Things New & Old

Ancient truths revealed in the Scriptures are often forgotten, disbelieved or distorted, and therefore lost in the passage of time. Such ancient truths when rediscovered and relearned are 'new' additions to the treasury of ancient truths. Christ showed many new things to the disciples, things prophesied by the prophets of old but hijacked and perverted by the elders and their traditions, but which Christ reclaimed and returned to His people.

There are things both new and old here. "Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things"
2Ti 2:7.


Monday, March 23, 2015

Divine sovereignty and human responsibility - some thoughts

This represents the popular idea of
divine sovereignty and human responsibility!
Here is an interesting exchange...


Cheddar
If I am not a sheep, what needs to happen for me to become one?
(a reply to this question is found right at the end..sing)

Cray
All men are commanded to repent and obey Christ and honour the gospel...if any do not do this it is entirely their own fault and they reap the consequences of their godless actions and behaviour. The fact that God is Sovereign does not exclude the responsibility of man.

Sing F Lau
All men are commanded to repent and obey Christ and honour the gospel...if any do not do this it is entirely their own fault and they reap the consequences of their godless actions and behaviour. The fact that God is Sovereign does not exclude the responsibility of man.
===================
This is complete nonsense - just being honest and plain, you can take it as rudeness.
I'll explain to you why it is complete nonsense.

You idea necessarily implies that God requires EVEN those whom His expressly did not elect, nor gave to Christ to redeem, and whom Christ expressly did not die for nor redeem, to believe that Jesus Christ is their Saviour.

DO you really believe in such a God?

Who has a duty to believe that Jesus Christ is his Saviour?
Common sense tells me that it is those whom Jesus Christ is indeeed their Saviour. Such alone have OBLIGATION to believe the truth of their salvation in Jesus Christ.

God is sovereign in redemption, in redeeming HIS people; and it is the responsibility of the His REDEEMED people to believe the truth of their redemption, ALREADY FREELY applied to them.

God DOES NOT require any man to believe a lie. God DOES NOT require or command the NON-ELECT to believe Jesus Christ is their Saviour. Jesus Christ is NOT their Saviour.

A man's duty and obligation is determined by the terms of the covenant to which he is a party.

Only those who are party to the covenant of redemption are under the covenant obligation to believe that Jesus Christ is their Saviour.


This represents the biblical teaching on
divine sovereignty and human responsibility!

Cray
I love your style Sing and have no problem with it. The truth is too important to allow inaccuracies to pass by undetected. I will need to reconsider my wording above and reflect upon how that fits within my theological framework.

Sing F Lau
The fact that God is Sovereign does not exclude the responsibility of man.
===================
The sovereignty of God in the context of redemption must be matched by the responsibility of man in the same context - i.e. the responsibility of man must be understood in the context of redemption - those in the covenant of redemption are under obligation to believe the truth of their redemption.

Anything else is just nonsensical.
Tell me that I'm wrong. I would be very happy to hear your reason.

Cray
I like that last statement but have my "thinking cap" on at the moment trying to nut out how that squares with what you have said above.

Sing F Lau
Point out what are squares and what are circles in what I have stated.

Cray 
OK I'll say this...God commands all men to repent and live in accordance with his law. You could agree with that brother?

Cray
The very fact Sing you wrote above: " The fact that God is Sovereign does not exclude the responsibility of man. "...I would assume you agree with my statement.

 Cray
OK, if that is correct it seems to me that God would delight that all men honour his law and live in accordance with his holy standards. Do you agree?

Sing F Lau
God commands all men to repent and live in accordance with his law.
========
Please note, that is starkly distinct from
"All men are commanded to repent and obey Christ and honour the gospel"

Yes, ALL men are under the covenant of creation,under the obligations of the terms of the covenant of creation, creatures owing their duties to the Creator... to obey His commands as God's creatures.

Sing F Lau
Cray, you are the one who wrote this:
"The fact that God is Sovereign does not exclude the responsibility of man."

I just quoted what you are saying!

Cray
Yes and God would delight that all men honour his law

Yes, I see what youre saying now...all that is true but because Christ only died for the eternal salvation of the elect then it follows that the non elect are not obliged to believe that Christ died for them (which is not true!).

As you say above, " Yes, ALL men are under the covenant of creation,under the obligations of the terms of the covenant of creation, creatures owing their duties to the Creator... to obey His commands as God's creatures. " Amen!

Sing F Lau
Yes, the Creator deserves to be honoured by His creatores.

The Redeemer deserved to be honoured by His redeemed.

Different spheres altogether!

When Calvinists mouth this shibboleth of" divine soveriegnty and human responsibility", they are speaking of the responsibility of ALL NATURAL MAN.

That's just a lie, and makes God a liar!

Cray
That's what I was meaning to say in my opening remarks but it got messed up a bit!

Sing F Lau
That's because you are still using the language of the typical and popular calvinism!

Cray
Yes that's excellent Sing...thank you.

Sing F Lau
it is... a typical calvinistic shibboleth...
"All men are commanded to repent and obey Christ and honour the gospel...if any do not do this it is entirely their own fault and they reap the consequences of their godless actions and behaviour. The fact that God is Sovereign does not exclude the responsibility of man."

Cray 
Yeah, my mind is still embedded with some of this thinking. Sing do you agree with Floyd's comments above...you are free to point out the differences...this is where we learn.

Cray 
Floyd writes:" If i can just put a clause here, then let yall get back to the discussion, Gods word was written to the Church. Not to the community or who ever care to pick it up and read it. It is a specific letter to a specific group. God does not desire all men to repent adn God does not desire all men to live according to the law etc. ..NOT if the "all men" means all people ever born. There is no way that God desires a man to repent that is unde\r His wrath " How is this correct and in what ways is it inaccurate if at all?

Sing F Lau
I remember a certain Floyd who befriended me, but he has since "blocked" me I think. I don't see his comments. He abhors my plain speaking.

Cray
I didn't know that. I don't object to your plain speaking. I'm learning...so continue brother in your plain speaking please. I'm learning.

Cray
So waiting for your comments Sing.

Sing F Lau
Comments to what?
I don't make comments when I don't have the luxury of having the author rebutting me!

Cray
Floyd writes:" If i can just put a clause here, then let yall get back to the discussion, Gods word was written to the Church. Not to the community or who ever care to pick it up and read it. It is a specific letter to a specific group. God does not desire all men to repent adn God does not desire all men to live according to the law etc. ..NOT if the "all men" means all people ever born. There is no way that God desires a man to repent that is unde\r His wrath " How is this correct and in what ways is it inaccurate if at all?

Cray
 Is that accurate or not?
 In the interests of truth is that correct biblically?

Sing F Lau
1. God's word was delivered to His redeemed people. The Church is made up of a fraction of the redeemed, gathered out of the world into the visible assemblies of saints.
2. God does not desire all men to repent to repent. He commands all men, all ever born, to repent of their sins. No man has the right to remain in their sins. Each man is under divine obligation as God's creatures to live according to His law. The creatures are under divine obligation to the Creator to live according His law. Failing to do so is the reason and basis for their JUST condemnation.
3. God commands His redeemed to believe in the truth of their FREE redemption in Jesus Christ, and to walk uprightly according to the will of their Father.
4. With respect to the eternal salvation, God sovereignly and freely purposed, and executed, and applies that salvation to each elect. In their temporal salvation, he is not willing that any of them should perish, but do His will and be saved.

Does this help?

Cray
Yes that was excellent thank you. I'm very happy with the explanation given.

Sing F Lau
If I am not a sheep, what needs to happen for me to become one?
========
A man has no basis to say "if I am not a sheep." It is not his business to know whether he is sheep. His business is to believe that he is a sinner under the just condemnation of God, and Jesus Christ is God's provision for SUCH AS him.

It is better asking, "How may I know that I am a sheep?"
Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ gives evidence that one is a sheep!

It is a revealed truth that God has elected a vast multitudes out of the fallen race of Adam, and He has provided Jesus Christ to be their Saviour.

It is not revealed to any one that he is not a sheep.
It is revealed that God provided a all-sufficient Saviour to Saviour sinners...

1Ti 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

 ... more to come...

Take a look at this article dealing with divine sovereignty and human responsibility rightly divided.
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2008/01/why-do-we-pray-for-salvation.html.
                      

Monday, March 16, 2015

"Every branch IN Me..."


 '"Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit." 
John 15:2.

I like the grapes in the picture very much, but I do abhor and detest the many fables people foist upon this plain saying of Jesus Christ.

Whatever the passage says, this much is clear:

1. Jesus is speaking of those that are IN Him. 
- If a man can't get this plain fact right, he won't get anything else right with this passage!

2. Jesus' declaration presupposes that there are branches IN Him that do not bear fruit, i.e. barren! 
- Too many sincere men are choked by this hard truth even though it is in perfect harmony with many other warning against fruitlessness. 
- It is obvious and common sense that the warning of fruitlessness relates to those who are capable of bearing fruit, i.e. those that are in union with Christ. 

3, He makes a declaration concerning such branches in Him - His Father takes them away. 
- Such will suffer severe chastening in the Father's hand!

Despite all these plain facts, sincere folks still believe the fable that there is no such thing as God's children who are barren! 

Whoever relate the issue of fruitlessness with the dead and lifeless but the calvinistic, as well as the arminian preachers and their followers!

Could Christ state the matter in a plainer manner?'
"Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:
and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, 
that it may bring forth more fruit."
John 15:2.

I like the grapes in the picture very much, but I do abhor and detest the many fables people foist upon this plain saying of Jesus Christ.

Whatever the passage says, this much is clear:
1. Jesus is speaking of those that are IN Him.
- If a man can't get this plain fact right, he won't get anything else right with this passage!

2. Jesus' declaration presupposes that there are branches IN Him that do not bear fruit, i.e. barren!
- Too many sincere men are choked by this hard truth even though it is in perfect harmony with many other warning against fruitlessness.
- It is obvious and common sense that the warning of fruitlessness relates to those who are capable of bearing fruit, i.e. those that are in union with Christ.

3, He makes a declaration concerning such branches in Him - His Father takes them away.
- Such will suffer severe chastening in the Father's hand!

Despite all these plain facts, sincere folks still believe the fable that there is no such thing as God's children who are barren!

Whoever would relate the issue of fruitlessness with the dead and lifeless but the calvinistic, as well as the arminian preachers and their followers!

Could Christ have stated the matter in a plainer manner?

4. Every one UNITED to Christ by the free and sovereign grace of God in effectual calling is irrevocably and immutably united with Christ and remained in Christ. 
- Everyone united to Christ by the free and sovereign grace of God REMAINS in Christ forever. 
- Being taken away is not the undoing of that union. Being taken away speak of the FATHERLY chastisment upon fruitless children. 
- To equate the two evidences confusion, and ignorance of the distinct aspects of salvation.
- The former speaks of eternal salvation; the latter speaks of temporal salvation.



Thursday, March 12, 2015

A good conscience

'1Pet 3:21-22

Translation 1
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you - not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him. 

Translation 2
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
 22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

[Thanks to Ante Zivkovic for the alert]

=================
Translation 1:  "an appeal to God for a good conscience."

Translation 2 : "the answer of a good conscience toward God."

And so many think it matters not which translation they use!!!

Even a Chinese village bumpkin like me knows the VAST difference between the two!

"AN APPEAL to God for a good conscience" and "the answer of a good conscience toward God" are two COMPLETELY different things.

For a start: 
- The former implies a man DOES NOT yet have a good conscience; he is appealing to get one.
- The latter presupposes a man has a good conscience, and is doing something to evidence it.

You can think further on the subject.'

 A good conscience:
- is baptism a man's appeal to God for a good conscience, or
- is baptism a man's answer to God from a good conscience?

Or are they same, and don't waste time splitting facial hairs!

1Pet 3:21-22

Translation 1
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you - not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Translation 2
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
[Thanks to Ante Zivkovic for the alert]

=================

Translation 1: "an appeal to God for a good conscience."
Translation 2 : "the answer of a good conscience toward God."

And so many think it matters not which translation they use!!!
Even a Chinese village bumpkin like me knows the VAST difference between the two!
"AN APPEAL to God for a good conscience" and "the answer of a good conscience toward God" are two COMPLETELY different things.

For a start, just state two STARK differences:
- The former implies a man DOES NOT yet have a good conscience; he is appealing to get one.
- The latter presupposes a man has a good conscience, and is doing something to evidence it.

- "... not the removal of dirt from the flesh..."
- "... the putting away of the filth of the flesh...

Only the ignorant cannot discern the vast difference between the two.

You can think further on the subject.

Go here for an excellent article:

Modern Bibles Corrupt Best Verse on Baptism
www.letgodbetrue.com/bible/baptism/best-verse-corrupted.php  
Modern Bibles Corrupt Best Verse on Baptism "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God."