"I have the keys of hell and of death."

Re 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead;
and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen;
and have the keys of hell and of death.

https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=10200127166917402&set=a.10200127166077381

June 17, 2013

'Eternal redemption assuredly secured a man's deliverance from the lake of fire...
But does it  necessarily deliver him from his time in hell!'

I'm only inquiring!

======

Anyone who has read the Scriptures enough will acknowledge that Jesus Himself spoke a great deal on hell, and gave very solemn warnings against ending up in hell.

A simple sample:

Mt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

(There are actions that will put a man in danger of hell fire! Who is Christ addressing here? Does this apply to Christ's redeemed people?)

Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

(There is One who can destroy both soul and body in hell! Who is Christ addressing here? Does this apply to Christ's redeemed people?)

Mt 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

(There are actions that will put a man in danger of hell fire! Who is Christ addressing here? Does this apply to Christ's redeemed people?)

Re 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

(What is the significance of Christ having the keys of hell and death?)

A simple inquiry:

a. Who was Jesus warning against hell: His redeemed people, or those whom He has bypassed?

- If the former, doesn't it imply that the danger of His redeemed people ending up in hell is a harsh reality? If it is claimed that it is impossible for His redeemed people to ever end up in hell, then what is the relevance of His solemn warnings to them?

- If the latter, is Jesus teaching that it is possible that the non-redeemed can escape hell by some actions on their part? Is Jesus teaching eternal salvation by works then?

A simple affirmation:

Kindly note: None of all that are redeemed by Christ will ever end up in the everlasting lake of fire. Christ's eternal redemption secured eternal glory for every one of the redeemed; none will end up in the lake of fire. All whose names are written in the Book of life will not end up in the lake of fire.

This is not the same as saying that none of them will end up in hell temporarily before their assured glorification at the resurrection.

Let's open the Scriptures, and learn together to rightly divide the word of truth together! Thanks. I don't need your opinions, and you don't need mine. We need the plain revelation of the Scriptures.
==========

30 comments

Dallas Eaton II
Amen. May I share this?

Sing F Lau
Everything you can see is for the whole world to see and consider!

Dallas Eaton II
thank you Brother Sing.

Adam Wells
Good questions.

Dallas Eaton II
I would agree with that Brother Julius. I would make a distinction between Hell, that is as in Death and Hell and the Lake of Fire. Death and Hell are to be cast into the Lake of Fire. What many people understand to be 'eternal Hell' is really the lake of fire where even the imagined dominion of Satan (imagined among many as his being a ruler of the condemned in Hell) is cast into for eternal torment.

[A Julius has deleted some of his comments!]

Sing F Lau
Julius, I'm just wondering if there is such a thing as eternal hell? Could you kindly demonstrate to us that it is not just your own opinion but plainly taught in the Scriptures, please. THANK YOU.

Sing F Lau
Julius, I don't have time for games... neither word nor sound games!
You said, "There is eternal hell and a hell on this earth."

I request, show such OPINIONS from the Scriptures.
Thanks.

Julius Stewart
OK I fixed it for you. I deleted all my comments since they had no scriptural viability. Good day!

Sing F Lau.
Julius, you are just shameless. 
You made some assertions, I requested you for Scriptural proof, and you throw a tantrum! You don't need to fix anything for me! Fix your fickle mindedness!

If you were sincere, you should leave those comments as they are... so that others won't repeat the same fable without biblical support!

Julius Stewart
You are right Sing. I am wrong. I can't do anything right. Please forgive me. I will no longer bother you with any of my assumptions or comments.

Sing F Lau
Who cares whether you or I am right??? If that's what you are concerned about, this is not the right place for you. We want to know what the Scriptures say. A man is free to say what he wants... we want Scriptures to back up what a man claims... otherwise it is just his opinions!!!

Sing F Lau
Now give your opinions some worth that they are based on Scriptures... "There is eternal hell and a hell on this earth."

Sing F Lau
Please tell us how have your three comments above have in any way proven that hell is eternal?

Make sure you don't work from phone and drive at the same time... a speedy way to hell! <LOL>

Julius Stewart
uncle! I delete it again. Have a nice life Sing!

Julius Stewart
No worries for me I guess because in your estimation hell is not eternal. I guess it's just temporary both in time and eternity.

Sing F Lau
Poor fickle double-minded Julius! Don't waste your time if you don't intend to help us better understand the Scriptures. There is no need for you to guess what I believe. That would be toooo busybody as well as foolish of you. I'm capable of stating plainly what I do believe. State what you believe and show us that it is from the Scriptures. Anything else is irrelevant.

Julius Stewart
So you deny the eternal sonship of Christ and the eternal hell?

Sing F Lau
If you desire to know what I believe about eternal sonship of Christ, go to the relevant articles in the blog to read it. If you want to know what I believe about hell and the lake of fire, you can linger on and behave like a student of God's word, and we can study together.

Julius Stewart
I have read it. You deny both.

Julius Stewart
Yes or no. Do you deny both?

Sing F Lau
And just what do I believe, may I ask?
Beware of bearing false witness.

I know you are annoyed because I say that you are acting like a fickle double-minded lad!!! Why should I entertain a fickle-minded lad like you?

Julius Stewart
It's a yes or no question. Now who is fickle?

Sing F Lau
Rev 20: 11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
==============

[The activities are all described in the prophetic past tense to indicate their absolute certainty of coming to the past... they are as good as has happened... accomplished fact. God's sovereignty and immutability guarantee these.]

Their actual fulfilment is yet in the future... at Christ's return to judge the world.

A few observations from this 5-verses paragraph:

i. The momentous events described here shall occur at the end of time... at the threshold of eternity when the begotten Son of the eternal God shall sit upon His great white throne.

ii. Death and hell shall deliver up the dead in them at the end of time.
- Death and hell shall be emptied of their captives. None shall remain in death or hell anymore after that. Therefore, hell shall be emptied, and discarded.
- Hell's temporal/timely function shall cease at the end of time. At the end of time, hell shall have served its purpose.
- The EMPTIED death and hell shall be tossed into the lake of fire.

iii. Those delivered up by death and hell shall be judged every man according to their works.

iv. All those dead delivered up by death and hell whose names are not written in the Book of life shall be cast into the lake of fire.

- Those dead delivered up by death and hell whose names are found written in the Book of life shall not be cast into the lake of fire.

v. Verse 15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" obviously implies, in context, that of all those dead delivered up by death and hell, there are those whose names are written in the book of life, and others not written in the book of life.

Now, your turn to speak from the Scriptures.

Julius Stewart
Yes or no?

Julius Stewart
Regardless the lake of fire as you have shown in your understanding or interpretation is a place of final destruction. Will that destruction continue for eternity? Is it an eternal ongoing forever place of hell and destruction. Yes or no?

Sing F Lau
Yes, Julius Stewart is a fickled double-minded lad; and no, he is not a good student of the Bible! <LOL> How about that for a yes and no answer? Ya, I sure love goading you a wee bit!!!

Remember, you are a guest here! If you want to study the Scriptures, you are welcome to stay.

If you want to study the subject of the sonship of Jesus Christ, start a thread somewhere, and I may join in.

Julius Stewart
You will not answer the question. You made the jump to this site because Dallas copied your post. I deleted you Sing! Know the facts man. You will not answer the question. Not me.

Sing F Lau
Julius, you are foolish smart aleck... you have already publicly accused me of denying eternal hell (in your understanding of eternal torment), why are you asking me something on which you have declared your judgment? You pretend to be able to read my mind on the matter even before I have expressed my understanding!

Sing F Lau
I have changed the security setting of this thread from "Public" to "Friends Only." I hope this will get rid of that little pesky raving PB lad!!!

Julius said I made the jump to this site because Dallas copied my post!!!

I don't know what site he is about!

OK. Julius wants me to give credit to Dallas for whatever reason I know not.

Thanks, Dallas.

Sing F Lau
There is ONE BASIC presupposition in all of those warnings on hell by the Lord Jesus Christ
Hell can be avoided...
Hell is to be avoided by God's children.
And hell is to be avoided by the effort and conduct of God's children.

Christ alone has delivered God's people from the lake of fire by His work of eternal redemption!

To the non-elect, those not redeemed by Jesus Christ, hell, as well as the lake of fire CANNOT POSSIBLY be avoided.

Rev 20:15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

"Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine!

June 17, 2017

"Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." 1Tim 4:16.

Otherwise, what is the outcome? Temporal destruction of both the preacher and his flock!

"Collapsing any nation does not require the use of atomic bombs or the use of long-range missiles. It only requires lowering the quality of education and allowing cheating in the examinations by the students". (see full quote at the bottom)

EVEN SO, the downfall of any church. All it takes is undermining the ministry of the word; lower the faithfulness to, and expectation of, the word of truth in the ministry of the word, and the demise of the church is assured.

This explains the solemn charge of Paul to Timothy: "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine." 2Ti 4:2

Also, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2Ti 2:15

Since the command is to preach the word, the church must not tolerate anything else in the pulpit. Lowering the standard is suicidal!

The command to be instant in season and out of season in preaching requires the solemn duty to hear with the same urgency.

Not doing so is undermining the ministry of the word!

"Moreover, it is required in stewards that a man be found faithful." 1Cor 4:2. A church must not tolerate unfaithfulness in the ministry. Doing so is suicidal!!!

Now, you see the reason for this injunction:

"Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." 1Tim 4:16.

Nothing doing so brings destruction to BOTH the preacher himself and his flock.

===========

 * A University professor wrote an expressive message to his students at the doctoral, master's, and bachelor's levels and placed it at the entrance to a university in South Africa.

And this is the message:

"Collapsing any nation does not require the use of atomic bombs or the use of long-range missiles. It only requires lowering the quality of education and allowing cheating in the examinations by the students".

The patient dies in the hands of such doctors.

And the buildings collapse in the hands of such engineers.

And the money is lost in the hands of such accountants.

And humanity dies in the hands of such religious scholars.

And justice is lost in the hands of such judges...

"The collapse of education is the collapse of the nation"

Two Types of Disciples; which type are you?

 

June 17, 2018 
 https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/pfbid0TfuuxG8X2187EDkkgg3eQm5D7W56V2Y7eb4SLEpmGqgmYL8dTTXEb6z3YjDkPnTCl

Two Types of Disciples; which type are you?

Brother HC introduced our first service today; he read from John 6:44-69 and drew our attention to the two types of disciples spoken of in the passage. Thank you, Brother.

Of the one group, it is noted of them, "From that time many of HIS DISCIPLES [emphasis, mine] went back, and walked no more with him." v66.

Of the other, when challenged by Christ, "Will ye also go away?", replied with great pathos, "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God."

We were reminded why many of Christ's disciples went back and walked no more with Him. "Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, this is an hard saying: who can hear it?" v60.

This sad phenomenon has not changed, has it?

Disciples, yes, EVEN the disciples of Jesus Christ are offended by all sorts of hard sayings of the Lord in the Holy Scriptures. They cannot bring themselves to humbly believe the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

But thanks be to God that there are also those who confess, "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God." Amen.

Such are exhorted to hold fast, to remain steadfast, lest they fall. We live in a perilous time. See 2Tim 4:1ff. God's children are turned away from the truth unto fables.
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16 comments

Adam Wells
Can those that turned away be called true disciples? He told them the only reason they were seeking Him was because their bellies had been filled (6:26). The Father must draw each man, which is God's operation of changing a heart toward Jesus Christ (6:44,65). Why did Jesus use hard sayings? Because He knew the majority of the crowd were insincere believers He needed to send away (6:64).

Sing F Lau
Can those that turned away be called true disciples?  Good question.
(Similar questions: Can those who made shipwreck of their faith be called true disciples? Those represented by fruitless grounds in Mt 13, can they be called true disciples?) 

I have moved on from using "true" and "false" - a zero-sum game played by many Christians.

"The Father must draw each man, which is God's operation of changing a heart toward Jesus Christ (6:44,65)" - you would agree that this deals with the eternal salvation of those drawn to Christ.

I certainly hope that by the statement, i.e. - The Father must draw each man, which is God's operation of changing a heart toward Jesus Christ (6:44,65) - you are NOT implying or concluding that, therefore each man drawn by God to Christ will be a disciple, and that he will continue to abide with Christ; i.e. that none who is drawn by God to Christ will be a disciple that will not turn away from following Christ. I just wish that that reformed fiction is true indeed. Then it would be much easier for Christ's undershepherd.

The effectual calling unto eternal salvation and the discipleship unto temporal salvation need to be distinguished - confounding them has produced all the mess of inconsistencies and contradictions in popular Calvinism.

The disciples turned away because of hard sayings is dealing with temporal salvation.

The doctrine of election is a hard saying to many who claim themselves disciples of Jesus Christ; so also justification by the faith of Christ, regeneration without means, etc. These are distinct from the enigmatic sayings of the parables.

The noun is the disciples; of these, there are good and faithful ones, there are bad and unfaithful ones, and there are diligent and lazy ones... Of the disciples, there are those who are barren and others who are of varying fruitfulness.

I have not seen a false man before; I have seen dead men and living men, big and small men, male and female men, etc. Of the living men, there are healthy robust ones and there are sickly ones...fruitful ones and barren ones and all in between. Of the healthy ones, there are among them mentally retarded, some crippled and some handicapped. They are all men, none of them false men. 

Even false brethren are brethren; they are brethren who are misguided and teach falsehood and errors.

Like the RBs, I USED TO say, "If a man does not persevere in a life of faith and holiness, he can't possibly be a child of God to start with." Grace has taught me to see things from a different perspective.

A distinction between eternal salvation and temporal salvation has helped me not a little in rightly dividing the word of truth.

Sorry for my ramblings.

Adam Wells
I don't disagree that there are weaker vs stronger brothers, i.e. disciples, however, that is not presented here in John 6. What we see are those who made a profession and did not continue, thus proving themselves to be insincere believers. "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed." John 8:31

I do not follow the PB's in their strange idea of the unconverted elect being everywhere. (Though I do understand from Romans that there can be some.) Jesus consistently taught that his sheep hear and obey. I have never been an RB or PB and wish to avoid both ditches.

Perhaps you could view the notes here:
http://www.letgodbetrue.com/pdf/john-six.pdf and http://www.letgodbetrue.com/pdf/john-eight.pdf

Sing F Lau
Thanks for your thoughts.

You said, "I do not follow the PB's in their strange idea of the unconverted elect being everywhere. (Though I do understand from Romans that there can be some.)"

When you say, "though I do understand from Romans that there can be some", are you just conceding the POSSIBILITY that there may be such, or are you acknowledging that the WERE indeed such? Just asking to make sure that I understand you properly. If the latter, then it is not so strange after all, isn't it? Can't keep the cake and eat it too! 😉

Also, I need to inquire about your idea of conversion. Some sincere folks' understanding of conversion is synonymous with regeneration, i.e. conversion from spiritual deadness to grace and salvation. I believe you are not confusing the two. Before the last trump, there shall indeed be no unregenerated elect being anywhere on earth - that I wholly agree. I hope we can agree on that point. However, consistency necessarily requires you to affirm, "Before the last trump, there shall indeed be no unCONVERTED elect being anywhere on earth."

So, I take it that by conversion, you mean by the conversion as in "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:9-15.

Since you do not follow the PB's (you chose to attribute that teaching to them; I attribute the teaching to the Scriptures) idea of the unconverted elect being anywhere, the simple implication is that you do follow after the common and popular idea that every elect, without exception, will be converted through the preaching and hearing of, and the believing in, the word of God during their lifetime here on earth, and shall surely ABIDE as disciples to the end of their life; none shall turn away.

Is that implication drawn fairly? If not, what is a fair implication?

Adam Wells
I think we are on the same page concerning conversion, it is not a once-and-done event and IS NOT synonymous with regeneration. I do not hold the view "that every elect, without exception, will be converted through the preaching and hearing of, and the believing in, the word of God during their lifetime here on earth." That the scripture bears this out is well understood however, scripture is written to the elect with a bent towards discipleship, I have no way to think that I or anyone else is elect unless I/they both believe in and obey the Lord Jesus.

Sing F Lau
Adam @ "I don't disagree that there are weaker vs stronger brothers, i.e. disciples, however, that is not presented here in John 6. What we see are those who made a profession and did not continue, thus proving themselves to be insincere believers. "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed." John 8:31
========

The Scriptures state that many of His disciples went back because of the hard sayings of the Lord. You chose to conclude that since they turned back and did not abide, they were no disciples at all - if I understand you correctly.

John 6
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Those who proved to be insincere believers, are they believers or are they not? The "believers" is a noun, that's what they are; "insincere" is an adjective, providing more information about the noun, i.e. they are insincere. Insincere men don't cease to be men, do they; they are men marked by a certain attribute, insincerity. The lazy and wicked servant is a servant nonetheless but a lazy and wicked servant who deserves severe stripes.

The disciples indeed are the disciples that are represented by the good ground; those who are not disciples indeed are like those represented by the three other types of ground, Mt 13. (All four types of ground are descriptions of disciples!!!) The branches that abide are disciples indeed; they that don't are no less vine branches, such shall suffer the temporal judgment. Fruitless vine branches are a harsh reality, John 15. Fruitless grounds are also a harsh reality. It is easy to just dismiss the fruitless vine branches as thornbushes (or the fruitless ground as granite!) Such are in fact accusing the Lord of expecting grapes from thornbushes.

The warning of John 8:31 presupposes the real danger of those who have believed in Jesus the Messiah not continuing in His word. The Lord was not dealing with hypothetical; the danger of the believers not continuing in Christ's word is real. The Lord didn't waste His words dealing with fictional danger.

Sing F Lau
Thanks for the references. When I have an opportunity, I will take a look.

Adam Wells
Did you get a chance to view the references? It is written more clearly than I am able to do at this point.

Sing F Lau
Maybe I fail to understand your initial statement: "I do not follow the PB's in their strange idea of the unconverted elect being everywhere."

May I ask, when you said you do not follow PB's in their strange idea of the unconverted elect being everywhere:
- by "do not follow" do you mean you don't understand or you don't agree with that idea?
- have you actually met a PB who believes that unconverted elect being EVERYWHERE?

Perhaps you have set up a straw man, or at least misrepresented their position. In any case, I have not heard of a PB who entertains the strange idea that the unconverted elect being EVERYWHERE. When we can't represent others correctly, we have not earned the right to dispute them.

I have heard of PBs who believe that there are God's children, i.e. the elect that are regenerated, who remain UN-reached or IN-capable of being reached, by the gospel ministry and therefore remain UN-converted in this life.
(This is affirmed by the Particular Baptists in 1689.10.3... "... so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.)

On the one hand, you said: "I do not follow the PB's in their strange idea of the unconverted elect being everywhere."

When pointed out the necessary implication of your statement, you said:
"I do not hold the view "that every elect, without exception, will be converted through the preaching and hearing of, and the believing in, the word of God during their lifetime here on earth."

Can I then conclude then that you do believe that there are unconverted elect being SOMEWHERE, since you admitted: "that the scripture bears this out is well understood."

Adam Wells
I apologise if my statement is a bit vague or unclear. I am certainly not trying to misrepresent anyone. Would I be correct to say that you would liken these John 6 "disciples" which turned back, to those who choose the wide and broad way described in Matt 7:13? And that the destruction spoken of in verse 13 is only temporal in nature? If so, this is what I meant by elect being everywhere. I certainly agree with you that we should not be as those who turned aside, however, I differ in that I don't believe that the scripture is here pointing out elect people who couldn't continue; thus there are not two types of disciples, only one. Disciples of Christ love and obey him.

Sing F Lau
I'm still trying to understand what you are saying.
Maybe my little mind is confused by the way you use "elect" and "disciples".

What's the connection between "unconverted elect everywhere" and the disciples?

You said, "However I differ in that I don't believe that the scripture is here pointing out elect people who couldn't continue; thus there are not two types of disciples, only one."

You have "elect people" and the "disciples" together in the statement above. How are they related?

You don't believe that the scripture (I assume you are referring to John 6:44-69) is here pointing out elect people who couldn't continue.

So what do you believe that the scripture is pointing out?
- the scripture is pointing out that the elect are those who do continue? (the corollary, those who don't continue are not elect)?
- the scripture is pointing out that Christ's disciples who turned back were not elect people?
- Let me hear from the stallion's mouth?

Adam Wells
What I am saying is that though the word here used is "disciples," the John 6 hearers were not genuine and thus not really disciples. The passage bears that out and makes it clear to us. I used the word "elect" to try to make my meaning clear which seemed to only muddy the waters. Please disregard it if it isn't clear to you. What I did want to make clear is that Jesus' hard sayings or hard preaching sifted out those who were genuine vs those who were not.

As he spake these words, many believed on him. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
John 8:30-31

Belief or mental consent is not enough, hence the statement in John 8.

Sing F Lau
Adam, permit me to ask one last question. Your answer will help me.

Those disciples that turned back from following Christ, whom you described as not genuine, do you consider them as unconverted elect or converted elect, or not elect at all?

Thanks.

Adam Wells
I've no reason to believe that these John 6 hearers are elect.

Sing F Lau
At last, I understood you. I should have asked that question at the beginning. Thanks.

Sing F Lau
Adam @ "However, scripture is written to the elect with a bent towards discipleship, I have no way to think that I or anyone else is elect unless I/they both believe in and obey the Lord Jesus."
=============

That's so true. The Scriptures are obviously intended for the sentient elect who are capable of being called out as disciples. Pictures are for those who have sight!

This is NOT THE SAME as saying all the elect without exception have access to the Scriptures or the ministry of the word in their lifetime here on earth and are all converted. There are God's children (regenerated elect) who remain UN-converted in their lifetime; the lifetime of some is brief!

"I have no way to think that I or anyone else is elect unless I/they both believe in and obey the Lord Jesus." Someone said, just because you don't see that dazzling flower in the harsh desert does not mean that that unknown flower does not exist! God's children exist OUTSIDE of the little world of our limited experience.

I'm in hearty agreement that no man has any ground or basis to claim that he is a child of God UNLESS he believes in the gospel of Jesus Christ and obeys him. The statement presupposes that the gospel of Jesus Christ has been presented unto him. Those who have never had the gospel preached to them have often been injuriously and wrongly labelled as unbelievers.

Say hello to Fawn and the four children. Your family is remembered by the church here.

No faith, no justification says some RBs

  

Dear sister BumbleBee,

Thank you very much for your effort in proofreading. See my comments below, after yours marked ##

## Pastor Hoe in one of his sermons did say: “We are not justified by our faith but by the work of Christ alone.”  In another sermon previous to this, he also said that “we are justified by God’s grace alone, and by Christ’s blood, but this justification comes to us by faith”.  So, no one is “actually” justified in time until a person repents and believes in Christ.

sing: Finally speaking, it still boils down to “No faith, no justification” no matter how Pastor Hoe qualifies about justification by the work of Christ alone and justification by God’s grace alone. The bottom line is ‘justification by faith alone’ and that is a serious error.

We are justified
- by the grace of God (the MANNER it is applied, freely, at effectual calling) alone 
- through the blood of Christ alone (the BASIS/GROUND, at the cross), and
- faith and works of faith are (MEANS/INSTRUMENT) make manifest this free grace justification. (like breath manifests life.)

The Scripture says, ‘The just shall live by faith.’ This is repeated no less than 3 times in the Scriptures.

This simple declaration that the just shall live by faith alone is enough to tell us that faith is the effect of justification. The just are those justified by God. It is the JUSTIFIED ONES (past tense) that shall live (future, indicative) by faith (believing in Christ). Abraham was a classic proof – because Abraham was ALREADY a justified man, he believed the gospel of the promised seed – Gen 15:1-6, Romans 4:1-8. His believing is counted to him for righteousness, I.E. his faith was blessed to experience the blessedness of his justified state.

Think about this carefully… IT IS “the just shall live by faith”… and NOT “by faith, the condemned shall be justified and live” – this is commonly believed.

## It was said, “No repentance, no eternal life.”  Conversion is essential to salvation.

sing: Here’s a riddle: how does a person without life (spiritual and eternal) ever believe or repent?

Here is another riddle: how does a person without eternal life ever be converted – persuaded and embrace the gospel?

An elect is given eternal salvation so that he can be converted to know and experience temporal salvation here on earth. Eternal salvation is by grace from beginning to end. Temporal salvation is conditioned upon obedience to the gospel. Conversion is obedience to the gospel. Conversion is only possible because God has FIRST bestowed eternal life. 

## With regeneration we have a new nature.   And conversion is the first act of that new nature.

sing: With regeneration, we are given eternal life (the term spiritual life is not used in the Scriptures, but eternal life is spiritual life). The eternal life begotten in us explains the new nature. The eternal life ANIMATES all spiritual activities that follow.

So this third statement CORRECTLY admits that eternal life must PRECEDE repentance and faith. It, therefore, CONTRADICTS the second statement above, which is erroneous. 
[Do you notice that Cornelius manifested many acts of the new nature BEFORE he was converted by Apostle Peter's ministry?]

## Below is a summary of my understanding on the teaching thus far (which I think both parties would agree?).  The circle with the red outline represents the “redeemed of the LORD”. 

sing: I have a similar diagram – much simpler based on the 1689.10. The framers were theologians… and theologians of those days were all trained logicians because logic was one of the primary disciplines.

The Venn diagram below summarizes chapter 10 of the 1689 CoF:

M = the whole mankind; E = all the elect, and consists of those who are capable as well as those who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the word; G = all those who are outwardly called by the ministry of the word, those of the elect and non-elect.

I am in complete agreement with the truth summarized by the 1689.10.

Let me outline here the logical order and the relationship of the 4 paragraphs:

Para 1: describes the effectual calling of ALL the elect. All the elect are effectually called to eternal life in precisely the same manner at God’s appointed and accepted time – whether they are infants or adults, sound minds or idiots, capable or incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the word.

[This is the only and only way EVERY elect is brought to grace and salvation by the Triune God. There is not a NORMAL WAY nor an EXCEPTIONAL WAY. God has only one way of salvation. The exceptional way is invented by confused men to accommodate their confused minds.] 

Para 2: describes all those effectually called elect in Para 1 who receive the outward gospel call.

Para 3: describes all those effectually called elect in Para 1 who do not receive the outward gospel call. For various reasons, they are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the word. The gospel call has reference to those who have the capacity to hear and understand, who can be communicated with the gospel. It is irrelevant to all others.

[This is not an exceptional way of salvation. These are among the elect in paragraph 1, therefore included in paragraph 1, an are saved by God in the same way. These people are not outwardly called by the gospel. But they are saved by God in the one and same way.]

Para 4: describes all those not in Para 1, i.e., those who are not predestinated to eternal life, but who have the outward gospel call.

You don’t need to reply to this.

I will send you a book to read – if you have time to read at all before your early retirement.

By grace alone,
sing

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Fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

 

March 3, 2016
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/pfbid033vkjt1BDftMB1B4zm5dMpnsWy2725ccAzEpdWA7NmPHVSQujwoorSyajF5UP6JzLl

Choose who you will fear, but make sure you know the consequences.

Matthew 10
1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples...
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them...
16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves...
17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The Lord Jesus Christ was addressing His twelve disciples throughout the whole chapter. How is the warning - fear not men, but fear God - to the disciples to be understood?

Doesn't the warning PRESUPPOSE the real possibility of the disciples fearing men rather than fearing God? Otherwise, isn't the warning rendered completely irrelevant.

What is the reason the disciples are to fear God, and not men?
What is the intention of the warning to the disciples?

1. Disciples, if you fear God, and thus disobey man, this will happen:
- you will suffer the displeasure of men who is only able to kill the body; the loss will be minimal.

2. Disciples, if you fear man, and thus disobey God, this will happen:
- you will suffer the displeasure of him who is able to destroy both your soul and body in hell; the loss will be great.

I have recently heard that the effect of the warning is this:

3. Disciples, you have no need to fear men because God can destroy both their bodies and soul in hell!

What is your thought?

--------------

Robert Cook Sr.
#3 is a mischaracterisation of my position Sing! Christ is reminding ALL those gathered to hear him speak not just disciples, There was a great multitude that followed Him, They were astonished but not all disciples. the message being preached was a message of repentance to the Jews(Matthew 4:17) of that nation, hence only found in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and James one reference each this warning is to the Jewish nation, the Everlasting Fire could very well be The destruction of Jerusalem. To teach that the redeemed of Christ having been PERFECTED forever perverts the justice of God! We suffer here in time for our (the elect) sins and after death we go straight to be with the Lord, Genesis 49:33, Deuteronomy 32:50.

Sing
No intention to mischaracterize your position at all. That's the way I understood what you said.

Robert Cook Sr.
I know that already about you! I meant no harm!

Sing
It is obvious that the Lord is addressing the TWELVE disciples. If there is dispute about this, then we have to settle this first.

Robert Cook Sr.
Sing he is addressing the Multitude with the Disciples present also. Matthew 7:28-29, begins at 5:1 He seeing the multitudes he went up into a mountain and his disciples followed him this discourse goes on non stop til we reach Chapter 7:8 it is plain to those that understand the audience included the Disciples but was not limited to them.

Robert Cook Sr.
Sing, the first time Jesus spoke these words he spoke to all hearing the reference I gave, Your question came out of Matthew 10 which is very similar to The Luke 12 account, and again Jesus is not saying if you forget who to fear you will burn in hell, but it is a comparative statement of actual encouragement by the surrounding context, of WHOM has the greater power and care for them, so not to fear the lessor man. I originally was focused only on the Matthew 5:1-7:29 reference, sorry!

[sing: v27 "What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Robert, it's strange you WON'T and REFUSE to admit that Jesus was addressing His twelve disciples whom He was sending out! Prejudice debilitates!]

Sing
The Sermon on the Mount is addressed to the disciples too. It didn't matter if others were present. If you were addressing your sons, your words were intended for your sons, and not their friends who were around.

Men would waste words on redundant things, Christ Jesus doesn't. Why would He waste words warning the disciples of the real danger of hell if there was no possibility of them landing there?

Robert Cook Sr.
Again Sing, I contest your interpretation of the words "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." It is a reminder to all those hearing, That the greatest power supersedes the lessor, who is on your side is the context, the hairs of your head, the sparrows are ye not greater value than sparrows, it is a comparison, to encourage that their God is of greater power than those who only kill the body. This is the theme of Luke 12, and Matthew 10 the key is in verse 22 He that endureth to the end shall be saved, If your interpretation is true then Peter went to hell also, because he was fearful of men denied the Lord in Public. He was by the way one of those being instructed, on the events in question. Peter never mentions that he has to first go to hell then at the Resurrection will be allowed in heaven, 1 Peter 1:3-5.

Robert Cook Sr.
Sing F Lau, Jesus was not warning his disciples of hell as you speak He was in a comparative sense reminding them though man may threaten you His Father has the greater power, You are trying to overthrow the perfect and complete atonement because we are complete in Him, by forcing a doctrine on a few verses that seem to imply to you that God redeemed children will still suffer beyond this life until Resurrection day, That my friend is gross error.

Sing
Robert Cook Sr: Christ's perfect and complete atonement saved His people from the lake of fire. And hell and the lake of fire are distinct. Rev 20:13-15.

Robert Cook Sr.
Sing F Lau the word hell is like every other word in Scripture it must be rightly divided based on context and precept I am not denying hell exists nor am I denying the grave exists, what I am denying is that the elect will spend anytime in a place called hell that the non-elect do! Your understanding puts the elect in a place called hell!

Sing
Robert Cook Sr. Yes, that is why Christ solemnly warned His own disciples about hell and take drastic measures to avoid it; He never once warned them about the lake of fire. He redeemed them from the lake of fire. It is that simple to me.

Robert Cook Sr.
I replied to this very line of argument above 5 years ago. I know what you teach and have demonstrated why I believe you are wrong, maybe going back and reading Romans 8 the entire chapter that focuses on the axiom taught in verse 33.

Sing
Robert Cook Sr. Romans 8:33 KJV — Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

God's gracious act of justification saved a man from the lake of fire, not hell.

Deliverance from the eternal lake of fire is eternal salvation.

Deliverance from hell requires the obedience of God's children to do the will of the Father, i.e. fearing Him, the fear of man bringeth a snare, causes a man to sin against God. Pr 29:25.
Rom 8:33 doesn't help your argument.

Robert Cook Sr.
Sing F Lau Sure it does. Your contention is that God holds His children guilty after physical death yet the text denies your assertion, as a matter of fact the entire chapter does. You are trying to force an intermediate state between physical death and the last day that the word of God does not support, "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"! I offered you an explanation above for the text that warns the disciples but you have now for five years ignored it for your own opinion so have at it and let God be that Judge.

Sing
Robert Cook Sr. I set plain Scriptures before you that Christ warned His own disciples to take drastic measures to avoid hell, but you want to believe that there can be no hell for God's children... as though Christ's redemptive work is to deliver His people from the temporal hell. Scriptures say Christ's work delivered His people from the eternal lake of fire, not the temporal hell.

He wasted all his solemn warning on hell on His disciples.
Stalemate, Sir Robert!

Robert Cook Sr.
Sing F Lau I agree stalemate my brother! 🙂

(The distinction between eternal salvation by grace alone from the eternal lake of fire and the temporal salvation from temporal hell conditioned upon God's children doing their Father's will makes this matter so obvious.)