Were you a lost sheep or a goat?

A sheep... lost and all alone. Not found and gathered to the flock!

Sing F Lau
SHEEP & GOATS - There is this common and popular notion among so many Christians... that they were GOATS... and it was through the gospel ministry they were turned into SHEEP. I do wonder whether these sincere folks ever read the Bible? And when they do read, do they understand what they read, and believe what the Scriptures stated in such simple and plain term!

Sides
I was once lost now I'm found.

Sing F Lau
I wrote this note in another place on FB:
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All the elect are SHEEP... ALWAYS SHEEP... but they were lost sheep by nature. Lost sheep were NO goats!

The LOST sheep were lost in that they are cut off from God because of their sins. Jesus came to seek and save them... by His life of perfect righteousness (for justification unto life) and sacrificial death (for the remission of sins).

Jesus' life and work DID FIND and SAVE all the sheep... each and every one of them were reconciled to God - OBJECTIVELY and LEGALLY - it is FINISHED!

This OBJECTIVE and LEGAL work [of eternal salvation] is applied to each individual sheep at God's approved and appointed time... in the effectual call... when each elect is called out of his state of sin an death, in which he is by nature, to that state of grace and salvation.

Those that have been called out of their state of sin and death into the state of grace and salvation are able to respond to the gospel call... evidencing the work of God's free grace in them.

Of course very many preachers think their ministry helps to turn goats into sheep! They think and act just like the popish priests who believe by their superstitious hocus-pocus could actually turn wafer and wine into the real body and blood of Jesus Christ!
What darkness!

"I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep." Jesus gave himself for the sheep. He did not give himself for to goats , in order to turn them into sheep! That's a devil's lie.

'My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me... My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.'

What the Father gave to Christ are SHEEP, not goats! But those sheep were lost... separated from the Father because of sin...

Do people ever read, and believe what the Scriptures say so plainly??? Then why do they believe such weird notions and lies?
==========

The only biblical explanation:

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Fables are FICTIONS...

And the solution prescribed to combat this great evil?

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Too many are just preaching lies! And how many despise sound bible doctrines!

God give them over to DELUSION such that they can't differentiate a lost sheep from a goat!

Now, this is a goat. A goat always remains a goat, even if it become a 3-legged goat!

Hodges
Matthew 25:33
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Hart
Brother Sing, I do NOT think your belief is private interpretation.
Your explanations cannot be understood by lost sheep due to priestcraft deceptions.

Brother Sing, do you think Paul's epistle to the Roman Christians was about charitable giving > Romans 8:28 ?
There's a loved one who ignores verses 29 and 30 and says "dad" has a "personal feeling" and "view". Self justification is the way of lost sheep!

Hart
I have NOT observed priestcraft deceptions in any writings of Brother Sing or Daniel Hodges.
I'm troubled by my family trusting Arminian preachers and modern versions.

Hodges
Dear ones, remember that any of these modern or revised versions are really just reversed visions.

Hart
Agree!

Sides
Sing no one within the reformed camp believes they are out proclaiming the Gospel in order that God may elect them.Out of curiosity what are thoughts in regards to the preaching of George Whitefield.

Sing F Lau
Jason, if you have not come across EVERY so called reformed camp, and they are VERY diverse and many, it is logically and rationally IMPROPER to claim that 'no one within the reformed camp believes blah blah blah..." It would be more correct to say, "Of all those I have come across in the reformed camp, NO ONE... blah blah blah... " would sound more reasonable.

Also the issue is not about election... the issue is about the role of the gospel ministry in transforming GOATS into SHEEP.

Lost, and then found is so simple and plain.
Goats, then become sheep? Superstition and delusion of the worst kind!

Lost sheep were never goats. Period. The father of lies tell God's children otherwise.

Sides
Sing if the issue were not about election why then would you even mention it your feedback in response to your post seems to prove otherwise. I will hold you to the same standard since you do believe I'm wrong why not provide at least one person in any reformed camp who believes as you suggest they do? Secondly I asked about Whitefield and in other post if you ever evangelize and you seem to ignore the issue.

Sides
Richard if I may ask do you hold to what Spurgeon and Baxter taught?

Sing F Lau
Yes, I did mention about election... i.e. that the elect are referred to as sheep, even before they gospel ministry was ever brought to them. They were lost sheep, and not dead goats! That is very different from the issue you raised, I.E. election is conditioned on the proclamation of the gospel - why introduce this alien red herring into the discussion!

I will also state that I have not heard anyone from the reformed camp that believe that election is conditioned upon the gospel ministry. But I have not heard from EVERY reformed camp. I have most certainly heard some people from both the reformed AND deformed camps that insist that the gospel ministry is the instrument to turn goats into sheep! So, I won't declare like you did, "NO ONE from the reformed camp blah blah blah..."

Jason, what did I say that makes you assume that I am suggesting anything about the reformed camp?

What about the preaching of George Whitefield? Is it whether his preaching did turn goats into sheep? If that's the point, then I declare that he was most certainly deceived.

And what specifically that Spurgeon and Baxter taught that you have in mind? Be a little more specific... will help in the discussion.

Wells
Sing - Though you speak very confidently about your position, I must say that I am not so confident in your opinion. As far as I have read and studied, those who will be damned are only referred to as goats one time is scripture. One can hardly build their case on a single verse. Am I wrong on this, please enlightened me.

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
~ II Cor 5:17 So then, if one were already a sheep and he becomes a new creature, what is he?

Also, if unregenerate are already sheep, it should be very easy to spot them... after all there are visible differences between sheep and goats. There of course would be no reason to pray or preach to them for they would be found when Christ is ready. With this logic, there would be no need for evangelism. Of course if one did speak God's word, the sheep would hear, because they know the shepherd's voice... but wait... they are not yet regenerate and dead men can't hear the Gospel... so that cancels out the scripture that says my sheep hear my voice.

Hmmm... sounds awful shaky to me Sing.

Sheep that are sought and saved, and added to the flock

Sing F Lau
Wells@ "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." II Cor 5:17

So then, if one were already a sheep and he becomes a new creature, what is he?
=========
It matters very little to me whether you - for that matter, any man, great or small - are confident in anything I say. What matters to me is that I rightly divide the truth so that I not be ashamed, when shown in error by smart Brother like you! "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

I have been shown to be wrong many times before, and taught the truth. You would do me a great favor by showing me the truth. You have not.

A LOST sheep is an elect in his natural state, in the state of sin and death... a creature in his natural and old state, therefore an OLD creature. He is NOT a goat, nor a lost goat.

A lost sheep that is found PERSONALLY (as opposed to found LEGALLY in the finished work of Christ) when the redemption is applied to him in effectual calling out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation, is turned a NEW creature by the grace of God.

Isn't that a very simple answer to your rhetorical (but very misguided) question?

The UN-regenerate elect ARE sheep, but they ARE LOST - LOST - LOST sheep... in their natural state of sin and death. So, it is impossible to spot them... because the lost sheep "were by nature the children of wrath, even as other." They (UN-regenerate ELECT) are exactly like the goats in their spiritual state.

Did you notice, "EVEN AS OTHERS"?

Sing F Lau
Wells@ "Also, if unregenerate are already sheep, it should be very easy to spot them... after all there are visable differences between sheep and goats."

If you are thinking of LITERAL sheep and goats, then you are right! But if you are on that, then you and I are not communicating.

NO, NO, NO, there are NO difference between the LOST sheep (elect who are not regenerated) and goats (the rest of mankind).

There are visible and radical difference between found sheep (made new creatures through effectual by God's free grace) and goats.

Sing F Lau
Wells@ "There of course would be no reason to pray or preach to them for they would be found when Christ is ready. With this logic, there would be no need for evangelism. Of course if one did speak God's word, the sheep would hear, because they know the shepherd's voice... but wait... they are not yet regenerate and dead men can't hear the Gospel so that cancel's out the scripture that says my sheep hear my voice."

This reveals a whole loads of confusion and delusions.

First, only those sheep that are found, i.e the elect that are regenerated will ever hear and receive the preached gospel as God's power of saving them. All the others, i.e. LOST sheep, still in their state of sin and death, will not hear the gospel... the most eloquent and persuasive preaching of the gospel will come across as foolishness to them.

Second, 'my sheep hear my voice'. You are confusing the LIFE-GIVING voice of Christ in calling out those sheep dead in trespasses and sins to grace and salvation. Christ's sheep alone, those given to Christ in their lost condition - shall be summoned to life... i.e. they alone shall hear the life-giving voice of Christ. NONE others will, because the life-giving voice of Jesus Christ will not be spoken to them.

Please don't confuse the life giving voice of Christ in regeneration, and the preachers' voice as the instrument in CONVERTING God's children. Christ DOES NOT speak through preachers in quickening dead sinners.

Prayers and preaching are very important for their divinely ordained purpose... BUT most certainly not for the purpose conjured up by confused and deluded men! I don't want to repeat the same things over again. Let the wilfully ignorant be ignorant still, said the Apostle Paul.

Sides
Sing I trust you have read of Whitfields sermons so I am not being specific about a particular thought but rather what he taught in the open air as a whole.Your snide gestures against a person rather than the position held seems to put so many on the defensive.Have you written any articles on how to evangeize not just how not to if so and it is biblical would you kindly share it as it could prove to be a great benefit as we are called to redeem the time not waste it on what could be silly attempts of proclaiming the Good news.

Hart
"The Bible does not teach that belief in Christ is what saved us from hell: but rather, belief tells that we ARE saved from hell. Paul tells us that the gospel brings eternal life to light. It reveals what is already there, and it enlightens us to believe all the more." - David M.

Hart
Jason, I do NOT hold to the teachings of any man.
I am especially concerned that so many well-meaning believers align themselves with ministries named after men.

Jude 3,4 "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
For the there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lascisviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

I do believe in God's preservation of the saints. - FREE Grace
I do NOT believe in perseverance of the saints. -Works or self-justification.
Intrinsic faith is God's free gift.
Gospel faith is man's exercise of the gift, gospel obedience.
The Law only informs us of sins, but cannot eternally save us.
I believe in eternal salvation and time salvations contingent upon obeying and honoring our LORD.

Sing F Lau
Brother Jason, I have read lots of Whitefield's sermons, and his massive biography by Arnold Dallimore - that was in the early 80s.

The issue at hand is not to preach or not to preach. Preaching is ordained and commanded by Christ. So, it much be obeyed.

The issue is, what is the function and purpose for which the preaching ministry is ordained.

So much have been written on HOW to evangelize...

If you want to read some thoughts on WHY evangelize, read some thoughts in "Pruning Seven Deformed Branches" book, posted here: http://pruning-deformed-branches.blogspot.com/

Sing F Lau
Richard @ "I am especially concerned that so many well-meaning believers align themselves with ministries named after men."

This is the nauseating thing I see... so many 'friends' on Facebook quoting MEN, o yes, famous men, men with great names, puritans, reformers, ec., etc. ... and so many 'liking' the quotes even though there is much errors in the quote.

Few people quoting Scriptures, and promoting to study the Scriptures.

The days Apostle Paul warned have come...
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Sing F Lau
Wells@ "As far as I have read and studied, those who will be damned are only referred to as goats one time is scripture."
=======

But you choose to ignore the MANY occasions that the elect are called sheep, and they are lost sheep, and Jesus was sent to seek them and to save them, and not any others.

It is sufficient that the Scriptures give mention of the goats once. Any more than that would be more than is necessary, and a waste of precious space! The focus of the Scriptures is upon the sheep, those whom God gave to Christ, and for whom Christ came to seek and save; instead of the goats.

The damned are referred as goats... that plain and simple. There is no for repetition.

Those that God glorified are the ELECT, and the ELECT alone.

Romans 8:
29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

AS MANY AS - not one more, and not one less!

John 17:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Sing F Lau
Don't waste time with goats.
Christ is a SHEPherd... He ain't no GOATherd at all.
Only goatherd hirelings want to win goats!

Take a look here: http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2008/02/feeding-sheep-or-entertaining-goats.html

What about Eternal Justification?

Eternal, Legal, Vital, Practical, Final - do these terms make sense to you?

Initially posted here:
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/114493525256359

Please read these words by the Old School Baptists carefully and slowly,

"God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification; nevertheless, they are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them." 1689.11.4 BCF.

All quite plain and simple, aren't they? Only if your mind has not been poisoned by lies!

However the New School Baptists are not only ignorant of the plain gospel truth summarized, but they in their haughtiness also misrepresent the old fathers and accuse and attribute falsehoods to these framers.

One common and popular example is their dismissal and condemnation of the teaching on 'eternal justification' by these Old School Baptists.

1689.11.4 read these words carefully and slowly, and catch the plain and obvious sense.

"God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, (11) and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification;(12) nevertheless, they are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them. (13)"

The ETERNAL justification the Old School Baptists speaks of is exactly what the Framers spoke of: "God DID from all eternity decree to justify all the elect."

There is a true sense in which ALL the elect was ACTUALLY justified in eternity - but in the DECRETAL sense, in plain distinction to the LEGAL and PERSONAL and EVIDENTIAL senses dealt with in the other parts of the same chapter!

Many ignoramus reformed (new school baptists) people just dismiss this aspect of justification... and worse still, in their willful ignorance, they accuse and attribute to the Old School Baptists WILD falsehoods - exposing their own ignorance and shallowness. They accuse the Old School Baptists of believing that the elect were actually LEGALLY and PERSONALLY justified by God in eternity!

These are guilty of bearing false witness! They are LIARS, and TWISTED the plain words of the framers! And they have the cheek to claim themselves descendants of the Old School Baptists. They are more like illegitimate step-children from somewhere!

Then there is the EXECUTION of that decree: "Christ DID in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification." There is a true sense in which all the elect was ACTUALLY justified at the cross - but ONLY in the LEGAL sense. All the sins of God's elect were legally IMPUTED to Christ, and Christ's righteousness legally IMPUTED to them at the cross.

LEGAL Condemnation of all in Adam ACTUALLY took place in the garden. LEGAL Justification of all in Christ ACTUALLY took place at the cross. Christ DID - DID - DID die and rise again for the LEGAL justification of all the elect.

What was DECREED and ACCOMPLISHED is then APPLIED to each elect personally. UNTIL - UNTIL - UNTIL then, an elect is not PERSONALLY justified - "they are not justified PERSONALLY, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them" - EVEN though they are LEGALLY justified ALREADY.

The crucial word 'personally' is not in the WCF, but is in the superior 1689 BCF, further elucidating the sense stated.

"They are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them" - most certainly PRESUPPOSES that they are ALREADY justified DECRETALLY as well as LEGALLY, BUT not personally YET.

And it is ONLY - ONLY - ONLY when they are actually justified personally, when the Holy Spirit does, in God's approved and appointed time, actually apply Christ unto them, at effectual calling out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation, THAT they are justified, in the ACTUAL PERSONAL SENSE.

Then and only then are they EN-abled to respond to the gospel call, to believe in Jesus Christ.

Believing in Jesus Christ is the INSTRUMENT to evidence, manifest, and demonstrate their JUSTIFIED STATE by the free grace of God. It is NOT - NOT - NOT the instrument to secure PERSONAL justification. It is the instrument to EVIDENCE, MANIFEST, PROVE, VINDICATE, TESTIFY, etc... that the personal justification has taken place by God's free grace.

This is so straightforward that an unprejudiced and unpoisoned mind can understand so easily!

"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."

- Leo Tolstoy –

Experiential Justification by Faith in Christ

1689.11.2. Faith thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification;(6) yet it is not alone in the person justified, but ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love.(7)

Some very obvious implications:

1. "Faith is not alone in the person justified..." Therefore, faith is one of the many saving graces that are found in the person whom the Holy Spirit has applied the justification personally.

Is it not simple and plain enough to say that the product and effect of justification CANNOT possibly be the instrument to secure that same justification at the same time?

Is it not simple and plain enough to say that the product and effect of justification is the instrument or means to MAKE MANIFEST the justification that has taken place by God's free grace? The effect is EVIDENCE of the CAUSE; The effect is not the instrument to secure the cause!

2. Faith and works ARE BOTH saving graces produced when justification is applied personally by the Holy Spirit. Both faith and works EVIDENCE and VINDICATE the justified state by God's free grace. Faith and works justify the justified state by the free grace of God.

3. Receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness is ONLY possible WHEN the Holy Spirit has APPLIED the justification to an elect personally. Application of the justification by the Holy Spirit must precede the experience of receiving and resting in Christ and His righteousness.

That is why the Old School Baptists declared this:

"The reason why any are justified IS NOT because they have faith; but the reason why they have faith IS because they are justified." 

All new school baptists reject this obvious truth... betraying their true character as step-children... and not true descendants of the Old School Baptist

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Comments

Jason

Sing, in your opinion, was Spurgeon a new school or old school Baptist?

Sing

The answer to your question is, I don't know. And it doesn't matter to me. Probably neither... but somewhere in between. He was morphing... and beginning to lose grip with some of the truths clearly embraced by the old fathers. That's why Spurgeon is loved and quoted by New School Baptists all the time.

Andrew Fuller is loved by New School Baptists, but he was a 'heretic' to the Old School Baptists of his time, for his serious deviation from the gospel truth.

I used to read lots of Spurgeon (got lots of his sermons, writings, etc). It was the little book 'The Forgotten Spurgeon' by Iain Murray that was instrumental in introducing the doctrine of grace to me. But I found that Gill is far closer to the faith expressed by the old fathers.

But Gill, who was universally loved and respected by the theologians of various denominations of his days, is now despised and maligned by the new school baptists. That's despite the fact that Spurgeon spoke so highly of Gill, owning him as his mentor.

Spurgeon recorded these words in his autobiography: "My eminent predecessor, Dr. Gill, was told by a certain member of His congregation who ought to know better, that if he should publish his book 'The Cause of God and Truth,' he would lose some of his best friends, and that his income would fall off. The old doctor said, 'I can afford to be poor, but I cannot afford to injure my conscience,' and he has left his mantle as well as his chair in our vestry."

Augustus Toplady, a no mean Anglican theologian himself, testified of his Old Baptist mentor, “Perhaps, no man, since the days of St. Austin, has written so largely, in defence of the system of Grace; and, certainly, no man has treated that momentous subject, in all its branches, more closely, judiciously, and successfully.”

“John Gill, a Baptist puritan pastor who writes a thorough defense of Calvinistic theology.” Dr Robert L. Reymond – reformed Presbyterian, Professor of Systematic Theology, and author of “A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith.”

Time has changed indeed, don't you think???

People who claim that they hold to the truth summarized in the 1689 CoF show themselves so different in some major doctrines... the new school has departed from the old path trodden by the old fathers.

Jason

Sing I agree with John Gill you might say as a whole however cannot say I agree with every point or at least as I understand him to be saying. A clarification or at least a question I might ask others in defence of eternal justification is, "When did Christ atone for their sin once they exercised faith in Christ or when Christ was on the cross before they were born?" I think the latter would be obvious. I do not disagree with your commentary on Eph 2:8-9; however, I believe not only is Grace a gift and we are saved by grace through the faithfulness of Christ, but to even believe that requires faith, which also is a gift. Btw off the subject if I may inquire what eschatological position do you hold.

Sing
"When did Christ atone for their sin once they exercised faith in Christ or When Christ was on the cross before they were born?"

This is a very good question... and you will answer this question rightly if you understand the fundamental difference between LEGAL ATONEMENT and EXPERIENTIAL ATONEMENT.

Atonement took place when Christ died on the cross. At the cross, ALL the sins of ALL those given to Him by God were LEGALLY imputed to Christ, and Jesus Christ suffered fully in their place. Any sin that was not imputed to Christ when He died on the cross WOULD NEVER be atoned for... PERIOD.

You may ask, how is that possible? I was not even born, nor have I committed any sin. It is perfectly possible because imputation is a legal transaction, and does not need the personal existence of the persons involved. Though you were not yet born, yet you are already a legal entity... your name is ALREADY in the Book of Life of the Lamb of God.

That LEGAL ATONEMENT on the cross is APPLIED to you PERSONALLY when God called you out of your state of sin and death, in which you are in by nature, to that of grace and salvation. This enabled you to believe and respond to the gospel ministry...

It is in believing that you actually EXPERIENCE your sins ATONED for.

The atonement of our sins REQUIRE just suffering for those sins... and that TOOK PLACE only once at the cross. There is NO OTHER point in time in which the atonement of our sins took place, but at the cross.

So, what is obvious to you is obviously a misunderstanding of the issue involved.

Jason

Two additional questions in light of Justification: Do you believe in imputed righteousness? Do you believe Christ always sanctifies those for whom he justifies, at least to some degree?

Sing 

Adam's sin was legally imputed to all when he sinned in the garden. That legally imputed sin is APPLIED PERSONALLY, i.e., becomes operative and vital at conception. What is applied then becomes manifested in sinful thoughts and actions.

Yes, I do believe in IMPUTED righteousness. It is at the very heart of the gospel... I also believe in APPLIED righteousness (imputed righteousness is applied personally, otherwise it is just a legal fact), and MANIFESTED righteousness.

EVEN SO... EVEN SO... EVEN SO...

Christ's righteousness was LEGALLY IMPUTED to all the elect at the cross. Christ's righteousness is APPLIED PERSONALLY to each elect at his effectual calling out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation.

This effectual call brings about the DEFINITIVE SANCTIFICATION - a once-for-all, unrepeatable, complete and perfect separation from the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation. This aspect of sanctification is EXACTLY the same in nature and degree in every elect.

With this sanctification, there is also the ON-GOING sanctification... made possible because of the indwelling Holy Spirit working all the graces within the heart of a child of God. This ENSURES that God's children are always sanctified to some degree.

The degree of this aspect of sanctification is dependent upon many factors... the availability of the ministry of the word, pastoral oversight, Christian fellowship, obedience, etc.

The gospel ministry and the NT church life are most vital elements for the ongoing sanctification of God's children.

Make sense?

Jason

Gotcha, thanks, Brother.

Water Baptism of Sister Sophia

Brother Steve Chong and his wife Sister Sophia Kong, with Sarah in her arm, and Seth

"... in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit..."

Buried with Christ...

And risen with Christ!

On the Lord's Day of April 11th, Pastor Lau baptized Sister Sophia. The church gathered for morning worship service at 9.30am. This was followed by the fellowship lunch. After the lunch, we left for Brother Boey's apartment to administer the water baptism there. There is a lovely swimming pool. It was a glorious day for water baptism... complete blue sky and bright dazzling sun rejoicing with us for the occasion.

Brother Steve and his family began attending the church at the beginning of the year. They moved to Penang because there is a church that they can identify with. Bless the Lord! Along the way, they heard a sermon on water baptism as well as church membership in a series of sermons on the 'doctrine of the local church.' Their tender hearts were convicted to do what the Lord has shown to them. They spoke to the pastor about their desire to submit to the baptism and be united with the church.

So, we were gathered at the pool to baptize Sister Sophia on that Lord's day afternoon. We sang some hymns, Pastor Lau reminded the church gathered at the poolside the importance of water baptism. It was a blessed occasion to observe this command of our Lord.

The church gathered for the evening service at 8pm, followed by the Lord's Supper. Before the Lord's Supper was taken, Sister Sophia and Brother Steve were extended the right hand of fellowship and received into membership. The church read together the Members' Covenant, to remind ourselves of the privileges and the responsibilities of membership with the church.

The Lord's Supper was observed with special joy and thankfulness unto the Lord for adding two precious saints to the church. It was a blessed Lord's Day!

"Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen."

A Messed Up Order of Salvation of the Calvinists

Is there an order here?

Danmac:
Westminster Shorter Catechism: Question 89. How is the word made effectual to salvation? Answer: The Spirit of God maketh the reading, but especially the preaching of the word, an effectual means of convincing and converting sinners, and of BUILDING THEM UP IN HOLINESS and comfort, through faith, unto salvation

Sing F Lau
Be careful to distinguish the salvation that is ETERNAL in nature, and the salvation that is TEMPORAL in nature.

The former is by FREE GRACE of God alone, worked out completely and fully by the Triune God himself. It is purposed, accomplished, and applied fully and completely to individual elect by God's free grace.

The latter is worked out by God's children in obedient response to the grace of God working in them. Temporal salvation, that which relates to the life here and now, is CONDITIONED upon the obedience of God's children to the working of God in them. ... See More

Without making this careful distinction, one will never rightly divide the word of truth concerning salvation.

One salvation, God alone HAS worked for us - by FREE GRACE.

Another salvation, we must work out for ourselves - by our obedient to Father's will for us.

Without this distinction, most people's "by grace alone" is just a meaningless religious slogan...

Joel
The Westminster divines could not have stated it any better. The conversion (regeneration) of sinners is first in priority and the building up in holiness (sanctification) only comes in second. In emphasizing holiness or sanctification, let us never forget that true holiness is the product of life in the Spirit.

Danmac
@Joel: Amen!

Sing F Lau
Joel@: regeneration and conversion are distinct and vastly difference. The former is bringing the dead to life. The latter is turning the living from error to the truth, from unrighteousness to godliness.

Regeneration is DEFINITIVE sanctification, once for all, complete, unrepeatable; turning from sin and death to grace and salvation - all by the FREE grace activity of God. FREE means free, man meeting no condition, nor contribute or aid in any sense.

Conversion is PROGRESSIVE sanctification. ongoing throughout the life of a child of God, turning from ignorance of the truth of salvation to truth through the ministry of reproof and correction, and training in righteousness - turning from ungodliness to holiness through the gospel ministry.

Amen and amen - "true holiness is the product of life in the Spirit."

Wayne
Amen brother Sing!

Joel
"First, then, let us meditate a while upon THE NECESSITY OF CONVERSION. If a man is to be saved, he must turn from his sins. "Right about face!" is the marching order for every sinner. There is no hope of forgiveness for him if he will continue with his face as it now is. He must turn from his sin if he would be saved."-C.H. Spurgeon

@Sing: Progressive Sanctification is not conversion. It is true that Definite sanctification takes place during Regeneration but they are not one and the same. Conversion is the direct effect of Regeneration. In the Ordo Salutis, Conversion logically takes place right after Regeneration but that is logical priority and should not be understood chronologically. Whenever there is regeneration then conversion takes place.

Joel
To those confused individuals who presume to teach others on Ordo Salutis, here is a helpful guide for you:
1) election
2) predestination
3) gospel call (general outward call)
4) inward call (effectual calling)
5) regeneration
6) conversion (faith & repentance)
7) justification & adoption
8) sanctification (progressive)
9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)

check the following link for more info:
http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Ordo-Salutis/

Tom
Meaningless Sing? Really?

Sing F Lau
All the Arminians ALSO shout 'salvation by grace ALONE' too, with great emphasis on 'alone'. More than meaningless, it is deceitful and irrational... since man's part play the definitive and crucial role. Many Calvinists' idea not much different... man's role is crucial too...

Sing F Lau
When thinking of the Order of Salvation, it is helpful to separate the various phases/facets in the order into their DISTINCT and LOGICAL phases/facets.

They are, in NUMBER (five of them) and ORDER, these:
- Redemption purposed...
- Redemption accomplished...
- Redemption applied...
- Redemption experienced/evidenced......
- Redemption consummated...

Distinction is the essence of sound theology.

Sing F Lau
In the redemption applied phase, we have:
- justification FREELY by the grace of God
- regeneration FREELY by the grace of God
- adoption FREELY by the grace of God
- gift of the Spirit of adoption FREELY by the grace of God.

[FREELY means without any condition on man's part. He could not meet any condition even if there were any!]

These free and gracious activities of God enable a child of God to respond to the gospel ministry, leading to the redemption EXPERIENCED phase:
- gospel call through the gospel ministry
- INITIAL conversion
- justification by faith (faith evidences the justified state of the believer. The just (justified ones) shall live by faith. IT IS NOT, by faith the condemned unjustified one shall be justified and live... that is how most people understand 'the just shall live by faith.
- Faith justifies a believer that He is a child of God, possession eternal life.
- ONGOING conversion throughout life...

Only in the redemption EXPERIENCED phases are human responses involved. In this phase, there is SYNERGISM.

Sing F Lau
Joel's so-called Order of Salvation:
1) election
2) predestination
3) gospel call (general outward call)
4) inward call (effectual calling)
5) regeneration
6) conversion (faith & repentance)
7) justification & adoption
8) sanctification (progressive)
9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)
=============

Look at this order for a moment.
This order is teaching that an unjustified man, therefore STILL under the just and righteous condemnation of death is able to respond to the gospel call, in order to get regenerated, able to repent and believe, and then get justified by his believing.

No problem, you can have this, and teach it too.

Sing F Lau
I suggest this order for those who are willing to learn something. It is not for those who have no more room to learn.

- Redemption purposed...
Under this phase you have foreknowledge, predestination, election, etc. All these happened before time.

- Redemption accomplished...
Under this phase, Christ LEGALLY redeemed His people... legal justification by the blood of Christ, righteousness imputed, legal reconciliation,legal adoption, etc. All these happened at the cross. EVEN so, the condemnation took place in the fall of Adam.
- Redemption applied...
Under this phase, what is legal is now made PERSONAL to the individual elect... righteousness APPLIED personally to an individual, justification by the grace of God, removal of condemnation is accompanied with regeneration unto eternal life, personal adoption into the family of God, etc.

- Redemption experienced/evidenced......
Under this phase, the redemption that has been applied is experienced personally. Through the gospel ministry, we are informed of our salvation by God's free grace, we believe and experienced the blessedness of our salvation, see Gen 15:1-6. By faith, Abraham experienced the blessedness of his salvation by God's grace!

Our walking in righteousness evidences or gives proof to others around us of our redemption by the free grace of God.

- Redemption consummated...

Sing F Lau
Joel said "@Sing: ... Progressive Sanctification is not conversion."

I wrote: Conversion is PROGRESSIVE sanctification. ongoing throughout the life of a child of God, turning from ignorance to truth through reproof and correction, and training in righteousness - turning from ungodliness to holiness through the gospel ministry.

CONVERSION (initial faith in Jesus Christ) is the first and initial part of PROGRESSIVE sanctification, and there is conversion from error and sins throughout our whole life, until you and I enter our coffins!

Of course 'progressive sanctification is not conversion,' (just like we say. 'Texas is not USA') because conversion is only the INITIAL part of the progressive sanctification.

Distinction is the essence of sound theology. Otherwise it is Muddled Theology... like saying an unjustified man, therefore still under the condemnation of death, is able to believe in order to be justified by God.

Sing F Lau
1689.13.1 on 'Of Sanctification' states:
======
They who are united to Christ, effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart and a new spirit created in them through the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection, ARE ALSO FARTHER SANCTIFIED, really and personally(1) through the same virtue, by His Word and Spirit dwelling in them;(2) the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed,(3) and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified,(4) and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces,(5) to the practice of all true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.(6)
=======

FARTHER SANCTIFICATION presupposes the DEFINITIVE sanctification, i.e. separated out of the condemned, dead and alienated state THROUGH justification, regeneration, and adoption - the once for all, complete and perfect and unrepeatable FREE GRACE acts of God in the effectual call - out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation, by the FREE GRACE of God, i.e. man playing absolutely NO, ZERO, role.

'ALSO' means in addition to the definitive sanctification, there is this FARTHER sanctification through the gospel ministry... that brings about the initial conversion to Christ, and thereafter a whole life of conversion from falsehood and lies and sins to truth and righteousness and godliness.

Sing F Lau
Joel @ Progressive Sanctification is not conversion. It is true that Definite sanctification takes place during Regeneration but they are not one and the same. Conversion is the direct effect of Regeneration. In the Ordo Salutis, Conversion logically takes place right after Regeneration but that is logical priority and should not be understood chronologically. Whenever there is regeneration then conversion takes place.
=============

Few OBVIOUS errors here:
1. Progressive sanctification is conversion, since conversion is a lifelong process beginning with the initial conversion to Christ through the gospel ministry, and goes on till the last breath of a child of God. No conversion, not ongoing sanctification!

2. Definitive sanctification does not take place during regeneration.
Regeneration takes place at definitive sanctification. Regeneration is ONE PART of the definitive sanctification by God's free grace, God's act of calling an elect who is condemned dead and alienated to that of grace and salvation. Calling one that is condemned, dead and alienated to that of grace and salvation necessarily requires JUSTIFICATION, REGENERATION, and ADOPTION.

3. "Conversion logically takes place right after Regeneration". Wrong.
Conversion takes place after regeneration - that is the correct chronological order. BUT it is PLAIN WRONG to say that conversion takes place RIGHT AFTER regeneration. Look at Cornelius. His conversion took place after the gospel ministered by Peter. But Cornelius was obviously regenerated long before Peter came to the scene. His devout life of prayers and works of righteousness, and acceptance with God, are indisputable evidences that Cornelius was regenerated long before, not just right before his conversion!

4. "Whenever there is regeneration then conversion takes place." Plain wrong too.
Some regeneration is never accompanied by conversion through the gospel ministry. Some of God's children are incapable of being reached by the gospel ministry.

SO ALSO there are God's justified people who are incapable of being reached with the gospel, and therefore not justified by their faith. But every one is justified by the free grace of God in effectual calling. This alone ensures that the promised salvation is SURE to every elect.

THREE obvious errors in one short paragraph...
PHEW! And you are a Calvinistic teacher in Israel!
I tremble!

'Go and Preach' - but why? what is the work?

To feed the living chick or to bring the dead pup to life?
Your gospel ministry: is it appointed to nourish the living,
or bringing the dead to life?

aWells quoted:
"But we are so gentle and quiet, we do not use strong language about other people’s opinions; but let men go to hell out of charity to them. We are not at all fanatical... We would not wish to save any sinner who does not particularly wish to be saved. If persons choose to attend our ministry, we shall be pleased to say a word to them in a mild way, but we do not speak with tears streaming down our cheeks, groaning and agonising with God for them; neither would we thrust our opinions upon them, though we know they are being lost for want of the knowledge of Christ crucified." C.H Spurgeon

Sing F Lau
Man can do nothing to save a man from hell UNLESS God Himself has first saved him.

God ALONE saves ETERNALLY, i.e. He purposed, accomplished, and applied eternal redemption to each of His elect, all by His FREE and SOVEREIGN grace.

Only such can be saved through the gospel ministry faithfully administered by man. The gospel ministry brings TEMPORAL salvation, i.e. deliverance that pertains to the life here and now. TEMPORAL salvation is something God's children (i.e. those whom God has bestowed eternal salvation, freely by His grace) must work out for themselves with fear and trembling.

Our spiritual BEING is all by the FREE grace of God. While we were under condemnation, dead and alienated, God freely justified, regenerated, and adopted us, giving us the gift of His Spirit to dwell in our hearts. The gospel ministry is relevant to, and intended for, such ALONE ONLY, and no one else. Food is relevant to, and intended for, the living ONLY.

Our spiritual WELL BEING is conditioned upon our obedient response to the will of our Father.

If we fail to distinguish the UNconditional salvation by free grace, and the conditional salvation by our obedience, then we have fail to rightly divide the word of truth, and end up with much confusion... mixing grace and works... deny monergism, and embracing synergism.

aWells
Sing - I am not sure of your point. I have had this conversation with you before and no one will disagree that God saves and man is helpless to save himself. However, a man is deceived who thinks that God does not use means. Jesus did not tell his disciples to sit and home and that he would send the sheep to them. They were commanded to GO and PREACH!

Sing F Lau
Adam, you still DON'T get the VERY SIMPLE and BASIC point.

God DOES use means. So, yes, a man who thinks that I deny God uses means is very obtuse indeed!

There is a eternal salvation (pertaining to being a child of God) that God DOES NOT use means, and there is a temporal salvation (pertaining to the life here and now, the well being of God's children) that God had not only ordained means but also commanded that those means be used!

GO and PREACH: but why go and preach, and to whom? Go and preach because these are means that will bring the condemned dead alien to eternal life, or go and preach because there are those whom God has effectually called to grace and salvation out there? Go and preach to whom - to those still dead in sins and trespasses that they may be brought to life, or to those whom God, by Himself, has effectually called out of the state of sins and death to that of grace and salvation?

The early particular baptists - the predecessors of C H Spurgeon like Benjamin Keach and John Gill, and host of others - were all very clear on the distinction between the two distinct salvation spoken of in the Bible. Those who came later became confused, and eventually rejected it entirely, thus ending up with the necessary SYNERGISTIC understanding of salvation.

Food and drink are very good. Have you ever try to feed and nourish a dead man so that he become alive? Many preachers sincerely believe that's what they are doing through the means of their gospel ministry - that they have God's appointed means to bring DEAD CONDEMNED ALIEN sinners to eternal life!

The apostles most certainly didn't believe so!

I think it is a great delight to have the means to feed a thirsty and hungry man... BUT only a LIVING man, made alive by the FREE and sovereign grace of God, can be a hungry and thirsty man! I have never met a physically dead man who can be thirsty and hungry! Those dead in sins an trespasses are adversed to spiritual things.

Get the point?

The gospel is spiritual milk and meat for the nourishment of God's children. It is NOT the means to bring eternal life to dead sinners! God DOES NOT need those means to give eternal life to the dead and condemned sinners.

I thought this is so simple. Children in my church can understand this. Goes to show the truth of this statement: "The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him." - Leo Tolstoy –

aWells
I have asked you before, what about the heathen in the Amazon rainforest or elsewhere? Your response is that the heathen would be eternally saved regardless of whether they ever had the gospel witness. You said that the only effect that the Gospel would have on them is in a temporal salvation. Did you or did you not say that?

Sing F Lau
Adam, any of God's elect [SIC] among the heathen in the Amazon or NY City or KL, He himself, at His approved and appointed time, shall effectually call out of their state of sin and death, which they are in by nature, to that of grace and salvation - by justifying them regenerating them, adopting them, and giving them the gift of His Spirit to dwell in them. This is eternal salvation by God's FREE - FREE - FREE grace - without any human means or instrumentality.

Salvation by God's FREE grace is the ONE and ONLY way to ensure that "to the end the promise [of eternal salvation] might be sure to ALL the seed" (Rm 4:16).

If you put means and instrumentality into the equation for the eternal salvation of God's elect, you necessarily introduce a human element that undermines the CERTAINTY of eternal salvation, that would exclude many elect who did not have the means brought to them, and those elect incapable of being reached with the means.

It is a fact that the gospel ministry DID NOT reach many tribes and tongues and nations and people... YET as many of the ELECT people from among them are found in heaven.

Re 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Yes, I did say that, and I repeat it here so that there is absolutely no doubt. I did say that - you read me well. The gospel ministry is ordained and is instrumental for the instruction and edification of God's children for their TEMPORAL salvation here on earth, as they make their journey through this world to their eternal inheritance., bestowed upon them by God's FREE and sovereign grace.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

Read the above passage CAREFULLY. What is the Scriptures, of which the gospel message is a part of, profitable for? Does it have anything to do with imparting eternal life to the condemned dead man? Or it is wholly for the sanctification of a child of God? Do you use the means to furnish a dead man for good works, or do you use it to furnish a child of God for good works, to live soberly, righteously and godly?

Is the means for making a child of God MORE FIT for heaven, i.e. more saved for heaven, OR is it for his instruction and training so that he may save himself from the perverse and wicked generation in which he lives?

Or is it for the INSTRUCTION in BOTH doctrine and righteousness (practical godliness), and for reproof and correction of the LIVING...

Keep speaking, and move on.

aWells
1After these things the LORD appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, where he himself would come. 2 Therefore said he to them, The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few: pray you therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth laborers into his harvest. 3 Go your ways.behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves. 4 Carry neither purse, nor money, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way. 5 And into whatever house you enter, first say, Peace be to this house. 6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest on it: if not, it shall turn to you again. 7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the laborer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house. 8 And into whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you: 9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say to them, The kingdom of God is come near to you. 10 But into whatever city you enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say, 11 Even the very dust of your city, which sticks on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be you sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come near to you. 12 But I say to you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city. Luke 10:1-12

Jesus said say "the kingdom of God is come near to you." That if they reject the messengers with this message, it would be more bearable for Sodom on that day. Does this not mean that they were preaching to those who reject?

Sing F Lau
What is the point of your last rhetorical question? Are you implying that I am saying that the gospel is to be preached to those only who will receive the gospel? And how is that ever to be possible UNLESS you have the omniscience to know exactly those who have been made spiritually alive from those who remain spiritually dead? Even then, if you can distinguish those spiritually alive from those still spiritually dead, it just proves that your preaching has nothing to do with their being spiritually alive!

The gospel is to be preached to all in the audience. But only those who ARE SAVED (have been justified, regenerated, adopted, and indwelt by the Holy Spirit) will ever hear and believe the good news... BECAUSE the good news is ALREADY true of them.

Hey, 'ching beng' is here. Ah Wong brought some wholesome nutritious food to the cemetery... and calls out loud the good news that Mr Wells has given him some wholesome nutritious food and sent him out to announce the good news. Unto whom do you intend to send those wholesome and nutritious food through Ah Wong - those who are still DEAD in the graves (like many superstitious and deceived ancestor worshipers are doing) or do you have in mind specifically those that have been made alive supernaturally by Mr Wells from among the dead, and are capable of benefiting and profiting from the good food?

Or did you actually send Ah Wong with the intention that Ah Wong uses those food as instrument to raise the dead from their grave?

Sing F Lau
Adam@ 2 Therefore said he to them, The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few: pray you therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth laborers into his harvest."

May I ask, and you please consider this simple question: what part did those laborers have to do in the production of the Lord's harvest? Isn't true that His harvest is ALREADY there... all ready to be gathered in, and the laborers are sent out to gather them into the NT church, into the safety of the barn here on earth. God's free grace alone has perfectly fitted them for heaven, and eternal glory.

Of course VERY MANY deluded preachers so sincerely believe that they are sent to gather souls into heaven!

Does this simple fact ever cross your mind?

The laborers are involved in the IN-GATHERING of the ALREADY EXISTING harvest. They play no part whatsoever in the PRODUCTION of the harvest.

This is so simple and obvious that I fear insulting a clever American! Insult is furthest from my mind. Enlightening and leading you to the simple truth is.

Children in my church do understand this pretty well. Many doctors of theology don't. Much easier to teach un-poisoned mind these self-evident truth.

Keep speaking!

Sing F Lau
Adam@ "6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest on it: if not, it shall turn to you again."

Who is there first - the son of peace, or your coming with the gospel? Did God produce the son of peace first before you came to the scene, and sent you to bring the glad tidings to such, or did your bringing of the glad tidings to the son of enmity became the instrument to turn that son of enmity into a son of peace?

Do you ever study and ask simple questions like these? Do people ever read and study the Bible, and let the Bible tell us what it says, or do we just make the Bible to say what we want ANY WAY?