Plain contradictions abound in popular Calvinism.
Only worse in Arminianism
Brother Rocky started this comment... and the friendly exchanges followed.
August 27 at 2:17pm
God's demands of perfect obedience to His laws was not compromised, nor was it adjusted and accommodated to human imperfection and depravity after the fall. His unchanged demand is: Man should perfectly obey God's law in order to be saved. Here we differ from Pelagians, Arminians and Hyper-Calvinists who argue that God’s demands from sinner depend solely in his ability or inability to comply for that demand. The Pelagians argue that since man is capable of obedience, God demands it from him. The Arminians say that since God demands a man faith, therefore man should be capable of exercising faith on his own; while Hyper-Calvinists say that since man is incapable of producing faith, God cannot demand him faith in the preaching of the Gospel. In fine, the solution to the problem is sticking to the original demand of God independent of human ability to obey. The good news is that in our total separation from God being dead to sin, lost and hopeless in ourselves; the Holy Spirit of God in regeneration, accompanied with the preaching of the Word, produced in us saving faith in Christ so that Christ’s righteousness through active obedience to God’s law, and his own righteousness in passive obedience, all was accounted our righteousness upon our faith in Him. The law of God was still obeyed perfectly, and that is not our own but Christ’s but the same imputed to us for our eternal justification.
Sara's
By "eternal justification," do you refer to eternity past or future?
Sing F Lau
There are distinct and separate phases/aspects of justification spoken of in the Scriptures.- eternal justification of all elect by God's decree before time (the old school Calvinists termed this as 'eternal justification.' This DOES NOT mean the elect are personally justified yet!!!)
- legal justification of all elect by Christ's blood on the cross
- vital justification of each elect PERSONALLY by God's free grace at effectual calling out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation. (legal and vital justifications are for eternity, though accomplished, and applied in time. Once justified, forever justified! )
- experiential justification by faith (man's act of believing in Christ) at conversion
- final justification of all God's elect at resurrection.
SO MANY NEW SCHOOL Calvinists do not have a clue of these truths even though they are stated so plainly in their old-school confessions of faith!
A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology.
Sing F Lau
Here we differ from Pelagians, Arminians and Hyper-Calvinists who argue that God’s demands from sinner depend solely in his ability or inability to comply for that demand. =============
Pelagians, Arminians and Calvinists and ANY others who argue that God demands ALL sinners to repent and believe in Jesus Christ as their Saviour must necessarily believe in a schizophrenic, immoral and mad God... WHY?
God declared plainly that He had chosen a people unto eternal salvation, and gave them to Christ to secure their eternal redemption. Christ did exactly that for those whom God the Father had given Him.... and not one more and not one less. The Spirit of Christ, in God's appointed and approved time, applies that redemption to each individual elect...
Only such are called and commanded to believe what God HAS DONE... i.e. to believe the truth of their salvation by God's free grace.
Why would God demand those whom He declared He had not given Jesus to be their Saviour to believe in His Son Jesus Christ as their Saviour?
Bottom line: God does not command a man to believe a LIE in order that the lie may become a truth. NO NO NO, God commands a man to believe what is already true... therefore only the regenerated elect are commanded and are capable of being called by the gospel, to repent and believe.
A man has no warrant to believe the gospel... the good news of what God has done to save His people... unless he is already saved by God... i.e. EFFECTUALLY CALLED unto eternal salvation.
Sing F Lau
so that Christ’s righteousness through active obedience to God’s law, and his own righteousness in passive obedience, all was accounted our righteousness upon our faith in Him.===============
This is a CLASSIC logical fallacy of Calvinists!!!
Just think for a moment... THINK, I said.
Can this even be true at all... that all of Christ's righteousness is accounted your righteousness upon YOUR faith in Him.
Please THINK for a moment.
You are saying that before the righteousness of Christ has been accounted to you, you are able to believe, and in believing, that righteousness is accounted to you.
I know that is STANDARD (new school) Calvinistic belief.
A man without the accounted righteousness of God is a man STILL under the condemnation of sin and death... i.e. he is still a man NOT justified by God, WITHOUT righteousness, still dead in trespasses and sins... THEREFORE incapable of believing.
The righteousness of God is IMPUTED LEGALLY at the cross and APPLIED to an elect PERSONALLY by God's free grace at his effectual calling out of his native state of sins and death... WITHOUT and APART from faith (man's act of believing). It CAN'T possibly be 'upon our faith in Him' BECAUSE, before the application of Christ's righteousness to you personally, you are still dead in trespasses and sins... thus incapable of any spiritual activity.
Sara's
I. Those whom God effectually calleth, He also freely justifieth;(a) not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous, not for anything wrought in them, or done...by them, but for Christ's sake alone; nor by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness, but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them,(b) they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith; which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God.
II. Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification;(d) yet is it not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love...
IV. God did, from all eternity, decree to justify all the elect,(l) and Christ did, in the fulness of time, die for their sins, and rise again for their justification:(m) nevertheless, they are not justified, until the Holy Spirit doth, in due time, actually apply Christ unto them.(n)
Sing F Lau
Thanks for posting these few paragraphs from the WCF. Where is paragraph III?
Take a look at this note on WCF 11
https://www.facebook.com/notes/sing-f-lau/reformed-folks-repudiate-justification-by-free-grace/10150472591353484
Sing F Lau
And take a look here:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/sing-f-lau/the-doctrine-of-justification-as-summarized-in-1689-cof/10150452191328484
Please read some first, and have a feel of the subject... then the discussion would be profitable. Thanks.
Sara's
We are not justified until we are effectually called, granted the gift of faith, and actually believe. Faith is the alone instrument of justification.So are you arguing that faith is the result of justification, and not the means by which it is applied?
Sing F Lau
You said this: "We are not justified until we are effectually called, granted the gift of faith, and actually believe. Faith is the alone instrument of justification."WCF said this:
Those whom God effectually calleth, He also freely justifieth.
See how you have ADDED to what your WCF said???
You have just DENIED and REPUDIATED that God ALSO FREELY - FREELY - FREELY justified!!!
How now?
Faith is the alone instrument of justification. Amen and amen!
In what sense is faith the alone instrument of justification?
What is meant when it is stated that faith is the alone instrument of justification?
How is faith, your act of believing, related to God's act of justifying you?
Does it mean you believe first, then God justify you, or does it mean your believing is the instrument to evidence or manifest the justification that HAS ALREADY taken place by God's free grace when you were STILL in the state of condemnation and death?
Which is which? Please tell us.
And no shibboleths, please! Thanks.
Sing F Lau
So are you arguing that faith is the result of justification and not the means by which it is applied?==========
I'm not arguing.
I'm stating what the Bible says, and what the WCF summarizes.
Faith is an effect and evidence of justification by God's free grace, and it is the sole instrument to EVIDENCE and MANIFEST that justification by God's free grace.
It is not the means by which justification is APPLIED.
It is the instrument by which justification is CERTIFIED, DEMONSTRATED, EVIDENCED, MANIFESTED...
Only the justified is capable of believing...
It is repeatedly declared, "the JUST shall live by faith!!!
A volt-meter is the sole instrument to manifest the voltage that is ALREADY in the circuit... a volt-meter as an instrument cannot bring voltage into the circuit!!!
Sara's
Your tone is condescending and foolhardy.[why don't you stick to the issue at hand, instead of my austere tone!]
Scripture teaches that faith is the means God uses to justify the elect. They are not justified by election, but justified by faith.
God requires faith of us that we might be justified. Eternal ...
justification is nonsense. We are justified by faith, not by election:
Q. 71. How is justification an act of God’s free grace?
A. Although Christ, by his obedience and death, did make a proper, real, and full satisfaction to God’s justice in the behalf of them that are justified;[291] yet in as much as God accepteth the satisfaction from a surety, which he might have demanded of them, and did provide this surety, his own only Son,[292] imputing his righteousness to them,[293] and requiring nothing of them for their justification but faith,[294] which also is his gift,[295] their justification is to them of free grace.[296]
NOTE: God requires nothing BUT FAITH. Amen, faith is the gift of God, which makes our justification free. Yet, if you want to argue that we have faith because we are justified (or that justification is the means of faith), that is bare nonsensical speculation, and out of accord with the Confession and Catechisms:
Q. 73. How doth faith justify a sinner in the sight of God?
A. Faith justifies a sinner in the sight of God, not because of those other graces which do always accompany it, or of good works that are the fruits of it,[304] nor as if the grace of faith, or any act thereof, were imputed to him for his justification;[305] but only as it is an instrument by which he receiveth and applieth Christ and his righteousness.[306]
Perhaps you can demonstrate your theory by some of the divines from Westminster? Maybe the plain language of the Confession requires some contextualization?
Sing F Lau
2. Faith thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification;(6) yet it is not alone in the person justified, but ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but wor...keth by love.(7) (1689.11.2)
+++++++++++++++++
Are you reading and thinking???????
Faith - receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness - is one of all the saving graces (worked by the Holy Spirit in the child of God) that accompany the person justified!!!!!!!
Sing F Lau
Scripture teaches that faith is the means God uses to justify the elect. ===========
No, the Scriptures teach that faith is the means to EVIDENCE the justification that has taken place by God's free grace!
It is, 'the just shall live by faith...'
It is NOT NOT NOT, 'By faith the unjustified condemned dead is justified and live!' But that's what men like you want to read the Scriptures!!!
Faith, man's act of believing, justifies (vindicates, evidents) his justification by God's free grace.
Faith justifies the believing, that they are the justified by God's free grace.
God justifies the ungodly... those under condemnation and death.
Sara's
Does God require faith?
Sing F Lau
That's a sweet question!!!Here is the answer:
John 6 28 ¶ Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Do you know that faith, believing in His Son Jesus Christ, is a WORK, and it is a WORK God requires of His children???
I hope, now you know!
YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES, God requires faith!
But from WHOM?
And for WHAT purpose?
Your turn to answer a few questions!
I'm knocking off. It's 2.10am where I am.
May the Lord deliver you from fables!
Sara's
Faith is, of course, required of all but hyper-calvinists who revise the Confession and Scripture to suit their errors.
Sing F Lau
No, no, no. It is the NEW SCHOOL Calvinists like you who pervert the true role and function of faith in relation to justification. The confession states so plainly that faith is a SAVING GRACE... a grace found in a JUSTIFIED man is an instrument to evidence and manifest the justified state by God's free grace.
But the new school Calvinists like you, as well as the Arminians, have made faith an activity exercised by an UN-justified man in order to secure justification before God!
There is a world of difference between the two!
Rocky
SHH: I am referring to the decreed, present, sustained and once and for all justification the ground of which is the vicarious death of Christ for sinners, and the sole means according to the Scripture i.e., Rom. 3: 28, outside of, and with...out our works, nor that of the law, but by the living faith which works by love and therefore not dead.
Lau: Romans 10: 10 may be enough, to wit, “For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.” This shows us that faith is the sole means of our justification. John Calvin, commenting on this passage says, “This passage may help us to understand what justification by faith is; for it shows that righteousness then comes to us, when we embrace God's goodness offered to us in the gospel.” See? “That righteousness” which is to be received by faith “comes to us, when we embrace God’s goodness offered to us in the gospel” not without the gospel. It is always the badge of Hyper-Calvinists to believe that faith is not required for justification, but rather an effect of it.
Sing F Lau
Rocky... God's act of justifying the UNGODLY - unjustified, condemned and dead - freely by His grace is LOGICALLY and CHRONOLOGICALLY, separate and distinct, from the justified's act of experientially receiving the righteousness of Christ i...n his act of believing.
A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology.
Justification by Christ's blood at the cross, and by God's free grace at effectual calling is PRIOR to justification by man's act of believing.
Enough said. Anything further would not be helpful.
Thanks for the privilege to say a few things on your wall.
Rocky
God’s role in eternity for the justification of sinners, those whom you term “ungodly”, is the act of decreeing justification unchangeably for all the elect and object of Christ’s death, and by his providence willed that they should infallibly hear the Gospel in due time, and by the regenerating power of the Spirit, be born again to be capable of believing for their actual justification. God had to decree the justification of them because He could not actually justify them when they are not in existence. The actual time of justification is the moment of faith by the powerful working of His Spirit.You are welcome to read and enjoy on my wall. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me and our friends.
BTW, are you familiar with Poh Boon Sing?
Sing F Lau
Rocky @ "The actual time of justification is the moment of faith by the powerful working of His Spirit."========
Supposing this statement is true, God's elect who are INCAPABLE of believing will remain unjustified, I.E. remain in their native state of condemnation and death.
How do you cope with that? How are God's elect who are incapable of believing be justified?
You may say:
- either they are justified in a different way... so you would have different ways of justification, or
- there is NO such thing as elect who are incapable of believing in order to be justified.
Let me amend your statement a bit to state the truth:
The actual time of EXPERIENCING the justification that HAS TAKEN place by the free grace of God (at effectual calling out of one's native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation) is the moment of faith by the hearing of the gospel.
Sing F Lau
Rocky, do you believe that God has by His peculiar providence WILLED that ALL the elect should infallibly hear the gospel and believe IN ORDER to be justified by God?The 'ungodly' whom God justifies are His elect who are have personal existence (ALREADY CONCEIVED) but still in their native state of sin and death.
God justifies His elect who are ungodly... dead in trespasses and sin... who are completely incapable of believing but in active rebellion against God.
God justifies the UNGODLY.... God declares them righteous by applying Christ's righteousness to them PERSONALLY, and forgiving them all their sins.
Faith justifies the believers in Christ... their faith in Christ declaring them as the JUSTIFIED by the free grace of God... only the JUST shall live by faith. Justification by God precedes faith!!!
Do you see the vast difference? The gospel of grace has been perverted by both the Arminians as well as by their Calvinist half-brothers!
A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology.
Sing F Lau
BTW, are you familiar with Poh Boon Sing?======
Yes, I was acquainted with him for some years.
He is a typical new-school RB.
Rocky
Thank you for your responses. The use of “all”, in reference to those who are eventually be brought to Christ, through the preaching of the Word, as often employed in the writings of many Reformed divines does except those whom God, by His unsearchable wisdom, were born mentally and physically incapacitated to exercise hearing and faith which include infants who die in infancy, retarded, deaf and the like. In the case of infants WCF: X: 3 has stated: “Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ through the Spirit, who worketh when, and where, and how He pleaseth: so also, are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.”
Your own quoted Confession, the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, in consonant with the Westminster Confession of Faith (1646) has stated the same in Ch. X. 3:
“Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.”
The Bible has often used this word “all” and “whosoever” to refer to people who are capable of hearing the word preached and believing the Gospel. Arminians are fond of criticizing us for limiting that word to a certain group of men; for they must emphasize the “all” to mean all men without exemption. Whereas, we, Reformed and Calvinists, understand the word to mean some men, those who are elect from eternity.
The use of “all”, as I use it also in many of my communications, the understood by the same sense by the Confession. For example the WCF X.1, it is stated: “All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased in His appointed and accepted time effectually to call, by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death….”
Of course, you understand that the Confessions exempt infants and “elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.”
In other words, when I said that all the elect whom God “willed that they should infallibly hear the Gospel in due time, and by the regenerating power of the Spirit, be born again to be capable of believing for their actual justification”, I was consciously referring to those who are capable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
Rocky
I did not have the pleasure to meet Poh Boon Sing. But I wished to meet you all, my Malaysian brothers in Christ. | ||
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Sing F Lau
Here's a little summary of the WCF X - how the 4 paragraphs are logically connected: What is effectual calling? This is what the old-school Baptists summarized what the Scriptures teach.
The chapter on Effectual Call has four paragraphs...
They can be summarized as follows.
- Para 1: The effectual call of ALL elect stated, and defined.
- Para 2: a. The manner effectual call is applied; b. The effectually called elect who are outwardly called by the gospel.
- Para 3: The effectually called elect who are incapable of being outwardly called by the gospel.
- Para 4: Those who are not effectually called, nor predestinated unto eternal life, though outwardly called by the gospel
Read the brief article here:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/sing-f-lau/the-effectual-call-as-summarized-in-the-1689-cof/10150440572718484
We will talk a bit more later. The new school reformed people have messed up what their confession teaches here. I'm serious!
They are gospel regenerationists to a man - because they messed up what is summarized here.
Sing F Lau
“Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ through the Spirit, who worketh when, and where, and how He pleaseth: so also, are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of...the Word.”
=========
The effectual call of ALL the elect mentioned here are ALREADY included in paragraph 1.
Just one question: who are included in "so also, are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word"???????
Please remember the gospel ministry is intended for those sentient children of God... it was not meant for non-sentient children of God.
Are there God's children who are sentient but are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the gospel???
Rocky
There is no objection as to infants being regenerated without the ordinary ministry of the Word. All Calvinists admit that to be true.
Rocky
I must admit I was once a Hyper-Calvinist of the Hardshell type, but through the grace of our Lord was brought back again to believe once more in the Bible by correct and scientific exegesis, especially in rightly dividing the Word of truth. While actually answering you by and bye, I would like to how Hardshell Hyper-Calvinism is characterized by the following common presuppositions:1. That God’s decree of election and reprobation or divine foreordination is not distinguished from Divine Providence; in other words, there is no distinction in the mind of Hyper-Calvinists between potentiality and actual.
2. Hyper-Calvinists understand passages such as Rom. 8: 29 as purely decretive rather than providential.
3. Since Divine Providence is confused with God’s decree, evangelical graces necessary to salvation such as the preaching of the Gospel, faith and repentance are mooted, and, therefore, unnecessary.
4. Hyper-Calvinism is making an absurd and unscriptural hypothesis, to wit, that since man is incapable of believing the Gospel on his own due to total depravity and spiritual death, God cannot demand him faith; and the preaching of the Gospel with an earnest pleading with sinners to believe on the risen Christ is necessarily Arminianistic. This logical fallacy is often, if not always, shared by Arminians, hence God commands him to believe on the ground of his ability to believe on his own.
5. Since regeneration is independent of the written Word and of the preaching of the Gospel, it must be an inner and interior operation of the Holy Spirit and always APART from the ordinary ministry of the Word. While true Calvinists believe that regeneration is not dependent on the ordinary ministry of the Word but may take place, on and with it, and in some cases before and without it, simultaneously in the moment of faith, Hyper-Calvinists make an unnecessary deduction that to believe that regeneration can take place simultaneously in the moment of faith, it makes the Word preached to be the cause of regeneration.
7. Hyper-Calvinists do not usually respect the ordo salutis or order of salvation and fail to put distinctions between them, namely, foreknowledge, predestination, regeneration (effectual call), justification, sanctification and glorification. They make a false assumption that since a person is foreknown and predestinated to salvation, that person must be already justified and glorified. There is no such thing as Saving Faith and evangelical repentance in time. To affirm the necessity of these graces to salvation is to deny God’s decree in eternity.
8. Most Hyper-Calvinists are Supralapsarians. They put the priority of the decree of election of the elect before the decree of the fall; but assuming their logic is correct, the decree of the fall makes God’s election changeable and absurd.
9. Hyper-Calvinism in separating justification from the ordinary ministry of the Word, has given way to the unbiblical assumption that a man can be justified without hearing the Gospel preached in a pagan country, while believing and practicing the best light of his pagan religion as long as he is one of God’s elect.
10. Hyper-Calvinism, in separating justification from the ordinary ministry of the Word, has usually made a neglect of the duty to preach the Gospel of Christ to everyone.
11. Hyper-Calvinists fail to put the distinction between the inner and irresistible call of the Spirit in regeneration and the outward call of the Gospel. Every Gospel call or divine summon is always an inner activity which cannot be resisted.
12. Calvinists believe that all are commanded to repent, and this is ordinarily carried out by the ordinary ministry of the Word in obedience to the Great Commission; this can be often resisted and will always be resisted by the reprobates. But there is also an inner call and irresistible and interior in the soul of the elect which shall unfailingly take place in due time, and the effecting of the same cannot be done by the preaching of the Word but by the powerful operation of the Spirit. This inner call is distinguished from, but not separate in, the preaching of the Word. In cases where the ordinary ministry of the Word is not possible, like those elect who, by the pleasure of God, should be regenerated in infancy and the like, the Spirit of God, in His unquestionable sovereignty, is at liberty to regenerate and justify without the ordinary ministry of the Word.
Sing F Lau
"There is no objection as to infants being regenerated without the ordinary ministry of the Word. All Calvinists admit that to be true."Brother Rocky, now put your statement (which I believe is true) alongside the statement of Christ that declares, "SO IS EVERY ONE THAT IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT."
This is ONLY ONE SAME WAY OF REGENERATION for every elect.
Putting your truthful statement side by side with Christ's declaration, what must be the necessary conclusion?
New School Calvinists insist that the NORMAL way is regeneration WITH the ordinary ministry of the Word; the EXCEPTIONAL way is regeneration WITHOUT the ordinary ministry of the Word.
Such an idea has completely repudiated the biblical truth summarized in WCF.X.
X.I states the effectual call (which embraces justification, regeneration and adoption) of all the elect in exactly the SAME WAY -
X.II states the effectually called who are capable of being outwardly called to conversion.
X.III states the effectually called who are incapable of being outwardly called to conversion.
X.IV states the non-effectually called who come under the sound of the ministry.
The gospel ministry is for the CONVERSION of God's children - those already sovereignly regenerate WITHOUT and APART from the gospel ministry.
That's old-school Calvinism. New school Calvinism is fullerism!
Rocky
The Confession, when stating the elect who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word are the elect who, in His Sovereignty, should be regenerated in infancy, and the deaf and the retarded. Their physical conditions are incapable of being outwardly called by the preaching of the Gospel. As to normal persons, those who reached the age of discretion, who, God in His sovereignty, willed to be regenerated in that stage of reason, regeneration is prior to faith and repentance because sinners who are dead in trespasses and in sins cannot believe nor repent; but the priority of regeneration over faith is chronologically logical only not in time. No true Calvinists and Reformed have ever made a claim that the outward call, by the preaching of the Gospel can regenerate the elect. This calling is capable only of alluring sinners to receive the sweetness of the grace of God and the beauty of Christ, but it cannot regenerate. But there are elect who cannot be called this way because either they are incapacitated by their mental inability or by their physical defects such as the deaf that cannot physically hear the preaching of the Gospel. Since justification is only received by faith alone without the works of the law, these physically and mentally impotent people are justified by the imputation of Christ’s righteousness in them and made to enjoy saving graces without employing the ordinary ministry of the Word. However, this would tempt us to speculate. To go further than that is to commit a serious error. God’s mystery is so deep and inexhaustible that we are not allowed to delve into it. We should be content to believe of God’s method of saving sinful men by the ministry of the Word because there are abundant precedence of it in the Holy Writ.
Sing F Lau
Brother Rocky, I'm glad we could talk about these things... You stated, "...but the priority of regeneration over faith is chronologically logical only not in time. "
Let me understand you properly before I show you that Scriptures plainly contradict your fable!
You and Calvinists insist on these:
1. Regeneration is only LOGICALLY prior to faith (man's act of believing) .
2. Regeneration is NOT CHRONOLOGICALLY (i.e in time) prior to faith (man's act of believing)
3. Therefore regeneration and faith (man's act of believing) are chronologically SIMULTANEOUS.
Am I correct in representing your position? I abhor misrepresentation.
I ask you a question:
- Was Cornelius a regenerated man before Apostle Peter preached the gospel to him and had him CONVERTED? (or was he still dead in trespasses and sins, or was he regenerated and converted at Peter's preaching?)
- Was the Ethiopian eunuch a regenerated man before Philip preached the gospel to him and had him CONVERTED? (or was he still dead in trespasses and sins, or was he regenerated and converted at Philip's preaching?))
- Were those devout Jews (who were gathered at Jerusalem from all nations under heaven for Pentecost) regenerated men before Apostle Peter preached the gospel to them and had them CONVERTED? (or were they still dead in trespasses and sins, or was they regenerated and converted at Peter's preaching?)
Do these biblical examples prove that regeneration is BOTH logically, as well as chronologically PRIOR to CONVERSION (when man believes)??????????????
Perhaps you need to rightly divide between God's act of regenerating His elect WITHOUT means, and the gospel ministry as God's appointed means of CONVERTING His children to the truth of their salvation by His free grace.
 | |
| The converse is true. It's easier to convert an ignorant man to the truth than an illogical calvinist! |
Sing F Lau
Brother Rocky, you said,I must admit I was once a Hyper-Calvinist of the Hardshell type, but through the grace of our Lord was brought back again to believe once more the Bible by correct and scientific exegesis, especially in rightly dividing the Word of truth.
===============
What happened to you is NOTHING new.
Hordes of old-school Calvinists (mistaken by new-school Calvinists as hyper-Calvinists) had defected and degenerated to the new-school Calvinism.
It is very easy to slide down from old Calvinism to moderated Calvinism...
It takes much grace to move upward from the valley of Arminiansim all the way up to the peak of old-school Calvinism. Your Calvinism a halfway between Arminianism and old-school Calvinism.
Many of your 12 points above levelled against what you called hyper-Calvinism are actually the truth summarized in your WCF... what a tragedy!!!
When I have time... I will demonstrate them to you one by one.
Rocky
Brother Lau: Thank you for your reply. It’s good to continue discussing with you about the divine things. In this regard, it is helpful to maintain a Christian spirit in every discussion. And, by overcoming ourselves, even in heated arguments, God is pleased to see us keeping the right spirit. Before answering your questions, I want to make a further comment on the 10th Chapter of the Confession, and in this time, I shall quote AA Hodge’s The Confession of Faith. He summarized beautifully the contents of that chapter by the following:
Sections I and II teach – (1) That there is an internal as well as an external call necessary to save men. (2) Its subjects are the elect only. (3) The Holy Ghost is the agent, who effects it by the instrumentality of the truth. (4) It consists in an effectual act of divine power. (5) It effects a radical change in the moral condition of the whole man.
Section III teaches that infants and others incapable of knowing the truth are regenerated by the Spirit without it.
Section IV teaches (1) That non-elect will perish certainly, but only because they freely reject Christ. (2) Men can be saved only by Christ. (3) In the case of sane adults, the knowledge of Christ and his work is necessary.
Concerning the regeneration of infants and other elect of that sort, AA Hodge comments the following:
“The outward call of God’s Word, and all the ‘means of grace’ provided in the present dispensation, of course presuppose intelligence upon the part of those who receive them. The will of God, also, is revealed only as far as it concerns those capable of understanding and profiting by the revelation. His purposes with respect to either persons or classes not thus addressed are not explicitly revealed.
“If infants and others not capable of being called by the Gospel are to be saved, they must be regenerated and sanctified immediately by God without use of means. If God could create Adam without means, and if he can new- create believers in righteousness and true holiness by the use of means which a large part of men use without profit, he can certainly make infants and others regenerate without means., p. The Confession of Faith 174.
In fine, I think we’ve reached an agreement with the following:
1. That regeneration is only capably done by the Spirit of God independent of the ordinary ministry of the Word.
2. That there were infants, in God’s sovereignty, who were regenerated during infancy.
3. That the sole agent of regeneration is the Holy Spirit, effecting it without the use of means, and therefore not always accompanied by the ordinary ministry of the Word.
4. Justification by imputation of the righteousness of Christ.
I think, it is still unclear if we have reached an agreement with the following:
1. Whether the Scripture teaches that all elect without exception are always to be regenerated in infancy.
2. Whether the Scripture teaches that regeneration is not always accompanied by the preaching of the Word.
3. Whether the Scripture teaches that justification is always accompanied by the ordinary ministry of the Word.
Hence, in answering your question, I maintain the following:
1. That, while some elect infants, as in the case of John the Baptist, are regenerated in infancy, the regeneration of other elect takes place in their age of discretion as in the case of Nicodemus.
2. That we cannot assert, with all certainty, what time Cornelius, the 3000 converts at Pentecost and the Ethiopian Eunuch were regenerated. To assert that they were regenerated in infancy is a pure fancy of the mind. We can only ascertain one thing, namely, that they were all saved by the ordinary ministry of the Word.
Sing F Lau
I will demonstrate to you that Hodges perverted the truth stated in the WCF.X.1I sincerely hope that you will read and study this post to the end.
Raise any objections if you have.
I'm only showing you what your WCF declares. Of course you...
can disagree with my reading of it... but tell us why when you disagree.
I suggest you study the WCF yourself a bit... not what others tell you.
You quoted him:
Sections I and II teach – (1) That there is an internal as well as an external call necessary to save men. (2) Its subjects are the elect only. (3) The Holy Ghost is the agent, who effects it by the instrumentality of the truth.
He asserts that The Holy Ghost effects regeneration by the instrumentality of the truth. Therefore regeneration is conditioned upon the ministry of the word.
Now here is the exact text of WCF.X.i. And read carefully and let it say what it says. The framers were far more logical than their WOOLLY followers.
I. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ: enlightening their minds, spiritually and savingly, to understand the things of God, taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good; and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
1. ALL ELECT without exception is effectually called the same way.
- "All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only"
- Once you introduce an alternative way, you have contradicted the Framers as well as the Lord Jesus Christ - "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: SO IS EVERY ONE THAT IS BORN OF GOD."
- So you need to choose, either ALL ELECT are effectually called by the instrumentality of the gospel ministry, or NONE has been. is, or ever will be.
- The choice is quite easily if one is to believe the truth.
2. "By His Word and Spirit" - His Word is a reference to the second Person of the Godhead... the eternal Logos, the life-giving Word. All the THREE persons of the Godhead are actively involved in the new creation in the effectual call. (And please remember that the effectual call is not the same as regeneration. Your WCF stated so.)
3. No instrumentality of the gospel ministry is mentioned at all in this whole paragraph. No human activity is mentioned at all. It is all the sole activities of the Divine Godhead.
- He is pleased...
- His appointed and accepted time...
- Effectually to call out of the state of sin and death. In the state of sin and what, what possible relevance is the ministry of the word. One would think that the ministry of the word has relevance ONLY AFTER the effectual call is COMPLETED!!! Common sense. But prejudice defies common sense!
- Enlightening their mind that was in the state of sin and death...
- Taking away their heart of stone that was in the state of sin and death...
- Giving them heart of flesh...
- Renewing their wills...
- Determining them to that which is good....
- Effectually drawing them to Christ... UNITED to Christ.
And all these by His ALMIGHTY POWER... plus nothing... and this is TRUE OF EVERY SINGLE ELECT... including all those mentioned in WCF.X.iii.
Am I clear thus far? And do you agree?
A few more words on WCF.X.ii
II. This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from any thing at all foreseen in man, who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.
I hope you are reading up to this point.
1. The fiction of the instrumentality of the gospel ministry in the effectual calling is PLAINLY and CLEARLY excluded... "This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone..." The free and special grace of God alone EXCLUDES everything thing else... even the instrumentality of the gospel ministry.
- The Divine work of effectually calling His elect out of the state of sin and death, WITHOUT exception, is by His free and special grace, without any instrumentality of the gospel ministry.
- The Divine work of effectually calling NEEDS NO assistance of the gospel minister administered by men! The Framers PLAINLY exclude it.
2. The instrumentality of the ministry of the word is IRRELEVANT UNTIL... UNTIL... UNTIL (do you read that word???" - "until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit." The gospel ministry of irrelevant to a man in the state of sin and death, who is completely passive to Godward... but very active in enmity against God.
3. It is the effectual call by God's free and special grace that ENABLES an elect (justified, regenerated and adopted as the result of the effectual call) to answer to the gospel call - "he is thereby enabled to answer this call." Paragraph ii b deals with the effectually called who are capable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the word. Paragraph iii those who are incapable.
- Nothing is offered in the effectual call. Grace and eternal salvation are sovereignly applied in the effectual call of every elect at God's appointed and accepted time. Any offer of eternal salvation to a man dead in trespasses and sin would be the height of mockery.
- The effectual call by God's free and special grace that ENABLES an elect to answer to the gospel call is necessarily DISTINCT, LOGICALLY and CHRONOLOGICALLY PRIOR to the gospel call. They are not interdependent at all. The new school Calvinists UNITED them and produced the monstrous lie of "gospel regeneration" with a whole host of logical fallacies!
4. It is in the gospel call, that the grace of temporal salvation is offered and conveyed - "this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it."
- many temporal blessings are offered and conveyed in the gospel to those who are ALREADY effectually called to grace and eternal salvation by God's free and special grace ALONE... without the instrumentality of the gospel ministry!
Thanks, Brother Rocky.
I don't wish to say further.
You stay where you are comfortable with.
May our Lord bless you richly.
Sing F Lau
Sorry, I need to correct one serious misconception.You stated:
To assert that they were regenerated in infancy is a pure fancy of the mind. We can only ascertain one thing, namely, that they were all saved by the ordinary ministry of the Word.
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Brother, you are quite mistaken.
If you think effectual call = regeneration, you have not read nor studied your WCF yet!!!
You are just parroting reformed shibboleth! I'm serious!
No one asserts that they were regenerated in infancy. You missed the whole point.
Your WCF says that the effectual call is at God's approved and accepted time.
The issue at hand is: The effectual call (which includes regeneration) is LOGICALLY and CHRONOLOGICALLY PRIOR to, and WITHOUT the instrumentality of the gospel ministry.
The gospel ministry is the divinely appointed instrument for the CONVERSION of His children - the elect already effectually called.
Thanks. That's all.
The new school Calvinists have repudiated this Scriptural truth summarized by the old school Calvinists in their Confessions.
Sing F Lau
Brother Rocky, the more I read, the more logical fallacies I see... Sad.New school Calvinists are so confused, so riddled with logical fallacies...
You quoted A A Hodges:
Sections I and II teach – (1) That there is an internal as well as an external call necessary to save men. (2) Its subjects are the elect only. (3) The Holy Ghost is the agent, who effects it by the instrumentality of the truth.
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Take his (1) 'That there is an internal as well as an external call necessary to save men.'
Do you really believe this NONSENSE - that an internal AS WELL AS an external call is NECESSARY to save men?
This statement must NECESSARILY have the implication that those who are incapable of the external call CANNOT be saved in any sense! And this is a horrid error... it contradicts and repudiates WCF.X.iii!
There is a VERY BIG problem here... new school Calvinists CANNOT differentiate the salvation that comes through the effectual call by God's free and special grace, and the salvation that is ministered through the gospel call administered through men!!!
Take his (3) - 'The Holy Ghost is the agent, who effects it by the instrumentality of the truth.'
I take the pronoun 'it' as a reference to salvation mentioned in (1). If that's the case, it must necessarily mean that the Holy Spirit would be IMPOTENT to effect salvation WITHOUT the instrumentality of the truth.
OK.... now go qualify and ADD exceptions to Hodges' statement so that they do not contain LOGICAL FALLACIES.
I was raised in a new school Calvinist environment... I see through all their logical fallacies and inconsistencies some 15 years later. I left it... and embraced the Biblical truth summarized in the historic Confession... especially the 1689CoF.
Rocky
Since you are boasting of faithfully adhering to the original intent of the framers of the Westminster Confession of Faith, please bring in one credible witness from the one hundred and two Westminster divines who attended the Assembly to prove your notion that the “Word and His Spirit” do refer to Christ, the Logos, and the Holy Ghost – two persons of the Godhead, thus denying that it refers to the preaching of the Word (outward call) and God’s Spirit (inward call). For unless you can bring at least one among the one hundred and two divines from that venerable Assembly, it is pointless and fruitless to continue discussing with you here. I think this simple question will settle the differences between us at once. It is a strange theology, indeed, to misinterpret the original intent of the Assembly. The Assembly, in their Shorter Catechism, in answering to question # 31, What is effectual calling? Says, “Effectual call is the work of God’s Spirit, whereby convincing us of our sin and misery, enlightening our minds in the knowledge of Christ, and renewing our wills, he doth persuade and enable us to embrace Jesus Christ, freely offered to us in the gospel.” I Sarah Hillbilly Husband, Brent Gensler and many of the thorough Reformed and Presbyterians whom you call half-brothers are anxiously waiting your answer to the above simple question.
Sing F Lau
Sorry, Rocky just noticed your comment.OK then... look at the answer to Q31, What is the effectual calling?
The answer given is:
“Effectual call is the work of God’s Spirit, whereby convincing us of our sin and misery, enlightening our minds in the knowledge of Christ, and renewing our wills, he doth persuade and enable us to embrace Jesus Christ, freely offered to us in the gospel.”
This answer plainly distinguishes and separates the two callings: the effectual to grace and salvation as defined in WCF.X.i. This effectual calling to grace and salvation ENABLES a child of God to embrace Christ offered in the gospel call.
What is so strange?
Every elect is effectually called to grace and salvation at God's approved and accepted time. The effectually called are enabled to embrace Christ who is freely preached and made known to the effectually called.
The effectual call to grace and salvation is logically and chronologically prior to the gospel call.
Some of the effectually called are incapable of being outwardly called by gospel call - either because of their INABILITY or because they never had the OPPORTUNITY to hear the gospel in their lifetime. (X.iii)
Only the effectual call is NECESSARY for eternal salvation.
A. A. Hodges's statement, that "That there is an internal as well as an external call NECESSARY to save men" - PLAINLY implies that those incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the word cannot be saved! That statement DAMNS all the effectually called who are incapable of being saved!
That's pure contradiction and logical fallacy.
Sing F Lau
Rocky, you requestedSince you are boasting of faithfully adhering to the original intent of the framers of the Westminster Confession of Faith, please bring in one credible witness from the one hundred and two Westminster divines who attended the Assembly to prove your notion that the “Word and His Spirit” do refer to Christ, the Logos, and the Holy Ghost – two persons of the Godhead, thus denying that it refers to the preaching of the Word (outward call) and God’s Spirit (inward call).
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My conclusion is that the “Word and His Spirit” do refer to
Christ, the Logos, and the Holy Ghost – two persons of the Godhead, thus
denying that it refers to the preaching of the word (outward call) and God’s
Spirit (inward call) are necessary, otherwise you MUST necessarily conclude
that ALL THE WCF Framers are illogical and self-contradicting ijiots!
Let me demonstrate to you in their VERY own
words in the WCF.
i. WCF.X.i necessarily EMBRACES ALL THE
ELECT.... do you agree? Read again. Is anyone excepted?
So, if you want to insist that 'His Word' refers to the ministry of the word (outward call), then you are necessarily making the Framers state that ALL the elect without exception will have the outward call, none excepted.
Do you agree with this necessary and inevitable conclusion???
If that's what you want to make the Framers mean in WCF.X.i, then you are making the Framers appear really stupid and illogical and inconsistent to mention in X.iii that there are elect who don't have the outward call.
You are saying that the Framers contradict their statement in X.i with their statement X.iii. Do you see the point?
No, the Framers were clear and logical on this point.
It is their STEP-CHILDREN that are confused illogical and inconsistent.
