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| Lively tree but fruitless...therefore dead as far as fruitfulness is concerned! Dead faith is real faith but fruitless faith! |
"Works ALWAYS follow Justification" [emphasis original].
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If works ALWAYS follow Justification, then James has wasted his time dealing with a purely hypothetical fictional irrelevant non issue!!!
The simple truth and sad reality is that there is true faith without work - that's a real problem among God's children. That is why James has to deal with that SPECIFIC problem!
Jesus Christ dealt with it as well in the parable of the sower. (That parable is about FRUITFUL discipleship, not what a man must do to secure eternal salvation!!!)
Apostle Peter dealt with it too, in 2Pet 1
5 ¶ And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
If a child of God does NOT add to his faith those things, he will be barren, his faith is fruitless, i.e. dead.
Dead faith is not FALSE faith; dead faith is TRUE faith but fruitless. So many foolishly assume that dead faith is false faith!
Nilo
LET ME TEST YOUR ARTICLE brother:Doesn't that imply that we will behold fruitless Christians in heaven?
Doesn't that imply that we have people today who have the Holy Spirit but he is dormant or it implies that the Holy Spirit actively convicts but fails to produce fruitful works on that man of faith?
[Nilo, let me test your question - doesn't your first smart-alecky question imply that you get to heaven conditioned by your fruitfulness? See, I can ask such question too! ~~ sing]
Sing F Lau
Let's put aside all your multiple implications for a moment, and deal with biblical fact first. We will consider them later one by one.Let me test whether you have started to deal with the biblical passage at all.
Fact: James did deal with the problem of faith without work his epistle.
Q. Was James dealing with a real problem among his recipients, or just a fictional, hypothetical, imaginary problem that has no relevance to his hearers?
Q. Who was James dealing with - those with faith or those still dead in trespasses and sins?
Nilo
A 1 = James was dealing with a real problem among his recipientsA 2 = James was dealing with those who have already professed faith in Christ.
Sing F Lau
It helps to know that we are agreed on those basic points.So, it is established that there is faith WITHOUT works among God's children. Only God's children are capable of faith in Christ - I assume you agree with that.
What are some implications from your A1 and A2?
Nilo
A2 becomes a key issue. James could be dealing with professed believers but he does not know who are true believers
Sing F Lau
'Professed believers' is a modern problem read into the NT! You don't have 'professed believers' problem when professing Christ is very costly... and may cost you your life!This 'professed believers' stuff is a problem when and where Christianity is a STATE religion when it is profitable to be associated with the state religion!
James did not have to deal with "professed believers" that are not God's children.
Nilo
Judas was an example of a professed believer, not a true believer but professing faith in Christ.
Sing F Lau
Interesting point.... but doesn't alter the simple plain fact that James knew VERY WELL who exactly he was addressing:Jas 1:2 My BRETHREN, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:16 Do not err, my beloved BRETHREN.
Jas 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved BRETHREN, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
Jas 2:1 My BRETHREN, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
Jas 2:5 Hearken, my beloved BRETHREN, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my BRETHREN, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jers
Hi Nilo, you mean Judas was not a true apostle of our Lord Jesus Christ?
Nilo
he was a true apostle, but he was never part of the family of GODNilo
BRO SING, when I address or write anyone in our church, I address them as BRETHREN, although I am not sure that all of us are saved.
Charles
Most Southern Baptist pastors believe only 10-15% of their 'brethern' are truly saved!!! However my belief is that 90% or more of their brethern are regenerate and not told from the pulpit of their status. Now, less, much less, than 10% have adequete temporal salvation!
Robert
It is hard enough for me to strive to kill the old man in me everyday then to worry about what someone else is. I know that there are Judas's in the church but that is God's business not mine, unless I am a leader in the church. Jesus allowed Judas to remain until He was done with him.
Penny
I think Judas was a child of God and I believe Jesus loved him! How can a person perform miracles by the power of God and not be His?? I also feel it is very hypocritical and against the doctrines of grace to think Judas was not a child of God because he betrayed Jesus! If he was a dead alien sinner, why would he have felt so sorry for what he did that he killed himself? Where did that remorse come from? Where did that repentance comes from, if not from God? He would of spent that money and not try to give it back! I also don't understand how he could be "a true apostle" and not be a child of God?? For the evidence we have that Judas is a child of God but was overtaken in sin is "Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."It's not possible Judas could be spiritual at any time in his life and not be a child of God. Because one who is not born of God's spirit is not His and unable to perceive or demonstrate spiritual things. I think 'professed belief' is when we say we believe with our mouths but deny Him with our actions. Not in word only but also in deed! And the deed is a struggle for us all!
Charles
Robert, Jesus does not use people in the way you referenced. What a shameful thing to say!
Sing F Lau
Nilo @ "BRO SING, when I address or write anyone in our church, I address them as BRETHREN, although I am not sure that all of us are saved."
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VAST difference between you and James.
One write under the Divine Inspiration...
The other write with civil courtesy!
We must not measure James with Nilo...
we must measure Nilo against inspired James!
Scriptures alone at work.
Sing F Lau
A barren apple tree is no less a living apple tree still... it doesn't cease as an apple tree or mutate into an apricot tree!
A barren womb is a true living womb still though it is fruitless...
It is 'dead' only in the sense that it is fruitless.
The Bible states, and warns that God's children without works is a HARSH REALITY.
However, many insist that such cannot be so! They probably have sentimental notions about conversion.
Carl
We are not sure if the BRETHREN are really saved, we are just a human with a human mind. Our God is omniscient God Who knows the heart and mind of man. There is no problem with God if BRETHREN have FAITH in Him, all they have to do is to show their faith by their WORKS to other.
Sing F Lau
Hi Carl, glad you are thinking. It is commendable when young men START TO THINK... and not just regurgitate the ideas fed to them by their misguided confused teachers!!!
Supposing they are not really saved, and therefore still dead in trespasses and sins, then wouldn't it be really stupid to exhort them to show their works. It is the height of folly to exhort spiritually dead men to show spiritual works!!! JUST PLAIN STUPID - just being frank, not meant to offend!
It is like exhorting a dead man to show some movement to show that he is alive! You see the point???
It makes far more plain sense that there are living people who are PLAIN LAZY and not working.... and such are exhorted to work! There are lots of living but work-less people around... just look around you in Gen San.
Same in the spiritual realm!!! That's the problem James was dealing with among the recipients of his letter.
Robert
Charles I would refr you to Proverbs 16:4 also Romans 9:17
Robert
Penny I would refer you to Psalm 109:1-20 also I think Jesus himself called Judas a devil see John 6:70 I am not God but i know God uses the wicked how he will and when he will to accomplish his purposes. Also I would read Matthew 7:16:23 I may be wrong but I know that natural man does now right from wrong but is willfully ignorant see Romans 1:19-32
Robert
Charles also read Revelation 17:16-18
I agree that their are unfruitful children of God and there are religious natural men who create God in their image where that ends or begins I leave to God to judge not me.
Nilo
The word "brethren" is a general word used by the APOSTLES. Gal_2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
How do you think PAUL addressed these brethren before they were discovered as false?
When an Apostle addresses the church, he said, to the saints which are at ...., but he knows there are a mix of brethren there. That is the same tone that James addresses his warning to
Sing F Lau
When the Apostle Paul speaks of 'false brethren' who exactly did he refer to, do you know? What does the context demand? Are the 'false brethren' God's children or are they not? In what sense are the brethren 'false'?
Is he referring to pagan or is he referring to God's children among the Jews who were still misguided about the mosaic laws in the new covenant???????? Tell us if you know the answer. Thanks.
Be cured of that anachronism. The 'professed believers' problem did not exist in the early church... the situation was TOOOOOOOOOO harsh for such to develop.
'Professed believers' may be easy to find in the RC Philippines... not so in a oppressive place like Saudi!
Nilo
Oh brother. In Egypt, there are already Copts who suffer for their faith. Suffering for a false faith does not make it of the truth.
Context demands that there were in every church, false brethren, who no one knows were false until they become dogs who return to their own vomits, or privily bring in damnable heresies. They are brethren until they leave to be made manifest that they were not of us. They are brethren until it becomes obvious that they were wolves in sheep's clothing and many shall follow their pernicious ways among the brethren in the churches.
Sing F Lau
You are quite mistaken and deceived by your 'professed believers' notion.
The false brethren of Gal 2:4 are clearly a reference to God's children among the Jew who ignorantly insisted upon the observance of the mosaic law by the Gentiles believers.
Suffering for a false faith is NO suffering for the faith... It is suffering for a lie!
Your statement "Suffering for a false faith does not make it of the truth" - is plain illogical.
Nothing can turn falsehood into truth!
BRETHREN who believe in falsehood are brethren still though they may need to be converted to the truth. You would insist that brethren who believe falsehood are no brethren at all, but are dogs!!!
See the difference yet?
Penny
No I don't see the difference... seems like beating a dead horse to me! This is an endless debate, is it fruitful? Are you edified? or satisfied? Does not the Bible explicit say to not worry about who is and who isn't going to heaven? Because that is not the point of the Bible.
The Bible is to to me about me, about what my flesh is capable of... It is for me to use to live from day to day. To look at and judge my own behavior according to God... not judge the world according to it for only the Lord has authority and wisdom and mercy to judge the world!
Sorry, just had to get that off my chest.
Sing F Lau
Penny, you don't sound sorry but irritated and, wilfully blind not to see the difference.
This is the question:
"Do brethren who believe in falsehood cease to be brethren, or they remain brethren who need to be converted to the truth?"
If you can't keep to the subject, find a better place to off load your fluffy feeling!
Nilo
Penny, it seems you need this thread more than all. Please stay with us and learn with us. You believe Judas, the son of perdition, whom Christ knew from the beginning was the devil and yet chose him, WAS a child of God?
Sing F Lau
Nilo and Penny, if you are interested in the identity of Judas, it is best to start a separate thread to deal with that.
It is better to keep to the present subject here - the fruitlessness of God's children. Is that just a fiction, or is that a harsh and sad reality among God's children?
Penny
Sing, in regards to your question two posts above... I would be very reluctant to count someone whom Jesus Christ suffered and died for, as not a brother. Regardless of what they do or did. Isn't that grace?
AND... who do you think is converting people? Other people?? Who taught you what you know?? Who showed you the truth?
Nilo, the Bible says that Satan 'entered into' Judas... and after he did the dirty deed... he left him.
Would Jesus wash the feet of Satan? Yet He washed Judas's feet and had communion with him.
But Sing is right... enough about the eternal destiny of Judas... who was called by name to follow Jesus.... Yet if we cannot recognize that that same evil spirit that overtook Judas can and does overtake us and/or our brethren from time to time then we are missing a huge part of what it means to be depraved.
Nilo
Penny, please read some more what the LORD said about JUDAS, because I think all of my comments about him are with scriptural warrant. But we can not post it now, out of respect to bro SING who wants to talk about JAMES, faith, works, and salvation
I still say, the way I use brethren today is the same that the APOSTLES used brethren during their time. There were a lot of presumptous brethren, brethren who just want the healing, who just want the benefits, but there are HOLY BRETHREN who really were believers.
Inside the churches, the brethren flourished before the persecutions, but when the killings for being a Christian began, the true ones remained while the false ones apostatized
Penny
Nilo... I will certainly read more about it! The Lord can open our eyes to something when we least expect it but HE promises He will... IF we seek Him! If you'd like to msg me with suggestions, I'd love to understand the truth better and in fullness! May the Lord bless us all to seek after His Spirit and Word!
Sing F Lau
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