https://web.facebook.com/photo?fbid=10205909367028791&set=a.1182086067794
Choose whom you will fear, but make sure you know the
consequences.
Matthew 10...
1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples...
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them...
16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of
wolves...
17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the
councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for
my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light:
and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not
able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul
and body in hell.
The Lord Jesus Christ was addressing His twelve disciples
throughout the whole chapter. How is the warning - fear not men, but fear God -
to the disciples to be understood?
Doesn't the warning PRESUPPOSE the real possibility of
the disciples fearing men rather than fearing God? Otherwise, isn't the warning
rendered completely irrelevant.
What is the reason the disciples are to fear God, and not
men?
What is the intention of the warning to the disciples?
1. Disciples, if you fear God, and thus disobey man, this
will happen:
- you will suffer the displeasure of men who are only able
to kill the body; the loss will be minimal.
2. Disciples, if you fear man, and thus disobey God, this
will happen:
- you will suffer the displeasure of Him who can
destroy both your soul and body in hell; the loss will be great.
I have recently heard that the effect of the warning is
this:
3. Disciples, you have no need to fear men because God
can destroy both their bodies and souls in hell!
What is your thought?
----------------
Robert
#3 is a mis-characterization of my position, Sing! Christ
is reminding ALL those gathered to hear him speak not just disciples There was
a great multitude that followed Him, They were astonished but not all
disciples. the message being preached was a message of repentance to the
Jews(Matthew 4:17) of that nation, hence only found in Matthew, Mark, Luke,
and James one reference each this warning is to the Jewish nation, the
Everlasting Fire could very well be The destruction of Jerusalem. To teach that
the redeemed of Christ having been PERFECTED forever perverts the justice of
God! We suffer here in time for our (the elect) sins and after death, we go
straight to be with the Lord, Genesis 49:33, Deuteronomy 32:50.
Sing
No intention to mischaracterise your position at all.
That's the way I understood what you said.
Robert
I know that already about you! I meant no harm!
Sing
It is obvious that the Lord is addressing the TWELVE
disciples. If there is a dispute about this, then we have to settle this first.
Robert
Sing he is addressing the Multitude with the Disciples
present also. Matthew 7:28-29, begins at 5:1 He seeing the multitudes he went
up into a mountain and his disciples followed him this discourse goes on non
stop til we reach Chapter 7:8 it is plain to those that understand the audience
included the Disciples but was not limited to them.
Sing, the first Time Jesus spoke these words he spoke to
all hearing the reference I gave, Your question came out of Matthew 10 which is
very similar to The Luke 12 account, and again Jesus is not saying if you
forget who to fear you will burn in hell, but it is a comparative statement of
actual encouragement by the surrounding context, of WHOM has the greater power
and care for them, so not to fear the lessor man. I originally was focus only
on the Matthew 5:1-7:29 reference, sorry!
Sing
The Sermon on the Mount is addressed to the disciples
too. It didn't matter if others were present. If you were addressing your sons,
your words were intended for your sons, and not their friends who were around.
Men would waste words on redundant things.... Christ
Jesus doesn't. Why would He waste words warning the disciples of the real
danger of hell is there was no possibility of them landing themselves there?
For those still dead in trespasses and sins., the Scriptures whisper, "there is no fear of God before their eyes." Rom
3:18. It's stupidity (i.e. lacking common sense) to insist that the solemn warning is addressed to those who are INCAPABLE of fearing God.
Robert
Again Sing, I contest your interpretation of the words
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul:
but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
It is a reminder to all those hearing, That the greatest power supersedes the
lessor, who is on your side is the context, the hairs of your head, the
sparrows are ye not greater value than sparrows, it is a comparison, to
encourage that their God is of greater power than those who only kill the body.
This is the theme of Luke 12, Matthew 10 the key is in verse 22 He that
endureth to the end shall be saved, If your interpretation is true than Peter
went to hell also, because he was fearful of men denied the Lord in Public. He
was by the way one of those being instructed, on the events in question. Peter
never mentions that he has to first go to hell than at the Resurrection will be
allowed in heaven, 1 Peter 1:3-5.
Robert
Sing Jesus was not warning his disciples of a hell as you
speak He was in a comparative sense reminding them though man may threaten you
His Father has the greater power, You are trying to overthrow the perfect and
complete atonement because we are complete in Him, by forcing a doctrine on a
few verses that seem to imply to you that God redeemed children will still
suffer beyond this life until Resurrection day, That my friend is gross error.
Sing
Robert, Christ's perfect and complete atonement saved His
people from the lake of fire. And hell and the lake of fire are distinct. Rev
20:13-15.
Robert
Sing the word hell is like every other word in Scripture
it must be rightly divided based on context and precept I am not denying hell
exists nor am I denying the grave exists, what i am denying is that the elect
will spend anytime in a place called hell that the non elect do! Your
understanding puts the elect in a place called hell!
Sing
Robert Yes, that is why Christ solemnly warned His own
disciples about hell and to take drastic measures to avoid it; He never once
warned them about the lake of fire. He redeemed them from the lake of fire. It
is that simple to me.
[You have just conveniently dismissed the solemn warning of Christ to the disciples because you don't like what is said!!!]
Robert
Sing I replied to this very line of argument above 5
years ago. I knew what you teach and have demonstrated why I believe you are
wrong, maybe going back and reading Romans 8 the entire chapter that focuses
on the axiom taught in verse 33.
Sing
Robert, Romans 8:33 KJV — Who shall lay any thing to the
charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
God's gracious act of justification saved a man from the
lake of fire, not hell.
Deliverance from the eternal lake of fire is eternal
salvation.
Deliverance from hell requires the obedience of God's
children to do the will of the Father.
Rom 8:33 doesn't help your argument.
If a man refuses to distinguish temporal hell and the eternal lake of fire, he will remain confused! A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology
Robert
Sing, Sure it does. your contention is that God holds His
children guilty after physical death yet the text denies your assertion, as a
matter of fact, the entire chapter does. You are trying to force an intermediate
state between physical death and the last day that the word of God does not
support, "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"!
I offered you an explanation above for the text that warns the disciples but you
have now for five years ignored it for your own opinion so have at it and let
God be that Judge.
Sing
Robert, I set plain Scriptures before you that Christ
warned His own disciples to take drastic measures to avoid hell, but you want
to believe that there can be no hell for God's children... as though Christ's
redemptive work is to deliver His people from hell. Scriptures say Christ's work
delivered His people from the eternal lake of fire, not the temporal hell.
He wasted all his solemn warning on hell on His
disciples.
Stalemate, Sir Robert!
Robert
Sing I agree stalemate my brother! 🙂
Sing
"We suffer here in time for our ( the elect) sins
.."
Looks to me like the wicked among the "we" have
a great time on the broad road!
The broad road leading to destruction at the end of the broad road - the intermediate hell, before resurrection to glory.
