June
17, 2018
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Two Types of Disciples; which type are you?
Brother HC introduced our first service today; he read from John 6:44-69 and
drew our attention to the two types of disciples spoken of in the passage.
Thank you, Brother.
Of
the one group, it is noted of them, "From that time many of HIS DISCIPLES
[emphasis, mine] went back, and walked no more with him." v66.
Of
the other, when challenged by Christ, "Will ye also go away?",
replied with great pathos, "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words
of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son
of the living God."
We
were reminded why many of Christ's disciples went back and walked no more with
Him. "Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said,
this is an hard saying: who can hear it?" v60.
This
sad phenomenon has not changed, has it?
Disciples,
yes, EVEN the disciples of Jesus Christ are offended by all sorts of hard
sayings of the Lord in the Holy Scriptures. They cannot bring themselves to
humbly believe the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
But
thanks be to God that there are also those who confess, "Lord, to whom
shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure
that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God." Amen.
Such
are exhorted to hold fast, to remain steadfast, lest they fall. We live in a perilous time. See 2Tim 4:1ff. God's children are turned away from the truth
unto fables.
-----------
16
comments
Adam
Wells
Can
those that turned away be called true disciples? He told them the only reason
they were seeking Him was because their bellies had been filled (6:26). The
Father must draw each man, which is God's operation of changing a heart toward
Jesus Christ (6:44,65). Why did Jesus use hard sayings? Because He knew the
majority of the crowd were insincere believers He needed to send away (6:64).
Sing
F Lau
Can
those that turned away be called true disciples? Good
question.
(Similar questions: Can those who made shipwreck of their faith be called true disciples? Those represented by fruitless grounds in Mt 13, can they be called true disciples?)
I
have moved on from using "true" and "false" - a zero-sum game played by many Christians.
"The
Father must draw each man, which is God's operation of changing a heart toward
Jesus Christ (6:44,65)" - you would agree that this deals with the eternal
salvation of those drawn to Christ.
I
certainly hope that by the statement, i.e. - The Father must draw each man,
which is God's operation of changing a heart toward Jesus Christ (6:44,65) -
you are NOT implying or concluding that, therefore each man drawn by God to
Christ will be a disciple, and that he will continue to abide with Christ; i.e.
that none who is drawn by God to Christ will be a disciple that will not turn
away from following Christ. I just wish that that reformed fiction is true
indeed. Then it would be much easier for Christ's undershepherd.
The
effectual calling unto eternal salvation and the discipleship unto temporal
salvation need to be distinguished - confounding them has produced all the mess
of inconsistencies and contradictions in popular Calvinism.
The
disciples turned away because of hard sayings is dealing with temporal
salvation.
The
doctrine of election is a hard saying to many who claim themselves disciples of
Jesus Christ; so also justification by the faith of Christ, regeneration
without means, etc. These are distinct from the enigmatic sayings of the
parables.
The
noun is the disciples; of these, there are good and faithful ones, there are
bad and unfaithful ones, and there are diligent and lazy ones... Of the disciples, there are those who are
barren and others who are of varying fruitfulness.
I
have not seen a false man before; I have seen dead men and living men, big and
small men, male and female men, etc. Of the living men, there are healthy
robust ones and there are sickly ones...fruitful ones and barren ones and all in between. Of the healthy ones, there are among them mentally retarded, some
crippled and some handicapped. They are all men, none of them false men.
Even
false brethren are brethren; they are brethren who are misguided and teach
falsehood and errors.
Like
the RBs, I USED TO say, "If a man does not persevere in a life of faith
and holiness, he can't possibly be a child of God to start with." Grace
has taught me to see things from a different perspective.
A
distinction between eternal salvation and temporal salvation has helped me not
a little in rightly dividing the word of truth.
Sorry
for my ramblings.
Adam
Wells
I
don't disagree that there are weaker vs stronger brothers, i.e. disciples,
however, that is not presented here in John 6. What we see are those who made a
profession and did not continue, thus proving themselves to be insincere
believers. "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye
continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed." John 8:31
I
do not follow the PB's in their strange idea of the unconverted elect being
everywhere. (Though I do understand from Romans that there can be some.) Jesus
consistently taught that his sheep hear and obey. I have never been an RB or PB
and wish to avoid both ditches.
Perhaps
you could view the notes here:
http://www.letgodbetrue.com/pdf/john-six.pdf and
http://www.letgodbetrue.com/pdf/john-eight.pdf
Sing
F Lau
Thanks
for your thoughts.
You
said, "I do not follow the PB's in their strange idea of the unconverted elect
being everywhere. (Though I do understand from Romans that there can be
some.)"
When
you say, "though I do understand from Romans that there can be some",
are you just conceding the POSSIBILITY that there may be such, or are you
acknowledging that the WERE indeed such? Just asking to make sure that I
understand you properly. If the latter, then it is not so strange after all,
isn't it? Can't keep the cake and eat it too! 😉
Also,
I need to inquire about your idea of conversion. Some sincere folks' understanding of conversion is synonymous with regeneration, i.e. conversion
from spiritual deadness to grace and salvation. I believe you are not confusing
the two. Before the last trump, there shall indeed be no unregenerated elect
being anywhere on earth - that I wholly agree. I hope we can agree on that
point. However, consistency necessarily requires you to affirm, "Before
the last trump, there shall indeed be no unCONVERTED elect being anywhere on
earth."
So,
I take it that by conversion, you mean by the conversion as in "faith
cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:9-15.
Since
you do not follow the PB's (you chose to attribute that teaching to them; I
attribute the teaching to the Scriptures) idea of the unconverted elect being
anywhere, the simple implication is that you do follow after the common and
popular idea that every elect, without exception, will be converted through the
preaching and hearing of, and the believing in, the word of God during their
lifetime here on earth, and shall surely ABIDE as disciples to the end of their
life; none shall turn away.
Is that implication drawn fairly? If not, what is a fair implication?
Adam
Wells
I
think we are on the same page concerning conversion, it is not a once-and-done
event and IS NOT synonymous with regeneration. I do not hold the view
"that every elect, without exception, will be converted through the
preaching and hearing of, and the believing in, the word of God during their
lifetime here on earth." That the scripture bears this out is well
understood however, scripture is written to the elect with a bent towards
discipleship, I have no way to think that I or anyone else is elect unless
I/they both believe in and obey the Lord Jesus.
Sing
F Lau
Adam
@ "I don't disagree that there are weaker vs stronger brothers, i.e.
disciples, however, that is not presented here in John 6. What we see are those
who made a profession and did not continue, thus proving themselves to be
insincere believers. "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him,
If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed." John 8:31
========
The
Scriptures state that many of His disciples went back because of the hard
sayings of the Lord. You chose to conclude that since they turned back and did
not abide, they were no disciples at all - if I understand you correctly.
John
6
60
Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard
saying; who can hear it?
61
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto
them, Doth this offend you?
66
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Those
who proved to be insincere believers, are they believers or are they not? The
"believers" is a noun, that's what they are; "insincere" is
an adjective, providing more information about the noun, i.e. they are
insincere. Insincere men don't cease to be men, do they; they are men marked by a
certain attribute, insincerity. The lazy and wicked servant is a servant
nonetheless but a lazy and wicked servant who deserves severe stripes.
The
disciples indeed are the disciples that are represented by the good ground;
those who are not disciples indeed are like those represented by the three
other types of ground, Mt 13. (All four types of ground are descriptions of disciples!!!) The branches that abide are disciples indeed;
they that don't are no less vine branches, such shall suffer the temporal
judgment. Fruitless vine branches are a harsh reality, John 15. Fruitless
grounds are also a harsh reality. It is easy to just dismiss the fruitless vine
branches as thornbushes (or the fruitless ground as granite!) Such are in fact accusing the Lord of expecting grapes
from thornbushes.
The warning of John 8:31 presupposes the real danger of those who have believed in Jesus the Messiah not continuing in His word. The Lord was not dealing with hypothetical; the danger of the believers not continuing in Christ's word is real. The Lord didn't waste His words dealing with fictional danger.
Sing
F Lau
Thanks
for the references. When I have an opportunity, I will take a look.
Adam
Wells
Did
you get a chance to view the references? It is written more clearly than I am
able to do at this point.
Sing
F Lau
Maybe
I fail to understand your initial statement: "I do not follow the PB's in
their strange idea of the unconverted elect being everywhere."
May
I ask, when you said you do not follow PB's in their strange idea of the unconverted elect being everywhere:
-
by "do not follow" do you mean you don't understand or you don't
agree with that idea?
-
have you actually met a PB who believes that unconverted elect being
EVERYWHERE?
Perhaps
you have set up a straw man, or at least misrepresented their position. In any
case, I have not heard of a PB who entertains the strange idea that the
unconverted elect being EVERYWHERE. When we can't represent others correctly,
we have not earned the right to dispute them.
I
have heard of PBs who believe that there are God's children, i.e. the elect
that are regenerated, who remain UN-reached or IN-capable of being reached, by
the gospel ministry and therefore remain UN-converted in this life.
(This is affirmed by the Particular Baptists in 1689.10.3... "...
On
the one hand, you said: "I do not follow the PB's in their strange idea of the unconverted elect being everywhere."
When
pointed out the necessary implication of your statement, you said:
"I
do not hold the view "that every elect, without exception, will be
converted through the preaching and hearing of, and the believing in, the word
of God during their lifetime here on earth."
Can I then conclude then that you do believe that there are unconverted elect being SOMEWHERE, since you admitted: "that the scripture bears this out is well understood."
Adam
Wells
I
apologise if my statement is a bit vague or unclear. I am certainly not trying
to misrepresent anyone. Would I be correct to say that you would liken these
John 6 "disciples" which turned back, to those who choose the wide
and broad way described in Matt 7:13? And that the destruction spoken of in
verse 13 is only temporal in nature? If so, this is what I meant by elect being
everywhere. I certainly agree with you that we should not be as those who
turned aside, however, I differ in that I don't believe that the scripture is
here pointing out elect people who couldn't continue; thus there are not two
types of disciples, only one. Disciples of Christ love and obey him.
Sing
F Lau
I'm
still trying to understand what you are saying.
Maybe
my little mind is confused by the way you use "elect" and
"disciples".
What's
the connection between "unconverted elect everywhere" and the
disciples?
You
said, "However I differ in that I don't believe that the scripture is
here pointing out elect people who couldn't continue; thus there are not two
types of disciples, only one."
You
have "elect people" and the "disciples" together in the
statement above. How are they related?
You
don't believe that the scripture (I assume you are referring to John 6:44-69)
is here pointing out elect people who couldn't continue.
So
what do you believe that the scripture is pointing out?
-
the scripture is pointing out that the elect are those who do continue? (the
corollary, those who don't continue are not elect)?
-
the scripture is pointing out that Christ's disciples who turned back were not
elect people?
-
Let me hear from the stallion's mouth?
Adam
Wells
What
I am saying is that though the word here used is "disciples," the
John 6 hearers were not genuine and thus not really disciples. The passage
bears that out and makes it clear to us. I used the word "elect" to
try to make my meaning clear which seemed to only muddy the waters. Please
disregard it if it isn't clear to you. What I did want to make clear is that
Jesus' hard sayings or hard preaching sifted out those who were genuine vs
those who were not.
As
he spake these words, many believed on him. Then said Jesus to those Jews which
believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
John
8:30-31
Belief
or mental consent is not enough, hence the statement in John 8.
Sing
F Lau
Adam,
permit me to ask one last question. Your answer will help me.
Those
disciples that turned back from following Christ, whom you described as not
genuine, do you consider them as unconverted elect or converted elect, or not
elect at all?
Thanks.
Adam
Wells
I've
no reason to believe that these John 6 hearers are elect.
Sing
F Lau
At
last, I understood you. I should have asked that question at the beginning.
Thanks.
Sing
F Lau
Adam
@ "However, scripture is written to the elect with a bent towards
discipleship, I have no way to think that I or anyone else is elect unless
I/they both believe in and obey the Lord Jesus."
=============
That's
so true. The Scriptures are obviously intended for the sentient elect who are
capable of being called out as disciples. Pictures are for those who have
sight!
This
is NOT THE SAME as saying all the elect without exception have access to the
Scriptures or the ministry of the word in their lifetime here on earth and are
all converted. There are God's children (regenerated elect) who remain UN-converted in their lifetime;
the lifetime of some is brief!
"I
have no way to think that I or anyone else is elect unless I/they both believe
in and obey the Lord Jesus." Someone said, just because you don't see that
dazzling flower in the harsh desert does not mean that that unknown flower does
not exist! God's children exist OUTSIDE of the little world of our limited
experience.
I'm
in hearty agreement that no man has any ground or basis to claim that he is a
child of God UNLESS he believes in the gospel of Jesus Christ and obeys him.
The statement presupposes that the gospel of Jesus Christ has been presented
unto him. Those who have never had the gospel preached to them have often been injuriously and
wrongly labelled as unbelievers.
Say
hello to Fawn and the four children. Your family is remembered by the church
here.
