May I inquire?
Rev
20:11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face
the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
What
is the heaven that fled away?
Is
it the heaven in Gen 1:1?
"In
the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth."
Thank
you most kindly.
----------
Danny
I'll
admit that I haven't given "the heaven fled away" much consideration.
I've always thought it had reference to the glory of God being manifest to such
a degree that even the host of heaven had to back away from it. That's a
simplistic answer. As to whether it is right, let every man be fully persuaded
in his own mind. I suspect what others have thought on the matter might be
interesting if not enlightening, as I have often discovered insights lurking in
places that I have not explored.
Kelvin
In
short, I believe the answer to your question is yes, this is the heaven and
earth created in Genesis 1:1. Rev 20:11-15 is the great white throne judgement.
It is where the non-elect are judged. Notice how John says in verse 12, “I saw
the dead”. The regenerate, elect children of God are never referred to as dead
in an eternal sense. After the return of Christ, the goats must stand before
Him in judgment and the only thing they have to be judged upon is their works
(Vs 12-13). Praise God we will never have to stand before the throne of God in
the end and answer for our works because Christ stood in our place and was judged
by the Father for us. So yes, when Christ returns and the heaven and earth
created in Genesis melt in the presence of His glory, we will be with Him
body, soul, and spirit and the wicked will be cast into the eternal lake of
fire. A supporting text for the “heaven that fled away” is 2 Peter 3:10:
“But
the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens
shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent
heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”
Sing
Thank
you for your thoughts.
It
seems that:
"from
whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for
them" (Rev 20:11) is
quite distinct from distinct from
"in
the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements
shall melt with fervent heat... burned up." (2Pet 3:10) Here, heavens is
in the plural!
Gen
1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Rev
20:11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face
the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev
21:1 ¶ And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the
first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
I
don't see how 2Pet 3:10 is related to the three passages above.
I
read 2Pet 3 as Peter's reminder and warning on the impending destruction of
Jerusalem in AD 70.
Shine
Sing
F Lau 2 Peter 3:5-7, 10, 12
5
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens
were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6
Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in
store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly
men.
10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the
heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with
fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
12
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens
being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent
heat?
I
think these verses certainly are referring to the whole earth, and both space
(universe) and the sky (first heaven) and Judgement Day by their words.
Sing
Shine, I have written a few words here:
https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2009/10/lord-is-not-willing-that-any-should.html
The
Lord is not willing that any should perish
Shine
Sing, it does seem you have a lot of evidence for 70 A.D.
Here
are quotes from the Letgodbetrue website that defends the belief that it is
referring to Final Judgement Day:
"Peter
had specifically identified O.T. prophecies about His return (I Pet 1:3-13).
In
context of Christ’s coming, Peter had repeated it in this epistle (1:16,19-21).
"And
saying, Where is the promise of his coming (v4)."
The...
preterists tying everything to 70 A.D. is denied right here.
"But
the heavens and the earth, which are now (v7)."
A
covenant change is nonsensical in context and had already occurred! which Paul
and Peter had identified well (I Peter 2:4-10; Heb 8:1-13; 12:28-29; etc.).
Elements
is here to deceive them (Gal 4:3,9; II Pet 3:10,12). Yes (Eze 14:1-11)!
They
deny real events in Rom 8:18-23; Heb 1:10-12; or similar places, for none
occurred in 70 A.D., leaving their ideas bankrupt of any purpose or validity.
"Reserved
unto fire (v7)."
This
reservation is connected to hell as follows next (II Pet 2:4,17; Jude 1:6,13).
"But,
beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing (v8)."
This
is the second of three answers to preterists that claim everything in 70 AD.
The
first answer is that the material, physical earth has not been destroyed.
The
third answer is that the perceived delay is for a very good reason (3:9).
"Not
willing that any should perish (v9)."
The
perishing is not Jerusalem’s destruction, for that event was 600 miles over the
Mediterranean, not in context, and could hardly affect this audience.
The
perishing is not practical stumbling, conscience conflict, or offence about
liberties, since not in context and far too minor (I Cor 8:11; Ro 14:15).
Peter
just used perish in 2:12. Those reprobate false teachers are the unjust that
are reserved to the Day of Judgment to be punished (II Pet 2:9,12).
"In
the which the heavens shall pass away (v10)."
Jesus
Christ’s return, His second coming, will burn the present heavens away.
The
flood was similar, destroying the earth, but this the heavens also
(5:7-9)..."
A
few ways I see the passage as referring to Judgement Day and eternal salvation
is that verse 9 says the Lord is not willing that any of the beloved elect
perish; so, it is a guarantee that they will not perish because God is not
willing.
Just
like in Romans 9, it is Gods will for vessels of wrath to perish and vessels of
mercy for glory and this cannot be changed.
And
verse 15 saying the longsuffering of the Lord IS salvation, meaning to me that
salvation is guaranteed by Gods longsuffering for all the elect to be born and
saved.
Like
1 John 2:2 saying Jesus IS the propitiation for our sins; not possibly, nor an
offer.
Also,
verse 4 refers to the beginning of creation when both the heavens and earth
were created and so verse 5 refers to the "heavens" (space and sky)
and the earth when only the earth was destroyed, already bringing the heavens
into context for the following, whereas, the *whole* world perished before; I
believe the verses are keeping the same context for the amount of the world
that is perishing, that is, the *whole* world will perish again, and that this
time, it will include the heavens as well - space and the sky (the whole
universe). Also Revelation 21:1-2 would back up a new earth and heaven
referring to the after life rather than this world.
Sing
Shine
Maybe when I have as much light as he has, I may believe the same way!! 😊
Shine
Sing, I left out a crucial part in my last paragraph about verse 4 that I added
if you want to read it again.
Sing
Shine, I have studied through that whole sermon notes on 2Peter. I can perceive many inconsistencies.
