Pure Madness! Using Cornelius to Defend and Promote 'Gospel Regeneration'

The galaxy M100
Many use things like this to prove 'big-bang' idea!

 

by Sing F Lau on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 at 11:39pm

A dear brother was at a service in a so-called reformed baptist church in the capital city, where its pastor was preaching from Acts 10, trying desperately to establish the popular LIE of gospel regeneration from the account of Cornelius' conversion.

He commented about the preacher:
"He opined that Cornelius was unregenerated [sic] until Peter brought the gospel to him. He reiterated that the offering of alms and devoutness of Cornelius is no different from that of a pious Muslim; good works that will never bring him to the doorstep of the celestial city. Clumsily the pastor tried to prove that one needs to hear the word before the Spirit can operate simultaneously [to regenerate the dead]. What a pathetic understanding and a very low opinion of God and His majesty."

My comments:
The saddest thing is that Acts 10 is the WORST passage to pick to promote the lie of gospel regeneration: the common and popular notion that gospel preaching is the necessary instrument the Holy Spirit uses to regenerate men dead in trespasses and sins.

Why are so many preachers SO ADDICTED to this lie, that their preaching of the word is the necessary instrument for the Holy Spirit's work of regenerating those dead in trespasses and sins? Read here later: http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2010/10/why-addiction-to-gospel-regeneratiom.html

Any way, here is a little note I wrote in response to assure the Brother the truth of the matter.
======

Dear Brother, and any brethren in Christ who cares,
Thank you for communicating. It saddens me greatly that such a wonderful passage of Scriptures on direct and immediate regeneration without means has been so perverted and twisted to teach the lie of gospel regeneration. Thank you for inquiring for the truth.

It is very common, and even popular to the RBs as well as the Arminians (both the sprinkler and immersion schools) to believe that Cornelius was not regenerated (i,e still dead in trespasses and sin, still under the condemnation of death) UNTIL Apostle Peter brought the gospel message to him, and the Holy Spirit uses the gospel message as the instrument TOWARDS regenerating Cornelius, and to enable him to believe the gospel IN ORDER TO BE regenerated. That is the popular and common belief - among the reformed people, as well as the Arminians.

Now, let us take a look at Cornelius as presented to us in the Scriptures in Acts 10 and 11.It is very interesting to note that the NT Scriptures give so much space to describe the work of grace in this Gentile.

The question before us is simply this: Was Cornelius an unregenerated man - STILL dead in trespasses and sins - BEFORE Apostle Peter brought the gospel message to him? Or was Cornelius already a regenerated man BEFORE Apostle Peter came along with the gospel message?

How does the Scriptures portray this man to us before God sent a preacher to him: Is the picture that of a man STILL dead in trespasses and sins, or Is it a picture of a regenerated man, doing the things that only a regenerated elect can do?

I hope we have got the specific issue clearly before your eyes!

Look at the Scriptures now. Have your Bible wide opened. Don't skip. Read them... give particular attention to those words I have highlighted in red bold.

Acts 10:
1 ¶ There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. 4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
24 ... And Cornelius waited for them, and had called together his kinsmen and near friends.
33 ... Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
34 ¶ Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. 

Please ask the simple question:
- Do we have an un-regenerated man who needed to be regenerated through the preaching of the gospel, OR OR OR
- Do we have a regenerated man who needs to be converted to the gospel truth through the preaching of the gospel?

Does an unregenerate man, STILL in his native state of trespasses and sins, fear God at all, or pray to God always? Cornelius is said to be a devout man, and in context that devoutness is towards the God that Apostle Peter preached, and not just to some nondescript deity of the pagans!

Of the natural man, dead in their native state of trespasses and sins, the Scriptures declare, " There is no fear of God before their eyes." Romans 3:18.

Any who would categorize Cornelius as an unregenerate man, against such clear and plain evidence, DOES take the name of God in vain (3rd commandment), bear false witness against Cornelius (9th commandment), contradict the plain statement of Scriptures (therefore a teacher of falsehood and lies), and should be VERY ashamed for PERVERTING and TWISTING God's holy word to teach such a heinous LIE.

2Ti 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." Such a CORRUPTER of Scriptures is not approved of God.

The God of heaven affirmed Cornelius' work of righteousness in verse 4. "Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God." His religious life is directed to the God of heaven, and it is acknowledged. God affirmed the good works of Cornelius. But of the unregenerated, it is said "... There is none that doeth good, no, not one." Romans 3:12a. But God memorialized Cornelius' good works... long before Peter came.

Cornelius "called together his kinsmen and near friends" so that they may hear all that God has commanded his messenger (apostle Peter) to preach to them. Isn't this clear evidence of spiritual life, a thirst and hunger for spiritual truth, and a great desire for the spiritual good of his loved ones???

Is that a picture of an unregenerated man? Does an unregenerated man have such interest in spiritual things, in what God has to say to him? What do the Scriptures say about men in their native state? "
Rom 8: 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

But God was PLEASED with Cornelius! That's God's own declaration concerning him!

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
But Cornelius received the things of the Spirit of God. He discerned spiritual things~

Eph 2: 1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

But all of Cornelius' actions showed that he was no longer dead in trespasses and sins, i.e. he WAS ALREADY regenerated BEFORE Apostle Peter was sent to him. Cornelius proves himself a child of OBEDIENCE... fearing God, doing works of righteousness, obeying God and sending for Apostle Peter, NOT Pastor Peter. Cornelius was NO MORE a child of wrath... but a child loved and approved and accepted by God... ALL THESE BEFORE Peter came into the picture.

Apostle Peter discovered a momentous truth when God sent this Jewish man on his mission to ENLIGHTEN Cornelius. Read this public confession of Apostle Peter: "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation, he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

Apostle Peter himself PERCEIVED something that he was IGNORANT until that day! "I perceive" is in the present tense, indicative mood, and middle voice!

There are a few IMPORTANT things to be noted from Peter's discovery.

 ONE:

- Peter was ignorant of some important truths until that day. He has always believed that salvation is only reserved for the Jews, i.e. God favoured and showed partiality to the Jews.
- EVEN SO, RBs and all the Arminians are also ignorant in a similar manner. They insist that God shows partiality... that He regenerates ONLY those who have the privilege to hear the gospel. They believe in a God who is a respecter of persons... He shows partiality based on outward circumstances, like ability, and or opportunity to hear the gospel.
- 'No gospel preaching, no regeneration' is their mantra! Of course, they invent the 'exception' notion to cover their obvious error. But their exception notion is condemned by Christ's own words. Check here: http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2010/11/so-is-every-one-that-is-born-of-spirit.html
- At least Peter admitted publicly his prejudice and ignorance. He is a great man. Little cowards don't admit their ignorance and errors! Or maybe, they are just too blind to see, or too proud to admit, their errors. "It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks" admonishes the Lord.
- I was made to see mine, admitted mine, and moved on... and I am a happy man with a clear conscience! Blessed be the Lord! He shows mercy to a worm, and makes me a learning worm!

TWO:

- Cornelius was publicly acknowledged as being already a man who fears God and works righteousness before the coming of Peter.
- Cornelius was an example of God's children (the elect whom God the Spirit has regenerated directly without, and APART from, the instrumentality of the gospel preachers) found in every nation.
- God has His children in every nation throughout the world... that is why preachers are sent out to preach the gospel to them and gather them into NT churches...
- If any man denies that Cornelius was already a child of God (REGENERATED LAH!), then Cornelius must still be a man in his native state of being dead in trespasses and sins... and that such an unregenerated man does, and can, fear God and works righteousness too! I firmly believe that even the Arminians don't believe such a blatant lie!

THREE:

- Cornelius, who fears God and works righteousness IS ALREADY ACCEPTED with God. Cornelius was ALREADY accepted by God WITHOUT any man's work of bringing the gospel to him... without Peter's work!
- And what is this acceptance? When did it take place? - This acceptance takes place at God's appointed and accepted time when God effectually calls an elect OUT OF his native state of sin and death to that STATE of grace and salvation.
- Effectual Call to grace and salvation necessarily involves these divine activities of God:
----- justification by free grace (condemnation removed, righteousness applied)
----- regeneration (deadness removed, eternal life given)
----- adoption + gift of the Spirit to dwell in the regenerated!

Without any one of these free grace acts of God, one cannot possibly be brought OUT OF the state of sin and death and INTO the state of grace and salvation! Only an elect effectually called by God to grace and salvation out of his NATIVE state of sin and death is then ABLE to respond and answer to the gospel call... leading to justification by their believing in Christ.

Apostle Peter was sent to preach the gospel, the good news, of what God has ALREADY done for Cornelius... so that Cornelius may know the glorious truth of his eternal salvation by God's free grace... so that he may experience and rejoice in Christ who saved him.

The wicked and popular lie being propagated is called 'gospel regeneration'. Many articles in the blog here deal with this popular error. http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/ Take a look.
The Arminains believe it as much as the RBs do!

May our Lord bless each one of us as we seek to believe the truth. We live in a perilous time.
Apostle Paul warned, "3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

Please read this passage and do the necessary: James 5:19
"Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."

You are free to forward these few thoughts to any who ERRS FROM THE TRUTH... May our Lord have pity, and convert them to the truth.

your brother and servant in Christ,
sing

=========

Jerry Chapin
As you stated, Bro. Sing, Acts 10 is probably the worst place in Scripture to try to promote gospel regeneration...That whole passage is brimming with salvation by Grace verses...one would really have to twist the Scripture to get anything else out of it.

Thank you for your answer...Blessings...

Sing
Prejudice BLINDS common and plain sense.
What more proof is needed to show that men choose to believe a lie!

Expect what great things, attempt what great things?

Wild ginger flower!
Forget about tulip!

October 31 at 11:41pm

Johnso posted:
Expect great things from God; attempt great things for God.

Blackfo
but of course!!!

Dome
William Carey??

Sing F Lau
Expect only those things that are consistent with His decretive and preceptive will!

Johnso
Sing: I am sure that is what Carey meant, but the above is a lot more pithy than your protracted statement.

Sing F Lau
I am sure Carey knew what he meant, no doubt about it! It is those without Carey's theological mooring, his statement may be taken to mean ridiculous things - things contrary to God's decretive and preceptive will!

I observe that new school... calvinists have drifted very far away from the beliefs of the old school calvinists.

Johnso
The supposed "old school calvinists" were the Anti-Missions folks or Hardshells which emerged about the 1820s or 1830's in response to the modern missions movement and Luther Rice's fund raising efforts...thus, ironically the baptist supporting the 1644 and 1689 Confessions of Faith are called by you and the Primitives as "New School" even though we preceded your departure from these historic doctrines by at least 200 years.

[sing: I have just discovered these words... issued by the so-called Primitive Baptists on mission, and mission board. I find it interesting.
The Black Rock Address brethren wrote:
“We will now call your attention to the subject of Missions. Previous to stating our ob...jections to the mission plans, we will meet some of the false charges brought against us relative to this subject, by a simple and unequivocal declaration, that we do regard as of the first importance the command given of Christ, primarily to His apostles, and through them to his ministers in every age, to "Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature," and do feel an earnest desire to be found acting in obedience thereunto, as the providence of God directs our way, and opens a door of utterance for us.

We also believe it to be the duty of individuals and churches to contribute according to their abilities, for the support, not only of their pastors, but also of those who go preaching the gospel of Christ among the destitute.

But we at the same time contend, that we have no right to depart from the order which the Master himself has seen fit to lay down, relative to the ministration of the word.

We therefore cannot fellowship the plans for spreading the gospel, generally adopted at this day, under the name of Missions; because we consider those plans throughout a subversion of the order marked out in the New Testament.”

Sing F Lau
Just one question to make sure I get you correctly: were those particular baptists who subscribed to the 1689 up to and before the 1820s or 1830s known as 'New School'?

In what sense where they anti-mission? Were they anti church-centred Sp...irit-led evangelism of converted God's children, or were they anti mission-board organized activities to gather souls into heaven? What were they opposed to? I wish to know!

I understand the modern mission group eventually abandoned the 1689 and became thorough fullerite arminians. Then in the 1960s some came to their sense about their historical roots, 'reformed' themselves and call themselves RBs... but they are still afar off from their roots, from which their forefathers had departed.

Better to keep to what is at hand.
Can you indicate what were the great things Carey had in mind in that wonderful statement? May be that would be helpful. What were the great things he expected from God? What were the great things he wanted to attempt for God?

It would be very helpful if you can tell us what Carey meant by those words.

Johnso
In the 1820s and 1830's the original issue was the formation of missions methodology and the existence of mission boards and tract societies and sunday schools and the gathering of funds for missions. Many anti-missions baptists salndered L...uther Rice's motives as he travelled around raising money for Adoniram Judson and the American Board.

Then, it seems the Anti-Missionary groups begin to change doctrine and deny any means... It started with mission boards, then went to the Word of God in Scriptures and then Faith as the appropriating means by which Jesus unites us to Himself. Very soon, many of these Hardshells or Primitive baptists were advocating direct Holy Spirit regeneration whereby folks are regenerated who do not possess faith and without hearing the Word of God.

Carey desired to go to the heathen and preach the Gospel to then, which is the means by which God converts the unsaved.

Setliff
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0tAfrPlNq8
"If Calvinism is True, Why Evangelize?"

Edward
Whitefield. Great Reformed Evangelists.

Sing F Lau
I hope you can help me to understand the exact issue involved.
Before the so-called mission and anti-mission controversy, were there any 'mission' work of some sort? I assumed there was.

From what you said above, it seems the issue was not evangelism or mission itself, but 'mission methodology'. So, I assume that the mission methodology is indeed something new to those who held to the 1689 UP TO that point in time.

And the new mission methodology did lead to the DOCTRINAL DOWNGRADE that brought about the new school theology. Old theology was morphed to fit and complement the new methodology.

My interest was piqued mainly from the PLAIN fact that those who CLAIM to hold to the same 1689 BCoF could end up believing DIAMETRICALLY opposed teachings!

Well, I am not really surprised because even the same Holy Scriptures (of the same translation) can be made to read to teach opposite things! There are hard-core Arminians and there are convinced Calvinists among those who use the KJT, or any translation for that matter. And there are also those who are consciously NEITHER arminians nor calvinist, rejecting both as erroneous.

After years of studying the Scriptures and examining the 1689 and dealing with the RBs in Malaysia, I am convinced that the RBs I deal with in Malaysia are REALLY Arminians but love the 'elitist' and 'fashionable' label! I was a RB for 15 years... found too many inconsistencies and contradictions along the way...

I am convinced that the present reformed baptists have departed far away from the old particular baptists.

In any case, let us return to your great quote from Carey.

What did he mean in the context of "Carey desired to go to the heathen and preach the Gospel to then, which is the means by which God converts the unsaved."

Are the "unsaved heathen"  in your statement above those who are still dead in their trespasses and sins, or those already regenerated, whom God will convert through your preaching?

Sing F Lau ‎
"If Calvinism is True, Why Evangelize?"
=====
That's a great question!
Tell us the answer - in brief!
I like to see whether the answer is consistent with Scriptures!

Johnso
Sing: I think the Malaysian and SE Asian RBs would seriously disagree with you. More than one even warned me not to engage you at all because you were reported to be a contentious man who had written off the whole RB movement in SE Asia as ..."Arminian."

But I continue to engage you because I see that you are trying to preserve a focus on God's sovereignty in salvation.

Your doctrine seems very close to other Primitive Baptists that I know. I believe the Primitive Baptist err on a number of counts, the main one being "direct Spirit regeneration" without the preaching of the Word of God. God ordinarily uses the preaching of the Word of God in the conversion of souls.

I posted some Bob Ross videos to my profile. I'd love to hear what you think of Bob Ross's critiques of the Hardshell (Anti-missions) baptists.

Page
continue this discussion...

Johnso
Charles, unfortunately I go interior tomorrow and might not have internet accessibility until December 17th (unless I can have a satellite system installed next week..which is the plan).

So, gentlemen's agreement...let's postpone this talk... until I regain net accessibility and then we can fullly engage these topics.

p.s. don't use this as an occasion to fill this thread with 200 replies in the meantime and overwhelm me with sheer volume...

Sing F Lau
When men cannot deal with issues, they just call names.
Who is contentious? Seven churches OFFICIALLY raised seven charges of doctrinal errors against me and my church... and then just muzzled up, until today!

And the 7 charges they raised proved that they are really arminians. None of my seven replies to those seven charges have ever been answered to this day! [Noel Espinosa who answered on their behalf is no more enlightened on the subject of justification as them... complete ignorant of the distinction between forensic justification applied by God's free grace, and justification evidenced and manifested by believing... being ignorant of the distinction, he confused them and fused them, resulting in forensic justification by God through faith!]

Any who want to read those seven charges, and the response to them, while waiting for you to return, can go here:
http://pruning-deformed-branches.blogspot.com/

I will wait for you to return!
Until then, may the Lord bless you richly.

Sing F Lau
And read here on gospel regeneration... to prepare for a useful discussion on gospel regeneration.
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2010/10/why-addiction-to-gospel-regeneratiom.html

Johnso
Sing: God bless you and I will see you on December 17th (or sooner if my satellite goes up). Thanks for the discussions.

Page
My personal hero is John Ryland, Sr. and his response to Carey's request. Trevor, what do you think Ryland's view of Spirit regeneration was? did he reflect the old school baptist?

Sing F Lau
That incident has often abused and exaggerated or misunderstood. I am not sure what really transpired. [It has been be twisted by the new school calvinists to slander and caricature those spiritual giants known as the particular baptists of the time.]

Carey's words could have indicated as advocating gospel regeneration, which was an idea so foreign and anathema to the particular baptists... of the time, and Ryland's appropriate response seen in that light.

Carey was ALREADY influenced by Fuller's poisonous ideas. I don't believe that Ryland, like any particular baptists of the day, was against evangelism to convert God's children who are out there in the world.

Go this site, and you will read of many articles on Fuller and Carey and your hero Ryland the history and happening at that time...

http://evangelica.de/
Read this article: http://evangelica.de/articles/doctrine/an-unworthy-gospel-fullerism/

Sing F Lau
I have just discovered these words... issued by the so-called Primitive Baptists on mission. I find it interesting. The Black Rock Address brethren wrote:
“We will now call your attention to the subject of Missions. Previous to stating our objections to the mission plans, we will meet some of the false charges brought against us relative to this subject, by a simple and unequivocal declaration, that we do regard as of the first importance the command given of Christ, primarily to His apostles, and through them to his ministers in every age, to "Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature," and do feel an earnest desire to be found acting in obedience thereunto, as the providence of God directs our way, and opens a door of utterance for us.

We also believe it to be the duty of individuals and churches to contribute according to their abilities, for the support, not only of their pastors, but also of those who go preaching the gospel of Christ among the destitute.

But we at the same time contend, that we have no right to depart from the order which the Master himself has seen fit to lay down, relative to the ministration of the word.

We therefore cannot fellowship the plans for spreading the gospel, generally adopted at this day, under the name of Missions; because we consider those plans throughout a subversion of the order marked out in the New Testament.”
=========

Trevor, do you think that is a true description of the ISSUE?

What is that which is perfect - 1Cor 13:8-13

 Here is a bible study note

 Study 4: What is ‘that which is perfect has come’ (13:8-13)
11 Jun 1996

Introduction
a. At the end of chapter 12 Paul says he is going to show us a more excellent way. In doing so, he turns our mind away from the special spiritual gifts and focuses our attention upon a supreme spiritual grace - agape.
- In 13:1-8a, the apostle Paul reminds us three important things about agape - a love that is patterned after God's love for us in Christ - love is indispensable, love has distinct character, and love is permanent.
- Love never fails! This abiding love is then contrasted with the spiritual gifts that the Corinthian believers are obsessed with. These spiritual gifts are all temporary - they will fail, they will be abolished. When?

b. Apostle Paul states categorically that these gifts (prophecy, tongues, and knowledge) will fail, and cease, etc.
- Note that these gifts belong to a common category. That is why they are mentioned together. These are special revelatory gifts that have to do with the revelation of God's word.
- The certainty that they will fail is indisputable: 'shall fail', 'shall cease', and ‘shall vanish away'.
- The time, though clearly stated, as "when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away" - is the sore point of dispute.
- Our task is to understand this passage before us with three basic rules of interpretation: There is no contradiction in God’s word; the text must be seen in its context; and Scripture itself must interpret Scripture.
- What is "that which is perfect" and has "that which is perfect" come? Let the Scriptures speak for itself.

He who interprets the Scripture without taking its meaning from the Scripture does violence to the Scripture.

1. Some General Observations
a. Verses 9 and 10 constitute one sentence in the Greek text. This means that the subject (the matter under consideration) of the two verses is the same. They are speaking of the same thing.
- The same basic thing is being compared. It was in part (incomplete) at the time when the epistle was written, but it will become complete (perfect) sometime in the future, future with respect to the Apostle Paul.
- The subject of the "in part" in verse 9 is about the special revelatory gifts of prophecy and knowledge. This is the subject throughout the one sentence in verses 9-10.
- The mention of the special revelatory gifts of knowledge and prophecy would automatically include "tongues" since it is in the same category and is listed between the other two that are mentioned.
- "that which is perfect" (to teleion) is neuter (ie. not masculine or feminine). It means 'the completed thing'.
- "that which is in part" (merous - plural of meros) is also neuter. It means parts of a completed whole.
- The subject is a neuter thing. It cannot possibly refer to Jesus Christ (masculine) or heaven (masculine).

b. "shall be done away" is katargethesetai - third person future passive indicative of katargeo, meaning 'to abolish, to destroy, to bring to an end'. Apostle Paul was inspired to use this very strong word to express the cessation of these gifts. This word implies that the abolition of the gifts was to be a complete obliteration beyond recall, abolished such that they will never be revived again, destroyed and never to be seen again.

2. 'That which is Perfect'
a. 'to teleion' - an adjective in its various gender - masculine (teleios), feminine (teleia), neuter (teleion) is used 18 times in the whole of NT. In all its usage, to teleion is never once used to describe Jesus Christ, or heaven, or the second coming of Christ - the common but erroneous interpretations insisted by the charismatics and some others. The plain meaning of the text excludes these baseless interpretations.
- Kindly check for yourself the 18 occurrences in these passages: Mt 5:28 (2x), 19:21; Rm 12:2; 1Cor 2:6, 13:10, 14:20; Eph 4:13; Phil 3:15; Col 1:28, 4:12; Heb 5:14, 9:11; Ja 1:4 (2x), 1:25, 3:2; 1Jn 4:18.

b. 'to teleion' means "having reached its end or destination, i.e. finished, complete, perfect."
- It is used for persons, primarily of physical development, with its ethical import. eg 1Cor 2;6, 14:20.
- It is used of things, referring to its completeness. eg Rm 12:2; Ja 1:4,25.
- In 1Cor 13:10, it refers "to the complete revelation of God's will and ways..." (Vine)
- At the time the epistle was written, 'that which is perfect' was only in a state of merous - only partial and incomplete. But this partial and incomplete thing was in the process of being made whole and brought to completion/completeness. Can this be a reference to Christ or heaven?

Can there ever be a Christ or heaven in a partial state progressing towards completion??????? Is Christ or heaven ever in a state of progress???????
- This is a plain and simple description of the progression of the revelation of God. The revelation of God was given progressively (in clarity) and cumulatively (in quantity) until it was completed. The revelation of God was in the process of coming to perfection/completion by the completion of the Holy Scripture. Rev 22:18-

c. "we know in part and we prophesy in part" :
- before "that which is perfect has come", this is the manner of God's revelation. The complete Bible did not drop down from heaven. Nor was it given in parts through just one prophet. It was given in many parts (instalments) through many different prophets. cp Heb 1:1. So also was the NT scripture. No one had complete knowledge, each was given a part of the divine revelation. Combined together, they will finally have the complete/perfect whole.
- When apostle Paul was writing the epistle to the Corinthian believers, the OT Scripture was already completed, but the NT Scripture was being revealed. It was also given progressively and cumulatively, given in parts through various different people, apostle Paul being one of them. All of them could only know in part and prophesy in part.

- But once "that which is perfect has come" - once we have the completed revelation of God inscripturated, then the completed revelation of God has come. That which is perfect has come. Knowing in part and prophesying in part have fulfilled their divine purposes. The part-ial manner of revelation, in the process of time, has brought in the completed manner of revelation - the completed Holy Scripture. cp 2Tim 3:16-17.
- When the partial has served its purpose of bringing in the completed, the partial is abolished forever.

d. This truth of the revelation of God is described elsewhere in similar way:
- 2Tim 3:15-17: "... The Holy Scriptures... all Scripture is God-breathed... that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." The completeness of the Scripture is emphasized.
- Ja 1:21-25: "... the implanted word... be doers of the word and not hearers only... he who looks into the teleion law of liberty..." All these refer to the revealed word of God.
- When Scripture interprets Scripture, we find that the revelation of God is described as that which is perfect and completed. When the full revelation has come with the completed Scripture, the special revelatory gifts (knowledge, tongues and prophecy), which revealed in part are no longer needed and are abolished.

e. "And now abide faith, hope, love...": even when Paul was writing this letter to the Corinthians believers, he could see that the abolition of the special revelatory gifts mentions in verse 8 was so certain and soon afterward. These special revelatory gifts were confined to the beginning stage of the gospel age. When all has been revealed, those revelatory means ordained by God is no longer needed, and they are abolished.
- As early as AD 57 (about the time 1Cor. was written) Paul already foretold in the plainest term that these special revelatory gifts shall cease. As far as Paul is concerned, what will abide throughout the gospel age are these three - faith, hope and love, not the special revelatory gifts.

3. The Three Illustrations
a. Note carefully the singular purpose of these illustrations: to contrast the partial with the complete, to contrast the passing away of the partial with the permanence of that which is complete. To press them beyond their intended purpose is to do violence to the purpose, the text and also to the context. Bear this principle in mind as you try to understand the illustrations.

b. "When I was a child...": the picture of a child growing up into maturity. The partial/incomplete state of childhood is contrasted to the relatively mature state at adulthood. The state of childhood is equivalent to "that which is in part". The childhood state about many things is partial, not complete – relatively speaking.
- So when the complete (adulthood) way of revelation has come, the partial (childhood) ways of revelation (knowledge, tongues, and prophecy) were abolished. The childhood stage must give way to adulthood. What is progressive and cumulative must come to completion, and arrive at maturity.

- 'When I became a man, I put away childish things' – childish things are things suitable and appropriate for the childhood stage. The childish things refer to the special revelatory gifts for the apostolic church – the church at its infant stage. They are put away (abolished) when the complete revelation of God was committed to the church.
- The partial means (knowledge, tongues, and prophecy) must give way to the complete (the Holy Scripture).
- Despising the complete and all-sufficient Holy Scripture the charismatics are returning to childish things... they are de-gressing, going backward, refusing to grow up, reverting to childhood days.

c. "For now we see in a mirror...": remember that mirror was made of highly polished metal plate, and therefore its reflection at its best is only partial and incomplete - "dimly". This is contrasted with "to see face to face."
- Try looking at a person's face in a polished metal plate and then looking at his face to face. So the vast difference! In one you see partially, in the other, you see completely, pimples and dimples and wrinkles and all.
- "face to face": what does this phrase mean, meeting Christ at His return? When we see Christ in heaven?
- This same phrase is used in Ex 33:11& Num 12:8. Note carefully the context in which this phrase occurs. In both passages, this phrase is used to describe the manner which God revealed Himself to Moses. It is a comparison of the types of revelation, both infallible, but one in part, the other in whole. cp Heb 1:1
- It is obvious that this phrase describes something on earth, not in heaven! It is about the giving and receiving of divine revelation, nothing to do with heaven or meeting with Christ, or Christ's return. Scriptures must be interpreted by Scriptures.

d "... shall I know even as also I am known": a rabbinic illustration of a man sitting in a brightly lit room in complete view of a visitor coming into the room. The visitor can see him clearly in the bright room, but when the visitor come into the room, the man shall ‘know’ the visitor just as he is ‘known’ by the visitor, because they now see face to face in the bright room.

e. Historically, the special revelatory gifts of prophecy and knowledge stopped, and tongues ceased, (as foretold by the apostle Paul in verse 8) at the completion of the Bible toward the end of the first century AD.
- Many are deluded in claiming that these signs of the apostles continue today!
- Many are deluded in claiming that there is connection between revelatory gifts and spirituality.

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Comments

sing F Lau
If you think it will advance the cause of the gospel truth, go ahead.

Michael Gowens
An excellent exegesis of the text! I especially appreciate the point you made about the use of the "telos" root in the NT. I may have to swipe that from you, Br Sing.

Charles Page
Our preacher holds up his leather-bound Ryrie NASV Study Bible and proudly announces "We have that which is perfect"! Is he correct to be doing this?

Sing
No, no no!

Charles Page
what if it was a big KJV Bible?

William D Martin
Will someone please answer the question? What is that which is perfect. I have not seen anything or anyone who is perfect. Is it still to come?

Charles Page
But aren't many as well deluded in thinking that they have the perfect in written form and those well trained in Greek and Hebrew are able to give the perfect interpretation of the original documents?

One can grow weary of someone like John MacArthur who claims authority to preach a message of condemnation based on his 'excellent' exposition and has the right to point out and condemn false prophets and even assert that the whole Corinthian congregation is choatic with the exception of the leaders naturally.

William D Martin
Sing, may be you are right in your understanding and presentation of I Cor 1:13. It is very thorough and well presented, but I do not understand how we can say that the KJV of the bible or any other translation of the scriptures is what Paul was referring to. I do not know what he was referring to. I believe He was referring to Christ return. I do not believe any man can stand in that place and say " I have a perfect understanding of all of the scriptures". May be one day I will be able to say that I know or have met that man.

Sing F Lau
You miss the whole point Martin... it is NOT the perfect understanding of the revelation... it is the COMPLETE SOURCE of the revelation. A complete source of revelation is a PERFECT SOURCE of revelation.

Richard Hellman
By your rational Sing then 1 Cor 14 is irrelevant for today.

Charles Page
complete source of revelation = ancient 2nd-century documents???

Sing F Lau
Hellman, that's what you think my rationale is!
Explain why should 1Cor 14 be irrelevant today?

Sing F Lau
complete source of revelation = All Scriptures given by the inspiration of God.

Charles Page
Is the voice of the Holy Spirit that speaks to us individually a trusted and complete source of revelation???

Sing F Lau
If one can FIRST ascertain that the voice is indeed the voice of the Spirit!

Peter said, 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 19 ¶ We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

The very voice of God and the MORE sure word...

Charles Page
The Holy Spirit speaks to every born-again believer and that voice is a sure word more dependable than the KJV. That voice speaks a language that is not native to the regenerate. It has to be heard by the human mind and then translated into the hearer's native language.

Naturally, this is where the problems arise. This translation in the mind has to be in accordance with the beliefs of the Elizabethan scholars (If you are American and speak English only) All of us are earthen vessels and have this hidden treasure and it is, PRIMARILY, within each one of us in it's purest form. The person of the Godhead resides with, in and upon all of us. God give us ears to hear what the Spirit is saying.

Charles Page
We are dependent on a SECONDARY revelation source to test and prove all things. This is Holy Scripture.

So if I was stranded on an island and didn't have a book at all I would not have any problem surviving spiritually. The Holy Spirit would be with me and no man can take Him away!

Sing F Lau
At effectual calling out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation in Jesus Christ, the Spirit is given to dwell in the heart of God's children. The Spirit works all the saving graces in them... the Spirit leads and guides them... but without Scriptures, they will remain ignorant of the truth of their redemption even through they have been bestowed eternal redemption.

Charles Page
that brings into the discussion which comes first the egg or the chicken!

Charles Page
in the unbaptized regenerated infant who dies, it is ignorant of the truth of their redemption. Could the Holy Spirit lead and guide if the regenerate had only a Taylor's Living Bible to study form? Yes, I believe so. If the regenerate was deep in Africa native with a less than sufficient translation in his language the Holy Spirit could and would still lead and guide them.

LOL look at the quality of American Evangelicals and their "deep and correct" translations and see what that has produced?

Charles Page
I think while we have argued over the infallibility of Sacred Scripture we have failed to argue for a supernatural regeneration that admits of a monergistic Spirit work that involves God himself in the individual believer. It argues for a mental assent to the truths and a will that acts independent of God.

Sing F Lau
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

TAUGHT OF THE FATHER... therefore a regenerate would know some basic things apart from the Scriptures.

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

They would know some basic things apart from the Scriptures.

2Tim 3 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Scriptures are INDISPENSABLE for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness... that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Does your God command a man to believe what is untrue?

Does your god command all men to believe Jesus as their savior?
Yes, of course!
Then he must have given Jesus to be the Savior of all men?
Sure, sure, of course! Your are quite right, buddy!
Blah... blah... blah...

October 6 at 5:41pm ·
Friends, does your God command and require a man to believe a lie? Many preachers speak and act as though their God most certainly does! If God does not, then are they not taking the name of the Lord in vain - the 3rd commandment?

The new school calvinists believe in gospel regeneration and free offer of salvation.

They believe that the gospel preaching is a necessary means to aid the Holy Spirit in His work of regenerating the spiritually dead. Therefore their minis...try is INDISPENSABLE - i.e. without their preaching,, the Holy Spirit is impotent in His work of regeneration.

In their preaching, they sincerely and genuinely and compassionately offer the salvation in Jesus Christ to all the hearers, calling all to repent and believe in Jesus Christ in order to be saved by God. They declares that God demands and requires all men everywhere, including the non-elect to believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior in order to be saved by God.

Does God command the non-elect to believe that God sent Jesus Christ to be their Savior? Does God require a man to believe a lie?

Does God command a preacher to command the non-elect to believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior? Does God require a preacher to misrepresent him, and make Him a liar?

Patron
‎"Does God command the non-elect to believe that God sent Jesus Christ to be their Savior? Does God require a man to believe a lie?"

According to that statement , If I'm gonna share the gospel with people I've never met before , should I ask them: "Is there any elect from God here, because I'm about to share the gospel and command to believe and repent"

Sing F Lau
Good question.
Yoel, what are you actually doing when you share the gospel?
Are you declaring the good news of what God has done to save His people, and that whosoever believe HAS ETERNAL life, or are you offering salvation to all your hearers so that whoever will believe will get eternal life?

If the former, why do you have to find out if any among the hearers are elect from God? How do you find out where there are any of God's children in the crowd? You proclaim the good news of what God has done. God's children among the hearers will manifest themselves by their faith in Jesus Christ.

What is the purpose or need for you to identify who among your hearers are elect from God? Elect from God who has not be regenerated will ALSO consider the most eloquent preaching of the cross utter foolishness anyway!

In any crowd of hearers, there will be God's children, and those who are not. Just preach to the whole crowd... like the apostles did, very conscious that your preaching is ONLY relevant to God's children among your hearers, EVEN THOUGH you cannot identity who they are. Only God's children among your hearers can believe

But if you preach in such a way as to offer salvation to all your hearers, and say that God demands and commands all your hearers to believe in Jesus Christ, then you are in effect command the non-elect to believe a BIG FAT LIE!

Chapin
Bro. Sing, you covered all that very well, as usual...Your answer is plain and understandable to those that seek the truth, but will be passed by those who already have their agenda in place...
Patron
very helpful , much as gracias!! and I have a few books from modern reformed, it doesn't mean that everything written in their books is 100% error ?? found a lot of things helpful.... from the old ones I have John Owen on the Holy Spirit. Lloyd Jones Studies in the sermon on the Mount

Sing F Lau
Get your hands on John Gill's work - especially his Body of Divinity, and The Cause of Truth. John Owen is good too - I have his complete work, and have studied most of them. But John Gill's Body of Divinity is really great!

No, I didn't say that everything written in their books is 100% error! [ I have plenty of those books - you name the Puritans, I would have them in my earlier days as a new Christian, I spent all my salary (was still single then!) buying up all those books published by the Banner of Truth (UK).]

On those points I have raised in my blogs and on the Facebook - they are MOST SERIOUSLY WRONG. I want to save them - some were very close friends and fellow ministers - from their horrible errors.

The Lord says:
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

This is true evangelism!

Patron
I hear you brother , I myself I'm in the middle of a Christ-less Christianity in USA churches, little preaching on the true Gospel and a lot of religion and moral-ism.
I'm in a typical "good people" church is all about being nice but little ...heart and passion for my hero Christ and the Gospel...
I can go to another church but they preach Lordship salvation gospel and is performance/moral/faith-evidence driven church and their pope is Dr. John MacArthur..... very sad

Christenson
Come to Beacon in Jupiter, Yoel. Will challenge you I am sure.

Sing F Lau
Yoel, board the next Space Shuttle, transit at ISS, then continue to Jupiter on Spate Cuttle!
For truth sake, I will move to a place there is a faithful NT church.

Ward
sing, the imperative command is given to all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel. Jesus preached repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand. Apart from the incorruptible seed of the word of God no one is born again.there is a reason God ordains the church to preach the Word of God.We know that it will only be heard by those with ears to hear, but we don't know who they are prior to preaching to them

Page
‎@ Lindsey. According to five point Calvinism if the imperative command is given to all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel then all men are regenerated? right? universal regeneration?

Ward
no, an imperative command does not imply that someone has the capacity to comply. there is no such teaching in scripture, nor is it implied that the atonement for sin is universal. many people hear the gospel, only the elect will respond to it in such a way as to receive it by faith.

That said we are called and commanded to preach the gospel to all.

Page
Is preaching to all including the call to all men to repent?

Ward
of course charles, the command is made to all men to surrender unconditionally to the Lord Jesus. [sing: ya, even those for whom Christ did not die to save... they are also commanded to believe in jesus Christ as their Savior... so they are commanded to be a LIE!]

Page
Repent? All the unregenerate are called to (repent) surrender unconditionally to the Lord Jesus? Can they resist this call?

Ward
charles i used the term commanded in my statement but if you want to use the word call you will have to distinguish between the call of the herald of the gospel and the call of the Holy Spirit to the elect. The first can be rejected the latter cannot.
Charles you really should give up your hyper-calvinism. It really is an unorthodox position. It denies that God has chosen the means as well as the end

Page
You think hyper-Calvinism "denies that God has chosen the means as well as the end" for men to be regenerated. I would think that is Calvinism at it's best!
Moderated Calvinism believes "that God has chosen the means as well as the end" for regeneration. [Ah... how many neo-calvinists can differentiate bewteen the two!]

Ward
Charles you would be incorrect then as the scripture says that God has given to us the ministry of reconciliation

2Cr 5:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
2Cr 5:19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

keep studing Charles i have seen you grow in your knowledge of our Lord and Saviour, and I am convinced that He who began a good work in you will complete it, but hyper calvinism is not a good doctrine

Sing F Lau
Hi Lindsey, some Chinese offer food and drink to the dead... and we say they are grossly superstitious... when the non-Chinese sincerely and genuinely call the dead to eat and drink, we say they are insanely delirious.

Yet so many intelligent new school calvinists believe the all wise and knowing God would offer salvation to the dead, and that He commands the dead to believe that Jesus is their Savior. Not only that, they also believe that God commands those whom He did not predestine to eternal salvation in Jesus Christ and for whom He expressly did not give his Son to be their Savior, to believe Jesus to be their Savior!

Some people can believe such a god as wise and rational and truthful. I believe such a god is a perverse and schizophrenic LIAR!

God purposed eternal salvation for a specific people, Christ secured that salvation for exactly the same people, and the Spirit of Christ applies that salvation to each elect personally... and the gospel ministry is sent forth to call EXACTLY THOSE to believe that which is already true of them by grace.

The call may be heard by many beside those intended because of the nature of the public call... that does not mean for one minute that it is intended for all who hear it with their ears.

When will God's children understand the divinely ordained purpose of the gospel ministry?

Sing F Lau
ONLY THOSE FOR WHOM THE GOSPEL IS INTENDED are called to repent and believe the truth.

All men everywhere is just that... God's children are found every where... so the gospel must be preached everywhere, and only God's children will believe..., because the gospel is true ONLY of the children of God.

The God I believe is the God of truth, and He does not command nor require any man to believe a lie. Any one who preaches and speak as though He does is most certainly a liar, as well as makes God a liar... He bears false witness against God.

The public proclamation of the gospel, in the nature of the case, though addressed to all indiscriminately, is only intended for God's children, i.e. the elect whom God has regenerated. Such are commanded to repent and believe the truth of their salvation by God's free grace.

A preacher who says that God commands and requires a non-elect to believe that Jesus died to save him is making a mockery of God...

Patron
Charles sound that one of those guys asking the Lord Jesus: "then who is my neighbor?" .... * right after Jesus command to love your neighbor as yourself!...
So Jesus command to love all men brethren or not , Jew or not Jew .
We all know that every person sitting on a pew at Church on Sundays is NOT a regenerated or born again nor an elect.... and because of that the preacher according to Charles can't preach any commands from the Lord??
Sing F Lau
Yoel, Charles can answer your questions.
I just want to make one comment so that your mind may stay clear:
God as creator, loves and cares for all His creatures. Therefore, the law to His people, 'love thy neighbors as thyself' for they are you fellow creature.

God as redeemer, loves and cares for His own. He purposed salvation for them, He secured salvation for them through His son Jesus Christ, and He applied that same salvation to each elect personally, and He send forth gospel preachers to proclaim the good news to such, so that they may be instructed concerning their eternal salvation in Jesus Christ, and be taught to live soberly, righteousness and godly in this present life here, before entering their eternal inheritance!

Ward
sing, both you and charles have a misunderstanding of preaching the Gospel. The command to repent and believe is the message the herald proclaims. The gospel will do one of two things. It will either save or it will harden, there is no neutral ground so to speak. The herald has no idea what are Gods purposes all he knows is that he is under divine compulsion to preach the gospel. If God chooses to save some ,or if He chooses to bring further condemnation that is solely up to God.

scripture references for my statement are
2Cr 2:16 To the one we are the aroma of death leading to death, and to the other the aroma of life leading to life. And who is sufficient for these things? and
Mar 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature
Mar 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Patron
A Bible NT example of evangelism and the sharing of the Gospel of the Christ, can't get more clear than these** "all that hear me this day"**
ACTS 26:28Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian. 29 And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.

Patron
But what I learn and I really like is that there is already regenerated people that are gonna be converted as soon as somebody preaches the gospel of Christ to them and also already converted like myself will get strengthened in the faith even more

Ward
love it when God converts a sinner to the faith
Sing F Lau
Lindsay, it would be very kind of you to at least explain or elaborate on where I have misunderstood the preaching of the gospel.

I will say that you are muddle headed... and here are the explanation, from the things you have stated.

You said: "The command to repent and believe is the message the herald proclaims. The gospel will do one of two things it will either save or it will harden there is no neutral ground so to speak."

The gospel, the good news of what God HAS DONE to save His people, will be received as the good news of God's power in salvation to those that God HAS SAVED. The same message will be rejected as a message of foolishness.

The gospel HAS NO POWER to save... the gospel is the good news of what God has done to save His elect in Jesus Christ, and applied by His Spirit.

Take note of this declaration very carefully:
1Cor 1:18 "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."

The preaching of the gospel COMES to those that ARE SAVED (already saved by God's free grace) and to them that are perishing (those that are still in their native state of sins and death). To those that ARE SAVED (by God's free grace) the gospel is perceived and believed as the power of God in saving them. To them are perishing, the same glorious gospel is perceived and rejected as foolishness.

The gospel is INTENDED for those that ARE SAVED by God. Of course when they believe the gospel, the gospel of Jesus Christ will also save them... save them from lies and falsehood and superstition... not the way God HAS SAVED through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Sing F Lau
Lindsay, I will say that you are muddle headed... and here is another explanation, from the things you have stated.

Uou said: "The herald has no idea what are Gods purposes all he knows is that he is under divine compulsion to preach the gospel. If God chooses to save some, or if He chooses to bring further condemnation that is solely up to God."

This where the trouble is. You say the herald has no idea what are God's purposes. Horror of horror! That professed ignorance is the root of all trouble!

The apostles KNEW VERY well why they were sent forth by God as His ambassadors... to call HIS PEOPLE to be reconciled to God... and the means to do so is the gospel message, that His people may come to the knowledge of their salvation by God's free grace. They knew EXACTLY God's purpose for them - to make disciples of God's children, the elect that are already effectually called to grace and salvation by God's free grace.
Sing F Lau
Lindsay @ "scripture references for my statement are
2Cr 2:16 To the one we are the aroma of death leading to death, and to the other the aroma of life leading to life. And who is sufficient for these things?"

This Scripture you quoted to support your idea states the OPPOSITE to what you want to make it say.

To those that are perishing, i.e. still in their natural state of sin and death, the gospel preachers (the pronoun 'we') are the aroma of death unto death - But to them that are already SAVED by God's free grace, the same gospel preachers are the aroma of life leading to life.

To those that ARE SAVED by God, the gospel preachers and their ministry nourish the life that God has already bestowed. But to them that are perishing, their hatred and rejection of the gospel preachers and their message confirm the deadness of these people.

Sing F Lau
Lindsay @ Mar 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature Mar 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
=======
Yes, Jesus instructed the Jewish disciples to go into all the world... don't just restrict yourselves to the Jews. God's children are found in all the tribes, nations, tongues and languages throughout the world... "Re 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"

Please remember that the salvation by God's free grace that enables a man to believe and be baptized is VERY DIFFERENT and DISTINCT from the salvation that comes from his believing the gospel and submission to water baptism.

God's children who are unbelieving shall suffer terrible condemnation here in this life. Many of God's children suffered condemnation because of unbelief... they were roasted like pigs in 70AD when the Romans razed Jerusalem to the ground.

Now, your turn to show forth my MIS-understanding of the preaching of the gospel.

Ward
sing not only does our preaching not "smell good to the unregenerate" it also serves to increase their sin and their rebellion toward God. You know like in the exodus with pharaoh.

Where you fail to understand the gospel ministry is that you seem to think that people are saved apart from the preaching of the gospel you say that there is a distinction between salvation by "free grace", and salvation that comes by believing the gospel.

*Please remember that the salvation by God's free grace that enables a man to believe and be baptized is VERY DIFFERENT and DISTINCT from the salvation that comes from his believing the gospel and submission to water baptism.*

Sing, there is only one salvation taught in scripture it is in common parlance called the gospel

What in my posts would suggest that I made any distinction between a Jewish and a gentile disciple. Yes, Jesus instructed the Jewish disciples to go into all the world... don't just restrict yourselves to the Jews

What do you offer as evidence that any christian lost his life in the great tribulation of the siege of Jerusalem. the only people to suffer during that siege were unbelievers and blasphemers you might read the wars of the Jews by Josephus

"God's children who are unbelieving shall suffer terrible condemnation here in this life. Many of God's children suffered condemnation because of unbelief... they were roasted like pigs in 70AD when the Romans razed Jerusalem to the ground."

also, what do you mean by suggesting that Gods children shall suffer terrible condemnation here in this life for their unbelief. suffering is no proof of sin.

Sing F Lau
Lindsey, "where you fail to understand the gospel ministry is that you seem to think that people are saved apart from the preaching of the gospel you say that there is a distinction between salvation by "free grace",and salvation that comes... by believing the gospel."
==========
Let me try help to cure your misunderstanding.
Help to answer this question:
- How does God save you, and save you from what?
- How does your believing save you, and save you from what?
- Will you be able to believe if God has not saved you first?

- How can the salvation by God's free grace that enables you to believe be the same as the salvation that will come by your believing? How, dear brother? Gird up the loin of your mind, and think a little please!

I believe your main problem is that you fail to differentiate between the salvation that is by God's free grace, and the salvation that comes by your believing.

You would agree that God purposed eternal salvation for His people, and Christ accomplish that eternal salvation for the same people, and the Spirit of God applies that eternal salvation to each individual elect when they were in their native state of sin and death... and all these took place by God's free and sovereign grace, i.e. APART FROM any human co-operation or aid or instrument. That is why we say 'salvation is by God's free grace.' Anything that man can do is the EFFECTS of the salvation that has been bestowed by God's free grace.

There is a salvation that comes by hearing and believing the gospel. It saves a children of God from falsehood and superstition and lies - such as salvation somehow related to man's efforts. It enlightens him concerning the truth of his salvation by God's free grace, that instills assurance, confidence, hope, peace comfort, etc.

Let me give you an illustration: the life that you received from your parents through birth, and the life you will get through your obedience to their godly parenting are NOT one and the same are they? In the former, you were completely passive, they brought you into BEING; in the latter you are actively involved for your WELL-BEING.

God's free grace brought you into BEING as a child of God, all fitted for eternal glory, without any help or contribution or assistance from you - that is salvation by God's free grace in its true and correct sense.

You, having been brought in BEING as God's child, are commanded to believe the truth concerning your salvation by His free and sovereign grace... that you may know the truth and WALK in the truth... to live soberly, godly and righteously in the PRESENT life.

The gospel ministry is needed for the well-being of God's children... for their temporal salvation in this present life.

Their eternal salvation, to be delivered from the eternal wrath due to their sins is completely by the free grace of God.
If you can't or don't believe that, then refrain from mouthing 'salvation by God's free grace' ever again... because then you are only mouthing a religious shibboleth!

Sing F Lau
Lindsay @ "Sing, there is only one salvation taught in scripture it is in common parlance called the gospel"
========
Have you not read in the Holy Scriptures, that there is a salvation (of eternal in nature, as in the eternal redemption in ...Christ Jesus) by God's free grace, and there is a salvation (of temporal in nature) that God's children must work out for themselves with fear and trembling?

Common parlance is for the market place and slums, for ignorant and woolly folks... We who are students in the school of Jesus Christ have better learn to speak more exactly!

There is a salvation that is solely by the finished work of Jesus Christ, applied to God's elect solely by the free grace of God. That is eternal salvation, delivering His elect from the eternal wrath due to them for their sins.

There is a distinct salvation that comes through the response of God's children - that whom God has saved with eternal salvation - to God's commands and instructions for them.

Sing F Lau
Lindsay @ also, what do you mean by suggesting that Gods children shall suffer terrible condemnation here in this life for their unbelief.suffering is no proof of sin
=====
The lives of some Corinthians saints were terminated prematurely for ...their disobedience and unbelief, handling holy things with defiled hands, profaning holy things!

God's children who take the wide gate and broad way suffer destruction in this life. God's children who takes the strait gate and narrow way lead to abundance of life here.

Paul warned the believers, "Therefore BRETHREN, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

This is no hypothetical warning: God's children who live after the flesh, ye shall die... suffer destruction here in this life.

Sing F Lau
Lindsay @what do you offer as evidence that any christian lost his life in the great tribulation of the siege of Jerusalem.the only people to suffer during that siege were unbelievers and blasphemers you might read the wars of the Jews by Josephus
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From Apostle Peter's epistle, there were already scoffers concerning the judgment coming upon Jerusalem... Apostle Peter found it necessary to warn them against such scoffers.

In Christ parables of the kingdom of heaven, we read of those who by their unbelief and negligence did not escape the destruction that came upon Jerusalem.

Patron
I agree with scriptures and Sing on gospel, but I still trying to get understanding on the 2 types of children of God:
1) just believers but with no fruit nor sanctification in process = like reformers will call it zero evidence. Christ only as savior but rejecting HIS Lordship and carry on a sinful lifestyle.
2) disciples believers that have a lifestyle of continuous repentance not perfect but are at least have goals for the Kingdom and some fruits, deeds, growing in the knowledge of the Lord, in other words and active sanctification as synergism. showing and enjoying their new nature with new heart, desires and mind of Christ ...

Ward
The ones destroyed in the siege were not believers. the herald of the gospel has no idea who the elect are. All he knows is that he is under divine compulsion to preach.some will be saved some will be hardened God will be glorified. All sinners suffer, but suffering is not an indicator of a specific sin in a believer.

I believe your main problem is that you fail to differentiate between the salvation that is by God's free grace, and the salvation that comes by your believing.

this statement is erroneous
you cant have two means of salvation, and from your context you do not seem to be referring to salvation form some temporal calamity, but from the wrath of God which will include temporal as well as eternal judgment.

It is highly unlikely that any believer was left in Jerusalem in 70ad. Most all had sold all their properties earlier and were liquid and could travel, and the Jewish persecution drove many out and far away from the city as there were several would be Saul's of tarsus,and no body wants to be a Stephen if he can help it.even the apostle peter was killed in Rome years prior to ad.70. There were scoffers about the coming tribulation on Jerusalem sense the first preaching of the gospel.the dispys still scoff today

Ward
Yoel. the regenerate person has a desire to do the things that are pleasing to God. The unbeliever has no such desire.the unbeliever may be upset because he faces the consequences of his sin but he is in no way sorry for offending a Holy God like david was .there are not two types of children of God.unless you want to consider that all are his offspring by virtue of their being created by Him.

Patron
I know Lindsey but according to Sing understanding of Scriptures he believes that regeneration does not guarantee a change of lifestyle ...Sing also belives that some saved believers just get regenerated and never show what Jeremiah spoke on God's removing a rebel heart of stone, giving us a new heart, making us love Him and his Law etc, etc

Sing F Lau
Yoel @ I agree with scriptures and Sing on gospel... but I still trying to get understanding on the 2 types of children of God:
====
I don't know where you get that 2 types of children of God from... probably you didn't understand what I have... said. There is only ONE TYPE of God's children - all born through the same DIVINE process - but each at different stage of spiritual maturity.

Consider Cornelius... he was made a child of God long before Apostle Peter was send to bring the gospel to him. When he wasn't even a believer (in the gospel, of course) he manifests much evidence of being a child of God.

I believe there are God's children like Cornelius in all the world, who fear God and work righteousness. The gospel ministry need to be brought to them... so that they may be CONVERTED to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

A child of God - as a result of divine work of effectual call out of sin and death to grace and salvation - DOES NOT carry on a sinful life style. They begin to fear God and work righteousness. But they are still ignorant of the gospel truth concerning their salvation in Jesus Christ. Regeneration brings some radical and fundamental change to a man. But without the gospel ministry he is still very ignorant of much things as a child of God.

Children of God who have been converted are in all sort of spiritual state - some robust, other mediocre, and many sick and weak. Some are soundly taught, others woolly and muddled headed! Others plainly untaught and unlearned as Apostle Peter warned!

Patron
thanks Sing...Oh I see, thats why I have seen and met a few children of God in the Jehovah witness church, Mormons and Roman Catholicism. I believe a lot of them are saved, but under serious doctrinal error .

Sing F Lau
Children of God are found in ALL SORTS of background and situation. They needed to be called out by the gospel call into the NT church. Many are not yet called by the gospel. Of the many that have heard the gospel call, they are not converted, others are converted to various degree.

The gospel is for the instruction and enlightenment of God's children... to save them from their doctrinal errors, and whole lots of other superstition and falsehood... to bring them to a knowledge of the truth of their redemption by God's free grace.

Patron
Awesome Sing! But it does not hurt to go as an evangelistic force in to the world approaching every person as a potentially child of God . I shared the seed of the word of God/Gospel of the Christ, and God decide of the growth and to make that heart/soil prepared and regenerated to respond into conversion when they hear the Gospel.

Patron
Sing what your take/understanding on the parable of the soils on Matthew 13? I heard to different camps one says two of the soils are saved, are children of God and will go to heaven.
The other camp (lordship salvation camp) says only one... the good soil , the one that became very fruitful is saved.??
I think both might be wrong and the Lord Jesus wasn't using these parable to teach on true or false saved believers. What you think Sing?

Sing F Lau
It would do a great deal of good to go wherever the Spirit of God leads an elder to preach the gospel, and gather God's children into churches. It is urgent that God's people hear and know the truth of their salvation by God's free and sovereign grace, and that they may be taught to live soberly, godly and righteously in this present world. The gospel will save God's children from much lies and falsehood, the gospel truth will set them free from superstition, give them assurance and hope and comfort, and strength etc...

But nearly all those who go forth to evangelize BELIEVE that they are helping God to produce His children, and helping God to gather souls into heaven!
Sing F Lau
Interesting question about the parable of the hearers!

Let me lay this fundamental and basic rule in interpretation: since eternal salvation is by God's free grace alone, whenever man's role or activity is involved, it CANNOT be about eternal salvation. Otherwise God's word is CONTRADICTED!

There is NOT A SINGLE INSTANT in the whole of the Scriptures where man is commanded to do something in order to save himself from the eternal misery he deserved.

Whenever men are commanded to do something to save themselves, it is often God's children being instructed to work out their own temporal salvation... work for their WELL-BEING as God's children.

The parable is about the manner the word of God is heard and received, and its corresponding effect. It SAYS NOTHING about what man must do in order to be saved - it is not a parable telling what men must do in order to be saved from their eternal condemnation.

The parable is addressed to those who have ears to hear the spiritual truth sown trough the preaching of the word. Those who have ears to hear - if taken in a wooden literal sense would apply to literally everyone except the deaf. But is that what it means? Do the spiritually dead have ears to hear spiritual things conveyed in the sowing of the word? Obviously not!

The parable is addressed to those who have ears to hear the preached word of God. The parable deal with God's children... how they should hear the word of God preached to them.

The parable informs and warns of the various types of hearers among God's children, and exhorts them to be like the good soil hearers... such that they bear fruit to the glory of God.

This parable is about the discipleship of God's children. Many of God's children are stunted because of the way they hear the preached word. The good ground hearers are those who hear and grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ

October 12 at 12:48am.

The function of the gospel ministry

Christ told Peter and the rest:
"Feed my lambs... Feed my sheep... Feed my sheep."
Yes, "Feed... Feed... Feed!" Hear that?

Isn't that a straight forward instruction...
and repeated to preempt the foolish notion
of presumptuous and giddy preachers who imagine
that they are called to assist God in birthing lambs and sheep!

How obtuse and stubborn and stiff-necked
can preachers get!

Initially posted here:
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/146302448746782

October 5 at 1:17am

"Although the gospel be the only outward means of revealing Christ and saving grace, and is, as such, abundantly sufficient thereunto; yet that men who are dead in trespasses may be born again, quickened or regenerated, there is moreover necessary an effectual insuperable work of the Holy Spirit upon the whole soul, for the producing in them a new spiritual life;(8) without which no other means will effect their conversion unto God.(9)
8. Ps 110:3; 1Co 2:14; Eph 1:19-20. 9. Jn 6:44; 2Co. 4:4,6.

Sing F Lau
The old school baptists, representing over 100 baptized congregations in England and Wales issued that statement above as part of the 1689 LBCF - chapter 20, para 4.

The new school reformed baptists, who came into being in the 1960s read what the old school particular baptists confessed and concluded that they believed and taught 'gospel regeneration' - i.e. the preaching of the gospel is the necessary instrument for the Holy Spirit to regenerate the elect. These new school RBs declare, "no preaching, no regeneration."

New school reformed baptists get their fable of gospel regeneration from thin air! They bear false witness against the old school particular baptists, claiming to be their descendants but rejecting their faithful teaching. They are not the true descendants of old school particular baptists who framed the 1689 LBCF... therefore they are illegitimate, impostors.

Lloyd
yep you must be born again ( from above and a new)

Sing F Lau
The 1689 LBCF DOES NOT advocate 'gospel regeneration.'

Just because the RBs hijacked it to teach gospel regeneration, doesn't make it teach gospel regeneration.

Simple observation makes it abundantly clear. Those early particular baptist churches, that later became known as the Primitive Baptists, that adhered to the 1689 CoF were consistently preaching and teaching Spirit Regeneration for hundreds of years.

1689 DOES NOT permit gospel regeneration. There are abundant statements that declare the contrary. I would like the RBs to show me the proof of their notion. I am rather convinced it is the RBs, who were formerly Arminians, who read the 1689 CoF with the Arminian-coloured glasses.

Sing F Lau
The new school reformed baptists are free to believe their Arminian notion of 'gospel regeneration - " i.e. the preaching of the gospel is the necessary instrument for the Holy Spirit to regenerate the elect" - but they must not be so deceitful and dishonest and shameful to claim that the old school baptists who framed the 1689 LBCF believed the same. It is a sin to bear false witness of the old school baptists.

There are more than enough clear statements in that ancient document to expose the lie and error of 'gospel regeneration'!

Lloyd
So what exactly are you saying, salvation is of the Lord and the means he uses are entirely up to him? oh ok I get it now. you must be born again (a new and from above) is what it's saying?

Sing F Lau
Lloyd @ So what exactly are you saying, salvation is of the Lord and the means he uses is entirely up to him?
======
Two issues in your question:
1. Eternal salvation (eternal in nature) by of the Lord alone, and He uses NO MEANS whatsoever. G...od purposed it, Christ accomplished it, and the Holy Spirit applied it, and the person to whom it is applied is fit for eternal glory.

2. God appointed and ordained the gospel ministry as the MEANS to save those whom He has bestowed eternal salvation.
God's children, i.e. those to whom He has bestowed eternal salvation by His free grace alone, must work out their own salvation (which is temporal in nature, i.e. pertaining to this present life only) with fear and trembling, in response to the gospel ministry.

Some of God's children have the benefit of the salvation from the gospel ministry. Others do not. Some cannot. and others incapable.

If I don't make sense, please ask.

Richardson
Turning on the light does not make things not seen in the dark to BECOME, but only makes them easier to see and more clear. The Gospel shines a light on what is already there and makes navigation easier. It is not a creative force... it is light to shine and show Who the Creator is and what he has done.

Sing F Lau
When the gospel light shine, a shadow call faith is evidence of the SOLID work of redemption within the man. The shadow called faith will never be produced without the prior work of redemption by God's free grace.

Lloyd
Ok, I understand it now. Thanks

Sing F Lau
The new school Calvinists will appeal to this part of the 1689 LBCF for their fable...

"Those whom God hath predestined unto life, He is pleased in His appointed and accepted time, effectually to call,(1) by His Word and Spirit, out of that ...state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ..."

From the words "by His Word" they conclude that their preaching is referred to and therefore is necessary for regeneration. But that idea is a big mistake and illogical and full of contradictions.

'God... by His Word and Spirit' refers to the THREE PERSONS of the Trinity in the work of calling of those predestined unto eternal life out of their state of sin and death in which they are in by nature, to grace and salvation by the redemption of Jesus Christ.

'Those whom God has predestined' refer to the COMPLETE number of God's elect.... and if the new school Calvinists insist that 'His Word' refers to their gospel ministry, this fable necessarily implies that ALL THE ELECT of God will have the gospel preached to them for their effectual calling!

This fable is repudiated by the truth stated in the third paragraph of the same chapter, which states that many of those predestined to eternal life do not have the benefit of the gospel ministry.

Their minds are so made up that they can't even notice such an obvious contradiction!

Sing F Lau
Also, the new school calvinsist are very mistaken because they equate 'effectual calling' as regeneration through the instrument of their gospel preaching.

But 1689.10 is not on regeneration... it is on effectual call out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ. To be called out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ REQUIRES Justification, Regeneration, Adoption and the bestowal of the Spirit of adoption to dwell with an elect.

Effectual call and regeneration are CLEARLY distinguished in these words in chapter 13: "They who are united to Christ, effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart and a new spirit created in them through the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection, are also farther sanctified..."

In the effectual call, an elect is DEFINITIVELY sanctified, i.e. completely and perfectly called out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation. 'Farther sanctified' requires the means of the gospel ministry.

Sing F Lau
Note the plain and concise order stated in the 1689 LBCF.
Watch carefully the theologians cum logicians at work in expressing their precise beliefs:

1689.10.1 - effectual call
"Those whom God hath predestined unto life, He is pleased in His ap...pointed and accepted time, effectually to call,(1) by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ...."

1689.11.1 - justification
"Those whom God effectually calleth, He ALSO freely justifieth..."

1689.12.1 - Adoption
"All those that are justified, God vouchsafed, in and for the sake of His only Son Jesus Christ, to make partakers of the grace of adoption,..."

In speaking of adoption, regeneration is presupposed. Regeneration must precede actual adoption.

1689.13.1 - Farther sanctification
"They who are united to Christ, effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart and a new spirit created in them through the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection, are also farther sanctified..."

Here, regeneration that was assumed is stated.

So the order is very straight forward:
In the effectual call (or definitive sanctification) there is:
- justification, the righteousness of life is APPLIED
- regeneration, warranted by the righteousness of life applied
- adoption logically follows the birth
- bestowal of the Spirit of adoption to dwell in a child of God. The indwelling Spirit works all the saving graces like faith, etc...

This enables a child of God to respond to the gospel call when it does come to him. This is the 'Farther sanctification' spoken of in chapter 13. In believing, his faith EVIDENCES, CERTIFIES, JUSTIFIES, DECLARES that he is indeed a person effectually called of God.

Justification by God at effectual calling and justification by man's faith at gospel calling are two DISTINCT and SEPARATE aspects of justification. The new school baptists are blind to this simple truth.

But the new school calvinists because of their Arminian prejudices, do not understand all these things summarized by the old school baptists! They are not the children of the old school baptists... but illegitimate!

Lloyd
so are you saying in light of that there is no need to evangelize and that the preaching of the word is for the instruction of the church only? :) or are you saying something else?

Sing F Lau
There is a great need for preaching... for the specific purpose God has ordained it... not for the purpose of man's imagination.

The preaching of the word is for the gathering of God's children into NT churches... that they may be instructed concerning the truth of their salvation by God's free grace, that they may know how to live sober, godly, and righteously as God's children.

Alan, do this exercise: Read Romans 1:1-17 real carefully.
Apostle wrote to a people he called 'saints' and 'beloved of God'. They are ALREADY 'saints' and 'beloved of God' - yet they have NOT heard the gospel, and stand in urgent need to hear the gospel of their salvation by God's free grace (which is why Apostle Paul addressed them as "saints' and 'beloved of God'.

They are 'saints' because, by God's free grace, they have been called out of their state of sin and death, in which they are y nature, to that of grace and salvation.

Food and clothing are not needed for the conception of a new life in the womb. Somehow, some people conclude from this statement that food and clothing are not needed by the newborn babe!

Lloyd
You're losing me a bit now I'm pretty simple you will have to explain it in more simple terms, please. Is there any need to evangelize even the elect because until they are revealed in Christ I don't know who they are should I be going out and compelling them to come in, to repent, and believe the gospel and the good news?

Sing F Lau
There is a great need to preach the gospel.

Preaching is the divinely appointed means to reveal and identify the children of God among the people in the whole wide world.

Faith comes by hearing. God's children (the elect whom God has regenerteda) among the hearers in the crowd, when they hear the gospel, they will believe the good news of salvation by Jesus Christ. They HAVE BEEN SAVED by the finished work of Jesus Christ, and that salvation has been applied to them personally by the Spirit of God when they were effectually called out of their state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation. That is why they are able to believe the gospel.

Of course, the gospel preachers have absolutely no idea who are God's children in the new crowd he is preaching the gospel to. But the preaching of the gospel will identify them... God's children in their midst of the crowd will manifest themselves by their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Such are to be gathered and baptized and established into a NT church.

No preacher knows who are the elect among his hearers... but he is absolutely sure and certain from Scriptures that ONLY God's children among the hearers will ever hear and respond to the preaching of the gospel.

The preaching of the gospel is NOT offering salvation. It is the height of foolishness to offer salvation to those still dead in sin and trespasses. In fact it is a cruel mockery and insult. It is no less foolish to offer salvation to God's children... the sincere offer comes TOO LATE, for God has SAVED them.

Ponder on these things... go and preach the gospel wherever the Holy Spirit leads you... the children of God out there will be brought to light through their faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Feel free to inquire further.

Sing F Lau
God's children are ALREADY out there.
Therefore your preaching DOES NOT in any way help God in producing His children, which is what the damnable lie of 'gospel regeneration' is all about!

The gospel ministry is intended for the gathering in of God's children into NT churches... it was never intended as an instrument in producing God's children (regeneration).

Lloyd 

Ok, they are already elected through God's election in eternity past, so they are already saved before they know, it's just that they have to become conformed to His image, but how do they come to the knowledge that they are elect? Because they don't know. or am I misunderstanding you?

Sing F Lau
Alan, the election took place in eternity, before time.
Election does not make a person a child of God.
Regeneration, the new birth (in distinction from the first birth by our earthly parents) makes an elect a child of God.

An elect is conceived... and born in sin, just as any other of the fallen human race, and is as much a child of wrath EVEN as others, Eph 2:3.

Before God effectually calls an elect, he was in his NATIVE state of sin and death. At God's own appointed and approved time, He effectually calls an elect out of his state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation - this requires justification, regeneration, adoption, and the bestowal of the Spirit of adoption - all these by the free and sovereign activities of God alone, WITHOUT the gospel preaching as an instrument or means.

The gospel ministry is ordained and sent to such children of God, to bring them to the knowledge of the truth of their salvation by God's free grace, instructing them to walk worthy of their calling to eternal salvation by God's free grace in Christ Jesus.

The gospel was sent to Cornelius, who was already a child of God, regenerated long before Apostle Peter came. Those devout Jews that came to Jerusalem and were converted through Peter's preaching -  they were ALREADY regenerated before they came to Jerusalem. They were God's children long before that day of Pentecost... which is why they trudged their way from long distances to Jerusalem to worship God!

See any light yet? Think outside the popular box!

Lloyd
yes now I get what you mean, but still they had to hear to understand their position in Christ yes? because as you say they were in a fallen state. But it does leave me questions about being born again consider what Peter say's in 1 Peter 1:22-23

Sing F Lau
Hearing the truth will enlighten them concerning the truth of their salvation which had already be bestowed by God's free and sovereign grace... hearing the truth is not in order to be saved by God.

After God saved them, they are NO LONGER in their fallen state, i.e. in their native state of sin and death. God has effectually called them out of that native state, to that of grace and salvation.

All gospel regenerationists appeal to that passage out of ignorance! They are guided by SOUND-BYTE, they are ignorant of the plain SENSE of the text.

I paste below what I have written to an inquirer who quoted that passage since it deals with the same matter.
======

His question: you mentioned that we are begotten of the Spirit, meaning born of the Spirit. Does it mean that the only way we are regenerated or born again is through the Spirit? Can it also be through the Word of God as mentioned in 1 Pet1:23: "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. " Is it right to conclude that the Word of God is the means for both regeneration and conversion?

My reply:
For the first question, there are several fundamental things you must bear in mind.
1. Birth or begetting always requires a PERSON, a life-giving PERSON as the active agent.
A thing cannot beget in the sense of bringing about a new life.

2. The Scriptures attribute the new birth to all the three Persons of the God-head.
- To God the Father: "John 1: 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
- To God the Son: John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
- To God the Spirit: John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

3. In many places in the Scriptures, the second PERSON of the Godhead is often designated as the Word of God.
- John 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.
- Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. [The ability to hear comes by the life-giving power of Jesus Christ].
- Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in HIS sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of HIM with whom we have to do. [It is beyond any shadow of doubt that in this passage the Word of God refers to a PERSON... Look at the personal pronouns that follow in verse 13.]
- 2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water. [compare this with John 1:2 'All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
- Re 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

It is obvious that the Word of God found in 1Pet 1:23 refers to a PERSON, and not the written word or the preached word of God. Because in the whole of the Scriptures begetting is never attributed to a thing, e.g. the preached word, or the written Scriptures.

Look at the passage carefully now:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 ¶ For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

The "word of God" under consideration is said to be incorruptible, which lives and abides forever. It is living and abiding forever. Please note also the subjects being compared. The comparison is between personal beings, between persons: all flesh and men on the one hand, and the person known as "the word of God."

Please note verse 25: three separate entities are spoken of: "the word", "the gospel" and the "preaching."

"And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" - THAT IS, by the gospel, the PERSON of the Word of God is preached unto you. 'The Word' refers to the central subject of the gospel, even Christ, the eternal Word made flesh.

The gospel is about the person designated as the "word of God" - the preaching of the gospel is about a PERSON, who is the "word of God" made flesh. " John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

In addition, the Scriptures itself testifies that the written Scriptures has been corrupted by many.
2Co 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ. The incorruptible word of God must refer to the second Person of the Trinity - he is pure and impeccable, incorruptible.

The written and preached word of God is the means appointed by God for the conversion of His children that were already born or begotten directly and immediately by the Triune God.
==========

God bless you to understand the truth stated.

Lloyd
Hi Sing, can you tell me the difference between old school particular Baptist and the old strict baptists? Also, do you believe that we should evangelize e.g. share the gospel with what is termed as the unsaved but for our purposes the elect that is still in a fallen state, and yet to come to their full saving knowledge that they are elect in Jesus Christ.

Sing F Lau
To my feeble historical understanding, old school particular baptists is a more general term embracing all those embracing the original teachings of the 1689 CoF. (Many new school baptists have corrupted them.) I have heard of the 'Strict and Particular Baptists' churches in England - a remnant of the old school particular baptists.

Alan, the gospel must be preached to all who are willing to hear... you and I don't know who are the elect among the hearers. There are elect and non-elect in any crowd. And among the elect, there are those that are regenerated and those that are not regenerated. And among the regenerated, some will believe, and some continue in their unbelief... not ready to be converted to the truth.

Some precise usage of terms will help. Let me illustrate:
- An elect must first be made a child of God by being effectually called out of his state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation...all these WITHOUT human instrumentality. These are described as devout, worshipers of God, who fear God and work righteousness. God's children need to be converted to Christ, for Christ has saved them.
- There are God's children who hear the gospel and are converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ. These are call believers, Christians. Of these some are good disciples and followers of Jesus Christ, others are poor and lousy followers.
- There are God's children who never have the capability, and or the opportunity to hear the gospel... but they are as fit for eternal glory as all others, by the free grace of God. Being without the gospel ministry they are deprived of many temporal blessings in this life.
- A good and faithful gospel ministry brings untold blessing to a child of God in this temporal life. That's the whole end of evangelism - NOT to bring sinners to heaven (God does that ALL BY HIMSELF!), but to ensure the WELL-BEING of God's children while here on earth.

Evangelism is very important. God's children, whom the Triune God has produced all by themselves through their divine effectual call, must be brought to a saving knowledge of the great work of redemption by God's grace... that they are discipled and instructed to observe all that Christ has commanded them - both doctrines and practice - to live orderly life to the glory of God.

Alan, this is a great EVANGELISM passage:
James 5: 19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Evangelism is to bring the ignorant and the erring CHILDREN of God to the truth - doctrine, and practice. Evangelism serves no other end in the purpose of God - of course, men may abuse it as a money-spinning enterprise!

Lloyd
OK, thanks, I am interested in what you are saying as I would call myself a reformed baptist of sorts, I however, try not to say I'm of this man or that man. But I guess I would agree doctrinally with Spurgeon and guy's along that line.

Sing F Lau
Spurgeon is indeed a unique man.

He had great admiration for John Gill, and considered it his great privilege to have Gill as his mentor.

And since truth is stranger than fiction, MOST if not all Reformed Baptists who admire and adore Spurgeon SLANDER and CARICATURE Gill and LOATHE him as dung!

All this reveals that Spurgeon has begun to lose grip of the truth that the old Baptists preached and believed.

I was converted in a so-called reformed Baptist church while in the University of Sydney in the early '80s but with every passing year, I saw more and more doctrinal inconsistencies of the RBs - with respect to the Scriptures, and their doctrinal standard (1689 LBCF).

People can drift away from the truth without noticing it.

Truth as an instrument to evidence the justification ALREADY applied by God's free grace has been twisted and perverted as the MEANS to secure justification before God... and folks do not even know the difference. To many, 'what is the fuss?' they retort!

Here is an example:
Supposing a man FREELY credited a $1b to your account while you were a condemned and declared bankrupt, and settled all your debt too. And he sent someone to bring the good news to you. And you believed the good news of the FREE gracious act, and by faith you went to the bank to draw on the money.

It would be SCANDALOUS and TREACHEROUS of you to claim that your believing the good news and going to the bank caused the gift to be freely credited to your account!

Yet so many insist that... they are justified by God through their faith!

And worst, they don't really care, if they can perceive the vast difference!

Lloyd
Oh well, one, I really appreciate Gill's writings, he was most insightful, and two, I believe what Eph 2 says that even faith is the FREE gift of God. But tell me what of human responsibility?
[No, the free gift is the salvation; that salvation is through the faith/fulness of Christ in His work of redeeming His people. sing]

Sing F Lau
The new school calvinists speak a whole lot about 'divine sovereignty and human responsibility' - but they are very confused on one basic point on this important matter.

It is divine sovereignty that purposed, accomplished, and applied the eternal salvation to each of God's elect at His own appointed and approved time. That is the specific realm and sphere of the divine sovereignty in context.

That specific realm and sphere of human responsibility applies to God's children alone. God holds His children (i.e. elect that are already regenerated) responsible to make use of the divinely appointed means for their spiritual well being This makes great sense!

The new school calvinists insist that the specific realm and sphere of human responsibility relate to sinners dead in trespasses and sins, that God requires such to be responsible to use the means appointed in order to obtain eternal salvation! This is not only irrational nonsense but plain error.

Vast difference, sir! Blessed is he who can differentiate the two!

Sing F Lau
Alan @ 'and two, I believe what Eph 2 says that even faith is the FREE gift of God"
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No, the free gift is the salvation; that salvation is through the faith/fulness of Christ in His work of redeeming His people. 
Alan, take a careful look at this article in Eph 2:8-9.
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2008/01/saved-by-grace-through-faith-whose.html

May our Lord grant you light! Amen