLETE?
Dallas
Maybe I never acknowledged
it because I am not wise enough to imagine or consider it? I know what Paul
said, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, I find no
reason to disagree with your disntinction having read it as you state it, but I
will not go too far along that road because it inmho will lead to the error of
soul sleeping which many otherwise sound Baptists in history subscribed to but
I do not and have no intention of having an appearance of it, though it may be
believed that I have little concern of what appearances may be, I do and I am
satisfied in not acknowledging or considering the distinction any further than
your statement, as I said, I find no disagreement with it as you state it, yet
I will go no farther along that road because, well I just see no reason for
such supposition. The difference is limited to? The redemption of the body
which is that of our redemption which draweth nigh, even now we who are
quickened possess every wit of the redemption in soul and spirit that will
shall in heaven, we look forward to the fullness of that redemption complete in
the putting of death under foot of our Lord, your distinction is no problem to
me, but that is as far as I will acknowledge it, I am in enough error without
being supposed to embrace soul sleeping.
Sing
Soul sleeping? How
could a LIVELY soul in an imperfect and incomplete state be soul sleeping? A
glorified but disembodied soul may be incomplete, but how could it be sleeping?
Dallas
Brother Sing, I
understand your point, I don't see any reason to belabour it. I believe it could
be perverted to that degree, but I don't mean that toward you. I believe that
incomplete state will be much to be desired even with my body returned to the
dust from whence it came...still, that incomplete state will not, in mho, be
incompletion.
Sing
Maybe I should have refrained from using 'intermediate state'.
Are there different
degrees of reward in the disembodied state?
Is the disembodied
state still in the 'temporal state' or the 'eternal state'?
Dallas
Yeah, I dislike the
term 'intermediate'; disembodied is more exact in my poor mind's eye, sorry. I
would say the disembodied state is in the eternal state, though separated from
the body. I believe I will, or at least I do now, view this disembodiment as
part of the eternal state. I believe this, but you do not, nor anyone else, have
to agree with me about it though. <grin>
Sing
Brother Dallas, I
don't take anything personally. I am only thinking and studying through this
issue... thank you for being a sounding board.
Dallas
You are welcome. I
am not taking it personally either. I am just saying, I don't know what others
believe, I can only say what I believe. I believe the disembodied soul and
spirit will be of the eternal state, I believe in the mind or view of God, we now
stand in the eternal state, but we experience this in the temporal. but I think
I would have always believed this, being present with the Lord as part of the
eternal state, though I may be wrong.
Sing
Now in time, 'we
experience this in the temporal...' and in the last time, we in our complete
perfection shall experience it in the eternal.
Dallas
Let me put my
understanding this way, Moses and Elijah stood on the Mt of Transfiguration
with the Lord, they were recognised, I believe they were already in the eternal
state, though they were not in their redeemed body.
Yeah, I believe this
is why it is said that we possess this treasure in earthen vessels.
I believe you make valid points. I can see that the redemption is not yet 'full' until the resurrection of the body, but I believe at our death, to be present with the Lord is the eternal state.
Dallas
I believe our
'temporal' experience will have ended. that's all I can say. I am thankful you
were able to understand my greater difficulty was with the term 'intermediate'
if I were sitting in your congregation and you preached this I would not fall
out with you over it at the least.
Dallas
Though sometimes I
am physically unbalanced, and therefore liable to fall out at any moment, it
would not be due to you teaching this concept...<grin> sometimes I simply
grow faint on my stronger side and I have no support from the other, so falling
has been something I have grown accustomed to, thankfully the Lord knew this
about me and he made me tough as nails.
[Penny has deleted her disturbing comments]
Mark
Penny, I
increasingly am curious as to your home church and pastor and found no answers
on your home page wall. Please inform me of these. I figure you can gather the
same from me on my wall........
Mark
Thank you. I
appreciate the information. It helps me know how and when to answer when
questioned.
Mark
Inheritance and
rewards are inherently different. Give that some study.
Mark
You are very
welcome.
Pj
Bro. Sing, it would
appear that you may think there is a difference between paradise and heaven. Do
you think that paradise is a temporal pre-resurrection abode and that heaven is
the eternal post-resurrection abode of the elect?
Dallas
Yes, I would agree
with that assessment. The Lord tells us that some of His children will bring
forth fruit 30-fold, some 60 and others 100. The reward is in the 'walking'
with the Lord and not measured according to the 'basket' I give to him as my
"fruit" at the end of the row I am given to hoe, that would be in
line with the labourers in the marketplace. If I hire on to cut tobacco for a
local farmer, you hire in the am, I hire after dinner, we each get 15cents per
stick cut, then at the end of that row your 'reward' is perhaps more in
reference to the # of hours you engaged in cutting and sticking the tobacco in
proportion my own would be less, provided that you had steadly brought forth
the fruit of your labor toward the goal in service to the Lord, otherwise we
two are paid (the reward) in an equal wage, the greater or lesser is not
weighed in the 30, 60 nor 100 fold, but in the obedience because it is in that
act and time that we enjoy the greater reward, otherwise, our reward remains
equal in the Lord accordingly to our 'hire'
I would agree with
your statement of your view, Brother Joe. In the eternal state we cannot be
greater or lesser; in the present timely experience, we are equal in the Lord.
The Lord did make
this statement, however...
Matthew 11:11 Verily
I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a
greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom
of heaven is greater than he.
Luke 7:28 For I say
unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet
than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater
than he.
I should study the
context of this prior to comment too much more, however, I think the concept
remains the same, the reward is equal, the experience of it is in the obedience
to the Lord in our labors, not in the greater 'fruit' we bring forth, but for
the fact that in this bringing forth we experience a greater time in communion
and fellowship with our Lord.
Yeah, I agree very
much with your statement, Brother Joe!
[Joe has deleted his comments too]
Dallas
Nope, I am not an
elder. In order to make paragraphs simply press the shift key simultaneously
with the enter key, thanks so much for your kind words, I do know your dad,
Elder Stephen Conte and I am thankful to have him as a friend and Brother in
the Lord for He has always provided me wise words founded upon scripture
first...I agree with you, I am constantly amazed at the consistent connections
between eternal truth of scripture and 'secular' scientific studies, I am into
cognitive processes more particularly what makes ppl think the way and how they
think, what makes them to think and act upon their thoughts. The scriptural
connections of God's truth to the study of man and our physical world
constantly seeing those connections, sometimes it gets me into trouble cause I
seem to make connections that neither historic nor modern Baptists (though
historic too) do or have made, then that causes problems, but I read scripture
and see connections, now, that alone doesn't mean that my connections are not
simply products of my own prejudices etc, but still, it remains difficult for
me to read passages and not have a flood of passages come to my mind.
Again, thank you for
your very kind words.
Dallas
Thank you Brother
Joe. I appreciate your kindness and encouragement. I ask your prayers on my
behalf. I know what you mean concerning FB. It is good to see you posting your
thoughts from scripture on here, that is the purpose of this group, it is not
to prove one wrong and another right, at least in my view, it is to study
together that we may see iron sharpening iron.
Dallas
(I'm only about 6-7
years old------in our Lords eyes through baptism. : ).
This is a wonderful
thought. I made a similar statement once. An elder reminded me that in the
Lord's eyes we are not young, maybe according to obedience we are young, yet by
what we can learn from scripture of the Lord saying things such as, 'thine they
were', I know my sheep, they hear my voice and they follow me, (paraphrases),
then we are no younger than any other in the view of the Lord, but in view of
our timely experience of the Lord we would be certainly young.
Thus, we are young
in the Lord would mean to me that youth is according to our obedience to the
gospel in life experience. We may have been in possession of the Spirit of
adoption several years prior to coming into the strait and narrow way of his
body.
I have thoroughly enjoyed our discussions this evening. God Bless you, Brother Joe
Dallas
I have very little
understanding in any points of scripture but most especially of this point, I
sat for several hours with Elder Roger Campbell and debated and discussed this
point "when he shall have delivered up the kingdom" and with some
other Brethren from the Cookeville Church, I have grown somewhat since that
time in 2004, but my understanding seems often to remain veiled by what I
learned among another order of Baptists and that veil strains my already poor
vision. However, the passage in Heb. 11:13 as Sister Penny points out is
without doubt in my mind significant. The primary distinguishing point as many
Primitive Baptist Elders have instructed me, if I remember correctly, shows us
in 1 Samuel 8:1-22, the kingdom of God is Eternal and Timely, we see there
Israel rejecting the reign of God, yet they remained in the kingdom of God,
only rejecting his reign in time, this too is the throne of God that 'became'
the throne of David, given then to the Son of David, a greater one than
Solomon, thus, we see the parallel lines of the Kingdom of God and of Heaven in
both time and Eternity...but my wading out into these depths perhaps only
serves to muddy the waters more.
Dallas
I would have to
study it further too. However, I am led to this thought, what was it that made
Israel to adulterate their pure religion? Is that same thing a plague upon
God's people in our present time?
It is, I think,
never easy to 'come home' once a son, you are an heir of the King, yet in the
pig sty of this world, even if such a son does come to his senses, it requires
overcoming the desire(s) of the flesh to leave even that place, the nature of a
pig enjoys walloring in the mud...we in our flesh are sometimes
indistinguishably, so the difficulty level remains the same, the overcoming of
our separation from the kingdom in time is the willingness to return to our
Father's house and be satisfied with the status of a servant.
Dallas
I agree with your
Brother Joe, however, we often fail, God does not fail us, when we fail it is
important to have the witness of the saints of the Scripture and those around
us that can serve as a continual reminder of the faithfulness of God, we still
have this treasure (even the treasured experience of walking with our God who
daily expresses His loving nature to us), in earthen vessels. For this reason,
I think it is good to study and understand the experience of the saints of old.
Hulan
Dear Bro. Sing Lau,
There are NO different degrees of rewards IN HEAVEN.
All benefits
acquired by man, are found in this TIMELY or GOSPEL Frame.
Hulan
Mark, Eternal heaven is an
inheritance. Rewards are the result of labour sown. We can only reap where we
sow. We sow here in time and thus reap in time. Christ alone could sow in
heaven, mortals can't sow there.
Sing
Brother Hulan, thank
you for your straight-to-the-point comment!
One related
question:
Is the time between
death and resurrection in the TIMELY realm or the ETERNAL realm?
Sing
Brother Mark, at
death does a saint receive his inheritance of eternal heaven, or will that happen only at resurrection?
My mind has been on
this subject... whether 'hell' is an extension of TIME up to the return of
Christ, when ETERNITY for man begins. Just thinking.
Mark
At the death of the
body, the soul/spirit is perfected and is instantly in eternal heaven in the
presence of the Godhead. At that point the soul/spirit is no longer subject to
time. The body does not experience eternal heaven until it shall be glorified
and perfected on resurrection day.
Sing
Thanks. I do
presently believe that too.
Is 'Abraham bosom'
and 'paradise' the same as eternal heaven as well?
We use the adjective
'eternal' to describe heaven.
Is there a heaven
that is not eternal?
Mark
Ahhh Brother
Sing.........you do love hard questions! PB's tend to fall into at least two
groups of interpretation regarding "Abraham's bosom". One group
believe it should be interpreted literally. The other group believe it should
be interpreted as parabolic or symbolic language. I am in the latter group. I
do not think that the language in that passage refers literally to eternal
heaven. Yes, I think there are other heavens than just eternal heaven. When the
Spirit of God blesses with His felt presence, wherever one is becomes a
"heavenly place."
Mark
If you think about
it a bit Sister Penny, I think you will come to the conclusion that
"rewards of grace" is an oxymoron. Since that kind of expression does
not accurately convey either reward or grace, we should try to find words that
better describe what we are trying to convey.
Mark
Trusting, believing, and the exercise of faith are all sown labour when you think about it for a while.
Mark
Time certainly shall
continue until the Lord shall effectively and efficiently declare that time
shall be no more. Who is and who isn't subject to time until that final timely
moment comes has been often debated. Ability to recognize time and being
subject to time are not the same thing.
Sing
Thanks. I am just beginning to learn... which explains the questions. I am very thankful for this electronic means of learning from the more learned saints. I am hundreds of miles behinds the PBs and need to learn from them.
And I am seriously
thinking that the disembodied state before glorification at resurrection is
still in the timely realm... I can't prove it yet.
There are all those
warnings about hell directed at the disciples. Surely there is some
significance.
I am beginning to
see that TIME extends right up to the coming of Christ, with respect to EVEN
the saints that have slept! May all giberrish!
Mark
I believe that there
is an eternal hell. I also believe that sometimes we experience "hell on
earth". I think some of the Lord's warnings to his disciples concerned
experiencing "hell on earth".
Mark
When the Roman army
surrounded Jerusalem in 69 AD, all those inside that city were, in my
estimation, in "hell on earth".
Sing
It seems that
'heaven' between death and resurrection and the heaven after resurrection are
different and distinct heavens; and the 'hell' between death and resurrection
and the lake of fire after resurrection are also different and distinct.
I am beginning to
see, maybe just hallucinating [sic], that there is a timely hell after death
for God's children, just as Christ warned so often. Maybe... just hell while
they live, as you say. That's what I believe so far... but it is being
challenged by what I read in the Scriptures
And I am wondering whether hell and the lake of fire are distinct. The emptied hell was cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:14.
Mark
Some blessings are
entirely of grace. Some are the result of obedience.
Mark
Bro. Sing, I have
not been able to find a Scripture warrant for belief in a so-called 'intermediate
state'. If you find a Scriptural warrant for such a belief, I would be glad to
see the presentation of your study.
Sing
The Scriptures speak of hell often, but not once about eternal hell. There is 'eternal fire' once (Jude 1:7), and there is everlasting fire. There is the lake of fire after the general resurrection. Anyway, I am just tossing all these things in my head and seeking answers.
Mark
Bro. Sing, have you
ever read the historical account by Josephus regarding the siege of Jerusalem
in 69AD?
Sing
I believe the state
of a man after death and before resurrection, and his state after resurrection, are different and distinct... whatever we call it. Does that need proof?
Benjamin
Not trying to ya or
nay, just drawing from the essential basis for special recognitions.
The scriptures do
say much about certain ones of the patriarchs and matriarchs. That said the
scriptures also overlay, so to speak, the foundations of the Old, New Testaments and the New Church Kingdoms' entrance with the recognition of the patriarchs,
matriarchs and the apostles.
It is easy to see
that the scriptures are used by some, who, likely for carnal support, define
this as being some form of merited eternal recognition. Indeed, we have support for this time world, for so long as it stands, to give acknowledgement to those
who did carry terrible burdens and suffered so much for the Gospel of God. And
then we have what is commonly referred to as the "Mount of
Transfiguration." The Apostles not only recognised those gone before, who
spoke with Jesus, (Having never seen them or any image(s) of them), there
was discussion about building a symbolic place of worship in their names.
We will appear,
"As we are known in the purpose of God," in eternity, what that is
and why we will be recognised as ourselves and not others is not scripturally
definite. I do believe this, yet it is not of somewhat value other than to
acknowledge who and what we are or were by the grace of God.
For me, these are peaceful thoughts, for our mental and emotional selves, are not going to be whitewashed, so to speak into an unrecognisable instance of us, ignoring who we became by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the Grace of God.
Sing
Mark, I have read some...
I have an old copy of the 'Works of Josephus.' Anything specific? It was pathetic
and horrendous - a mother actually ending up eating her own child. O that
perverse and wicked generation was the most demon-possessed generation... not
only their hatred against the Messiah, but also their suicidal mode when under
siege!
Mark
Yes, read some there
about the valley of Gehenna. In the very place that the Israelites sent
children into the sacrificial fires of idols, the dead bodies were thrown
during the destruction of Jerusalem. Horrendous indeed. The valley was entirely
filled with the dead bodies and those bodies were set on fire so that more
could be thrown in there. Consider that as you think about the lake of fire.
Sing
What does Ecc 12:7
prove? Please state the specific application you wish to make. Is this speaking
of all men? And is 'returning unto God' the same as entering ETERNAL heaven?
Pj
Bro. Sing, I often
ponder over the state of man between death and resurrection, also.
Sing
PJ, and what is the
product of your musing?
Mark
Brothers and
Sisters, my ponderings are done for this evening. Enjoyed the discussions!
G'night!
Dallas
Brother Sing, I can
see your point of the distinction between the Lake of Fire and Hell, the
scripture does tell us that 'death and hell' shall give UP the dead that are in
them,
I am satisfied to
believe that hell is the grave, it is possible to suffer hell on earth, which
in that sense of the word is likened to suffering, if not death itself, the
continual knowledge and fear of death or dread of it...this is, to me, the
result of disobedience in the child of God, for Christ came to deliver us from
the bondage of the fear of death in which we were held by satan; further, I
understand that the term 'hell' has come to be recognized by some as the same
place as the lake of fire. I have no problem with that recognition, it remains
that in making this distinction one would have to clarify a continual
acknowledgment of literal hell, or else would seem to be denying the existence
of the place, not saying that is what I think you are doing, but this is how I
developed my thinking along what I believe to be similar lines as yourself.
In regards to any
intermediate state, I have not grasped hold of that idea for reasons we
discussed earlier; I simply believe as Paul stated, to be absent from the body is
to be present with the Lord, while being in the body means being absent from
the Lord in his Presence and Glory.
I do understand your
thinking I have considered this many times, but I am unable to cling to any
idea of an intermediate state.
The present body,
even of the wicked will be resurrected by the power of Christ's resurrection, I
believe by His resurrection even the wicked will be raised, though in a body
prepared for everlasting torment in the Lake of Fire, I believe their torment
will be as it were in the Presence of the Lamb and His Angels whom they hated
in their carnal bodies, I believe that is also taught in the book of
Revelation, I think chapter 14.
I would not hold to
this dogmatically were Brethren to find disagreement in it, but I believe it.
As to intermediate states, I cannot now say anymore toward that as I just do
not see it.
Sing
Brother Dallas, whatever we want to call it, the state between physical death and the resurrection on the one hand and the state after resurrection are most certainly distinct and different... as different as the disembodied state and the glorified state.
Pj
It is unsettled in
my mind. I want to believe that the spirit of man returns to God upon death,
but I feel other things tugging at my soul.
Sing
There is only one
mention of the 'lake of fire' in the Scriptures. And everlasting fire is NOT
spoken of in connection with it.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the
dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another
book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of
those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave
up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which
were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and
hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Mt 25:41 Then shall
he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into
everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.
"Everlasting" is by nature in the realm of time; it lasts as long as time lasts.
Preston
Mark 9
4 And there
appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. 5 And Peter
answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us
make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
Here is an example of where at least 2 chosen by God are....
Dallas
Well, for the spirit
returning to God that gave it, would it not be an eternal state at that point?
The present body is dead because of sin however we look at it and unless the
Lord returns prior to my death, my present body will see corruption in the
grave, yet for Christ in me the hope of Glory, I know that my redeemer liveth
and I shall see him in the last day with my own eyes and not with
another...seems to me, the eternal state begins at the moment the spirit is
absent from the body and present with the Lord.
Pj
My spirit is with God
now, so is yours.
[sing: with God in the paradise or in heaven?]
Sing
Joe, no one is
talking about eternal torture. That WON'T begin until one is cast into the lake
of fire at resurrection.
Dallas
Yeah, brother Sing,
though I may be in error on this, I believe Hell in that context is the grave
that will be cast into the lake of fire; I believe this is part of His having
put all things under his feet, death being the last thing, where is the abode
of this body dead because of sin? the grave...
Brother Pj, I understand your statement, I think the Lord now dwells in us by His Spirit and we in that sense are in His presence, but I don't think we are now in His Eternal Presence, that would involve the fullness of His glory, we have a sight of this when we are lifted up to heavenly places as Brother Mark spoke earlier, there are I think varying degrees of this experience; yet I do not believe that constitutes my spirit now being in the eternal presence of God in the heavenly place constituting the Holy of Holies. Just my thinking perhaps, but it is where I am at.
Sing
Sister Penny, flee
far away from the corpse of 'soul sleep' please!
Dallas
I did make mention
of it from Revelation 14, I think of the eternal torment of the wicked, in
relation to the bodies of the wicked being resurrected and prepared for that
eternal condition.
Pj
Lazarus and the rich
man were not asleep! Moses and Elijah were not asleep!
Pj
Interesting
thoughts, Bro. Dallas.
Dallas
Yeah, Sister Penny
Karn, but I don't see that as being in the eternal presence of God now. I do see
that eternal seed as preventing my ultimate fall, but when I do fall, I am in
that sense separated from the joy of the Salvation of the Lord, hence, David's plea
for the restoration of that joy, hence, the idea that the saints can experience
'hell' on earth in their life experiences, if I am now in the presence of the
Glory of God, all that is passed wholly away, the full realization of the Glory
of the Godhead.
Pj
It is better to not
know, Penny... Lest your mind become corrupted by its poison.
Sing
If at death Lazarus
entered eternal heaven, wouldn't his resurrection by Christ back to this earthly
life be a big setback?
Dallas
Yeah, but it is
likewise good to know that your mind not be usurped by the seeping of poison...
Dallas
I have read that is
true Brother Sing, the Jews I think by Josephus reported that all the days of
his life after that event, Lazarus was saddened.
Pj
My mind meditates on
that one, Bro. Sing...
Pj
Soul-sleeping... Oh,
boy...
Preston
Joh 11:15 And I am
glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe;
nevertheless let us go unto him.
Make sure we read all of the story of lazarus ........
Preston
Joh 11 KJT
11 These
things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth;
but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said
his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit
Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest
in sleep.
14 Then said
Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
15 And I am
glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe;
nevertheless let us go unto him.
Mark
Psychopannychism is
commonly called "soul sleep". It is not a true Biblical doctrine.
Here is the dictionary definition.
Theology: the
doctrine that death causes the soul to sleep until the day of resurrection.
Sing
Sister Penny, you
asked, "What is "soul sleeping" everyone disdains?"
You have expressed
it, "Blissfully unaware of anything on earth, or in Heaven for that
matter."
And that is simply
not true to Scriptures.
'We are asleep in
Jesus' simply means we shall be awaken at resurrection. It is not meant to
teach 'soul sleep', i.e. a state of existence when one is 'Blissfully unaware
of anything on earth, or in Heaven for that matter.'
Mark
Ok, now I am really
headed to bed! G'nite!
Dallas
His body wasn't in
heaven, but his spirit was immediate in the presence of the glory of God, this
is how I believe Paul teaches it and the why of the reason I disbelief soul
sleeping, Christ did speak of Lazarus as sleeping, but I think he was speaking
of his body, in the grave not of his spirit and or soul sleeping. Or else the
testimony of Paul in saying to die is gain cannot be taken until after the
resurrection, it is not until the resurrection that the full redemption of
body, soul and spirit are realized by the power of holiness raising us from the
grave to wit the redemption of our bodies (at this time our bodies are adopted
into the family of God) at present, our body is dead because of sin, but the
spirit is life because of Christ. That is the distinction, at my death, it is
my ground of hope and faith that my spirit shall be immediately in the presence
of the Lord in His Eternal Glory and Godhead, my body will remain in the grave
until 'time' is ended according to God's appointed purpose, then My body will
be resurrected, the fullness of the redemptive work of Christ will be
accomplished in His putting death under his feet.
Mark
Y'all are keeping me
up! It is all your fault so y'all can explain it to Cheri in the
morning........... Heavens no we do not believe in free floating souls on
earth..............! We believe that the soul/spirit at the death of the BODY
goes directly and instantaneously into the presence of God in eternal heaven!
Dallas
Jesus saved us from
many things, in many ways, but first he saved us from our sins, he saved us
from the bondage of the fear of death, he saved us from the fear that death is
an ultimate annihilation of our bodies and souls and spirits, look at Paul's teaching
concerning those who sleep in Jesus, he is referring to the resurrection of the
body, then in that sense, the body does sleep, though it is death of the body
because of sin, but the soul and spirit of man redeemed is immediately in the
presence of the Lord and the fulness of the Godhead, as he, the Lord is the
fulness of the Godhead bodily, this is the Eternal Glory of God.
[Jesus' redemptive works saved His people from the lake of fire. Proof:
Rev 20:15 "And whosoever was
not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." That is, whosoever was found written in the book of life was NOT cast into the lake of fire but ushered into the eternal heaven.]
Mark
AWAKE! Just like me
now ...... LOL.
Dallas
Yeah, awake. good
night Brother Mark, (Sister Penny, the resurrection is related to the body, not
the soul/spirit). At present our bodies are not part of the family of God by
the Spirit of Adoption, this is why Paul speaks in Romans 7 & 8 of the
warfare between the flesh and the spirit of the new man created in us, in the
latter passages of Romans 8, Paul shows us the whole creation groans with us
waiting to witness the redemption of our bodies, that is the resurrection, when
the body shall experience the adoption into the family of God by the Redemptive
work of Christ.
Mark
The body "sleeps"
or is at rest in a sense at death. At the resurrection the body is reconsituted
and in a moment - the twinkling of an eye - that corruptible body is glorified
and made like unto the immortal and glorified body of Jesus Christ. Body, soul,
spirit are then reunited, meet Christ in the air and are transported to
immortal glory by Christ!
Dallas
Gotta get off for a
while, g'nite Brothers and Sisters, love ya'll.
Sing
Mt 25:46 And these
shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
===========
These words
OBVIOUSLY imply that up till that point no wicked has entered into their
everlasting punishment, nor the righteous into life eternal.
Is this a fair
inference?
The eternal state
does not begin until resurrection and the judgment day.
The question: in
what state were they in then?
Good nite, even
though is just past noon here... 12.24pm!
Hulan
Dear Bro. Sing, at the point of natural death – Ecc. 12:7 is very clear.
The body goes back
to the dust of the ground TIMELY, till the 2nd Coming and End-Time, then – Phil. 3:21; 1st John 3;2; However, the SOUL and SPIRIT go immediately into Heaven’s Pure World into the very Throne Room
of the Godhead, alert, awake and aware, enjoying the bliss
of Eternal Life RIGHT THEN.
Sing
Dear Brother Hulan,
Ecc 12:7 says
'spirit' but you say 'soul and spirit.' Why?
Mt 25:46 informs
that eternal life is entered and enjoyed at resurrection...
I am beginning to
see that things just don't measure up to the Scriptures! Very disturbing!
Hulan
Elder Bro. Sing Lau,
There is NO Scripture teaching or even implying
SOUL-SLEEPING. The
Soul and Spirit are awake, alert and aware
of their NEW
Surroundings in Heaven with Eternal Life ONLY, without
any TIMELY
influences whatsoever.
Sing
I am puzzled! What makes you think
I am even thinking of soul-sleeping!
Does the hard truth that eternal life is entered and enjoyed at resurrection necessarily and inevitably lead to a soul-sleeping fable?
Hulan
Dear Sister Penny,
Read Heb. 12:5—11 - Herein we find that TIMELY Chastisement
from God is GOOD FOR US. It may seem like “non-joyous”
and is “grievous” during the chastening.
However, the end-result is peaceable fruit.
Pj
When we die, our
soul returns to God and is not asleep. Our bodies sleep, but our souls arise.
Then, on the resurrection, our bodies are raised incorruptible and are reunited
with our souls.
Pj
I should have used
spirit instead of soul in my last comment.
Dallas
1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit
and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus
Christ.
Paul evidently shows
a distinction in our body, soul, and spirit. This is why I speak accordingly in
phrases including body, soul and spirit, or spirit and soul, or soul and
spirit, etc.
I don't know why others use the terms in this distinction, or if they don't, I do not know why they do not.
Hulan
Bro. Sing Lau, I was
not accusing you of anything. Several minor
points. 1. Ecc. 12:7
does only mention “spirit.” Now since we
cannot SEPARATE the
Soul and Spirit - Heb. 4:12 – Only God can
separate them. Then
I conclude that they BOTH leave the DEAD
BODY at the same moment. If not, then where does the SOUL go? Not to sleep, but it also is awake, aware and alert.
Next, 2 - Eternal and Everlasting both come from the same Greek Word - Eternal has no beginning nor ending, but Ever- lasting does have a beginning and no end. So CONTEXT is the only key to this understanding – such as John 3:15-16 – employs both words.
Next and last 3. There are varying degrees of TIMELY Benefits and Blessings for the more Obedient, such as the EARNEST OF our inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession (including the Body) – Eph. 1:13-14 - The word UNTIL - expressly is the BODY – Rom. 8:23. EARNEST means – payment afore-time – a Spiritual or Heavenly taste, with understanding from the TRUE Gospel – Rom. 10:8
Sing
Brother Hulan, I didn't feel
accused at all <LOL> I am just puzzled
how the two thoughts are connected???
Anyway, when the
spirit and body are in union, we have a living soul. That's non-negotiable!
'And the LORD God
formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath
of life; and man became a living soul.'
Man does not have a soul; man IS a living soul, of body and spirit in union.
Hulan
Dear Bro. Dallas
Eaton, The ETERNAL STATE begins at the POINT OF
Regeneration the New
Birth – It is a MYSTERY - Col. 1:27.
Hulan
Dear Sis. Penny, the
CONTEXT of John 11:11-14 – is expressly referring to the BODY, for
that ONLY is what Jesus Resurrected from the Grave –
John 11;39—44. At this point the SOUL & SPIRIT of Lazarus came back into his BODY. His SOUL and SPIRIT were not dead.
Dallas
Thanks Brother
Hulan, I would not argue or disagree with that, but the body remains dead even
in regeneration of the spirit, I view the eternal state as in the Presence of
the Glory of God.
I would not argue
against your statement, but I would maintain that this present body of flesh I
possess will not be the same eternal glorified body I shall be raised in,
therein is the distinction I personally make, while I am at present (if
regenerate) in an eternal state, in the flesh, I am not, the argument can be
made, I think, that further the soul is eternal, so, the inner man, whether
quickened, or dead, that inner man is in an eternal state.
Time is of no
consequence as to whether I believe or disbelieve, except that where I am
regenerate, I then am able to believe the truth, otherwise outside my condition
of quickening, I remain in an eternal state of death in trespasses and sins.
Jimmy
Then this concludes
that the breath of life (soul and spirit) are eternal for all, sheep and goats,
of which they will be separated on the Resurrection day according to God's
Word!
Hulan
To All - Only the
BODY sleeps in DEATH ref. the Child of God.
Notice in – Matt.
27:52 – After the Death of Christ on Calvary’s Cross – we find that
MANY OF THE BODIES THAT SLEPT AROSE.
Chase Harrison
"Any way, when
the spirit and body are in union, we have a living soul. That's
non-negotiable!"
Bro. Sing, If this
is always true and non-negotiable, then how do you explain the spirit and body
of animals being united as one, yet we obviously believe that animals do not
have souls?
"Who knoweth
the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward
to the earth?" - Ecc 3:21
Hulan
Dear Bro. Dallas
Eaton, You are pleasant to discuss with.
There can be NO
ETERNAL STATE OF DEATH for the BODY, after Regeneration.
Eternal means “death would never end.” In the
End-Time – 2nd Coming RESURRECTION of the Body, it is
CHANGED (not the Soul & Spirit, which has already been
changed and becomes the INNER man at the Point of
Regeneration – John 5:25).
1st Cor. 15:50---51; Phil. 3:21 - ONLY THE BODY. Yes, the INNER MAN is in an ETERNAL State even in the CORRUPT BODY – Read: Rom. 7:24-25.
Dallas
Thank you Brother
Hulan, I agree and further believe 1 Cor. 15 indicates to us even the wicked
shall be resurrected to Everlasting torment by the same power of the
resurrection of Christ for the Glory of God
1 Corinthians
15:20-26 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of
them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the
resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall
all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he
shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have
put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he
hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed
is death.
Bill
I can't help
wondering if folks who believe in "no-hellism" think there is such a
thing as "soul sleep?" I DO NOT believe Brother Sing is in any way
suggesting soul sleep, nor no-hellism.
Hulan
Dear Bro. Dallas, Yes, to your statement immediately below.
Paul states in 2nd Cor. 12:1-2 – that “whether in the body, or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth – such an one caught up to the third heaven.” Notice Paul did NOT say he did NOT KNOW, but he could NOT TELL, as proved by Verse 4. The point is that Paul’s BODY was not in the 3rd Heaven, but His awareness – Spirit & Soul were keenly aware. This also proves there are THREE heavens.
Hulan
Sister Penny, If the
soul and/or spirit sleeps until the Morning of the Bodily Resurrection,
the explain the teaching of – 1st Cor. 6:17 – This context does NOT
teach anything about the body.
Hulan
TO ALL, DEATH simply means
SEPARATION, not elimination into non-existence.
When the SOUL &
SPIRIT depart the Body, the BODY becomes dead and inanimate.
Sing
"Any way, when
the spirit and body are in union, we have a living soul. That's
non-negotiable!"
Bro. Sing, If this
is always true and non-negotiable, then how do you explain the spirit and body
of animals being united as one, yet we obviously believe that animals do not
have souls?
===========
Context, context,
context, Sir!
God didn't make
beasts LIVING SOULS.
He did make man a
living soul.
Man IS a living
soul. He does not have a soul, he has a spirit.
Hulan
Dear Sis. Penny, the
RESURRECTION is for the BODY to be RE-ENTERED with Life, but CHANGED from
corruption to incorruption, from natural to spiritual, from weakness to
strength, from an earthly image to a heavenly image – 1st Cor. 15:42---50.
The body is re-entered
by the PURE, RIGHTEOUS and HOLY Soul & Spirit and
re-united WITH THE
changed body – Phil. 3:21; 1st John 3:2.
Hulan
Dear Bro. Sing,
Your statements below need some modifications. Eternal Life enters
the Child of God at the point of the Regeneration and New Birth as the
INWARD Man, and that never dies, but does LEAVE THE BODY at
the point of SEPARATION therefrom. It is not re-united until the
END-TIME and 2nd Coming of Christ. The Judgment Day is the
pronouncement of the CHANGE OF THE BODY and reuniting of the
Soul and Spirit to the Changed Body, and this all happens to those
written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.
Rev. 20:12—15
Hulan
Dear Bro. Sing Lau,
Matt. 25:46 is referring to the MOMENT of the 2nd Coming and
End-Time when ALL BODIES (John 5:28-29) are resurrected, then
Matt. 25:31—34 takes place, then Verse 46 takes place. This
all happens in a moment and twinkling of an eye – 1st Cor.
15:51-52.
Hulan
SOUL - DEFINITIONS
Buck's Theological
Dictionary:
SOUL: That vital,
immaterial, active substance, or principle, in man, whereby he perceives,
remembers, reasons, and wills. It is rather to be described as to its
operations, than to be defined as to its essence. Various, indeed, have been
the opinions of philosophers concerning its substance.
Oxford Universal
Dictionary
SOUL: The seat of the
emotions; The spiritual part of man considered in its moral aspect or in
relation to God and His precepts. That which has immortality and survives after
death and as susceptible of happiness or misery in a future state.
Noah Webster's 1828
Dictionary
SOUL: The spiritual,
rational and immortal substance in man, which distinguishes him from brute
beasts; that part of man which enables him to think and reason, and which
renders him a subject of moral government. The immortality of the soul is a
fundamental article of the Christian system.
Hulan
To All, There will be no
animals, birds, fish, etc., in heaven – Read: Ecc. 3:20-21
Hulan
Dear Bro. Joe,
Ref. Animals – go read WHY ANIMALS DIE, since they have NEVER sinned -
Gen. 6:5—7 - God was so distraught and angry at MAN’S SIN in Adam,
till he not only destroyed mankind, but the animals also.
According to God’s
Will only EIGHT SOULS (beings) survived the Flood.
Gen. 7:21.
Incidentally, the word SOUL in the K.J.T. is taught more than ONE way - The ENTIRE
Human-Being; ONLY a 1/3 part of a Human-Being.
Many Scriptures on request for this declaration.
Dallas
Romans 8 would align
with Gen. 6 as well, I think.
Sing
Brother Hulan, Death is separation,
Life is union...
When spirit and body
are in union, there is living soul, there is the state of vital union.
When man and God are
in union of fellowship, there is the state of vital union with God. It is not a
separate entity.
Hulan
Bro. Joe C., Rom.
8:29—33 only includes HUMAN-BEINGS and NOT all of them.
Read = Rom. 9:11-13.
There is a great difference in – Ecc. 3:20-21 as to the totally different
directions the SPIRIT of Humans and the SPIRIT of Animals
goes. This cannot be
mis-understood. Your TOTAL attention, Soul, Spirit and Body will be 100
% attentive ONLY to the GODHEAD including PRAISE, ADORATION and HONOR
to Jesus Christ, your Redeemer.
Dallas
Brother Hulan,
correct me if I am wrong, the word creature in Romans 8:18-23 is referring to
the creation, the whole creation being subject to the fall, the whole creation
is subject to death, the whole creation groans to wit the redemption of the
bodies of the saints in the resurrection, will this be the new heavens and netw
earth that is spoken of in verse 21? I do not believe animals will be in
heaven; but doesn't these passages at least indicate the whole of God's
creation is groaning now, awaiting to witness the adoption of the bodies of the
saints in the redemption of the body which is complete at the resurrection? How
shall they '... be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious
liberty of the children of God...' knowing they are not to be found in heaven.
Pj
I think the topic
has digressed...
Cheri
The topic always
digresses eventually, but this one is still edifying. enjoying reading!
Hulan
Dear Bro. Eaton, The
WHOLE CREATION in this particular CONTEXT of Rom. 8:22 is that of
the GENTILES and the JEWS together, and not the natural
elements. Verse 23 proves this CONTEXT as it specifies = “And not ONLY THEY
(The Gentiles), but ourselves (The Jews) also.”
The Jews were the FIRST-FRUITS of the Spirit.
Hulan
Dear Sis. Penny, I
agree with you completely ref. the CHURCH is the CONTEXT.
My only point is
that found in 1st Cor. 6:17- He that is joined to the Lord is ONE SPIRIT. This
shows that the NATURAL Respiratory BREATH OF LIFE merges with the HOLY
SPIRIT when we are IN THE SPIRIT - IN CHURCH. Incidentally, I am
going to post some points on the SPIRIT vs. the SOUL.
Hulan
Dear Sis. Penny,
since you are aware of the THIRD Heaven, would you care to DEFINE the
1st and 2nd Heaven?
Hulan
Dear Sis. Penny,
your conception and analysis of 2nd Cor. 12 has many correct points and
is with depth of understanding. However, you cannot have a 3rd
ANYTHING without there being, first ONE & TWO.
So, I will send you
my analysis, prepared many years ago, and has been approved by
many Old Line P.B.’s as being correct, so I will publish it
separately.
Hulan
Dear Sis. Penny
Karn, Please send me your E-MAIL Address so I can send your my
analysis on THREE HEAVENS.
Hulan
Dear Sis. Penny, You
have listed a multitude of danglings, which must be answered
individually, as each is connected, but please do not MIX
ETERNAL and TIMELY
factors together. I will deal with each of your points as I have
time today.
Love Only the Truth, Rightly Divided.
Hulan
Dear Sis. Penny,
Ref. you FIRST paragraph.
Rom. 9:11—13 has
clear and definite teachings, and concisely presented in these three
verses the DOCTRINE OF ELECTION, according to the PURPOSE OF GOD,
which automatically eliminates MAN’S WORKS.
SECOND paragraph.
Rom. 9:6-7 – first
notice that there is a vast difference between the GOD OF ISRAEL, and
the ISRAEL OF GOD. This latter refers expressly to the TOTAL ELECT
Family of God. Verse 7 = The NATURAL Family of Israel is
fathered by the seed of Abraham teaching us that ALL of the NATURAL
Family of Abraham does NOT represent the TOTAL Elect Children of
God. However, the PROMISE was found in ISAAC as the PROMISED
Child representing - Total Elect Family – Rom. 4:16; and Gal. 4:28. Also,
notice in – Gal. 3:29 – states clearly - That to be Heirs according
to the PROMISE, you must FIRST be IN CHRIST, then are ye
Abraham’s Seed, but only in his son ISAAC.
This further proves that the ELECT and NON-elect are and can be from the SAME NATURAL family, as both Jacob and Esau were both the SEED OF ISAAC – Rom. 9:10.
THIRD paragraph - Being of the flesh, no matter WHO, does not represent the Elect Family of God; however, OUT OF ALL human families is from which God Elected His People, which is an innumerable number no man can number – Rev. 7:9. So Esau is a NATURAL seed only, and only in the family of the FALLEN nature of Adam is Esau found as a seed, but NOT as a PROMISED SEED of Isaac. Yes, Esau became a great nation, but representatively, NOT of the PROMISED seed – Read: Gen. 16 – within these 16 Verses of Chapter 16, we find that Abraham and Sarah doubted THE PROMISE, so they decided to HELP GOD fulfill His Promise, and their carnal WORKS brought forth, through the handmaid – Hagar the mocking Ishmaelite, who became a great nation, and in Verse 12 we find his history – “a wild man.” His hand will be against every man and every man’s hand against him, and he shall dwell in the presence of his brethren.” There is where the ISRAEL OF GOD and the GOD OF ISRAEL were separated, even today, these “seed of” Abraham are the enemy in the Middle East. Lastly, herein, God has NEVER needed the help of man to fulfill His PROMISE of WHO the Elect People are. Now, you ask WHY is Esau listed in the Bible? So you will KNOW there are some who are NOT of the ELECT, but we also know that by the Blood of Christ, OUT OF EVERY kindred, tongue, people and nation are the Elect – Not EVERY, but OUT OF every – Rev. 5:9.
FOURTH Paragraph -
Herein God re-named Jacob to show the difference between the NATURAL
Seed – the Sub-planter – Gen. 32:28; and that of the PRINCE OF GOD
a SPIRITUAL Seed; Also read; Deut. 32:8-9. Herein ISRAEL
(Jacob) represented only SPIRITUAL Jews, and NOT Esau WHATSOEVER. Next,
God HATED Esau, even before he was born, and had not yet done
any good or evil. Does God have a MIDDLE- GROUND temperament?
Hate is hate and Love is Love. This “loveless” is an
invention of man, and not in the K.J.T. of Divine Inspiration.
RELATIONSHIP - You
are either in God’s Family or you ARE NOT. If you are IN GOD’S
Family of the Elect then there is a SPIRITUAL RELATIONSHIP, then
and then only can there be FELLOWSHIP with God, and even
the OBEDIENT Elect child, in the TRUE N.T. Church, we find a
third level of FRIENDSHIP – James 2:23. This is very articulate
Friendship, which only a REMNANT in the True Church has. Read:
Zeph. 3:12-13-14 This is the DAUGHTER OF Zion. Esau was not
even in a RELATIONSHIP with God whatsoever.
FIFTH paragraph - The only person who has the ability, desire, zeal, unction, motivation, inclination or knowledge to WALK WITH GOD are those who are the BORN-AGAIN (Regenerated) Elect Child of God, with CORRECT GOSPEL KNOWLEDGE. This has NOTHING TO DO WITH the PURPOSE OF God’s ETERNAL Purpose of Eternal Heaven, but that of TIMELY GOSPEL Obedience.
To finely and keenly delineate this fine point we do find that Jesus Christ did SET UP THE TRUE N.T. Church according the ETERNAL PURPOSE, which God did PURPOSE, but ONLY IN Christ Jesus our Lord – Eph. 3:10-11-12. Your last (5th) Paragraph is almost perfectly correct, so a BIG AMEN. Finally, I must again stress that Jacob and Esau do NOT represent TWO TYPES of God’s Children, but ONLY WITHIN those of JACOB are found the TWO TYPES.
