 |
| Manuel said, "when God requires faith of the reprobate He does not require of them to believe Christ died for them; rather, He requires of them to forsake trusting in their own works and to trust only in Christ and the mercy of God." Therefore - when God requires faith of the reprobate... - He DOES NOT require them to believe Christ died for them... - Rather He requires... to trust only in Christ and the mercy of God. [That's typical logical fallacy and madness! sing] |
September 4 at 2:21pm
Michael
I am now a member of Hope PRC Redlands, Ca
Brian
Congratulations Michael. Someday you will have to tell me of your theological and soteriological journey.
John
Congratulations brother Michael!
Manuel
Great to hear!!
Sing F Lau
Hey brother, Congratulation!
I have often heard the PRC being slandered as hypercalvinist. Why is that? Honest inquiry.
Manuel
@Sing Lau: the people slandering this way are "Calvinists" who believe God loves everyone and wants to save everyone, and who believe that Arminianism is simply "a less pure version of the true Gospel".
They feel in their conscience rebuked by the PRC's faithfulness to Scripture and therefore have decided that the best way to stop their stinging conscience is to silence and shut out the PRC by labeling them hyper-Calvinists so that no one will give them a hearing. And this way they can convince themselves that they haven't compromised the truth even though they have.
You will notice that many of these "Calvinists" attack the PRC viciously and harshly while they are very nice to Arminians and sometimes even to Roman Catholics.
Brian
Well said Manuel. The PRC are indeed hated and suffer all kinds of vetuperation for the truths sake We are however, comforted in this, that Christ warned us we would be hated for the truths sake and persecuted. We know this and in spite of it see the blessing of God upon our churches that few can compare with.
Sing F Lau
How true, how true, Manuel!
There is a church here in Penang that is associated with the PRC through a ERC in Singapore.
The folks in that church - all formerly new school calvinists - go around slandering us (an old school baptist) as hyper-calvinists.
So I was wondering whether the ERCs have degenerated into new school calvinism or they ignorantly or desperately recruited avowed calvinists as founding members of their church planting here!!!
I met Herman Hanko here a few years ago. I first read of his "History of the Free Offer" way back in the 80s. I read PRC Theological Journal to this day!
Manuel
@Sing F Lau: Which church exactly is that? Because there is a church in Singapore that used to be associated with the PRC but are no longer so. Perhaps it's them?
Also, when you say old school baptist, do you believe in duty faith?
Sing F Lau
I googled and found the link here: http://cerc.org.sg/ministries/cgc.htm.
Duty faith is the hall mark of the new school... introduced by Andrew Fuller among the old school baptists, who was roundly condemned as heretic in his days, but is a hero adored by the new school baptists!
I'm not surprised if Mr T and Mr L are duty faith men!!!
I hope the ERC folks have done a proper job to converting them!
Brian
This is quite confusing and needs unravelled.
Sing F Lau
What is confusing?
Brian
Which church is accusing your people of being hyper calvinists?
Sing F Lau
Give me an Elder's name that has authority to investigate, and I will give you all the details you want in private to that end. I hope that's ok.
Manuel
@Sing F Lau: The PRC consider a denial of faith being the duty of the reprobate classic hyper-Calvinism, in accordance with historic Calvinism as defined in the Canons of Dordt:
"Moreover, the promise of the gospel is that whosoever believeth in Christ crucified shall not perish, but have everlasting life. This promise, together with the command to repent and believe, ought to be declared and published to all nations, and to all persons promiscuously and without distinction, to whom God out of His good pleasure sends the gospel." Head 2 Article 5
So the ERC in Singapore is representative of the PRC at this point and correct in labelling those who deny duty faith "hyper Calvinists".
However, I personally consider Free Offer and common grace a far worse error than a denial of duty faith. And I can also empathise in part with those who deny duty faith when part of their argument is that faith includes assurance, and assurance surely is not part of the reprobate's duty - at this point, and this point only, I agree.
Manuel
Charlie: I'd still like to know if you believe that faith is the duty of all who hear the Gospel, or only of the elect? You never answered this question in our last discussion.
Sing F Lau
"Moreover, the promise of the gospel is that whosoever believeth in Christ crucified shall not perish, but have everlasting life. This promise, together with the command to repent and believe, ought to be declared and published to all nations, and to all persons promiscuously and without distinction, to whom God out of His good pleasure sends the gospel." Head 2 Article 5.
================
This is a good and acceptable statement. May I inquire a little.
What is the promise of the gospel? What does the gospel promise?
Does the gospel promise anything? And unto whom is the promise made?
Or does the gospel declare the glorious truth of what God has done for His people, and THEY are called to believe the gospel, the glorious truth of their salvation by God's free grace?
"The promise of the gospel is that whosoever believeth in Christ crucified shall not perish, but have everlasting life"
May I inquire: does a man believe because he has everlasting life as the result of God's saving activities, or does he believe in order to have everlasting life.
Is the promise, whosoever will believe shall have everlasting life?
Just what is the promise?
Manuel
@Sing F Lau: The part I was referring to was this:
"together with the command to repent and believe, ought to be declared and published to all nations, and to all persons promiscuously and without distinction"
Note: the "command" to "believe" is to be declared to "all persons promiscuously and without distinction". [and you understand that phrase as including the reprobates!]
Not only to "sensible sinners"
Sing F Lau
"Moreover, the promise of the gospel is that whosoever believeth in Christ crucified shall not perish, but have everlasting life. This promise, together with the command to repent and believe, ought to be declared and published to all nations, and to all persons promiscuously and without distinction, to whom God out of His good pleasure sends the gospel." Head 2 Article 5.
==============
To whom does God, out of His good pleasure, send the gospel?
I know that God, out of His good pleasure and for His own glory, foreknew a people, predestined them unto eternal glory.
I know that Jesus Christ, in perfect harmony with God's good pleasure, came to save as many as His Father has given to Him... He redeemed them and no one else.
I know that the Holy Spirit, in perfect harmony with God's good pleasure, applies the same eternal redemption to the SAME people individually and personally - effectually calling them out of their native state sin and death to that of grace and salvation.
I understand that the gospel of Jesus Christ has to do with the SAME group of people.
Has the gospel anything to do with the reprobate? If yes, what is it?
I thought the gospel is the good news of what God HAS DONE to save Himself a people, and the gospel is to call such to believe the truth of their salvation... to believe something ALREADY TRUE of them... i.e. what God has already done for them, and in them!
Why would God command the reprobate to repent and believe in Jesus Christ when He had plainly declared He didn't give Jesus Christ to be their Saviour? Please tell us.
I understand that the gospel declares the fact that whosoever believes has everlasting life... an evidence and manifestation of God's free and sovereign grace. And this wondrous truth is to be declared and published to all who hear without distinction... because God's children are found among all nations. It is God's good pleasure to send the gospel out to His children. The gospel is irrelevant to all others.
Do you personally believe otherwise?
Is your belief representative of the PRC's?
Thank you for entertaining my questions.
Manuel
Before going any further, can you please clearly state for everyone if you believe that "the command to repent and believe, ought to be declared and published to all nations, and to all persons promiscuously and without distinction"?
For my sake please give a short, simple and clear answer. You can explain and defend it in detail after we have established clearly each other's position.
Sing F Lau
Manuel said this, "The PRC consider a denial of faith being the duty of the reprobate classic hyper-Calvinism, in accordance with historic Calvinism as defined in the Canons of Dordt."
He quote CoD Head 2 Article 5 to validate his statement:
"Moreover, the promise of the gospel is that whosoever believeth in Christ crucified shall not perish, but have everlasting life. This promise, together with the command to repent and believe, ought to be declared and published to all nations, and to all persons promiscuously and without distinction, to whom God out of His good pleasure sends the gospel."
I inquire, how does Head 2 Article 5 validate your statement that faith is the duty of the reprobate is historic Calvinism?
Thanks.
Sing F Lau
The answer to your question is very simple.
Kindly answer the questions I asked first. Thanks.
Manuel
"how does Head 2 Article 5 validate your statement that faith is the duty of the reprobate is historic Calvinism?"
Answer:
(a) the Canons of Dordt are the definition of historic Calvinism, being the original Five Points of Calvinism (the 5 "heads" of the Canon)
(b)the Canons (II,5) state that the "command" to "believe" is to be declared to "all persons promiscuously and without distinction". I.e. not only to "sensible sinners" or only to the elect.
Your turn :)
Manuel
Charlie: so you're saying that it is not the duty of the reprobate to believe in Christ?
Sing F Lau
"Moreover, the promise of the gospel is that whosoever believeth in Christ crucified shall not perish, but have everlasting life. This promise, together with the command to repent and believe, ought to be declared and published to all nations, and to all persons promiscuously and without distinction, to whom God out of His good pleasure sends the gospel." Head 2 Article 5.
=============
Your ':)' is pretty smug
You interpret "to all persons promiscuously and without distinction" as including the reprobate. That is not permissible and disallowed by the context.
You have completely ignored the immediate context of the Article.... it is the gospel... and the gospel is relevant only to the certain specific people AMONG all nations, therefore to be addressed to all persons promiscuously and without distinction because it is impossible for the preacher of the gospel to distinguish God's children from the reprobates among the hearers.
Such non-contextual logic will leads one to believe that certain passages teach that Jesus loved and died for the reprobates too!!
If you believe that God commands the reprobate to repent and believe in Jesus Christ as their Saviour, though He has not given Jesus Christ to be their Saviour and Jesus Christ did not die for them, and He did not send His Spirit to regenerate them, then you do believe in a schizophrenic god. I don't!
It is a god who requires the reprobate to believes lies, contrary to his own express will.
You are fighting a shadow when you say, "not only to "sensible sinners" or only to the elect."
Show me a preacher who can knowingly direct his preaching of the gospel to such ONLY?
No straw man please.
Manuel
Actually the context makes it clear that it includes everyone who physically hears the preaching (including the reprobate) since the very next article states:
"And whereas many who are called by the gospel do not repent, nor believe in Christ..."
Also III/IV 8 and 9 state that God demands all who are called to "come unto him", while not all who are called actually do come - God demands the reprobate who hear the Gospel to "come unto him".
You are free to disagree with the Canons but the Canons clearly teach faith as the duty of all who hear the Gospel.
I can understand where you are coming from; and in many cases, when people say that it is the duty of the reprobate to believe, they indeed have a wrong view based on a supposed love of God for everyone; however, when God requires faith of the reprobate He does not require of them to believe Christ died for them; rather, He requires of them to forsake trusting in their own works and to trust only in Christ and the mercy of God.
[notice the plain contradiction here:
"when God requires faith of the reprobate He does not require of them to
believe Christ died for them; rather, He requires of them to forsake
trusting in their own works and to trust only in Christ and the mercy of
God."
Therefore - When God requires faith of the reprobate...
- He DOES NOT require them to believe Christ died for them...
- Rather He requires... to trust in Christ and the mercy of God.
That's typical logical fallacy and madness! sing]
Therefore - When God requires faith of the reprobate...
- He DOES NOT require them to believe Christ died for them...
- Rather He requires... to trust in Christ and the mercy of God.
That's typical logical fallacy and madness! sing]
And this requirement is NOT based on any potential election or sacrifice of Christ for the reprobate, or of a supposed love of God for them (all of which does not exist); it is based purely on God's moral character, which morally demands that everyone (no matter if elect or reprobate) stop trusting in their own works and instead trust in God's mercy (even though that mercy is not offered to them).
[Classic example of a schizophrenic confused god:
even though mercy not offered to them,
yet they are commanded to trust in God's mercy!
This god is worse than a mad tyrant! sing]
Sing F Lau
You can't defend Head 2 Article 5, and you are running off somewhere and invent more fictions!
It is your right... it is your Canon
Let me repeat this and I will end here:
If you believe that God, in His good pleasure does send His gospel to the reprobate, commands the reprobate to repent and believe in Jesus Christ as their Saviour, though He has not given Jesus Christ to be their Saviour and Jesus Christ did not die for them, and He did not send His spirit to regenerate them, then you do believe in a schizophrenic mad god.
It is a god who commands the reprobate to believes a lie, and acts contrary to His own express will!
Apostle Paul knew very clearly that his ministry has ONLY the elect in mind...
"Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory." 2Ti 2:10
Thanks for the exchanges.
Frank
Could we say that God's grace is sufficient for all, but is only effciente for the elect ?
Sing F Lau
I forgot to answer your question: "can you please clearly state for everyone if you believe that "the command to repent and believe, ought to be declared and published to all nations, and to all persons promiscuously and without distinction"?"
===========
Yes, I do. There is no other way the gospel is to be publicly preached to all nations, and to all persons promiscuously and without distinction... for God's children for found among them.
Someone asked a similar question:
How do you evangelize a crowd of unknown people?
[He asked the question with the fictional straw man that in public proclaiming the gospel of God, it is possible to address only the "sensible sinners" or only to the elect (YOUR FICTION TOO) It will become possible only when one becomes divine and know the exact identity of his hearers.]
My answer:
Just like the apostles did, and with the same understanding they had of what they were doing.
Men are called to believe WHAT IS ALREADY TRUE OF THEM... the gospel of THEIR salvation. Such men are ALREADY saved by God... already effectually called to grace and salvation, which is why there is THE GOSPEL OF THEIR SALVATION for them to believe.
Though they DO NOT know who are God's children in the midst of the crowd, they know full well that the gospel message is for God's children among the hearers. Such are called to believe the word of truth... because it is ALREADY true of them... such are called to believe the gospel of their salvation, because they are already SAVED BY GOD. If they had not been saved by God, there is NO NO NO gospel of their salvation to preach to them!!!
It is as elementary as that, Brother .
I do not need to know who are God's children in the crowd to know EXACTLY and DEFINITELY that the gospel ministry is relevant ONLY to such, and that it is irrelevant to all others!
Food is for the living, and not the dead. Jesus said to Peter, "Feed..... feed... feed... " Feeding has to do with the living only. You know that don't you?
============= end of answer.
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/285216034924982
Read it, and learn a few things.
Thanks. I'm done here.
Brother Michael SAINT, thanks.
I'm glad you join the soundest among the baby sprinklers.
Frank
I had it reversed, I meant to say Jesus's life death and ressurection "could" be enough for anyone, but "is" only for the elect, I believe it is for the elect.
The rest of the exchanges here : a few more comments.
https://www.facebook.com/Mr.Otter/posts/253358531451400
