June
22, 2012
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The gospel of free grace declares Eternal Salvation, WITHOUT any human activity.
Romans
8
29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to
the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called,
them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
These
two verses of the Holy Scriptures are probably the most tortured and abused
passages of the Bible. Even the Calvinistic folks messed it up big time!
A
few obvious facts about the passage:
1.
The object acted upon by the divine activities are co-extensive throughout, an
EXACTLY SAME number and people are involved in each activity of God, not one
more and not one less, that is, every action applies to EVERY elect, withOUT exception. That's pretty obvious... "whom he did... he also... whom he
did... he also..."
2.
The divine activities here - foreknowledge, predestination, calling,
justification and glorification - are all the activities of God. All these
activities are by the free and sovereign grace of God, i.e. not conditioned
upon anything in, by or of the objects. Those acted upon in these divine
activities are completely passive, absolutely incapable of helping or even
cooperating. In fact, they, by nature, were actively in ENMITY and REBELLION against
God.
3.
Those acted upon in these divine activities are EQUALLY ACTED upon - they are
ALL EQUALLY foreknown, predestinated, called, justified, and glorified - no one
more, and no one less. Every free grace divine action applies to ABSOLUTELY
EVERY ELECT, to absolutely equal and same extent. No exception. The activities
here deal with and secure ETERNAL salvation for the elect.
4.
The divine activities stated here are all that is necessary for the ETERNAL
salvation of every elect, without exception. There is no room to place other
activities into the five-link chain. The five-link chain is complete and DOES
NOT NEED other activities of God; it DOES NOT PERMIT any activities of man.
Why
is there no mention of regeneration, adoption, sanctification, etc., etc.?
Why
isn't there any mention of the gospel preaching, faith and repentance?
Why? Do you know? If
you don't, why not ask?
5.
This passage says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, ZILCH about all those needful activities
that involve human instrumentality (means) and activities that are needful for
the TEMPORAL salvation of God's children already made fit for eternal glory. If
you imagine that any such activities are necessary for eternal salvation, then
you have prostituted the pure gospel of grace, deny true monergism, and end up
with a synergistic view of salvation - which is so common even among many
Calvinists!
When
this passage is properly understood, then eternal salvation by God's free grace
is adequately appreciated.
I
know you may have some objections. I'm ready for them. If you can stick to the
subject, comment. If not, don't!
=========
50 comments
Sing
F Lau
There
is the ETERNAL salvation which God in Jesus Christ has completely and perfectly
worked out for His people, and applies to each elect by His Spirit, perfectly
fitting each for eternal glory... no human instrumentality is involved the
eternal salvation. God alone purposed it, Christ alone accomplished it, and the
Spirit alone applies it.
-
This is the true context/sphere of 'divine sovereignty' in salvation.
There
is the TEMPORAL salvation which God's children (those already bestowed with
eternal salvation by God's free grace) have to work out for themselves with
fear and trembling for their well-being and usefulness in this present life.
The
gospel ministry, administered through human instrumentality, is the divinely
ordained means for this specific purpose of saints working out their own
salvation:
"12
teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live
soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that
blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus
Christ;
14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify
unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." Titus 2.
- This
is the true context/sphere of 'human responsibility' in salvation. God's
children are responsible to work out their own salvation through obedience to
the Father's will.
The measure to which men cannot distinguish eternal salvation from temporal salvation is the same measure to which they are messed up in their understanding of salvation by grace alone! They give lip service to salvation by grace alone but in reality, are all work-based salvation to different degrees... EVEN the Calvinists!
Sing
F Lau
1.
The object acted upon by the divine activities are co-extensive throughout, an
EXACTLY SAME number and SAME people are involved in each activity of God, not one
more and not one less, that is, every action applies to EVERY elect, with an exception.
================
Necessary
implications:
1.
The call is the effectual call because ONLY IN EFFECTUAL CALL is every elect
called. This is God calling an elect out of his native state of sin and death
to that of grace and eternal salvation.
There
is absolutely no gospel call here because there are God's children (regenerated
elect) that are incapable of being called by the gospel, either because of
inability or not being reached by the gospel call.
Gospel
call has to do with the temporal salvation of God's children. And there are God's
children who are not called by the gospel.
However, because the Calvinists are ignorant of the distinction between ETERNAL
salvation and TEMPORAL salvation, they insist that the gospel call is necessary for
one's eternal salvation!
2.
The justification here is the vital justification by God's free grace because
this aspect of justification is true of every elect. This is God's act of
justifying the condemned by applying the righteousness of Christ to him
personally and forgiving him of his sins... when he is utterly incapable of
believing.
There
is no justification by man's act of believing here because there are God's
children who are INCAPABLE of believing... either because of their inability or
not called by the gospel.
However, because the Calvinists are ignorant of the distinct aspects of justification, they confuse the VITAL justification by the free grace of God as the EXPERIENTIAL justification by faith in Christ.
Sing
F Lau
Romans
8:29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to
the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called,
them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
===============
Question: why is nothing said about regeneration, sanctification, gospel preaching, hearing, faith and repentance, etc, etc... the MANY things that the Calvinists and Arminians alike insist must be added to the five-link chain?
Nick
Migliacci
Here's
what I came up with on this passage.
http://www.migliacci.com/articles/Rom.8.29-30.swf
Dellis
Layne Worsham Sr.
Sing
F Lau Question: why is nothing said about regeneration, sanctification, gospel
preaching, hearing, faith and repentance, etc, etc... the MANY things that the
Calvinists and Arminians alike insist must be added to the five-link chain? All
are included but still accomplished by God. Regeneration makes it possible for
the rest to happen, but still, we are fitted and framed together. The term "we
must do these things" does not exist when it comes to eternal salvation,
but temporal salvation is something I've never heard of except in the Arminian
camp where Hebrews 6:4-6 clearly puts a reinstatement of temporal salvation
to be non-existent meaning that if you lose it it is impossible to get it back if your temporal salvation refers to being able to lose one's salvation.
I also wasn't aware that the Arminian had a five-link chain. explain?
Sing
F Lau
Dellis
Layne Worsham Sr., temporal salvation is the salvation that those whom God has
freely bestowed eternal salvation have to work out for themselves with fear and trembling
through their obedience to the Father's will.
Temporal
salvation has to do with the well-being of God's children while here on earth.
Eternal salvation has to do with our being as God's children and our fitness
and place in heaven with God.
Here
is an example of temporal salvation that God's children must labour for
themselves...
1Ti
4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in
doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
The salvation spoken of here has nothing to do with the eternal salvation that Christ ALONE has secured, and freely applied to each elect, perfectly fitting them for eternal glory.
Dellis
Layne Worsham Sr.
Sing
F Lau Like John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light
of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have
the light of life.
Sing
F Lau
Yes,
he that follows Christ does so because ETERNAL SALVATION has been freely and
sovereignly bestowed upon him... and following Christ will save him from
darkness... following Christ a child of God shall have the light of life... his
following Christ will secure him temporal salvation... ensures his well being
as God's child!
Any salvation that requires the activities of man has to do with TEMPORAL SALVATION.
Dellis
Layne Worsham Sr.
But
I'm not supposed to believe that am I? I am a Calvinist 🙂
Nick Migliacci
I
don’t think we can ever presume upon God and state that we have perfect
knowledge about our salvation such that we know infallibly that we have been
given this “eternal salvation,” as Sing calls it. Paul was humble enough to
recognize that if he didn’t persevere, he would prove himself to be
“disqualified,” which means lost. (The same word he uses in 1 Cor. 9:27 he uses
in 2 Cor. 13:5). And again in Romans 11:21, he puts the fear of God in us lest
we become so “sure of ourselves.” “He who endures to the end shall be saved.”
That’s the salvation that takes you to heaven. What does Sing base his
knowledge on that he has been given “eternal salvation?” That he prayed the
sinner’s prayer? Surely not!
Therefore,
there is no distinction between a so-called “eternal salvation” and a “temporal
salvation.” The salvation we are commanded to “work out with fear and
trembling” is the same salvation that will get us to heaven (if we do indeed
work it out). Sanctification is part and parcel of being saved. No holiness, no
heaven (Heb. 12:14). Sanctification is a prerequisite to going to heaven. If a
person does not “keep themselves in the love of God” (Jude 1:21), then they
would prove that God never gave them salvation—call it eternal or temporal if
you want; there’s only one salvation.
I’m a Calvinist and I approve this message. 🙂
Dellis
Layne Worsham Sr.
Nick@
I know where you are coming from but Sing F Lau does make sense, though what he
teaches is true, the wording is different. EG. it is not our relationship
that makes us Christians, it is our fellowship. However, Sing used the words
sonship and discipleship in the same respect. Sanctification has more to do
with God working in you, both to will and to do of His good pleasure.
Chastening is the way God gets us to the point of sanctification while here on
earth, but if you are regenerate then God has already eternally sanctified you.
BTW, Calvinists believe OSAS.
Hebrews
2:11
For
both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which
cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Hebrews
10:10
By
the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus
Christ once for all.
Hebrews
10:14
For
by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
The
above scripture pertains to God's eternal purpose for us. 1 Corinthians 6:11
And
such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are
justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. Paul
never worried about the destiny of his soul, but he was concerned that his
lifestyle in which others in the world saw him was a concern eg. He didn't want
to appear to be a hypocrite by living a life that didn't reflect the hope within
him. It was for that, that he said to work out with fear and trembling. He for
sure knew that God had set him apart (sanctified) for the purpose of being
an apostle to the Gentiles.
Sing
F Lau
Nick
Migliacci, you are indeed a Calvinist, a typical synergist in the doctrine of
salvation.
You
forgot what Paul said here:
38
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor
principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us
from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
That's
eternal salvation secure for His people... nothing can undo it... not even
Satan himself.
Paul
is realistic about the real possibility of himself making a shipwreck of his
faith... that's concerning his temporal salvation, his well-being as God's
child.
Nick Migliacci
Yes,
I believe the Gospel is “foolishness” to the unbeliever (1 Cor. 1:18; 2:14) and
the “aroma of death” to him (2 Cor. 2:16). But that presuppose that he has
heard it, does it not? He hears it, it’s foolish to him, and then at the
appointed time, God regenerates him (if he’s elected) and it is no longer
foolishness to him.
I can see where our views part ways. It’s this idea of “temporal salvation” versus “eternal salvation.” You mentioned Romans 8:38-39 and how absolutely nothing is able to separate us [you understand that to be those who have been granted eternal salvation] from the love of God. But I would point out that that promise is true only for those who are “in Christ.” So what I stated earlier was that none of us knows infallibly that we are in Christ, until we are on our deathbed and can say like Paul that we have fought the good fight. But as long as we’ve got lots of years ahead of us, there is still that possibility that we might make a shipwreck of our faith, and prove that God never did, after all, grant us [eternal] salvation. We deceived ourselves into thinking that He did. We would be like that soil which at first received the Word with gladness but later fell away because of tough times. It’s true that IF God grants [eternal] salvation, it can never be taken away. That is a blessed promise that we can cling to if we can see evidence of sanctification in our life. But it’s equally true that there are many religious people who have deceived themselves in thinking they have that [eternal] salvation when in reality they were lost along (Mt. 7:23). They don’t lose any salvation; they simply never had one.
Sing
F Lau
Nick
Migliacci, then I conclude that your eternal salvation finally depends on your
perseverance to the end! I hope you make it. See, somehow human works must
always sneak in to play a role in a man's eternal salvation!
I'm
sorry you don't think Christ's work has made eternal salvation certain and
assured enough for you, that you need to add a CONDITION to eternal salvation.
I just hope you meet it!
Nick Migliacci
Christ's
work does guarantee me heaven, IF it was for me He died! How do I know that? By
looking at God's work of sanctifying me, because God sanctifies all whom He
saves. So far, I have every reason to believe I will make it. I press on toward
the goal.... I am what I am by the grace of God.
What
proof do you have that you have eternal salvation? Because you prayed a
sinner's prayer?
Nick Migliacci
(I'm
glad we're able to finally see where our theologies differ.) I'm sure you are
too. 🙂
Sing
F Lau
Yes,
finally.
Yours
is grace PLUS conditions...
Mine
is grace ALONE.
Yours:
no hope for such as Lot, Saul, Solomon... since they did not persevere to the
end, they were never saved by God.
Mine:
they are as eternally saved as every elect, even though they messed up big time their
well-being on earth.
See the difference. I hope you meet the conditions you have set for yourself.
Nick Migliacci
But
how can you prove that Lot, Saul, Solomon, or anyone else has been
"eternally saved", if not by their life (or what the Scriptures say
about them, such as putting them in Hebrews 11, etc.)?
Also,
the way people were saved before the Incarnation is the same way people are
saved today: believing in Christ. Those in the Old Testament looked forward to
Christ, today, we look back. Granted, we have more revelation than they did,
but still, everyone is saved by looking to Christ. Genesis 3:15 is the "proto-good
news". Galatians 3:8 - "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would
justify the Gentiles by faith, PREACHED THE GOSPEL TO ABRAHAM beforehand,
saying, 'In you all the nations shall be blessed.'" So anybody who didn't
believe in Christ went to hell.
You still haven't answered whether it's possible for a regenerate person to go to hell, in plain, simple language: yes or no. I have been clear with you, why won't you extend the same courtesy? Don't expect your Scriptures to have the same impact on me as they do you, because I don't come with the same presuppositions as you do. So just answer yes or no: Can a regenerate person remain an atheist all their life and go to hell?
Dellis
Layne Worsham Sr.
Can
a regenerate person remain an atheist all their life and go to hell? That's a
kind of crazy question since being regenerated automatically makes you a
spiritual being and makes you cease to be a natural man.
I have no presuppositions since all I know is from what God's word has taught me, well with the help of the comforter God gave me. If you think about it, those who spoke to God in the OT still had faith though they heard the audible voice of God, saw angels and prophesied according to visions. In the New Testament times, faith is in things not seen. So how is it that we are saved by the same faith as our father Abraham? As far as us hearing the gospel, think of it as one man hearing without understanding and the other hearing with it. Jesus said, "all that the Father giveth me shall come to me" so that makes your question about a regenerate atheist impossible. That should pretty much sum up the rest of the questions you posed. I feel I have been clear enough for a seemingly intelligent man like yourself to understand. If not, I ask, Are you a brother in Christ?
Sing
F Lau
Nick
Migliacci @ Also, the way people were saved before the Incarnation is the same
way people are saved today: believing on Christ.
You
are COMPLETELY WRONG on one point: Yes, the way people were SAVED by God is the
same way people are saved today... there is only one way of salvation... and it
is not by believing in Jesus Christ.
You
most certainly believe in salvation by works... because believing in Jesus
Christ is a work that God expects His children to work.
Here
is the proof: John 6
28
¶ Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of
God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye
believe on him whom he hath sent.
IT
IS by God effectually calling them out of their native state of sin and death
to that of grace and salvation based on the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
Believing
is an EVIDENCE that a man has been SAVED by God, by His free grace. Believing
DOES NOT SAVE anyone. Believing evidences the ETERNAL SALVATION already freely
bestowed. ONLY the SAVED by God can ever believe.
If eternal salvation is by believing in Jesus Christ, then MANY elect will go to the lake of fire, since many are either INCAPABLE of believing, or have no opportunity to believe because the gospel call to believe did not get to them.
Sing
F Lau
Nick
Migliacci @ "You still haven't answered whether it's possible for a
regenerate person to go to hell, in plain, simple language: yes or no."
I
will answer your WEIRD Q with a question: Can a child of God go to the lake of
fire? Am I asking the same thing? If I am, then the answer is NO NO NO.
Regeneration guarantees ETERNAL GLORY - without anything extra or condition on
man's part. That's grace, pure unadulterated and uncontaminated grace.
But
let me entertain your question: Is it possible for a regenerate person to go to
hell, in plain, simple language: yes or no.
Jesus
warns his disciples (apostles):
28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath
committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it
is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy
whole body should be cast into hell.
30
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is
profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy
whole body should be cast into hell.
Is
the warning of the Lord to the APOSTLES a vain warning? Isn't the warning that
it is a REAL danger to the disciples...
And Nick, are hell and the late of fire the same in your understanding?
Sing
F Lau
Nick
Migliacci @ Therefore, there is no distinction between a so-called “eternal
salvation” and a “temporal salvation.” The salvation we are commanded to “work
out with fear and trembling” is the same salvation that will get us to heaven
(if we do indeed work it out).
============
In
this, you are most deluded and confused. You have MIXED eternal salvation by
Christ's work. You have just DENIED the completeness and the perfection of
Christ's work. You require Christ's work to be completed by yours! And you still
blah blah blah salvation by grace ALONE. No, you should be honest and say, 'salvation is by grace PLUS my work.'
Christ's
work ALONE secured your eternal salvation. It is based upon the finished work
of Christ that God bestowed salvation to a dead condemned sinner.
Your
work of obeying God will save you from 'hell' on earth, and bring you temporal
blessings - blessings that pertain to/in this life.
Nick Migliacci
I
still do not know what you believe. I'm getting closer, but it's like pulling
teeth out of you. Why beat around the bush? Are you saying a regenerate person
can remain an atheist all their life and still go to heaven? Do you believe
that God will ENSURE that the regenerate all believe the Gospel at some point?
Nick Migliacci
Are
you separating regeneration from sanctification, saying that it's possible to
be regenerated but not sanctified?
Sing
F Lau
Nick
Migliacci @ Can a regenerate person remain an atheist all their life and go to
hell?
=======
Have
you read this:
Heb
8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after
those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them
in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people.
Every
regenerate elect KNOWS and WORSHIP God... even though he has never heard of the
gospel of Jesus Christ. Look at Cornelius, the Ethiopian eunuch, Lydia... all
those devout Jews CONVERTED on the day of Pentecost.
The
gospel informs and instructs him about his eternal salvation by God's free and
sovereign grace in Jesus Christ.
Hearing
and believing the gospel SAVES and sets them free from superstition and lies
and errors... teaches them to live soberly, godly and righteously... thus
saving themselves from ungodliness and worldly lusts in THIS PRESENT LIFE. That's
temporal salvation - i.e. salvation that pertains to THIS PRESENT LIFE.
ETERNAL
SALVATION by Christ's work of redemption has ETERNITY in view... saves from
eternal condemnation, even from the Lake of fire.
Sing
F Lau
Nick
Migliacci, just
remember this:
Rightly
dividing the word of truth is the ESSENCE of sound theology.
The biblical distinction between ETERNAL salvation by free grace alone, and TEMPORAL
salvation through the obedience of God's children IS THE ESSENCE of sound
theology.
Failure
to make this biblical distinction will leave in a cesspool of confusion and
contradictions and inconsistencies. Been there for 20 years... and it is a joy
and delight to be out of it for 10 years now.
May
our Lord set you free to see the glorious truth! Amen.
Sing
F Lau
Nick
Migliacci @ I still do not know what you believe. I'm getting closer, but it's
like pulling teeth out of you. Why beat around the bush? Are you saying a
regenerate person can remain an atheist all their life and still go to heaven?
Do you believe that God will ENSURE that the regenerate all believe the Gospel
at some point?
==============
Q1
- I don't ever beat around the bush. I am a slash-and-burn type of man
<LOL>. Rinse your eyes with some eye salve to see better! <LOL>
Q2
- answered already. Read it.
Q3 - answered too, but you didn't read. Shame!
PJ
Walters
"And
his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we
perish." Matthew 8:25
-----------------
Is
the salvation under consideration in the context of this verse eternal or
temporal?
Is
the perishing under consideration herein eternal or temporal?
Take heed unto the doctrine, and save thyself and them that hear thee!
Sing
F Lau
Nick
Migliacci @ Are you separating regeneration from sanctification, saying that
it's possible to be regenerated but not sanctified?
========
Which
sanctification are you talking about - definitive sanctification or practical
sanctification?
At
regeneration, an elect is definitively set apart from sin and death to that of
grace and salvation. This sanctification is once for all, non-repeatable, needs
no improvement. Once set apart from sin and death to grace and eternal
salvation, FOREVER set apart to grace and salvation. This definitive
sanctification is WITHOUT human means - God does it ALL by Himself.
Understand?
Heb
10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Calvinists
like you have the audacity to ADD to this finished work by Christ... that
without practical sanctification a man goes to hell! How much practical
sanctification is needed to qualify for eternal glory - can you tell us? And
just how does a man know he meets the requirement?
I
know what's in your mind - it is practical sanctification that you are
concerned with.
Practical sanctification is accomplished through the means of the gospel ministry in the context of the NT local church. Some children of God enjoy this means to a greater degree, others less, and still others NONE. Whatever amount they enjoy, they are all God's children, definitively sanctified, destined for eternal glory!!!
PJ
Walters
What
of the brother's question concerning an atheist?
Sing
F Lau
Pj
Walters, here it is, at the end of the paragraph.
======
"You
still haven't answered whether it's possible for a regenerate person to go to
hell, in plain, simple language: yes or no. I have been clear with you, why
won't you extend the same courtesy? Don't expect your Scriptures to have the
same impact on me as they do you, because I don't come with the same
presuppositions as you do. So just answer yes or no: Can a regenerate person
remain an atheist all their life and go to hell?"
----------------
I
wonder what provoked him to ask such a WEIRD question?
Maybe Nick Migliacci might like to tell us!
PJ
Walters
I'm
still studying about hell and the separate state of the soul, so perhaps he may
be able to tell us more!
Sing
F Lau
No,
Nick is far from that issue... 'hell' is just 'hell' to him - the eternal state.
Nick Migliacci
Sing,
why do you call my question weird? You yourself said some regenerate people are
never (temporarily) sanctified. Thus, they can be a (temporal) atheist, and still
be regenerate and go to heaven. By making this man-made disconnection between
regeneration and necessary (temporal) sanctification, you have people going to
heaven who lived like the devil. Do I understand your view right? I certainly
don't want to misrepresent you.
Nick Migliacci
My
view, as you probably already know, is that God not only ensures the
regeneration of His elect, but He also ensures their sanctification (which you
call "temporal sanctification"). And in that way, He ensures they
will go to heaven, because no holiness, no heaven. How can a sinner be holy?
Only by the working of God in his life.
You
may say I believe in a works-based salvation, but that is not accurate; I
believe in a salvation based on God's work, and one of His works is His
sanctifying work. Yes, I believe sanctification is synergistic (although my
work depends on the monergistic initiative of God), but what makes this so
different from the Arminian is this: I believe regeneration is wholly
monergistic, whereas the Arminian believes in prevenient grace, making the dead
man able to choose God. I do not believe dead men can choose God. But once a
person has been given life, by all means, they are then made able to cooperate
with the Spirit in sanctification. There is a difference between a dead man's
abilities and a living person's abilities.
Sing
F Lau
Nick
Migliacci, I call your question weird because it is like asking, "Do God's
children end up in the lake of fire?"
It
is like asking, "Do my children have immortal souls? Do they need to live
well in order to have immortal souls?"
Do
God's children need to meet some condition in order to get into heaven?
Do
you ever ask a question like that?
Sing
F Lau
Nick
Migliacci @ You yourself said some regenerate people are never (temporarily)
sanctified. Thus, they can be a (temporal) atheist, and still be regenerate and
go to heaven. By making this man-made disconnection between regeneration and
necessary (temporal) sanctification, you have people going to heaven who lived
like the devil.
=========
In
discussion, you must guard yourself against putting your words into my mouth.
The
idea that a regenerate, a child of God, can be an atheist is entirely your straw
man... and you SHOULD BE ASHAMED of yourself for saying that though I have
burned your straw man many times over.
A
child of God believes God and fears and reverence Him, even though he may not
have any knowledge of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ yet. But you will
call a man who has not heard of the gospel an atheist. Was Cornelius an atheist
before Apostle brought to gospel to him?
A regenerate has eternal life and is perfectly fitted for eternal glory... nothing more is needed.
Sing
F Lau
Nick
Migliacci @ "By making this man-made disconnection between regeneration
and necessary (temporal) sanctification, you have people going to heaven who
lived like the devil."
===========
"You
have people going to heaven who lived like hell' is another cheap straw man -
that's your imagination. I didn't say anything like that.
Because
you CANNOT accept the idea that there are God's children who do not hear the
gospel, you conclude that there are God's children who live like the devil and
go to heaven - that's too puerile to even requires a rebuttal! The straw
man does not warrant wasting a stick of precious matches.
It
is a biblical fact that there are God's children who have no ABILITY to hear
and believe the gospel, and also those who have no OPPORTUNITY to hear and believe
the gospel.
The
Scripture itself makes the NEEDFUL distinction, but you want to join them
together and end up with all sorts of contradiction - i.e. salvation by grace
PLUS works.
You
join the CAUSE and the effects together.
A man like you rave and rant and foam the whole day long that 'salvation is by grace alone' from one side of your mouth, and then screams from the other side that "salvation by grace is complemented/completed by works."
Nick Migliacci
I've
created a Forum where you can clearly explain your position, here:
http://www.migliacci.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=109
What
Saith The Scriptures: View Forum - "Eternal Salvation" &
"Temporal Salvation"
MIGLIACCI.COM
Sing
F Lau
There
are many useful articles on the subject. Go and read them and understand them
before you start discussing them.
In
a nutshell:
The
saving activities of God secured ETERNAL salvation for His people.
The
responding activities of God's children (having been bestowed eternal salvation
by God's free grace) secured temporal salvation for this temporal life on
earth.
It
is that simple and easy.
Heard
this saying before? Think about it.
"The
most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has
not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made
clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows
already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him." - Leo
Tolstoy –
Thanks
for the conversation... I'm thoroughly acquainted with your position... was
there for 20 years.
Dellis
Layne Worsham Sr.
It
makes sense that you can't teach anything to anyone who already knows it all.
Nick Migliacci
I
like that quote by Tolstoy.
Why
do you suppose God has not secured temporal salvation for all for whom He
secures eternal salvation? Doesn't God care about both equally?
Sing
F Lau
Nick
Migliacci @ "Why do you suppose God has not secured temporal salvation for
all for whom He secures eternal salvation? Doesn't God care about both equally?
==========
HARD
Scriptural FACTS!
HARD
Scriptural FACTS!
I
don't suppose anything.
It
is you who supposes a whole lot of things.
Nick,
supposing God cared about both EQUALLY, then every elect would be equally saved
with eternal salvation, and ALSO equally saved with temporal salvation. The
former is true, the latter is an obvious fable!
It
is true that every elect is equally saved with eternal salvation, because
their salvation is BASED upon the same basis (Christ's righteousness), the
same manner (God's free grace) and the same means (regeneration by the Holy
Spirit). This is the sole work of the Triune God alone.
It is just a PLAIN LIE that says temporal salvation is equally true for every child
of God for the simple reason that temporal salvation is CONDITIONED upon many
human factors... which directly affect the degree to which temporal salvation
is attained and experienced by a child of God.
If
God divinely ENSURES temporal salvation to each of His children, then EVERY ONE
of them will enjoy the same degree of temporal salvation, otherwise God's work
of ensuring it is just a SHAM and a FICTION!
If God ENSURES temporal salvation, then everyone will know AS LITTLE or as MUCH of the gospel of free grace as you do!!! [no typing mistake!].
Nick
Migliacci
You
assume that, if God ensures temporal salvation, that it's God's will that
everyone enjoys it to the same degree. I don't believe that. I believe it's
God's will that some enjoy sanctification (temporal salvation) more than
others, and others enjoy it less. Although, I don't use the word
"enjoy." I would say it's God's will that some are more sanctified
than others, and others are less sanctified than others.
Nick Migliacci
But
one thing is sure (as far as what I believe): I believe God does ensure SOME
level of sanctification to all the elect. How much sanctification is ultimately
up to Him, but there WILL be a difference (2 Cor. 5:17) between the regenerate
and the unregenerate.
Sing
F Lau
Nick
Migliacci, @ "I would say it's God's will that some are more sanctified
than others, and others are less sanctified than others."
=========
Then
you have to prove that such is God's will indeed, otherwise it is your fable.
But
the Scriptures is PLAIN AS THE NOON DAY SUN that the level of PRACTICAL
sanctification is dependent and determined by the effort of God's children.
"Work
out your own salvation..."
"Feed...
feed... feed..."
The
definitive sanctification for each elect is as complete and perfect as ENSURED
BY GOD. Even God's elect who died in infancy are as perfectly and completely
sanctified definitively. Even those who have no opportunity to hear, God
ensured that they are as perfectly and completely sanctified definitively.
But
in terms of practical salvation, such have NONE, ZILCH. So, according to your
fiction, God FAIL MISERABLY in His work of ensuring some temporal salvation in such. Or
maybe in such, God ensured that they die without practical sanctification.
I
would take that your idea is an evil fiction that impugns upon God's character
than that God should fail in His work of ensuring a different measure of temporal
salvation to His children.
If
He does ensure temporal salvation at all, it would be right to believe that God
ensures each child to be equally alike like men such as John Gill or Spurgeon,
or Apostle Paul?
Your
fiction comes toooooo pathetically far short of God's power and glory! You
might as well say it is God who ensures that some have NO practical sanctification.
It is like saying a wicked father ensures that some of his children receive no food, others have little and others have a bit more.
Nick
Migliacci
You
said, "You might as well say it is God ensures that some have NO practical
sanctification. ... It is like saying a wicked father ensures that some of his
children receive no food..."
That
is where we draw the line. Recall the Parable of the Four Soils. Those who
produced ZERO fruit were not saved at all. God ensures that His children bear
SOME fruit, some 30-fold, some 60-fold, and others (like John Gill, et. al.)
100-fold.
It's
true that we, humans, do have to work out our salvation, but it's God who works
in us to do and to will of His good pleasure. So at the end of the day, God is
sovereign over how much fruit a person bears. To leave God out of the equation
is to deny His sovereignty over man's (temporal) sanctification.
Sing
F Lau
Thanks
Nick Migliacci. Go
your way, brother.
Let
me conclude what YOU INSIST:
-
God ENSURES that all His children experience temporal salvation.
-
God also ENSURES that some of His children experience ZERO temporal salvation.
-
The parable of the sower shows God ENSURES some of His children to be fruitless
and BARREN.
Please
note: the parable of the sower ADDRESSES THOSE THAT ARE IN THE KINGDOM... not
how to get into the kingdom, how to be saved, and remain saved, and ensure a
place in heaven.
That
is your BASIC and fundamental error in understanding the parable.
So,
you don't believe that God's children can be fruitless. You insist that the
fruitless are not God's children, to begin with.
That's
a plain contradiction of the plain teaching of the Bible:
Apostle Peter writing to "them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" warns them in these SOLEMN words: "For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Apostle
writing to ALL THOSE SAINTS in Corinth and Achaia these words, "We then,
as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of
God in vain."
God's
children who are careless will be fruitless. Christ said it, and His apostles warn
against it solemnly... but Nick rejects it!
Thanks...
keep your work-based salvation. I hope you do well enough to qualify for a place in
heaven.
Dellis
Layne Worsham Sr.
I
found that while I was a child coming up that many times I did something wrong,
something in which my dad would definitely not approve of. While in err I felt
guilty and as though I wasn't at peace with Dad, if he found out what I had done
from someone else, things would just be worse. Our fellowship was lost because
of my guilt...I eventually couldn't take it any, or am told him what I had done
and ina lot of cases he confessed to already knowing but out of love for the
fellowship, he waited for me to confess. He was always faithful and just to
forgive, though sometimes a punishment came even after the confession...That
reminds me of temporal salvation. Eternal salvation is always on this wise. No
matter what sins I commit while here, Christ, my advocate, takes the blame and
paid the price and sees to it that all that is given to Him are never
lost....this ensures that we will, one day, stand before God as sons of God
without blame. If you want to have a closer walk with Christ, while here on
earth, stay and be honest with Him because if you try to hide your sins from
Jesus, you are only fooling yourself...He already knows.
King David lost a child because of his unconfessed infidelity and murder...He was punished during his temporal salvation but it affected his eternal salvation none...We workout out our own temporal salvation, God worked out the eternal one.
Sing
F Lau
Good
illustration. Thanks Dellis.
