A mouse being pursued by a cat ...Brendan pushing his anti-grace view:
Brendan B
Limited Atonement?
"...we have put our hope in the living God, who is the saviour of all men, and especially of those who believe." 1 Timothy 4:10b
"[Jesus] is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, but not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2
Sing F Lau
There are those of the fallen and condemned human race that are given to Christ, and there are those who are sovereignly by-passed. Christ came to save His own... those that were given to Him, and are His own.
The passages you quoted need to be understood in light of this plain facts.
Jesus came to do His Father's will... and not the imagination of some men.
'All men' simply means that - not just the Jews, but men of all races, tongues, nations, and tribes.
'The sins of the whole world' - not just the sins of the Jews... but of the whole world.
If you want to make this to mean every sins of every man that ever lived... then what is it that explain the multitudes that are in hell?
There are wicked people who think that God demands double payment... Christ paid for all their sins, sinners must pay it still in hell...
Brendan B
Explaining the multitudes in hell is simple: they rejected the free grace offered unto them.
I believe as the scriptures are divinley inspired we cannot interpret them in such a cerebral manner. I beieve that "ALL" does in fact mean exactly every single person on the face of the planet.
Sing F Lau
Your "all" - does it also include those that were already in hell when Christ died on the cross?
Have you ever offered a Big Mac to a dead man? No? Try it when you have an opportunity. Observe carefully whether he reject your offer.
"Free grace offered unto them" - you insist that God does this! Only very confused and mad men would offer anything to those that are lifeless, and dead!
Only very deluded men would make God to offer anything to those dead in trespasses and sins, hoping that they may accept the offer, and receive life!
No, free grace was never offered! What is the point of offering anything to those dead in trespasses and sins. If free grace was offered, it is guaranteed that NO ONE, no NOT EVEN ONE would be able to accept the offer. Sinners dead in trespasses and sins are incapable of accepting the offer. Deluded men believe otherwise
Free grace ACCOMPLISHED eternal salvation for the elect, those chosen and given to Christ; free grace ALSO APPLIES the eternal salvation to each elect at God's own appointed and approved time. Free grace also APPOINTS the means - the gospel ministry - to call such to believe the truth of their salvation by God's free grace. They are call to believe what is ALREADY TRUE... they are not called to believe what is not yet true in order that their believing may make what is not yet true of them to become true of them!
To offer eternal salvation to those still dead in trespasses and sins is utter folly.
To offer eternal salvation to those who are able to believe (therefore already bestowed with, and possess eternal salvation) is equally foolish. The offer comes TOO LATE, and is redundant!
g'day mate!
Brendan B
You know perfectly well that those who fell into judgment before Christ's day and the promise of the New Covenant either had the Law of Moses OR their own conscience and creation itself (Romans 1-2).
So the Word of God's "All" is all people in the time of the New Covenant, the fulfillment of the Promise.
Are all men really dead in their trespasses as Calvinists interpret? The nature of deadness in sin is not annihilation but separation. Consider Adam and Eve. After they sinned (and thus became "dead" in sins), they were still able to hear and respond to God.
Consider Cornelius the Centurion (Acts 10). In order for Total Depravity the way Calvinists see it to be true, you have to prove that Cornelius was a regenerate Christian before he feared God, gave to the poor and even prayed!
Excuse me, I am not deluded. Yes, the "grace that brings salvation has appeared unto all men." as the Scriptures say. And also as they say in Romans 10:17, faith (which is necessary in order to respond to the drawing of God) comes through merely hearing the message of the Gospel, not being regenerated first! You respond in faith and then are regenerated/forgiven/transformed/born of the water and Spirit through God's power.
The grace of God accomplishes salvation for those elect in Christ - that is - those who put their trust in Him. It is only by this grace we are presented the opportunity and only by God's loving grace and drawing that we have the ability to do so. Again it is only by faith we are able to continue in faith, persevering unto the end.
Sing F Lau
So, did Jesus die for them that were BEFORE His day? And did Jesus also die for all those that came AFTER His day? Or did He die for ALL those that were on earth at the time of His death?
You say, "all people in the time of the New Covenant, the fulfillment of the Promise." So He didn't die for any outside the time of the New Covenant? How were those outside the time of the New Covenant saved then, if any were saved? Did Jesus die for Moses, a man in the Old Covenant?
O yes, consider Adam and Eve. In their sin, they fled and hid from God. Before they enjoyed the presence and communion with God. Now, they are in enmity against God... seeing God as a cruel tyrant - they learn that from the serpent. They were like Lazarus DEAD in the tomb! They heard and responded because of the life giving call of God, just like Jesus call forth Lazarus from his deadness in the tomb.
They were dead in the sense that their sin separated them from God... that's the nature of their deadness... they fled and hid from God. And if not for the free and sovereign life-giving call of God, they would NEVER have come to God. They would be in a state of ENMITY. And unless that state of enmity has been removed by God's sovereign grace BASED on the finished worked of Jesus Christ for His OWN PEOPLE, there would be no coming to Christ.
"Are all men really dead in their trespasses as Calvinists interpret? " you asked.
God's word reads, "There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."
Perhaps you and some of your friends were exception!
You don't have to agree with Calvinists. There are lots of inconsistencies and contradictions in the Calvinism that is propagated today.
But do give heed to God's word. His word is plain enough in lots of things.
Brendan B
Jesus' death heralded the coming of the new covenant and this began I believe at His resurrection. Previously, as I said, the people of the old covenant had the Law and the Prophets, and even gentiles without it had what God had put within them, that is, their conscience and self-evident knowledge of God (see Roamns 2:12-15).
Adam and Eve fled - yes. And God called - hey, they could respond! Then God did call them - they responded - and then God called them to account for their actions, but they tried to hide with the old "The devil made me do it!" trick, at which God was not impressed (sin-curse 'n' all...)
The thing to realize was even in their sin, A&E could HEAR and PERCEIVE God.
Sing F Lau, I find you to be becoming quite rude. I do not consider "[myself] and some of [my] friends" to be exceptions to the fact that we're all sinners. However, as I have clearly stated, deadness in sin I believe does not mean complete annihilation to the things of God, but separation from them. Even Romans 1:18-19 states clearly that even the wicked can clearly SEE the truth of God, yet in their evil hearts supress it.
Sing F Lau
Before God's call, they fled and hid, separated from God. They were incapable of coming to God to seek for forgiveness. They trusted in their own futile and vain effort to cover themselves.
If God had left them to themselves, they would have died and perished in their sins... even if God had waited for an eternity for them to come in repentance, they would never come. They were incapable of such spiritual activity, for they were spiritually dead!
LIFE MUST PRECEDE THE ACTIVITIES OF THAT LIFE.
God's effectual call imparts life... enable them to respond.
Jesus' call brought Lazarus out of death, and as a result he responded.
Brendan B
Yes, but you've failed to see something very important about God's call in the Garden: even after the call of God, Adam and Eve were not regenerated unto eternal life, were they? They were condemned and cast out. God came to them and gave them the opportunity to confess their sin: "Have you eaten from the tree I commanded you not to eat from?" However they, instead of confessing and repenting, tried the 'blame game' and God was not impressed.
The miracle of Lazarus has no indication about person, individual salvation; it was a display of Jesus' divine power to express to the people (effectively calling them) to who He is - namely - God (although een after this blatant display of power and truth, some people slipped away and told the Pharisees and then planned to kill Jesus!! Romans 1:18-19).
Sing F Lau
To say that they were condemned is a BLASPHEMY? God clothed them in coats of skin... from the animals that were sacrificed!
They were indeed condemned and cast out of the earthly garden... they were deprived of earthly and temporal blessings of the earthly paradisee!
And you believe they can confess their sins without God giving them the life that make such activity possible!
Brother, even the kangaroos know that LIFE MUST PRECEDE the activity of that life! Why is there this wilful ignorance or rejection???
Brendan B
From the time Adam and Eve sinned they fell under the condemnation of the sin curse. Yes God was still gracious to them (letting them live in the body), yet remember what chilling thing God said to Adam?
"For dust you are and to dust you will return." (Genesis 3:19)
God clearly told Adam that he would die beforehand if he disobeyed, and here he is telling them that, since they disobeyed, they will certainly die in their sin! The same message is being sent out to all the world today.
Well God was with them in the garden - they may very well have confessed their sins. Yet the scripture just tells us plainly: they tried to hide their sin instead. Certainly a foolish, wicked mistake on their part.
Sing F Lau
Brendan, stick the point!
Adam's sin did condemn him... he did die, i.e. became separated from God, spiritually, evidenced by his fleeing and hiding from God.
God effectually called them out of that DEATH, and Adam was able to respond. He restored them, and clothed them before they were sacked from the garden.
Every sin has temporal consequences, AS WELL AS eternal consequences.
God dealt with the eternal consequences of their sins - redeeming them, shown by the coats of skin.
God dealt with the temporal consequences of their sins - KICKING them out of the garden of Eden!
Sing F Lau
"God clearly told Adam that he would die beforehand if he disobeyed, and here he is telling them that, sionce they disobeyed, they will certainly die in their sin!"
And they DID DIE - became separated from God.
And God DID NOT LEAVE them in that state of sin and misery.
God effectually called them out of their state of sin and death (spiritual separation from God). That enabled them to respond. God rebuke them, restored them, clothed them in the blood and righteousness of the Seed of the woman... before sacking them from the garden of Eden! God chastises them that are His.
It seems it is needful to point out ELEMENTARY things to you.
Brendan B
So do you believe that Adam and Eve - those who damned the entire human race (unless of course you believe God predetermined the damning of the human race...) - we saved? THEY DID NOT REPENT. So is God the unjust God who justifies the wicked who do not repent of their crimes? No. rather, he is the God of holiness and righteousness, who rewards those who earnestly seek Him.
Elementary or not, I will listen to the Word of God, but I think your interpretation is sickenly twisted.
Sing F Lau
@ "THEY DID NOT REPENT" - this statement has broken a few commandments:
- 3rd commandment: you have taken the name of God in vain.
- 9th commandment: you have bore false witness against Adam and Eve.
You are BLIND to the evidences that they repented.
The Scriptures bore a powerful witness in these words,
"And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living." Gen 3:20.
Why did Adam call his wife's name Eve? Because he believed the gospel of the Seed of the Woman announced by God. Believing the gospel itself is repentance from sin of unbelief and falsehood of the devil. So, you have ignorantly breached the 9th commandment.
Also, the Scriptures declare: "Unto Adam ALSO and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them."
Please note the simple word ALSO, i.e. IN ADDITION TO. The question is, in addition to what? In addition to what God has already done for them... in addition to having effectually called them out of their state of sin and death (spiritual separation from God), which enabled them to respond and come before God to be rebuked and restored.
In ADDITION to eternal salvation (effectually calling them out of their state of sin and death), the LORD God ALSO took care of their temporal salvation... by visibly clothing them with coats of skins.
The LORD God ALSO clothed them with coats of skins, AS a visible token of what He has done to save them with the righteousness of the Lamb of God.
The LORD God clothing them with the coats of skins is proof that they did repent. So, you have ignorantly breached the 3rd commandment.
Sing F Lau
@"No. rather, he is the God of holiness and righteousness, who rewards those who earnestly seek Him."
This is a true statement... BUT you have perverted and twisted it to mean something else... that eternal salvation is a reward to sinners who earnestly seek God.
You refuse to accept the TRUTH that only those whom God has effectually called out of their state of sin and condemnation would ever seek the Lord. Man by nature is in ENMITY against God. By nature, there is NONE, no, not one, that seeks after God. (Rom 3:11).
Let God be true, but every man a LIAR.
Among God's children there are some that seek Him, a remnant seek Him earnestly. Many others enter the wide gate and walk the broad way, like their cousin Lot, who made shipwreck of their faith.
"Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
The Book of Hebrews was written to God's children among the Jews (Jewish believers in Jesus Christ) who were tempted to return to the old covenant worship... It was NOT addressed at sinners dead in trespasses and sins to urge them to seek the Lord and be rewarded with salvation.
Please go and find a good teacher to help you to rightly divide the word of truth... Pleaseeeeeeeeeee! Don't continue to make a mess of yourself!
