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| "Faith is the means, the God-given means, whereby we are saved. Even so, the cart is the means, the farmer-given mean, whereby the horse is pulled!!! |
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September 5 at 6:00pm
Question:
Is faith the means of salvation, or evidence of salvation? What salvation?
Answer:
- Faith is a fruit and evidence of the eternal salvation freely bestowed upon a dead condemned sinner. Therefore faith is not and has never been, a means of eternal salvation. An effect of salvation can never be the means to that same salvation.
- Faith is a saving grace (a fruit of the Spirit worked in a child of God) whereby a child of God works out his own temporal salvation in obedience to His Father's will.
If you understand these two statements, you have saved yourself from a lot of confusion.
Sing F Lau
We often hear familiar words like these from Calvinists about the relationship between their faith and salvation:
"Faith is the means, the God-given means, whereby we are saved. It is not a condition of salvation. Salvation is never conditional. There are no conditions we must fulfil in order to be saved..."
No, no, no! "Faith is NOT NOT NOT the means, the God-given means, whereby we are saved.
Faith is the God-given means whereby the salvation that God has already freely...
and sovereign bestowed upon an elect is evidenced and manifested.
Only a man whom God has saved - effectually called to grace and salvation based on the redemptive work of Christ - is able to believe. The indwelling Holy Spirit has worked the grace of faith in his heart. That faith manifests itself in the acts of believing.
The salvation which is by God's free grace that enables a man to believe CANNOT possibly be the same salvation that is obtained through believing. Otherwise, there is a monumental logical fallacy! The effect CANNOT be one and the same as the cause!
Faith which is a fruit and effect of the salvation by God's free grace CANNOT possibly be the instrument to obtain that same salvation. Otherwise, there is a monumental logical fallacy!
The answer lies in rightly dividing the word of truth:
the ETERNAL salvation by God's free grace that enables a child of God to believe and the TEMPORAL salvation (relating to his well being in the life here and now) that is obtained through his believing are distinct and separate.
A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology.
Dellis
So, brother Sing, are you saying that regeneration precedes faith?
Danny
Romans chapter 10 is but one excellent example of this.
Mikal
Very good assessment Bro.! Regeneration is a work of the Spirit alone without any means!! Faith is that manifestation of that newly given spiritual life-giving evidence that that person was justified by the finished work of Christ alone!! The just shall live by faith!!
Jerry
"Faith is the means, the God-given means, whereby we are saved. It is not a condition of salvation. Salvation is never conditional. There are no conditions we must fulfil in order to be saved..."If faith is the "God-given means" of salvation, then the salvation in question certainly is conditional...The Calvinist that made that statement contradicts himself when he states that faith is the means...then, that faith is the condition of salvation...Faith IS necessary for TEMPORAL salvation here in time. There is no means or conditions that God uses to save His people eternally...
Sing F Lau
Dellis, life must precede the activities of that life.So, yes, regeneration must precede faith.
In addition, justification by God's free grace LOGICALLY PRECEDES regeneration. Justification by God's free grace gives divine warrant for regeneration. When righteousness is applied, condemnation is removed, and life is imparted!
The just (the justified by God's free grace) shall live by faith - is a concrete proof that justification precedes faith. The justified and regenerated are enables to believe.
And believing vindicates and evidences that justification and regeneration have taken place by God's free and sovereign grace.
Sing F Lau
"Faith is the means, the God-given means, whereby we are saved. It is not a condition of salvation. Salvation is never conditional. There are no conditions we must fulfil in order to be saved..."=======
If faith is the means whereby we are saved...
Then THE means MUST be utilized by those to whom it is given IN ORDER for them to be saved.
Doesn't that constitute a condition? By qualifying that the means is a God-given DOES NOT remove the logical fallacy or resolve the equivocation!
If the means is not utilized by the recipient, is there salvation for him? You see, salvation is, after all the shibboleth, STILL conditioned upon work, his utilization of that means!
If you don't utilize the means, there is no salvation!
This Calvinistic idea is no different from that of the Arminian. These cousins speak the same language!
Brian
I invite you to ponder over these things?
Sing F Lau
"Faith is the means, the God-given means, whereby we are saved. It is not a condition of salvation. Salvation is never conditional. There are no conditions we must fulfil in order to be saved..."========
The more I mull over these words, the more fallacious they appear.
So faith is the God-GIVEN means whereby we are saved.
That necessarily means God GAVE the means to those who are NOT YET SAVED by Him so that by utilizing the means given to them they are saved by God.
Question 1
What is the spiritual state of those that are not yet saved by God?
Why would God give such means to such?
Question 2
Can such utilize the means given to them whereby they are saved?
Brian
I agree faith is not a condition of salvation. It is the fruit of regeneration. I often say that. Faith though is not apart from regeneration. Faith has two parts. The potentia and the actus. Or, The potential and the activity. The potentia is the seed of faith which is not only a free and sovereign gift of God but is in effect regeneration and the new birth. As a consequence, we believe and confess Jesus Christ. That is the actus, the activity of faith. Regeneration comes to us to make us alive and then able to believe.
Mikal
Did John the Baptist have regenerating "faith" when filled with the Spirit in the womb? Faith does not regenerate, nor does any means including the Gospel! One must be made spiritual before spiritual activity ie faith and repentance can take place. Those of the spirit do mind the things of the spirit.
Rick
push, horsey, push!
Brian
Mikal, did you read my post?
Johnny
Guys, I'm new to this understanding of what God has done, have one question, regarding the spiritual aspect of what the physical man, and his thinking. In God's spiritual time, everything has always occurred (His predestination, His foreknowledge, His election). Yet, to humans, it seems significant, with our physical minds, these "events" in the proper order (election, regeneration, faith, baptism, repentance, etc.). Some ChurchReligions demand that these be proper (as "steps" to the entrance to a house, and that they be human actions), and add yet another work, "hearing," a scriptural term, to be sure. Does God decide who hears, and who does not?
Brian
Yes, He does. It is to him that hath an ear to hear, let him hear and these things are hidden from the wise and prudent for so it seemed good in God's sight.
Brian
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Brian
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Mikal
Yes, Mr Brian, I did read your post. The part I took issue with and maybe I misunderstood how you meant it. Let me quote:"Faith has two parts. The potentia and the actus. Or, the potential and the activity. The potentia is the seed of faith which is not only a free and sovereign gift of God but is in effect regeneration and the new birth"
I take that to say that faith in its seed form or potential is the cause of or is regeneration. If I misunderstood I apologize. If that is what you meant, I stand by my disagreement. Faith on my part has nothing to do with the applying of spiritual life sovereignly by God.
Johnny
@Brian. Your answer helps, but doesn't everyone have an ear, to hear. The Word is not everywhere, nor has it been, since the First Century. What of folks without the blessing of being presented? Is that to be our concern?
Brian
Ephesians 2:8-9King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Mikal
Proverbs 20:1212 The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the Lord hath made even both of them.
Isaiah 44:18
They have not known nor understood:
for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.
Not everyone has hearing ears. They may have listening ears but they do not hear spiritually. God gives them that ability in regeneration.
Brian
Notice we are saved, not by faith, but through faith. Faith is conveyance vehicle through which salvation comes to us sovereignly. It is not our work. There is an aspect of faith that is our work but this is the consequence of regeneration via the planting of faith in our hearts. As a consequence, we believe. The essence of faith is that it is a gift of God. All men do not have because God does not give all men faith. I hope this is clearer for you.
Brian
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
Johnny
@Brian. I concur, teaching is a "work," hearing is a "work," even belief, all are works. Yet, we are to love all men, and as much as possible be at peace. I've had trouble receiving an answer concerning the "works" when according to every teacher, something has to be done, for God to provide the grace you speak of. And those, without an opportunity to hear, well, that is my question. I am blessed. You are blessed. We've all "heard" by God, not by the "work" of any preacher or teacher. What of those not having heard, because of circumstance in time and place.
Brian
For it is impossible for a dead man to make a response in the physical world and so it correlates that a man dead spiritually cannot make a response spiritually either. For a man to respond spiritually he must first be made spiritually alive. This is a case in point where man is passive totally. He cannot make himself alive. For a man who is dead not even the call of the gospel as it is preached can break into his deadness. However, God, when and as He pleases gives life to that dead sinner and calls him by the gospel, to him that hath an ear to hear, to them that hunger, to them that thirst, to them that labour and are heavy laden etc. Notice these attributes are not the attributes of the dead but the living spiritually, hungering, thirsting, labouring, hearing. This is not only how the apostles and Christ preached the gospel but also how we ought to preach the gospel. And can the dead repent no, but being made alive we are indeed able to repent for it is God who worketh in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.
Johnny
@Brian. So, are those who have never heard, then, spiritually dead, by default, unless God gives him light. If so, the possibility must exist for light to be given, other than by the Word. If not, then answer why you and I are privileged among God's mortal creation, over others. For me, personally, I'm happy in the spiritual sense, and thankful.
Brian
The spiritually dead that are never made alive by God are non elect and reprobate. The elect are made alive by God in the day of His power. If we believe then we have been made alive by God and are indeed favoured not because we deserve it but because of Him who calls.
Brian
Why are we so favoured. Because God has made us to be stones in His temple and we each fit perfectly the place God has for us.
Johnny
@Brian. This explanation, of the elect, is the only one I have heard in a lifetime of searching the question. So, are you saying, the elect are among those who have not heard the Word, known of a monotheistic Creator, or spiritual consequence of sin?
Brian
The elect are chosen in Christ from before the foundation of the world. They are described as sheep. Christ finds them adds them to the church and saves them from their sins. They may have heard the word in a physical way many times but that word is only effectual and meaningful when they are born again, regenerate, spiritually alive.
Johnny
............ and if they have NEVER heard the Word? May they be regenerated, and chosen (elected) by God's spiritual predestination and foreknowledge, again, not from man, but from Him. I guess my question is does God reveal Himself, only by the written Word? He did with me.
Brian
I guess in the case of elect infants that die in infancy we could say they were regenerated without hearing the word for example those that die within the womb. Ordinarily it is the preaching of the gospel that is the usual mode of the saving operation of the spirit of God. There is a retracting formula in scripture that refers to this posting on next posRomans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Johnny
Thanks, Brian. Will look for it. Enjoy the discussion, it is a lifetime question, that spiritual folks as yourself, and Sing, have given me answer to, through God of course.
Brian
If you want a really sound and deep web site with over 6000 pages of solid content see www.cprf.co.ukCPRC Home Page
Sing F Lau
Brother Brian, thank you for studying Scriptures together.Let me start off with your first comment. Much have been said... and I haven't read them. I wish to deal with something basic first.
Here is your comment:
=========
"I agree faith is not a condition of salvation. It is the fruit of regeneration. I often say that. Faith though is not apart from regeneration. Faith has two parts. The potentia and the actus. Or, The potential and the activity. The potentia is the seed of faith which is not only a free and sovereign gift of God but is in effect regeneration and the new birth. As a consequence we believe and confess Jesus Christ. That is the actus, the activity of faith. Regeneration comes to us to make us alive and then able to believe."
=======
Interesting! Does these make sense or do you see some stark inconsistencies???
1. Faith is the fruit of regeneration.
2. Faith has two parts - the potentia and the actus.
3. The potentia is the seed of faith... is in effect regeneration and the new birth.
THEREFORE, the fruit of regeneration has become regeneration itself!!!
The effect is ALSO one and the same as the cause itself.
Am I fair and right in concluding thus from your words above?
I suggest that your words [sic] betray serious confusion between regeneration, faith {potentia), and believing (actus)!!!
I understand the Scriptures to teach thus:
1. Regeneration: the divine free and sovereign activity of quickening an elect dead in trespasses and sins, based solely upon the righteousness of Christ applied to the elect personally by God's free and sovereign grace.
2. The Spirit of adoption within the child of God (regenerated elect) works in him the manifolds graces of salvation, INCLUDING the grace of faith.
- This is ENTIRELY different and distinct from the divine act of regeneration!!! (This is probably what you meant by the potentia part of faith.)
- Thus, faith is a grace worked WITHIN a child of God by the indwelling Spirit of God. Faith is the fruit of the Spirit. It is an effect of salvation already bestowed. Therefore it CANNOT CANNOT be the means whereby an elect is saved by God.
3. By virtue of that grace of faith worked by the Spirit of God within the child of God, he is ENABLE to believe (an activity of faith - actus) the gospel of his salvation.
Faith (potentia), the God-given means (ACTUALLY worked within the heart of a child of God), is NOT NOT NOT the means whereby an elect is saved by God.
Both BOTH the Calvinists and their close cousins believe that popular fiction.
Faith (potentia), the God-given means, IS IS IS the means to manifest and evidence (through the actus of believing) that an elect HAS BEEN SAVED by God, freely and sovereignly.
To say that an effect of salvation is the God-given means whereby we are saved is a logical fallacy, and a theological shibboleth leading to confusion.
Biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology.
Sing F Lau
Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
==========
Brother Brian, I seriously like this "King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)"
On this we are wholly agreed!
I invite you to read this little explanation on the POPULAR passage you have quoted above!
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2008/01/saved-by-grace-through-faith-whose.html
Tell me what you think.
It is time to dig up an entrenched fiction and lie!
Things New and Old: Saved by grace through faith – whose faith?
Sing F Lau
Brian, you wrote: "Notice we are saved, not by faith, but through faith. Faith is conveyance vehicle through which salvation comes to us sovereignly. It is not our work. There is an aspect of faith that is our work but this is the consequence of regeneration via the planting of faith in our hearts. As a consequence we believe. The essence of faith is that it is a gift of God. All men do not have because God does not give all men faith. I hope this is clearer for you."=================
Dear brother, let me suggest to you THE solution to harmonize the inevitable logical fallacies inherent in the typical Calvinistic notion encapsulated in your words above. I do understand where you are coming from... and I do appreciate your great attempt at reconciling the place of faith (potentia) and believing (actus) in their relation to the salvation by God's free and sovereign grace.
I struggled through those logical fallacies for a long time until I learn to rightly divide the word of truth from the Scriptures.
Ok, back to the points in your comments.
There is no need to qualify that we are not saved by faith. That's not the point of dispute.
There is great need to explain 'we are saved through faith.' - because this is where the problem lies.
It is true, faith (potentia) is not our work... it is the work of the Spirit, a fruit of the Spirit. He works this saving grace in the child of God. This saving grace DOES NOT save, this saving grace is an EFFECT of salvation already bestowed, freely and sovereign by God.
So, how are we saved through faith? The Calvinists say, "Faith is conveyance vehicle through which salvation comes to us sovereignly." By that, the Calvinists means "Believing (actus part of faith) is conveyance vehicle through which salvation comes to us sovereignly." Am I right?
You are still STUCK with the logical fallacy! Believing is an effect and fruit of salvation already freely and sovereign bestowed upon us. That being so, it CANNOT CANNOT CANNOT be at the same time be the conveyance vehicle through which the SAME salvation comes to us sovereignly."
But if you protest and insist that the faith spoken of is the potentia part of faith, you still have the logical fallacy. Faith (potentia) is ALSO an effect of salvation already bestowed freely and sovereign by God. Believing (actus) is a manifestation of Faith (potentia).
And please be very clear in our mind that BELIEVING IS WORK... the Lord Jesus Himself declares so. John 6:28 "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."
There is indeed a salvation that is through the means of believing. Believing saves... repenting saves... obeying saves. The works of God's children save them. There is a salvation that God's children (ALREADY saved with eternal salvation in Jesus Christ, applied to them by the free and sovereign grace of God) must work out for themselves. And believing is one such work. And believing is work indeed! Believing requires the activities of reading and hearing and understanding... these are works.
But the salvation that God's children must work out for themselves is completely distinct and different from the salvation that God, through His Son's redemptive work and applied by His Spirit, freely and sovereignly bestowed upon each of His elect personally.
If you rightly DIVIDE and DISTINGUISH the two salvation, the inherent logical fallacies in the Calvinistic notion is somewhat resolved.
Salvation that is the CAUSE... and salvation that is secondary effects are two different and distinct entities.
Faith is the God-given means to the latter... through believing the truth of one salvation by God's free grace, a child of God is saved from lies and superstition and fictions and fables, he experiences assurance, joy, peace, hope, etc.
Faith as the God-given means is an effect of the former, and has NOTHING to do with being saved with the former.
May our Lord grant you understanding.
Biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology. Thanks for listening.
Brian
Sing F Lau, I think you need to read the rest of what I have said above. You would have saved yourself some writing. I suppose from yours and my point of view long answers do not tie us down to specifics but are sometimes required and we can miss vital points through longevity. I will take only a few points at a time and that way we can more accurately answer one another better. In searching your answer to me there are a few things I would like you to substantiate for me that this is what you are saying: 1. That faith is not a gift of God. 2. That all men head for head are not duty bound to repent. 3. That repentance saves. I am enjoying this interaction.
Sing F Lau
I like it when people ask specific questions, instead of presuming or speculating! I ask very specific questions too. I will answer your questions.But i will repeat this question:
Is faith (actus) the means by which we are saved, or is it the means by which we evidenced that we have been saved by God WITHOUT means?
1. That faith is not a gift of God.
- Faith is NOT a gift in the sense that salvation is a gift.
- Faith is a gift of God in the specific sense that it is a saving grace worked in the child of God by the Holy Spirit.
- Gift comes from WITHOUT. A saving grace is worked from WITHOUT.
2. That all men head for head are not duty bound to repent.
- All sinners are duty bound to repent. They are God's creatures bound by the covenant of creation. God's creatures are duty bound by the covenant of creation to repent of their sins and obey God as their Creator.
- All the children of God are duty bound to repent and believe in the gospel of their salvation. They are God's redeemed bound by the covenant of redemption. God's redeemed are duty bound by the covenant of redemption to repent and believe in their Saviour the Lord Jesus Christ .
3. That repentance saves.
- Yes, repentance saves... not from the eternal damnation that their sins deserved in the justice of God. Christ and His redemptive work ALONE has saved from that to the uttermost.
- Repentance from sins save a child from the temporal judgment upon sins here in this life. Repentance from errors to truth saves a child of God from the devil's lies and errors and logical fallacies, ecclesiastical tyranny, etc.
Please answer my inquiry too.
Is breath a means whereby a dead man get life, or is breath a means to evidence and manifest that life has been imparted to the dead man?
Is faith (actus) the God-given means whereby we are saved, or is faith (actus) the means to evidence and manifest that salvation has been freely and sovereign bestowed by God?
Thanks Brother Brian.
Brian
I think if you read my comments on the thread that all of your questions have been answered in detail. Especially with regard to us being spiritually dead and how life comes to us first. Please read my comments when you have time.Sing F Lau
If you have answered it, then I must have missed it. I would appreciate if you could just answer this very point and specific question:
Is faith (actus) the God-given means whereby we are saved, or is faith (actus) the means to evidence and manifest that salvation has been freely and sovereign bestowed by God?
Thank you very much.
Brian
It is the second part of your question. The activity of faith is the evidence of the implantation of regeneration which is the gift of God.
Brian
I am cutting and pasting from the thread what i said earlier. For it is impossible for a dead man to make a response in the physical world and so it correlates that a man dead spiritually cannot make a response spiritually either. For a man to respond spiritually he must first be made spiritually alive. This is a case in point where man is passive totally. He cannot make himself alive. For a man who is dead not even the call of the gospel as it is preached can break into his deadness. However, God, when and as He pleases gives life to that dead sinner and calls him by the gospel, to him that hath an ear to hear, to them that hunger, to them that thirst, to them that labour and are heavy laden etc. Notice these attributes are not the attributes of the dead but the living spiritually, hungering, thirsting, labouring, hearing. This is not only how the apostles and Christ preached the gospel but also how we ought to preach the gospel. And can the dead repent no, but being made alive we are indeed able to repent for it is God who worketh in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.
Sing F Lau
Brother, that's the answer.And because that is the answer, it is a logical fallacy to say "Faith is the means, the God-given means, whereby we are saved." It is a lie so loved by inconsistent Calvinists, and so loved by their ignorant cousins Arminians.
Regeneration is part and parcel of the gift of eternal salvation in Christ Jesus, applied to an elect WITHOUT any means, by freely and sovereignly by God.
Faith (potentia) is an effect of that salvation bestowed.
Faith (actus) is an evidence and manifestation of that effect.
Therefore faith (actus) CANNOT possibly be the means whereby anyone is saved by God! It is logically fallacious, and worse a lie, and injurious to God's honor.
Thank you so much.
Johnny
I'll attempt to answer, as I, too, enjoy the abstract thought process inherit with spiritual matters, the understanding of God, by our limited physical minds, given by Him. "We are not ourselves, we were bought with a price." "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." Those two scriptures, are the basis that comes to mind, the philosophy behind the answer to Sing's inquiry. Nothing we do, think, feel with our senses, are from us. That includes everyone, from Adam on down. We are nothing more that the same components as a rock, as far as physical existence is concerned. God "breathed" into everyone, "the breath of life." Thus, EVERYTHING of us, in us, about us, EVERY ONE of us, is from God. Presuming that philosophy to be spiritual truth, then the answer is "actus" like everything else. From God. So, by "any way we cut it," by what ever wording we apply to describe it, faith and belief come from God. Man's part, is no more than understanding God's process in providing EVERYTHING, than it is in understanding, say, that 1 plus 1 equals 2. So, what do we do with this understanding, that we also call, "Faith," or sometimes, "Belief." Just sit around, praise God, study the Bible so that we know more about God and His nature and His Universe? Sure, we can do that. But doesn't that lead to HUMAN pride in our understanding, and even hatred for those that do not have such understanding? It could. At best, it is pure selfishness. All of it is forgiven, without a doubt, yet the thankfulness, the gratitude to the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE, for forgiveness, compels any reasonable, thinking believer, to good "works," including the self-will to turn from the old man of sin to the new man of righteousness (repentance), BECAUSE, the FATHER through JESUS (a man and God on Earth) took the sins on the cross, giving us salvation from those sins and GOD'S HOLY SPIRIT. And, why not be baptized, another good "work," to outwardly demonstrate the body's physical life, for self, for observation by others, and to God. Does man "do" any of this, without the Father? It would be ridiculous to say yes, I got baptized, I confessed, when God the Father provides in His Word, these good "works." So, what's the problem. All of this understanding from man, is hinged on God's Word. That Word was from the beginning, and has been communicated to me by God. Why me? Why not, EVERYONE. That is the nature of God, that has not been answered by Him, through my personal study, my prayers, or by anyone else's teachings or answers to the question.Sing F Lau
Johnny, what specific questions are you answering?
I can't follow a thing!
Brian
God does not arbitrarily choose us because there is something better about us than others. God choose us because He has created us to be living stones in His temple. I am a stone and you are a stone but I am not you nor you me. We are not the same and I could not be placed in the temple location God has for you for I would not fit nor you in my place. God has carefully chosen each stone to fit perfectly into his building. Does that answer your final question? The stones God does not use in His temple are rejected.
Brian
Sing F Lau Let me ask a specific question, Is regeneration part of faith?
Johnny
@Brian. Yes, as well as any thought I have had. To answer to question completely, I suppose, would require the mind of God, which none of us have. I do know that my parents prayed to God, for my life, my spiritual being, all that; perhaps an answer to their prayer. Yet, that still does not speak to the why, God provides for some nations, and not others. My faith in His goodness, satisfies, but I still have the "human" question lingering, perhaps, and will always. The fellow in the Amazon, never heard of God, His Word, Christ, or had anyone pray for him. As to the question, of regeneration. I could only offer an opinion, the concept being new to my spiritual experience. In some ways, it describes the possibility of God's providing salvation WITHOUT the Word, to His elect, in the nation's that I have questioned, but it would only be an opinion. It's an explanation that helps strengthen my belief in the Almighty. And, it is from God. If it is man's part in the process, through self-will or mental understanding, I would have to conclude that it is "AFTER" in human time, that God provides faith. In spiritual time, there is no BEFORE, AFTER, or LATER.
Brian
The answer to the guy in the jungle is simple God does not love all men but there are jungle people God does love and Christ finds them and leads them to eternal life out of the jungle to church or else he brings the church to the jungle.
Johnny
@Brian. That is the belief that I come to have, from a consistent and loving God, one that if I thought was not so, even with His mercy for me and for all. Yet, let me ask, not to dispute in any way your answer, are we commanded to love all men, Jesus' second commandment. And the scripture, "It at all possible, live in peace with all men." If we are commanded to love as God, to love God, and to love men, is it acceptable to not love the unseen man in the jungle. And if so, is it acceptable not to love your next door neighbor who cheats on his wife. How can we be expected to love all men, even in the abstract, if God does not love all men?
Sing F Lau
Brian asked: Let me ask a specific question, Is regeneration part of faith?=======
Define 'faith' for me and I will be able to answer your specific and pointed question. Give me a biblical definition of the 'faith' in your question.
Thanks.
Sing F Lau
Johnny, I would prefer you to keep strictly to the subject. There is a place and time for every subject of your choice. Put them up on your wall, and send me an invitation, and I will come and take a look... and if the subject interest me, i will leave some comments.You want to love the unseen men in the jungle????????? No, the Lord just want you to be more focused , Sir. "Love thy neighbor as thyself... " That's enough to occupy our whole life!
Brian
Faith is a gift of the grace of God whereby we know and are assured that God is our Father for Jesus sake. To me it comes firstly, as a gift of enablement. It makes us alive by regeneration and then causes us to believe being thus enabled and then it causes us to repent of our sins and flee to Christ our only redeemer.Thus I see faith as a gift of God in what he does in us and as a consequence our appropriation of the salvation through the said faith and resulting confession of it.
Johnny
@Sing. Thank you, but no thank you. I appreciate your comments so much, and the ones that comment on your wall. I have no intention in starting any string of comments, as that is not the style I consider God has given me. Am I curious though. Why do you ask only me to make such attempts, dismissive of only my comments, and not so for others? I'll consider your answer a spiritual one, regardless of what it is.
Johnny
@Sing. I have answered questions regarding faith, on your link, and the answers deal with faith. I'll be happy not to answer any questions on your links. They are yours, to be sure. Just let me know. I honor your wishes.
Sing F Lau
Brian wrote: "Faith is a gift of the grace of God whereby we know and are assured that God is our Father for Jesus sake. To me it comes firstly, as a gift of enablement. It makes us alive by regeneration and then causes us to believe being thus enabled and then it causes us to repent of our sins and flee to Christ our only redeemer."==========
You are saying these:
1. Faith is a gift of the grace of God whereby we know and are assured....
2. Faith is a gift of enablement...
3. Faith makes us alive by regeneration...
4. Faith causes us to believe...
Did you read what I said about the relationship between regeneration, faith and believing?
I paste it here:
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I understand the Scriptures to teach thus:
1. Regeneration: the divine free and sovereign activity of quickening an elect dead in trespasses and sins, based solely upon the righteousness of Christ applied to the elect personally by God's free and sovereign grace.
2. The Spirit of adoption within the child of God (regenerated elect) works in him the manifolds graces of salvation, INCLUDING the grace of faith.
- This is ENTIRELY different and distinct from the divine act of regeneration!!! (This is probably what you meant by the potentia part of faith.)
- Thus, faith is a grace worked WITHIN a child of God by the indwelling Spirit of God. Faith is the fruit of the Spirit. It is an effect of salvation already bestowed. Therefore it CANNOT CANNOT be the means whereby an elect is saved by God.
3. By virtue of that grace of faith worked by the Spirit of God within the child of God, he is ENABLE to believe (an activity of faith - actus) the gospel of his salvation.
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Your (3) statement is very seriously wrong. Faith does not makes a spiritually dead man live. Regeneration is attributed to the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ. God makes us alive by regeneration!!!!
Your statement (1) contradicts the plain statements of Scriptures that faith, among all other saving graces, is the work of the Spirit in the regenerated elect. In that sense alone it is a gift of God, just as ALL OTHER saving graces are gift of God.
Your (2) and (4) - The grace of faith indeed enables a child of God to believe. However, the grace of faith does not CAUSE any one to believe! The harsh reality of unbelief among God's children is enough to debunk such fable!
So, to answer your initial question "Is regeneration part of faith?" --- my answer is a seven fold NO!
If you have asked, "is faith part of regeneration" the answer is a qualified 'yes'.
Regeneration is God's free and sovereign activity of bringing a man, who is by nature dead in trespasses and sin, to eternal life in Christ Jesus, accompanied with the gift of the Spirit of adoption to indwell the child of God.
It is the indwelling Spirit who works the grace of faith (your PRC's 'potentia' terminology) in the child of God. This enables, NOT causes, a child of God to believe the word of truth, the gospel of his salvation.
Thanks for the discussion and study.
Sing F Lau
Brother Johnny, you ask, "Why do you ask only me to make such attempts..?"Ans: you notice yours, and not others.
I find it hard reading when I don't see the connections between the matter under discussion and the comments made.
So, feel REAL FREE to comment... just stay to the subject. It is a needed discipline.
LOVE you Brother!!! I think you are a brother with a mind bursting with so much to say... ready to share.
Brian
I think you misunderstand me. I am not saying that regeneration is not the work of the spirit. It is the first work. But not only does this work of the spirit make us alive spiritually it implants faith in us. Thus this is how I understand the connection with faith and regeneration. You cannot have regeneration without also having faith. They are inextricably linked. This I call the seed of faith and this seed manifests itself in our believing. I do not think we are saying different things.
Sing F Lau
I didn't misunderstand you. You said this:"Faith is a gift of the grace of God whereby we know and are assured that God is our Father for Jesus sake. To me it comes firstly, as a gift of enablement. It makes us alive by regeneration and then causes us to believe being thus enabled and then it causes us to repent of our sins and flee to Christ our only redeemer."
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So from your words, I conclude that you are saying that "It (i.e. FAITH) makes us alive by regeneration and then CAUSES us to believe...
Of course you DIDN'T say that regeneration is NOT the work of the Spirit. You didn't say anything on that.
BUT, you did make a VERY POSITIVE statement that "(faith) makes us alive by regeneration and then causes us to believe.
"You cannot have regeneration without also having faith..."
This statement is true... regeneration is always accompanied with the gift of the Spirit to indwell God's child. And the indwelling Spirit works the grace of faith (potentia), which enables believing (actus). Enabling is not the same as CAUSING.
With your latter explanation, I can agree we are not saying entirely different things.
September 6 at 11:27pm · Like
Sing F Lau
Brother Brian you wrote:"Thus I see faith as a gift of God in what he does in us and as a consequence our appropriation of the salvation through the said faith and resulting confession of it."
You are still stuck with your calvinistic idea of appropriation of the salvation through the said God-given means faith.
I have demonstrated and explained endless times... that SINCE faith is an effect of the salvation already bestowed, it CANNOT be the means through which the same salvation is appropriated. You have not once refuted or debunked it.
If you want to live with that logical fallacy and lie and fable, I will say no more.
Someone once said, "Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone."
Thank you for the discussion.
I'm knocking off. It's nearly midnight here.
Johnny
Only the Father, Sing, in all things. Thank you.
Johnny
I'll risk criticism, and jump into this subject of KJV and the Word. Brian, you asked Sing, and I firmly believe the Holy Spirit has given me insight on this matter. Such may not be best for every student of scripture, but has worked for me. First, let me say that John 1 describes the Word, the "mind" of God which He has provided in written form (to His generations of humanity in physical time that he allowed to print or chisel characters or words). The WORD is NOT the book, the words, the writings, the translations, the manuscripts of supposed copies of the originals, and perhaps not the original letters themselves (doesn't matter - they are non-existent physically). The Word is the "thoughts" of the Almighty. God's Holy Spirit (God Himself) a part of us, is there to clearly define what we may question the meaning, or more importantly, guide our physical walk - after all, our spiritual "walk" is taken care of, forever. So, Brain asked Sing if he exclusively used the KJV. The terms "only" and "never" are words that have little meaning, as they are impossible (almost), to say with 100% truth, that the action or thought after them, are true. Yet, discounting that, is the question is exclusive use in study, my response would by, "why do you ask." For myself, historically, the current Christian age studied the KJV since 1611, know the scriptures from that translation, and more easily communicate among outselves with one physical book. The book, Holy Bible translated 1611 contains the thoughts of God, and we should continually (constantly, translation KJV, or "without ceasing") pray that God gives us understanding. He has given us everything else. But for our own mind, intellect, human understanding, the use of other versions, in English more understandable, is appropriate for me, and by comparison to that which I am accustomed (parallel, especially on the internet), it is an example of a good "work" to study in that fashion. After all, ALL the translations are "good works" of men. If I had the human knowledge to translate the original texts (which are also subject to human error), I would do that. Yet in NO CASE, can man, get an physical truth from God, without His spiritual guidance. Otherwise, we would be depending upon ourselves and our own understanding, in addition to the understanding of the men that copied the manuscripts and translated the text.
Sing F Lau
Johnny said, "First, let me say that John 1 describes the Word, the "mind" of God which He has provided in written form... The Word is the "thoughts" of the Almighty.===========
Johnny, let me say that the Word in John 1 refers to the second DIVINE PERSON in the eternal Godhead! The Word in John 1 is NOT the mind or God, neither the thought of God, but a distinct and separate DIVINE PERSON.
That eternal Word was made flesh, and we have the Son of God... the unique divine-human Person, the only begotten Son of God.
Johnny
Good thought. Is this Divine Person, Jesus, or another component of distinct, yet integral, part of the God-head, better described, in my view, as simply, God. If Jesus, as the classic interpretation many take it, and to which I suspect you allude, why do you think John, the most spiritual writer of all perhaps, used the term "Word." I may be speaking quite in the abstract, referring it to God's "thoughts" and not specific to the literal meaning. Application of that thought of mine (from God, of course), was in response to the writting "word" question brought up. Was not attempting to go off into another subject. "The WORD was made flesh," no doubt about that.
Sing F Lau
Johnny, please listen to another Johnny:John 1
1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
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'... and the Word WAS God,' and not God's thoughts!
I'm pretty useless when it comes to abstractions! I'm do read the Bible and deduce what I do believe.
The Word is the ONE-natured eternal divine Being.
Jesus is the Word made flesh, the TWO-natured Divine-human Being. He is the only begotten Son of God.
And John was SPECIFICALLY speaking of the former, and not the latter. That's the reasn John used the term 'Word.'
Johnny
The beginning, in John 1, is not the beginning of Gen. 1:1. I am no scholar, yet I know this. God had NO physical time beginning. Thus, a proper word to describe God's time is THE beginning. Perhaps, Gen. 1:1, was mistranslated, and should read "In A beginning, God created......" So, with that thought in mind, the Word (Jesus), the Holy Spirit, and EVBERYTHING that is or was or will be, IS God. Jesus was mentioned in the creation account representing a PHYSICAL abeginning. "Let us make man in our image." Man was made physical, and in the minds of God, Christ, and whoever else (Holy Spirit?) making up the plurual "we." So, back to the Word. It is no different, spiritually, that anything else. The Word was God. The Word is God. Jesus was God. Jesus is God. Jesus came to share himself, as a man, yet also divine. The Word of God, Jesus, said of his deity nature in Col., that because of his physical time on Earth, Jesus was given EVERYTHING in God's everything, except of one thing (when, in physical time, he will come again). What he was given, was more than he had, at the creation in A beginning. So, I agree with one on all levels. The Word applies to Jesus. Jesus is the Word. The mind of God is the Word. Jesus brought the mind of God to humanity. The events surrounding them were written and for use by humanity, till the end of time. Call these abstractions, spiritual thoughts, whatever, they are true, and that is what matters.
Sing F Lau
O what irony. You are no scholar and you went on to write as though your are a scholar! I leave the translation of Scriptures to real scholars!!! Thank you... Johnny!
Johnny
There is no scholar, certified by educational institutions or not, or wanna-be-but-never-knowing-the-entire-nature-of-God, by comes to know or understand ANYTHING that God does not allow, or provide as a gift. That is why I enjoy your links, Sing. YOU are BOTH, and I learn. You help me from getting too far off the path of truth, and are answers to prayer, no doubt. Later.=============
post script ------ How easy to stray away from the subject under discussion!!!
