Things New & Old

Ancient truths revealed in the Scriptures are often forgotten, disbelieved or distorted, and therefore lost in the passage of time. Such ancient truths when rediscovered and relearned are 'new' additions to the treasury of ancient truths. Christ showed many new things to the disciples, things prophesied by the prophets of old but hijacked and perverted by the elders and their traditions, but which Christ reclaimed and returned to His people.

There are things both new and old here. "Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things"
2Ti 2:7.

Friday, August 29, 2014

Who does God harden? - a discussion...

softened and pliable... or hardened?

The following was posted on Facebook, and some exchanges took place:

God hardens whom He will. If we have a problem with this, it is because we don't like God being God. He is the Potter; we are the clay. He has the power.

Romans 9:
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

  • Sing F Lau 
    I turned on FB, and your post appeared at the top... I read and a question come to mind...Does the dead need hardening? just wondering. Who does God harden?

  • Charles 
    we need to kill all the dead people and start over!!!

  • Shone 
    The perfect, inspired "word" of God, brings this down to the individual level! These passages clearly explain to me that "Election" is not describing a nation, but by taking it to the individual that is "hardened" such as Pharo, we see The man/individual that questions the authority, holiness and sovereignty of God is answered as well! Oh the depth, width and wonders of His wisdom and Grace!

  • Sing F Lau 
    Those who know enough to make the distinction between eternal salvation and temporal salvation should be helped by that understanding in rightly dividing Rom 9-11... it is about temporal salvation... some of God's elect among the Jews were chosen to honor and the others were left to dishonor. The choice between Jacob and Esau pertains to temporal salvation, not eternal salvation... for that choice was made in time.

  • Shone 
    Both being in the womb, neither knowing good nor evil, Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated. So that the "purpose" of God, according to "Election" might stand. What does "Election" mean to you? Where else does any bible define the Purpose of God? Election by definition means chosen.

  • Sing F Lau 
    Election can meaning ANYTHING, depending on the context!
    There is election in ETERNITY, and there is election in time...
    There is election TO different callings and works and office...

  • Shone 
    So when the angels come at the end time to gather the "Elect" I guess that means timely as well?

  • Sing F Lau 
    The "Elect" in your misguided rhetorical question is a NOUN, and their election occurred BEFORE TIME, in eternity.
    Christ HIMSELF will come to gather His redeemed elect at the end of time!!!

  • Shone 
    Brother, there is no rhetoric with my question. A man slow to anger and ready to teach should see that my question has drastic implications in my understanding. A young believer I may be and ready for instruction when it is given with a peaceable spirit. If my understanding is at fault, my sincerest apologies. My question was from scripture sir. Matthew 21/31. If I have offended you, my apologies, however I see no distinction of time concerning Jacob and Esau!

  • Pj 
     I believe Romans 9 pertains not only to God's temporal fashioning of men, but also to His eternal purposes concerning them.
  • The vessels of clay may, though marred in His hand, be hardened or remade at the Potter's will.

  • Sing F Lau 
    It is always wise policy to believe in BOTH... best insurance policy!!! Can never go completely wrong.

    Paul was at pain to explain the deep mystery why some of God's children among the Jews were unbelieving.

  • Shone 
    Though there was no visible fruit I can glean about Pharo that is "good", I'm still hesitant to say that though he was clearly hardened by God, that he was nonelect. I do believe that Those that have issues with Election "eternally" or otherwise are posed with the question of His sovereignty in all things, for His purpose and for His Glory. I use Pharo because prior to to 18 it is specifically talking about him.

  • Pj
    Bro. Sing, Bro. Shane's not one to beat around the bush as though he harbors some hidden motive. He is quite direct.
    But that is off topic. Haha
  • Sing F Lau 
    "... however I see no distinction of time concerning Jacob and Esau!"
    Your words, "Both being in the womb, neither knowing good nor evil, Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated...."

    Both being in the womb - that is time, not eternity.
    The election of the younger to be a link in the genealogical line leading to the Messiah took place in time. Election unto eternal salvation took place in eternity, not when they were in the womb in time.

  • Sing F Lau 
    My question was from scripture sir. Matthew 21/31.

    Can figure out which particular Scriptures you refer to.

  • Shone 
    Agreed sir! But My understanding of that has been this is the manifestation of that Eternal salvation.

  • My apologies, that should be 24/31
    The announcement of Christs "Jesus" return will be at the blowing of the trump and all the Elect are gathered. 
    That happens at the " end of time"?

  • Pj
    That is true concerning Jacob and Esau.
    Furthermore, one was hated, the other was loved. God had no love whatsoever for Esau. It was a perfect hatred. Plain and simple. But the love He had for Jacob, though He was displeased with him at times, was an everlasting love and there was not, is not, and never will be any thing that can separate him from it.
    In Matthew 24:31 is indeed concerning the ingathering of God's elect, but by angels. They are the messengers of God sent forth to blow the gospel trumpet.
  • Another note is that Matthew 24:27-30 is about Christ's coming to bring judgment upon Jerusalem in 70AD, not His coming to judge the world in righteousness at the Last Day.

    My comment doesn't seem to have stuck, but Matthew 24:27-30 is about Christ's coming to bring judgment upon Jerusalem in 70 AD, not the judgment of the world at the Last Day.

  • Shone 
    I'll have to study that Pj. The teaching I was under for years still causes me to fumble over things. I can see the correlation there though

  • Pj
    No problem, brother. I don't expect anybody to take what I say at face value. Search the scriptures to see whether these things be so!

  • Charles
    Pj, what I'm reading you and Shane saying accords consistently with what Elder HB says about Jacob and Esau. Can I assume that this is true vine teaching of the old school Baptist? I could be wrong but there is a unified core here in the three of you. I am sure we all have shades of grey that make for differences but I see a unified core and is this Primitive Baptist, true vine views.

  • Or perhaps Shane does disagree with you and Elder HB, as I reread over the above comments.

  • HB
    There are no scriptural support for "varying degrees" of God's Love and/or Hate. God "so-loved" and the same with "hate." Kindly

  • Charles 
    God's hatred for Esau was a divine emotion based on condition and that condition was foreseen providentially and not by eternal decree (foreknowledge). There is no varying degree of God's love. God loves his elect perfectly.

  • Sing F Lau 
    "God had no love whatsoever for Esau. It was a perfect hatred. Plain and simple...."

    You may like to demonstrate the truthfulness of your statement... Try it.
    Truth needs no unnecessary exaggeration as crutches!!!

    Mal 1:2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
    Mal 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

    If the reason was Jacob's election unto eternal salvation, the reply WOULDN'T be that rhetorical question - "was not Esau Jacob's brother?"

    The loving and the hating in Esau and Jacob's case is the bypassing of the first born, and granting the blessings of the first born to the second!
    Note the rhetorical question, "Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob", the younger brother was chosen to inherit the blessings belonging to the first born!!!

  • Sing F Lau 
    Charles, my observation is that most [few excepted] PBs instinctively agree with other PBs... they just assume the others are saying the same things regardless. They are VERY fearful of expressing disagreement... From my limited observation, the only Elder who dares correct Elder Hulan is Elder Gowen - a sound and BRAVE man he is!

  • Pj
    In Malachi, God hated Esau. It does not say that He loved him less, as the Arminians and moderated Calvinists would say, but that He hated him.

  • Charles 
    The Arminians say that, Pj, but not the moderated Calvinist, they say that God predestined Esau to the Lake of Fire, reprobation/double predestination. The moderated Calvinist deceive some Arminians (as well as many PBs) into believing God loved Esau less by their hypothetical universal view. They claim both ways (impossibility) God hates Esau perfectly (limited atonement) and God loves Esau less (hypothetical universal atonement- indefinite atonement).

    It is a deception far worse than Benny Hinn, Joel Osteen and Kenneth Copeland. (re: Robert's post on Paul Washer here)

  • Jorge. 
    There are two kinds of blessing, Eternal and temporal, that blessing are both granted by God to Jacob

  • Sing F Lau 
    "In Malachi, God hated Esau. It does not say that He loved him less..."

    Yes, God hated Esau... and the CONTEXT tells us that Esau was hated in the SENSE that his birth-right was sovereignly bypassed by God, and bestowed upon the younger!

    There is no comparison of being love more or love less. I didn't introduce that issue, you did, as a red herring! Meow, where are you - a red herring for your supper!!!

  • Charles 
    no, Jorge, eternal blessings to both, rejected temporally, willfully, by Esau and pretentiously, in ignorance, by Jacob!

    Esau experienced the wrath of God and Jacob experienced mercy! both temporal/emotive reactions of God.

    God's decree to both is love John 3:16 but one experienced everlasting life and the other perished. Both are waiting the final resurrection, bodily, and final judgement.

  • Jorge. 
    So Esau was saved eternally? In that hated of God was for temporal?

  • Charles 
    I am attempting to define a single predestination of the elect to eternal life and avoid a double predestination/reprobation.

    I am also attempting to avoid the argument of a passing over of the non-elect. I admit that is a belief I have not yet decided about.

  • Sing F Lau 
    Jorge, there WAS an election in ETERNITY unto eternal salvation, and there ARE several elections in TIME unto various temporal blessings.

    The election of Esau and Jacob spoken of in Genesis is an election in TIME, when there were already in the womb of Rebekah... it was an election to be in the genealogical line leading to the Messiah, and with it all the temporal blessings!

  • Charles 
    Jorge, I believe so. The hatred and wrath are real for Esau just don't flow from a divine decree, not foreknown by God. His conditions were foreseen, in providence/sovereignty.

  • Jorge. 
    Sing, study again and again and you will fall into mischief .Two much learning will make you mad and not listening to others.
  • God bless

  • Sing F Lau 
    Jorge, study less then, and you will gladly listen to others! One less learning will make you sound much. And the Lord bless you richly!

  • Charles 
    It is Elder HB who needs to do some study, since so many PBs rely on him for the truth! Be nice to hear from Elder Go on this thread.
  • Jorge, it is certainly true that you are not listening to me and you are falling into mischief! You need to do some studying in order to avoid mischief!

  • Shone 
    Charles, I absolutely agree with PJ concerning Election. My points are primarly aimed at the "hardening by God" in respect to Election in regards to what started this post. If we say that Romans 9 is only discussing Hardning in respect to the Jew's lack of believe, why then is Pharo brought into context with that scripture? David himself prayed in the Psalm's for the Lord not to harden his or the people's hart. (forgive my lack of retention on speciffic scripture). Pharo was not a Jew. God hardens "whom he will", down to the individual level. I may be stretching this, but my understanding with the light I have been given is there is no destinction on Elect or NonElect in that. He hardens whom He will for His purpose and His glory, as is the case with Pharo. I do believe that this in no way limits that hardening to "timely" applications at all. Though the Dead may not require hardening from an eternal perspective, they are already hardened by a hart of stone I think everyone whould agree, they are hardened in respect to timley matters to accomplish the will of God. Please understand I am new to the Doctrine so do not drag the horse whips and chains of chastisment out on me until you at least attempt to educate me. I still believe that the Jacob and Essau context is not limited to Timely applications. Reason being, I am struggling with "the Purpose of God according to "election". If this is not the manifestation of that eternal election, what is it then?

  • Charles 
    terrible you use the "chains of chastisement and horse whips" in reference to me. This is a bad exaggeration on your part. Maybe on the other hand I am flattered. The executioners need to wear hoods!!!

    However elder HB is a good mule and it would help if he got a good whipping to straighten our a lot of PBs! Where is my hood, I have misplaced it!!! kindly!

  • Charles 
    I am a godly warrior and sometimes you ignore the foot soldiers and go for the commanders. destroy the head and then systematically you conquer the army!

  •  I am an outsider possibly attached to the true vine! anyway am outside the institutional fellowship and can speak freely without fear of reprisal!

  • I fear that God may be angry with me for not speaking out boldly! I must be obedient!

  • Pj
    Sing, there is a temporal choosing taught in Scripture. I've admitted that. Jesus spoke of it when He said that many are called, but few are chosen. Many are called unto eternal life, but few are chosen unto the abundance of that life.

    In 2 Thessalon
    ians 2:13, the apostle writes that God chose those saints to salvation through two things: sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. That was a temporal choosing.

    That Jacob was chosen for the inheritance is plain, but not Esau, is evident. However, I do not see the context of Romans 9 to be limited to things temporal.

  • Robert 
    CharlesI noticed you mentioned me in this discussion, I will wait and pray because I do not have enough light on this. This matter is now to high for me. I agree with Sing F Lau that there are elections even within the eternally saved for temporal blessings in time. Election is not always pertaining to eternal matters, like all the planets God chose this one to make Adam on. God chose, the God called teachers we have and not all of us the body, etc. God chose to make man and woman by sovereign election, just like He chose Israel over all the nations of the earth, to deliver His word to quite literally . A caution to PB's, let God lead your study not another man. Hear, study, and pray be convinced in your own mind.

  • Shone 
    I do not disagree with a Temporal Election. I just don't think that is what it's talking about concerning Jacob and Esau. Again, if Romans 9 was restricted to the Jew not believing as was proposed, why was Pharaoh (non Jew) mentioned in context? By saying that the Jacob and Esau Election is only a Timely matter, a logical conclusion would be that "the Purpose of God according to Election" is to elect in a timely manner, thus the blessing is only temporal. I find it difficult to ponder that this is the case. With a temporal only application on that verse, the only pointing to Jesus would be through linage only.
    Either way, I have a lot to learn and I thought I had that one pretty much nailed down!!!!!!!!!! Thank you all for provoking!

  • Jorge. 
    There is no question about timely election,asa Sing pointed out,but when he said and conclude that,in Rom.9 was talking,or referring only to timely election ,that sounds Arminians he is.

  • Sing F Lau 
    Hey Jorge, if I'm an Arminian, what are you, a Calvinist?
    When a man resort to name calling, he has lost his cause!
    Tell me which part of Rom 9 is speaking of eternal salvation??

    Who are the subject of Paul's discussion in Rom 9 - God's children among the unbelieving Jews, or the rest of the mankind bypassed in the election unto eternal salvation? If you have a case, all you needed to do is to show that something in Rom 9 that speaks of eternal salvation. Isn't that quite simple?

    Resorting to name calling is SHAMEFUL - below your good name, Sir.

    Sing F Lau  
    "Reason being, I am struggling with "the Purpose of God according to "election". If this is not the manifestation of that eternal election, what is it then?"

    The manifestation of the election of the younger over the elder announce to Rebekah - "Ge 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger."

    Nothing complicated at all... if we rightly divide the word of truth!
    And Jorge, some study is needed to do that! Apostle Paul, the Apostle to the Gentile like you and me SAID THAT!!!