To feed the living chick or to bring the dead pup to life?Your gospel ministry: is it appointed to nourish the living,
or bringing the dead to life?
aWells quoted:
"But we are so gentle and quiet, we do not use strong language about other people’s opinions; but let men go to hell out of charity to them. We are not at all fanatical... We would not wish to save any sinner who does not particularly wish to be saved. If persons choose to attend our ministry, we shall be pleased to say a word to them in a mild way, but we do not speak with tears streaming down our cheeks, groaning and agonising with God for them; neither would we thrust our opinions upon them, though we know they are being lost for want of the knowledge of Christ crucified." C.H Spurgeon
Sing F Lau
Man can do nothing to save a man from hell UNLESS God Himself has first saved him.
God ALONE saves ETERNALLY, i.e. He purposed, accomplished, and applied eternal redemption to each of His elect, all by His FREE and SOVEREIGN grace.
Only such can be saved through the gospel ministry faithfully administered by man. The gospel ministry brings TEMPORAL salvation, i.e. deliverance that pertains to the life here and now. TEMPORAL salvation is something God's children (i.e. those whom God has bestowed eternal salvation, freely by His grace) must work out for themselves with fear and trembling.
Our spiritual BEING is all by the FREE grace of God. While we were under condemnation, dead and alienated, God freely justified, regenerated, and adopted us, giving us the gift of His Spirit to dwell in our hearts. The gospel ministry is relevant to, and intended for, such ALONE ONLY, and no one else. Food is relevant to, and intended for, the living ONLY.
Our spiritual WELL BEING is conditioned upon our obedient response to the will of our Father.
If we fail to distinguish the UNconditional salvation by free grace, and the conditional salvation by our obedience, then we have fail to rightly divide the word of truth, and end up with much confusion... mixing grace and works... deny monergism, and embracing synergism.
aWells
Sing - I am not sure of your point. I have had this conversation with you before and no one will disagree that God saves and man is helpless to save himself. However, a man is deceived who thinks that God does not use means. Jesus did not tell his disciples to sit and home and that he would send the sheep to them. They were commanded to GO and PREACH!
Sing F Lau
Adam, you still DON'T get the VERY SIMPLE and BASIC point.
God DOES use means. So, yes, a man who thinks that I deny God uses means is very obtuse indeed!
There is a eternal salvation (pertaining to being a child of God) that God DOES NOT use means, and there is a temporal salvation (pertaining to the life here and now, the well being of God's children) that God had not only ordained means but also commanded that those means be used!
GO and PREACH: but why go and preach, and to whom? Go and preach because these are means that will bring the condemned dead alien to eternal life, or go and preach because there are those whom God has effectually called to grace and salvation out there? Go and preach to whom - to those still dead in sins and trespasses that they may be brought to life, or to those whom God, by Himself, has effectually called out of the state of sins and death to that of grace and salvation?
The early particular baptists - the predecessors of C H Spurgeon like Benjamin Keach and John Gill, and host of others - were all very clear on the distinction between the two distinct salvation spoken of in the Bible. Those who came later became confused, and eventually rejected it entirely, thus ending up with the necessary SYNERGISTIC understanding of salvation.
Food and drink are very good. Have you ever try to feed and nourish a dead man so that he become alive? Many preachers sincerely believe that's what they are doing through the means of their gospel ministry - that they have God's appointed means to bring DEAD CONDEMNED ALIEN sinners to eternal life!
The apostles most certainly didn't believe so!
I think it is a great delight to have the means to feed a thirsty and hungry man... BUT only a LIVING man, made alive by the FREE and sovereign grace of God, can be a hungry and thirsty man! I have never met a physically dead man who can be thirsty and hungry! Those dead in sins an trespasses are adversed to spiritual things.
Get the point?
The gospel is spiritual milk and meat for the nourishment of God's children. It is NOT the means to bring eternal life to dead sinners! God DOES NOT need those means to give eternal life to the dead and condemned sinners.
I thought this is so simple. Children in my church can understand this. Goes to show the truth of this statement: "The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him." - Leo Tolstoy –
aWells
I have asked you before, what about the heathen in the Amazon rainforest or elsewhere? Your response is that the heathen would be eternally saved regardless of whether they ever had the gospel witness. You said that the only effect that the Gospel would have on them is in a temporal salvation. Did you or did you not say that?
Sing F Lau
Adam, any of God's elect [SIC] among the heathen in the Amazon or NY City or KL, He himself, at His approved and appointed time, shall effectually call out of their state of sin and death, which they are in by nature, to that of grace and salvation - by justifying them regenerating them, adopting them, and giving them the gift of His Spirit to dwell in them. This is eternal salvation by God's FREE - FREE - FREE grace - without any human means or instrumentality.
Salvation by God's FREE grace is the ONE and ONLY way to ensure that "to the end the promise [of eternal salvation] might be sure to ALL the seed" (Rm 4:16).
If you put means and instrumentality into the equation for the eternal salvation of God's elect, you necessarily introduce a human element that undermines the CERTAINTY of eternal salvation, that would exclude many elect who did not have the means brought to them, and those elect incapable of being reached with the means.
It is a fact that the gospel ministry DID NOT reach many tribes and tongues and nations and people... YET as many of the ELECT people from among them are found in heaven.
Re 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Yes, I did say that, and I repeat it here so that there is absolutely no doubt. I did say that - you read me well. The gospel ministry is ordained and is instrumental for the instruction and edification of God's children for their TEMPORAL salvation here on earth, as they make their journey through this world to their eternal inheritance., bestowed upon them by God's FREE and sovereign grace.
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."
Read the above passage CAREFULLY. What is the Scriptures, of which the gospel message is a part of, profitable for? Does it have anything to do with imparting eternal life to the condemned dead man? Or it is wholly for the sanctification of a child of God? Do you use the means to furnish a dead man for good works, or do you use it to furnish a child of God for good works, to live soberly, righteously and godly?
Is the means for making a child of God MORE FIT for heaven, i.e. more saved for heaven, OR is it for his instruction and training so that he may save himself from the perverse and wicked generation in which he lives?
Or is it for the INSTRUCTION in BOTH doctrine and righteousness (practical godliness), and for reproof and correction of the LIVING...
Keep speaking, and move on.
aWells
1After these things the LORD appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, where he himself would come. 2 Therefore said he to them, The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few: pray you therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth laborers into his harvest. 3 Go your ways.behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves. 4 Carry neither purse, nor money, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way. 5 And into whatever house you enter, first say, Peace be to this house. 6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest on it: if not, it shall turn to you again. 7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the laborer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house. 8 And into whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you: 9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say to them, The kingdom of God is come near to you. 10 But into whatever city you enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say, 11 Even the very dust of your city, which sticks on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be you sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come near to you. 12 But I say to you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city. Luke 10:1-12
Jesus said say "the kingdom of God is come near to you." That if they reject the messengers with this message, it would be more bearable for Sodom on that day. Does this not mean that they were preaching to those who reject?
Sing F Lau
What is the point of your last rhetorical question? Are you implying that I am saying that the gospel is to be preached to those only who will receive the gospel? And how is that ever to be possible UNLESS you have the omniscience to know exactly those who have been made spiritually alive from those who remain spiritually dead? Even then, if you can distinguish those spiritually alive from those still spiritually dead, it just proves that your preaching has nothing to do with their being spiritually alive!
The gospel is to be preached to all in the audience. But only those who ARE SAVED (have been justified, regenerated, adopted, and indwelt by the Holy Spirit) will ever hear and believe the good news... BECAUSE the good news is ALREADY true of them.
Hey, 'ching beng' is here. Ah Wong brought some wholesome nutritious food to the cemetery... and calls out loud the good news that Mr Wells has given him some wholesome nutritious food and sent him out to announce the good news. Unto whom do you intend to send those wholesome and nutritious food through Ah Wong - those who are still DEAD in the graves (like many superstitious and deceived ancestor worshipers are doing) or do you have in mind specifically those that have been made alive supernaturally by Mr Wells from among the dead, and are capable of benefiting and profiting from the good food?
Or did you actually send Ah Wong with the intention that Ah Wong uses those food as instrument to raise the dead from their grave?
Sing F Lau
Adam@ 2 Therefore said he to them, The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few: pray you therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth laborers into his harvest."
May I ask, and you please consider this simple question: what part did those laborers have to do in the production of the Lord's harvest? Isn't true that His harvest is ALREADY there... all ready to be gathered in, and the laborers are sent out to gather them into the NT church, into the safety of the barn here on earth. God's free grace alone has perfectly fitted them for heaven, and eternal glory.
Of course VERY MANY deluded preachers so sincerely believe that they are sent to gather souls into heaven!
Does this simple fact ever cross your mind?
The laborers are involved in the IN-GATHERING of the ALREADY EXISTING harvest. They play no part whatsoever in the PRODUCTION of the harvest.
This is so simple and obvious that I fear insulting a clever American! Insult is furthest from my mind. Enlightening and leading you to the simple truth is.
Children in my church do understand this pretty well. Many doctors of theology don't. Much easier to teach un-poisoned mind these self-evident truth.
Keep speaking!
Sing F Lau
Adam@ "6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest on it: if not, it shall turn to you again."
Who is there first - the son of peace, or your coming with the gospel? Did God produce the son of peace first before you came to the scene, and sent you to bring the glad tidings to such, or did your bringing of the glad tidings to the son of enmity became the instrument to turn that son of enmity into a son of peace?
Do you ever study and ask simple questions like these? Do people ever read and study the Bible, and let the Bible tell us what it says, or do we just make the Bible to say what we want ANY WAY?
