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| Have you learned to rightly divide the word of truth? |
John
3:16
For
GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever
believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 17:9
I
pray for them: I PRAY NOT FOR THE WORLD, but for them which thou hast given me;
for they are thine.
GOD
SO LOVED THE WORLD.
I
PRAY NOT FOR THE WORLD.
Is
there a conflict between God the Father and God the Son?
Have the Father and Son disagreed?
Jackson
Nope,
two different worlds 🙂
Ernesto
Verse
in John is referring specifically to the apostles. Context is so important in
rightly dividing. Most just repeat what their traditions say ...over and over
again. Like a blind parrot!
Sing
What
are the two different worlds?
Jackson
World
of believers (3:16), and world of unbelievers (17:9)
Also, consider where the LORD said the world hated him before it hated us. Why would everyone hate him if he died for everyone?
Sing
Which
passage is referring specifically to the apostles?
Sing
The
world that God so loved was NOT a world of believers!
Ernesto
V9-20
is for apostles..the 11 present. Verse 20 proves this. And in verse 21....what
does 'world' mean there? Thanks.
Jackson
The
prayer is for the apostles then for those who are converted by their preaching,
the "world" in verse 21 is world of believers.
Sing
-
The ‘world’ God so loved, is also the ‘world’ that God gave His only begotten Son
to save; no more no less. There is the world that God so loved and saved by His
Son (Jn 1:29, 3:16), there is a world that Jesus did not love nor pray for (Jn
17:9), there is a world that is in enmity against God (James 4:4). Know the
difference!
-
But the word 'world' also indicates their spiritual condition - a 'world' that
lies in death and condemnation because of sins. That's the ethical sense of the
word 'world'. His love was shown to such of the world.
Excerpt
from here:
https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2011/12/for-god-so-loved-world.html
Things
New and Old: For God so loved the world...
Johnny
No
way. "I have come to do the will of the Father." "No one comes
to the Father, except by me." God gave Jesus pre-eminence over all things
spiritual and physical. "Why do you call ME good; only the Father in heaven
is good." Jesus and the Father a… See more
Ernesto
Feel
like I'm watching the gymnastics of the special Olympics. All I hear is man's
tradition being repeated. Like u memorized an Arthur pink book and believed it
as infallible truth. Sorry to see this. 🙁
Mark
For
those of you who want the word 'world' in the Scripture to always mean all of
humanity, please explain this verse to me: Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a
world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the
whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of
hell.
I'd
sure like to know how you fellas are gonna get all of humanity inside a single
human mouth.
Ernesto
No
one is saying it exclusively means all humanity. This is about RIGHTLY
dividing. This last comment was very childish at best, or just plain dumb!
Mark
Were
you one of 'those who want the word 'world' in Scripture to always mean all of
humanity', or just too dumb to see the exclusionary qualifying phrase?
Johnny
Are
there scholars or knowers of lexicon to say, the distinction. Not me.
Ernesto
No.
Sing
The
Scriptures are self-interpreting. You don't need to wait for the 'scholars or
knowers of the lexicon' to teach you!
Mark
That
was not the point, Matthew.
[A certain Matthew Ong has deleted/retracted all his comments.]
Ernesto
It's
funny how things never change...Before I was involved with calvinists groups...
all that seems to happen is arguments such as these... Thank you for reminding
me how thankful I am to no longer be deceived by tradition and man's
theological opinions. Peace! Jesus also warned of that. Nullifying the word of
God for the sake of tradition...what a shame! Heresies must come! It's His
plan.
Mark
Mt
10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send
peace, but a sword.
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world
giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be
afraid.
Perhaps
you will rightly divide the above for us Ernesto.
PJ
Ernesto,
no one on this thread is Calvinist.
Scripture
is quite plain that God has chosen a people for eternal glory. If you have a
problem with that, you go take it up with God.
Ernesto
I
never said I did. I do have a problem with the twisty turnies I see on John
17. I am leaving this thread. Don't like it when it sounds like an argument. Like I
said...Peace.
PJ
Prove
it has been twisted here.
Ernesto
Read
what I wrote. In John 17 when Jesus says he is NOT PRAYING FOR THE WORLD. He does
not mean that he is not praying for every person...NOR is he saying he is
HATING the world he is NOT praying for...Because in V21 he states his motive
is THAT THE WORLD BELIEVE!!!! In John 17:9 Jesus states that this particular
prayer is FOR THE ELEVEN APOSTLES THAT WERE PRESENT. ADIOS!
["I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine." If Jesus meant to pray for the eleven apostles, would he have said, "I pray for THESE"?
If Jesus prayed just for the eleven, then are you saying that God has given JUST these eleven to Jesus, and none others? Jesus said He prayed for them whom God the Father had given to him. "Them which thou hath given to me" must be more than just ELEVEN apostles.]
PJ
The
simple interpretation is that the world he did not pray for in verse 9 cannot
be the world for which He prayed in verse 21.
[v9
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given
me; for they are thine.... v21
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they
also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Mark
Hasta
la vista.
Ernesto
Jesus
loves you all
PJ
Do
you love Jesus? (I suspect you do.)
Mark
The
question is whether or not He loves the entire human race.
Ernesto
Yes.
Thanks. Good day. I believe His love surpasses all understanding! Including
yours
Grant
God
refers to the 'world' in two main ways:
1.
all who dwell on the earth (John 3:16, Mark 16:15), or
2.
the evil system that rules the 'earth' (John 15:17, John 17:14. 1 John 2:15,
James 4:4)
Johnny
Sing.
I am not intending to be sarcastic, by are not eyeglasses a blessing from God,
a tool to allow the reader to see, so that understanding can come from the
words read. Why would not the ACTUAL WORDS, as Jesus was quoted in Aramaic on
occasion, be a tool in clarification of the distinction of the English worlds,
spelt exactly the same (for example, "world" and
"world"). I dare say none of us, regardless of how much we would want
to know the truth, would ever on our own, know the distinction of the English word
"love," considering there is not such word in either Hebrew or
especially, Greek. I am not so proud of my ability to read and understand, as
to ask others, skilled with others of God's tools.
Ernesto
Grant: When the bible states God loves the world...this is all humankind? His love is
manifested by propitiation according to 1 John 4:10. We know also that 2 Corinthians 5:19 says God reconciled THE WORLD unto himself by the death of Christ...do
you believe these words? I do! It is Good news! Man needs to be
reconciled...that's why we know the gospel is for all men, EVERYONE! We let all
know that God did this in His Son and it is accomplished!
Johnny
@Ernesto.
What of the unfortunate (better maybe to ask, those not blessed with the Word,
as we), that have never "heard" of God's love, much less the concept
of reconciliation. Are all these of Satan's evil world because of their
circumstance. How was it, for example, was Noah righteousness, in a world
consumed ONLY by evil. I'm not asking, because I know the answer. But Noah, and
the rural child in India, are comparable, are they not, in their likelihood of
"hearing" so that they may believe. If anything, I agree with
you, so that others might at least think outside their convenience. And, I still
don't know what a Calvinist, is. I'll never Google it to find out. Name callers
will have to say to my face, what they think of my comments. Keep true to the
Word, as the Spirit leads you.
Grant
Jesus
was not semantically dyslexic. It's the same world, Jesus was just praying for
his disciples as they were not 'of the world'.
Johnny
Bill
Clinton, an attorney and president, very smart, and able to speak well. He
pretended to not know what the meaning of "is" is. I think all of us
know. Yet, other two-letter words; why have a problem with those, then. I'm
meaning, "of" and "in". If I came from Jupiter, my home
planet, to Earth, would I say "I am of the world, Jupiter." And would
I not also say, "I am in another world, Earth." Of course, I'm
rambling. Right?
Grant
If
you want to significantly change the meaning of a noun (ie 'world'), you put an
adjective in front of it. For example, the 'Christian' world or the 'non-Christian
world. Note, Jesus didn't differentiate how he used 'world'.
Johnny
@Grant.
That does not speak to the righteous, non-hearing individuals, loved by God.
Does this have to do with these, the "world" of Christians, or
non-Christians, as you view the scriptures.
Sing
Matthew
Ong, where were you when Sungai Dua Church learned the truth from the NEW KJV
those truth who hold today, and which KJV preserve??? We learned the truth
WITHOUT the KJV, and having learned the truth we discovered that the KJT
preserves that truth in its translation.
Where
were you Matthew?
I
was using the lexicon to show a stiffneck man like you that the single word
"hell" is translated from 'hades,' 'sheol,' 'gehenna,' and
'tartaroo.'
Ignorance
is no bliss, Matthew!
[Matthew Ong deleted/retracted all his comments.]
Sing
If
you want to significantly change the meaning of a noun (ie 'world'), you put an
adjective in front of it. For example, the 'Christian' world or the
'non-Christian world. Note, Jesus didn't differentiate how he used 'world'.
==========
Why
must a word need the qualification by using adjective?
Haven't
you heard the THREE rules of interpretation:
The first rule: Context
The second rule: Context
Third
rule: Context.
There is no need for adjectives. Context - immediate, and larger context is enough. Scriptures is its own interpreter because of these THREE rules.
Kenneth
Vaughan
Does
John 17:9 imply that Jesus never prays for the world? It seems to me that He is
referring to who he is praying for in a specific prayer. For instance earlier I
prayed for the persecuted church. At that time I was not praying for a sick
child. Does that mean I dont ever pray for sick children and I am in
disagreement with those who do? Absolutely not, only fallacious logic would
lead one to believe so.
Grant
1.
The lack of a differentiating adjective is the first context. 2. The immediate
surrounding verses are the next context. 3. Similar passages by the same author
are the third context. 4. Similar passages by other authors is the last
context.
By
any context 'world' means either all the people on the earth or the world
system. It never means a select group within the world: that is known in the
Bible as a 'nation' or a people ie gentile.
Johnny
To
risk the philosophical, world, must mean humanity. The old testament, from
creation, through the tower of babel, and the covenant of God for ALL nations,
indicates that ALL humanity is God's purpose for creation of life and what we
humans perceive as reality. And, the humanity is divided into the righteous,
and the unrighteous (not ultimate righteousness in the spiritual sense, but
being a person of God, or not (whether the person knows of God, by nature, or
by teaching). So, my question, one I have wrestled with since early teen, is
the requirement to hear the Word, believe it, and so on, to be Christian, and
as most Christian divisions of the church, including Catholic, believe, that to
be saved. This NEVER made sense to me, to think God would place creatures on
the earth, simply to live their lives, and be in hell for eternity, the only
option available, since Judaism and Christianity were never available to them.
The "world" conversation, would lead into the "world"
meaning those saved, and "not of the world", the saved. The
explanation of foreknowledge, election, and predestination (all terms in scripture
never explored by my group of Christians), makes sense to my meagre mind, of
God's nature, better than any before. Not starting a new topic here, comments
welcome of course, but I believe all should continue to seek truth, even if
they think they know it. It satisfies my personal understanding of God, which
the work-atonement, by self, from having "heard and believed (at a minimum
of work), simply cannot reconcile with God's other characteristics,
particularly, "love."
Sing
All
humanity is embraced in the covenant of creation.
Not the whole of humanity is embraced in the covenant of redemption,
But
the elect ALONE, that is, as many as God gave to His Son to redeem; not one more and not
one less.
Johnny
Sing,
don't get me wrong, I do not THINK that redemption is automatically provided
for every human, nor necessarily of every nation. What would be the purpose of
universal salvation, and if such were to exist, how would the explanation of
hell, and negative eternal outcomes, be explained away. I have been told as a
15 year old, that the church has the responsibility to preach the gospel to the
entire world, because if we don't, all the world will go to hell, if they have
not "heard" the gospel (given to apostles). Somewhere along the way,
I asked, will what about those that couldn't possibly hear, because they were
on islands in the sea, not possible to reach. Their answer, "God will take
care of that." In other words, don't THINK.
Sing
Grant, There
is a major, and chronic Jewish fable - that God loved the Jews only - that had
to be overcome in the NT. Even the apostles were infected for quite a long
time... until they were finally cured.
The
word 'world' needs to be understood in that context. It is not just the Jews
that are embraced in the redemptive purpose of God, but men of every ethnic
group of the whole earth. Not even all the Jews were embraced in the
redemptive purpose of Go. 'For they are not all Israel, which are of
Israel."
It
has never meant every human/all people of the earth. That fable flies in the
face of the plain truth of God's election of some, and leaving the rest to the
just desert. It repudiates the particularity of the work of redemption, and the
specificity of the application of the same by the Holy Spirit.
It
does mean men of every ethnic group and not just the Jews.
Here
is a classic example of the Scriptures is its own interpreter of the word 'world':
Re
7:9 "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could
number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the
throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their
hands..."
That's a wonderful description of the 'world' - of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues.
Sing
Johnny, 'Ya, God will take care of some, and men will take care of the rest.'
Those
taken care of by God will be secured in heaven.
Those
taken care of by men, let them twist their fingers and hope for the best.
Just
thinking a bit! <LOL>
Johnny
@Sing.
Your last is the conclusion I have come to, yet the same answer received
earlier just a bit more detail. And, the Primitive Baptist explanation may be
nothing more than godly speculation, but it is the best view of God's nature
that I have heard, and that not until a couple of years ago on Facebook. Do you
take the scheme to include "the righteous" of every nation, to
include those "taken care of by God," as the elect (not work, having
the heart of God, as King David), rather than God's arbitrary selection from
which he has foreknowledge? I'm getting off-topic. God did say, "To whom I
wish mercy, I give mercy." That's still a mystery.
Sing
What
scheme?
Sing
So,
Matthew, does the one word 'hell' - translated from different Greek words - has
the same meaning?
You
believe in verbal inspiration don't you - even when a word is singular or
plural is inspired?
So
why did the Holy Spirit inspire the holy writers of Scriptures to use four
different words... just for variety, perhaps? And why did the KJ translators use
the same word 'hell' to translate those four different words?
@
"According to your belief that a legally justified righteous saints can
end up in hades or sheol, where they are tormented after their physical
death."
The
fact is... it is NOT my belief YET. I am studying and weighing what those
passages teach where Jesus warned His disciples the real danger of being cast
into hell.
What
do you do all those passages that WARNED the disciples to avoid being cast into
hell? Is that just some empty warning? Deal with those passages first, then we
can discuss this.
Johnny
scheme
- a series of actions, for a particular purpose. Above, God's salvation of man.
Sing
Do
you take the scheme to include "the righteous" of every nation, to
include those "taken care of by God," as the elect (not work, having
the heart of God, as King David), rather than God's arbitrary selection from
which he has foreknowledge?
=========
God's
purpose of redemption embraces His elect of every nation... who by nature are
dead in trespasses and sins. The Triune God Himself ALONE takes care of ALL His
elect - in effectually calling each one of them, at His appointed and approved
time, out of their native state of sin and death to that of grace and
salvation, perfectly fitting them for eternal glory.
This same Triune God appointed the gospel ministry for the temporal good of His children... and this is done through human instrumentality. Some of God's children are recipients of these temporal blessings, others don't. Those who do, benefit to varying degrees.
Johnny
Well,
I don't know if it matters, "elect of every nation," means there is
at least one individual from each nation, or that from all nations, elect
exists. Maybe "goodness" (God), was and will be within each nation,
for God's purpose. There are righteous (as I have used the term) in Muslim
nations, as there were likely in ancient nations during OT times. If so, the
calling of these at God's time, would be different than the preacher or teacher
spreading the Word, even today. So, I'm left with this being a spiritual
concept, not be to completely understood. Like creation. We will never know HOW
He did it, while human that is, we believe by faith that He did. It's just that
some do not wish to believe this. That's ok, but I'd like to think, I have been
blessed with some explanation, rather than, they are all in hell, if not
members of "the true" church.
Sing
There
are God's children found in every ethnic nation... and in every RELIGION...and
they are God's children solely and completely by the God's sovereign saving
activities.
The
gospel ministry is ordained to call out God's children from among them.
Very
many in heaven have never been members of any church on earth. Many have never
even heard of the gospel...
Johnny
Makes
sense to me. King David, after all, as a youth, showed the heart of God, and
God said it himself. Though from Abraham
Johnny
's
seed, there were no religions, no churches, and only judges and the priest. The
OT describes others from other nations, conquered by Israel, having
righteousness. God is the same today, as He was when He created man, and
certainly Muslim peoples, for instance, the follow the godly portions of the
Koran, may well be included as the elect. That would also go for those never
knowing of God, except for "nature," it's wonders, and the inborn
knowledge of right and wrong. Bad to kill without a reason; Good to feed your
friend. By the way, I have learned this 4 decade question, from folks of God,
like you, Sing. Thanks to Him, and you'll. (That's Texan, for ALL of you).
Johnny
"You
all," is also in the Bible. We just shortened it.
sing
All
are conceived in sin and born in sin... and grow up in sin... find themselves
born into all sorts of religions, and embrace all sort of religions. Of course
some pretend themselves as atheists!
In
such conditions, God effectually called them out of their native state of sin
and death to that of righteousness and salvation. In the effectual call, each
man is justified personally, regenerated, adopted, indwelt by the Holy Spirit,
and perfectly fitted for eternal glory.
In
that sense, God's children are found in every religion. It is the purpose and
function of the gospel to seek them and call them out and convert them to
Christ's religion.
