We meet here.

Dear Friends,

Sungai Dua Church meets at 6K Desa University Commercial Complex, Jalan Sungai Dua, 11700 Penang:

We meet each Wednesday 8.00pm for our weekly Bible Study.

We meet each Lord's Day services at 9.00am and 11.00am, with a break at 10.30-11.00am.

Baptist

We are Baptists, like John the Baptist, our Lord, His apostles, and many martyrs. We only baptize believers and only by immersion to show a picture of our Lord's burial and resurrection. We reject all infant sprinklings as abominations of the false church in Rome. (Matt 3:13-17; Mark 16:16; John 3:23; Romans 6:3-5; I Peter 3:21).

Predestinarian

We believe God chose to save some of rebellious mankind before the world began for the praise of His glorious grace and to leave the rest under condemnation for the praise of His wrath and power. Jesus died only for the elect, and the Spirit regenerates only them. The pure gospel is good news only for elect and regenerate hearers. (John 6:37-39; Rom 8:29-39; 9:10-24; Eph 1:3-12; II Tim 1:9-10).

KJV Bible

We are Bible Christians. Without Scripture, we cannot know Jesus Christ. God inspired and preserved His words perfectly. Each is vital to truth. Satan attacked God's words in Eden, and he attacks them today with many false versions and proud skeptical attitudes. (Psalm 12:6-7; 119:128; Pr 8:8-9; II Tim 3:16-17; II Pet 1:16-21).

Simple Services

We want our assemblies to copy the apostolic churches. We find no evidence for Sunday Schools, pianos, statues, flags, plays, or other inventions. We stress Bible reading and preaching, prayer, spiritual singing, thanksgiving, the Lord's Supper, and fellowship. (Acts 2:42-47; Eph 5:18-21; I Cor 11:1-2; II Tim 4:1-4; Heb 10:23-25).

Plain Preaching

We believe God sent ministers to preach the word to perfect His saints. Most Christians want entertainment today, but we exalt detailed teaching of God's word. We believe every word of God, and we want to hear it taught boldly on every subject it touches. (Neh 8:1-12; I Cor 2:1-5; I Timothy 4:13-15; II Tim 3:16-17; 4:1-4).

Holy Living

We believe God's true children will live holy lives. God is holy, and He wants us holy. True Christians do not befriend the world, will not conform their standards to the world, and will defy and overcome the world. We teach, expect, and enforce godly living. (Romans 12:1-2; II Cor 7:1; James 4:4; I Pet 2:11; I John 2:15-17)

https://goo.gl/maps/kEJSVSEmns92

Link to Google map

Are Adam & Eve saved?

A mouse being pursued by a cat ...

Brendan pushing his anti-grace view:

Brendan B
Limited Atonement?

"...we have put our hope in the living God, who is the saviour of all men, and especially of those who believe." 1 Timothy 4:10b

"[Jesus] is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, but not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2


Sing F Lau
There are those of the fallen and condemned human race that are given to Christ, and there are those who are sovereignly by-passed. Christ came to save His own... those that were given to Him, and are His own.

The passages you quoted need to be understood in light of this plain facts.

Jesus came to do His Father's will... and not the imagination of some men.

'All men' simply means that - not just the Jews, but men of all races, tongues, nations, and tribes.

'The sins of the whole world' - not just the sins of the Jews... but of the whole world.

If you want to make this to mean every sins of every man that ever lived... then what is it that explain the multitudes that are in hell?

There are wicked people who think that God demands double payment... Christ paid for all their sins, sinners must pay it still in hell...


Brendan B
Explaining the multitudes in hell is simple: they rejected the free grace offered unto them.

I believe as the scriptures are divinley inspired we cannot interpret them in such a cerebral manner. I beieve that "ALL" does in fact mean exactly every single person on the face of the planet.


Sing F Lau
Your "all" - does it also include those that were already in hell when Christ died on the cross?

Have you ever offered a Big Mac to a dead man? No? Try it when you have an opportunity. Observe carefully whether he reject your offer.

"Free grace offered unto them" - you insist that God does this! Only very confused and mad men would offer anything to those that are lifeless, and dead!

Only very deluded men would make God to offer anything to those dead in trespasses and sins, hoping that they may accept the offer, and receive life!

No, free grace was never offered! What is the point of offering anything to those dead in trespasses and sins. If free grace was offered, it is guaranteed that NO ONE, no NOT EVEN ONE would be able to accept the offer. Sinners dead in trespasses and sins are incapable of accepting the offer. Deluded men believe otherwise

Free grace ACCOMPLISHED eternal salvation for the elect, those chosen and given to Christ; free grace ALSO APPLIES the eternal salvation to each elect at God's own appointed and approved time. Free grace also APPOINTS the means - the gospel ministry - to call such to believe the truth of their salvation by God's free grace. They are call to believe what is ALREADY TRUE... they are not called to believe what is not yet true in order that their believing may make what is not yet true of them to become true of them!

To offer eternal salvation to those still dead in trespasses and sins is utter folly.

To offer eternal salvation to those who are able to believe (therefore already bestowed with, and possess eternal salvation) is equally foolish. The offer comes TOO LATE, and is redundant!

g'day mate!

Brendan B
You know perfectly well that those who fell into judgment before Christ's day and the promise of the New Covenant either had the Law of Moses OR their own conscience and creation itself (Romans 1-2).

So the Word of God's "All" is all people in the time of the New Covenant, the fulfillment of the Promise.

Are all men really dead in their trespasses as Calvinists interpret? The nature of deadness in sin is not annihilation but separation. Consider Adam and Eve. After they sinned (and thus became "dead" in sins), they were still able to hear and respond to God.

Consider Cornelius the Centurion (Acts 10). In order for Total Depravity the way Calvinists see it to be true, you have to prove that Cornelius was a regenerate Christian before he feared God, gave to the poor and even prayed!

Excuse me, I am not deluded. Yes, the "grace that brings salvation has appeared unto all men." as the Scriptures say. And also as they say in Romans 10:17, faith (which is necessary in order to respond to the drawing of God) comes through merely hearing the message of the Gospel, not being regenerated first! You respond in faith and then are regenerated/forgiven/transformed/born of the water and Spirit through God's power.

The grace of God accomplishes salvation for those elect in Christ - that is - those who put their trust in Him. It is only by this grace we are presented the opportunity and only by God's loving grace and drawing that we have the ability to do so. Again it is only by faith we are able to continue in faith, persevering unto the end.


Sing F Lau
So, did Jesus die for them that were BEFORE His day? And did Jesus also die for all those that came AFTER His day? Or did He die for ALL those that were on earth at the time of His death?

You say, "all people in the time of the New Covenant, the fulfillment of the Promise." So He didn't die for any outside the time of the New Covenant? How were those outside the time of the New Covenant saved then, if any were saved? Did Jesus die for Moses, a man in the Old Covenant?

O yes, consider Adam and Eve. In their sin, they fled and hid from God. Before they enjoyed the presence and communion with God. Now, they are in enmity against God... seeing God as a cruel tyrant - they learn that from the serpent. They were like Lazarus DEAD in the tomb! They heard and responded because of the life giving call of God, just like Jesus call forth Lazarus from his deadness in the tomb.

They were dead in the sense that their sin separated them from God... that's the nature of their deadness... they fled and hid from God. And if not for the free and sovereign life-giving call of God, they would NEVER have come to God. They would be in a state of ENMITY. And unless that state of enmity has been removed by God's sovereign grace BASED on the finished worked of Jesus Christ for His OWN PEOPLE, there would be no coming to Christ.

"Are all men really dead in their trespasses as Calvinists interpret? " you asked.
God's word reads, "There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

Perhaps you and some of your friends were exception!

You don't have to agree with Calvinists. There are lots of inconsistencies and contradictions in the Calvinism that is propagated today.

But do give heed to God's word. His word is plain enough in lots of things.


Brendan B
Jesus' death heralded the coming of the new covenant and this began I believe at His resurrection. Previously, as I said, the people of the old covenant had the Law and the Prophets, and even gentiles without it had what God had put within them, that is, their conscience and self-evident knowledge of God (see Roamns 2:12-15).

Adam and Eve fled - yes. And God called - hey, they could respond! Then God did call them - they responded - and then God called them to account for their actions, but they tried to hide with the old "The devil made me do it!" trick, at which God was not impressed (sin-curse 'n' all...)

The thing to realize was even in their sin, A&E could HEAR and PERCEIVE God.

Sing F Lau, I find you to be becoming quite rude. I do not consider "[myself] and some of [my] friends" to be exceptions to the fact that we're all sinners. However, as I have clearly stated, deadness in sin I believe does not mean complete annihilation to the things of God, but separation from them. Even Romans 1:18-19 states clearly that even the wicked can clearly SEE the truth of God, yet in their evil hearts supress it.

Sing F Lau
Before God's call, they fled and hid, separated from God. They were incapable of coming to God to seek for forgiveness. They trusted in their own futile and vain effort to cover themselves.

If God had left them to themselves, they would have died and perished in their sins... even if God had waited for an eternity for them to come in repentance, they would never come. They were incapable of such spiritual activity, for they were spiritually dead!

LIFE MUST PRECEDE THE ACTIVITIES OF THAT LIFE.

God's effectual call imparts life... enable them to respond.

Jesus' call brought Lazarus out of death, and as a result he responded.

Brendan B
Yes, but you've failed to see something very important about God's call in the Garden: even after the call of God, Adam and Eve were not regenerated unto eternal life, were they? They were condemned and cast out. God came to them and gave them the opportunity to confess their sin: "Have you eaten from the tree I commanded you not to eat from?" However they, instead of confessing and repenting, tried the 'blame game' and God was not impressed.

The miracle of Lazarus has no indication about person, individual salvation; it was a display of Jesus' divine power to express to the people (effectively calling them) to who He is - namely - God (although een after this blatant display of power and truth, some people slipped away and told the Pharisees and then planned to kill Jesus!! Romans 1:18-19).
Sing F Lau
To say that they were condemned is a BLASPHEMY? God clothed them in coats of skin... from the animals that were sacrificed!

They were indeed condemned and cast out of the earthly garden... they were deprived of earthly and temporal blessings of the earthly paradisee!

And you believe they can confess their sins without God giving them the life that make such activity possible!

Brother, even the kangaroos know that LIFE MUST PRECEDE the activity of that life! Why is there this wilful ignorance or rejection???

Brendan B
From the time Adam and Eve sinned they fell under the condemnation of the sin curse. Yes God was still gracious to them (letting them live in the body), yet remember what chilling thing God said to Adam?

"For dust you are and to dust you will return." (Genesis 3:19)

God clearly told Adam that he would die beforehand if he disobeyed, and here he is telling them that, since they disobeyed, they will certainly die in their sin! The same message is being sent out to all the world today.

Well God was with them in the garden - they may very well have confessed their sins. Yet the scripture just tells us plainly: they tried to hide their sin instead. Certainly a foolish, wicked mistake on their part.
Sing F Lau
Brendan, stick the point!
Adam's sin did condemn him... he did die, i.e. became separated from God, spiritually, evidenced by his fleeing and hiding from God.

God effectually called them out of that DEATH, and Adam was able to respond. He restored them, and clothed them before they were sacked from the garden.

Every sin has temporal consequences, AS WELL AS eternal consequences.

God dealt with the eternal consequences of their sins - redeeming them, shown by the coats of skin.

God dealt with the temporal consequences of their sins - KICKING them out of the garden of Eden!

Sing F Lau
"God clearly told Adam that he would die beforehand if he disobeyed, and here he is telling them that, sionce they disobeyed, they will certainly die in their sin!"

And they DID DIE - became separated from God.

And God DID NOT LEAVE them in that state of sin and misery.

God effectually called them out of their state of sin and death (spiritual separation from God). That enabled them to respond. God rebuke them, restored them, clothed them in the blood and righteousness of the Seed of the woman... before sacking them from the garden of Eden! God chastises them that are His.

It seems it is needful to point out ELEMENTARY things to you.

Brendan B
So do you believe that Adam and Eve - those who damned the entire human race (unless of course you believe God predetermined the damning of the human race...) - we saved? THEY DID NOT REPENT. So is God the unjust God who justifies the wicked who do not repent of their crimes? No. rather, he is the God of holiness and righteousness, who rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

Elementary or not, I will listen to the Word of God, but I think your interpretation is sickenly twisted.

Sing F Lau
@ "THEY DID NOT REPENT" - this statement has broken a few commandments:
- 3rd commandment: you have taken the name of God in vain.
- 9th commandment: you have bore false witness against Adam and Eve.

You are BLIND to the evidences that they repented.

The Scriptures bore a powerful witness in these words,
"And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living." Gen 3:20.

Why did Adam call his wife's name Eve? Because he believed the gospel of the Seed of the Woman announced by God. Believing the gospel itself is repentance from sin of unbelief and falsehood of the devil. So, you have ignorantly breached the 9th commandment.

Also, the Scriptures declare: "Unto Adam ALSO and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them."

Please note the simple word ALSO, i.e. IN ADDITION TO. The question is, in addition to what? In addition to what God has already done for them... in addition to having effectually called them out of their state of sin and death (spiritual separation from God), which enabled them to respond and come before God to be rebuked and restored.

In ADDITION to eternal salvation (effectually calling them out of their state of sin and death), the LORD God ALSO took care of their temporal salvation... by visibly clothing them with coats of skins.

The LORD God ALSO clothed them with coats of skins, AS a visible token of what He has done to save them with the righteousness of the Lamb of God.

The LORD God clothing them with the coats of skins is proof that they did repent. So, you have ignorantly breached the 3rd commandment.

Sing F Lau
@"No. rather, he is the God of holiness and righteousness, who rewards those who earnestly seek Him."

This is a true statement... BUT you have perverted and twisted it to mean something else... that eternal salvation is a reward to sinners who earnestly seek God.

You refuse to accept the TRUTH that only those whom God has effectually called out of their state of sin and condemnation would ever seek the Lord. Man by nature is in ENMITY against God. By nature, there is NONE, no, not one, that seeks after God. (Rom 3:11).

Let God be true, but every man a LIAR.

Among God's children there are some that seek Him, a remnant seek Him earnestly. Many others enter the wide gate and walk the broad way, like their cousin Lot, who made shipwreck of their faith.

"Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

The Book of Hebrews was written to God's children among the Jews (Jewish believers in Jesus Christ) who were tempted to return to the old covenant worship... It was NOT addressed at sinners dead in trespasses and sins to urge them to seek the Lord and be rewarded with salvation.

Please go and find a good teacher to help you to rightly divide the word of truth... Pleaseeeeeeeeeee! Don't continue to make a mess of yourself!

A fire inferno - a plea for help

Dear Brethren,
I want to thank each and everyone who responded to the call for help.

Sister Esther, the daughter of Alice's sister has written to acknowledge the gifts from the following that have been forwarded to her. I paste below her acknowledgment to the donors.

sing
=======

On Apr 27, 2010, at 9:37 AM, Esther Ling Hoong Hoong wrote:

Dear Brethen,

Greeting in the blessed name of our lord and saviour Jesus Christ.

I write to thank you from the bottom of my heart for responding to the appeal put out by Pastor Lau on behalf of my mother, Alice's 4th sister.

Pastor Lau has remitted to me the gift that were contributed from the following :

KES - RM1000.00
LKM - RM1000.00
ML - RM1144.80 ( S$500.00)
LWM -RM5672.75 ( S$2500.00 )
ScUsa -RM3188.29 (US1000.00)
SDC - RM800.00
Sydney - RM1448 (AUD 500.00) (June 1)
__________________
Total - RM14253.84
==================

Regards,
Esther Ling
on behalf of my mother

========================

The timber house completely burnt to the ground.

The timber tops of the next two houses completely gone!

Taken from the front. Scrap metal scavengers have arrived...
like vultures descending upon dead carcass!

The 4th house saved in the nick of time!

Dear Brethren out there,

I am writing this to ask for help.

On Wednesday (March 17) around noon time, some children were seen burning some rubbish behind a timber house, with thatch roof covered over with TARpaulin canvas. It was a school holiday week (Mar 14-21). To the right of this timber house is the house belonging to my wife's (Alice) sister. This house and the next few houses are double storey, with brick walls on the ground floor, while the first floor is completely timber. The house immediately to the left is a single storey brick house (the shell of this house was intact but the contents were burnt too when the glass windows melted away under the intense heat).

The weather has been extremely dry for several months now. Somehow, the timber house caught fire, and the inferno produced by the thatch roof, TARpaulin and timber spread to the next two houses in no time... despite the great effort by some neighbors to douse out the initial fire. The neighbor behind the timber house was the first to notice the timber house on fire, and set off the warning. By the time the fire men came, from a bigger town nearby, they could only prevent the fire from consuming the 4th house.

Alice's sister is a widow. The husband passed away a few years ago because of cancer. She survives on the proceeds from a small plot of palm oil plantation. She has a few sons, but they are the irresponsible type. She has a daughter (Esther Ling) who is a fine Christian, who were together with us in the same church in KL before we came to Penang. In this terrible accident, nothing was saved except the life of her grandchild whom she was baby-sitting. Everything else is consumed by the fire! Several other grand children were not home because of school holiday - away visiting their parents who work in far away.

I heard of the bad news on Thursday late morning. Alice and I made a trip to the little town (Ayer Tawar in Perak state) later in the afternoon. The sight was heartbreaking. We took the four pictures below... We spoke to some of the neighbors who are still in shock and terrified!

I write to seek your help for my sister in law. There is an effort to raise fund among her siblings. I want to do my part to show the love and care of Christian for her. I am making this need known to the Christians I am in fellowship with here and elsewhere.

I know needs are everywhere. But if the Lord move your heart to help this situation, I would be most grateful. Please contact me and I will let you have the details of the church account for this purpose.

a brother in Christ,
sing
====

Monergism or Synergism, Pure grace or Prostituted grace

Monergism of SOUND-BYTE and FURY only,

or Monergism of SENSE and FACT?

Do you really believe in Salvation by grace alone?

Is your grace really grace, or is it a mixture of grace and works?
Examine it. Purge out the adulteration!

Monergism began with this quote:
"A man is opposed to Christ, he hates his gospel, does not understand it and will not receive it-- the Holy Spirit comes, puts light into his darkened understanding, takes the chain from his bondaged will, gives liberty to his conscience, gives life to his dead soul, ... and the man becomes a new creature in Christ Jesus." - C.H. Spurgeon

Sing F Lau
Let me inquire: does the Holy Spirit do those things BEFORE or AFTER (i.e. logically, not chronologically) the Father has removed the condemnation of death through the imputation of the righteousness of life?

Does the Holy Spirit do such things to one who is still under the condemnation of death, or does He do such thing to one whom the Father has already justified, i.e. removed the condemnation of death, and applied the righteousness of life?

Which must happen first logically: justification by God the Father, or regeneration by God the Spirit?

Are any immorality and lawlessness involved for the Spirit to give life to one who is still under a condemnation of death whom God the Father has not freely justified by His grace?

Monergism
Sing, you are thinking in temporal terms. There is no time sequence which takes place here. Regeneration and Justification occur simultaneously, concurrently. Like heat and fire. One has causal priority though. If you hit a pool ball it rolls and strikes another. Which one hits first? Neither. They both strike at the same time YET one causes the other to move. Likewise, regeneration of the Spirit works faith in a man, he believes and is justified. 1 John 5:1 says all who believe "HAVE BEEN born of God" (past tense with continual action). As Packer said, "The saving power of the cross does not depend on faith being added to it; its saving power is such that faith flows from it." Salvation is a whole package. All these blessings flow from the cross ... but the Spirit takes these blessings and applies them to those the Father has given the Son (John 6:37, 63,65).

Sing F Lau
You state it correctly: 'regeneration and justification occur simultaneously.' I would insist that LOGICALLY and CAUSALLY, it is justification precedes regeneration.

Granted that 'regeneration and justification occur simultaneously', and that regeneration precedes faith (most certainly chronologically in this case... it always takes time for a regenerated to hear and understand, and then believe) - then the popular notion that justification is by faith alone is obviously and plainly an error! Justification PRECEDES faith.

"The reason why any are justified IS NOT because they have faith; but the reason why they have faith IS because they are justified." A Circular Letter on JUSTIFICATION issued by Philadelphia Baptist Association on October 4th, 1785.

Justification by God involves the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the ungodly condemned man; God declaring a guilty condemned man not guilty but righteous. A guilty condemned man is incapable of believing in order to be justified by God.

Justification by faith involves the imputation of believer's faith to the believer (as in Gen 15), i.e. God blessing the faith of the believer unto the believer such that he EXPERIENCES the blessedness of his justified stated by God's free grace. Believing, he EVIDENCES that he is a justified man by God's free grace.

God justifies the UNGODLY: God declares a guilty condemned sinner not guilty but righteous by imputing the righteousness of Christ to the guilty condemned sinners.

Faith justifies the believing ones: faith declares that the believing ones are the justified AND regenerated of God!

The two aspects of justification are VERY difference.

Read this article here to note the vast difference!
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2009/09/therefore-as-arminians-reject-doctrine.html

Biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology!


Monergism
Sing, you said, "it always takes time for a regenerated to hear and understand" ... I would revise this statement simply because the Scripture declares that we are born through the word of truth. These things do not happen in a void. The gospel which we cast indiscriminately is like a seed to which the Holy Spirit germinates, so to speak, where He wills. When spoken in the power of the Holy Spirit, the word of God has the power to graciously open people's eyes, unplug their uncircumcised ears, change the disposition of their hearts, draw them to faith, and save them (James 1:18, 1 Peter 1:23, 25). 1 Thes 1:4, 5 shows word and Spirit cannot be separated: "For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction..." Calvin said, "the Lord has so knit together the certainty of his word and his Spirit, that our minds are duly imbued with reverence for the word when the Spirit shining upon it enables us there to behold the face of God; and, on the other hand, we embrace the Spirit with no danger of delusion when we recognize him in his image, that is, in his word."

Sing F Lau
You do believe in gospel regeneration (the gospel is the necessary means in regeneration), don't you? I don't. However, I do believe in gospel CONVERSION!

Was Abraham a justified and regenerated man in Gen 12-14?

Was Cornelius a regenerated man before he ever heard the gospel from Peter?

Monergism
Sing, Thank you for your thoughts. Imho, logic must always submit to the Scripture.

1 Pet 23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God
18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Cornelius heard the old testament and was justified through it well before Peter came along. This did not happen in some void.

Appreciate your comments but this is not the forum to get into a further long discussion about this. We definitely have different understandings of this issue.

Sing F Lau
The whole Scriptures is logical. God communicates LOGICALLY with RATIONAL creatures, especially those with a SOUND mind!

I believe the living and abiding word in 1Pet 1:23 refers to the eternal life-giving Word, the eternal life-giving Logos, and not the preached or written word.

Cornelius was enough to dismiss the popular errors that regeneration, justification, and faith are simultaneous.


Sing F Lau
I am pretty certain that you understand that legal Justification by and before God requires the imputation of Christ's righteousness (for there is none other available) to a condemned criminal. Imputation of faith, the act of believing, HAS NOTHING to do with the justification of a guilty condemned man before God - even though nearly everyone thinks so. There is near wholesale delusion and deception in modern time!

Read this simple definition of Justification from an old confession of faith, and say what you think:

"Those whom God effectually calleth, He also freely justifieth,(1) not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous;(2) not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone;(3) not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing Christ's active obedience unto the whole law, and passive obedience in His death for their whole and sole righteousness,(4) they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith, which faith they have not of themselves; it is the gift of God.(5)"

And please remember that justification by God's grace is a distinct act, separate, and prior to the reception of the justification through faith.

Did you read those words, "NOT BY IMPUTING FAITH ITSELF..." but nearly everyone mutter 'justification by faith alone.'

Did you read those words, NOT BY "ANY OTHER EVANGELICAL OBEDIENCE TO THEM" - faith, the act of believing is an evangelical obedience!

Did you read those words, "NOT FOR ANYTHING DONE IN THEM..." - faith is something worked and done in them!

Did you notice those words, "... He also FREELY justifieth..."

If justification is by faith in any way or sense, then justification is conditioned on faith in some way or manner, THEN justification is no longer by God's free grace!

Why are those who claim themselves to be the descendants of those who frame those doctrinal confessions are SO BLINDED to the plain and simple truth summarized by their forefathers, and insisted on the mantra of justification by faith alone, while the Scriptures declares, "... and NOT by faith only."

Read more here: http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2008/01/by-faith-alone-vs-not-by-faith-alone.html

Monergism
Yes, no one disagrees with you on this Sing. Salvation is by grace ALONE. Faith being a product of that grace. That is the whole focus of Monergism.com. Justification through faith was important to the Reformers because it helped to express and to safeguard their answer to another, MORE vital, question, namely, whether sinners are wholly helpless in their sin, and whether God is to be thought of as saving them by free, unconditional, invincible grace, not only justifying them for Christ's sake when they come to faith, but also raising them from the death of sin by His quickening Spirit in order to bring them to faith.


Sing F Lau
"...not only justifying them for Christ's sake WHEN they come to faith..."
On moment you say, 'no one disagrees with you on this, "salvation is by grace ALONE" and in the next breath, your statement shows that you are still in deep disagreement against the truth summarized in the Confession of faith. You affirmed your agreement with the heresy of legal justification by faith alone. In these words, you have just stated the SERIOUS ERROR again - justification by their faith!

They come to faith BECAUSE they HAVE BEEN JUSTIFIED! Not IN ORDER to be justified!

Along the way, some monumental and subtle error took place. The crafty devil caused the careless and unthinking children to exchange pure gold the fathers left to them for a lump of gold looking dung!

Let me explain.

The Scriptures teach that God FREELY justifies an ungodly condemned dead man by His grace, by imputing the righteousness of life to him and forgiving him all his sins. This gives divine warrant for the Spirit to regenerate this justified man.

Thus FREELY justified and regenerated by grace, this man is able to believe when the gospel ministry is brought to him. In believing, his faith justifies him, i.e. his faith certifies, demonstrates, evidences, and vindicates that he is ALREADY justified and regenerated by God's FREE grace, his believing gives him the authority to claim that he is a child of God, since 'whoever believes HAS eternal life' - believing EVIDENCES eternal life.

This is where the disaster took place.

The LEGAL justification by God's FREE grace is not distinguished from the EXPERIENTIAL justification by believer's faith.

WORSE STILL, the experiential justification by believer's faith is CONFUSED AS, and FUSED WITH the legal justification by God's free grace.

Thus they end up with the damnable heresy of legal justification by believer's faith, and by believer's faith only!

How the devil has succeeded in deceiving so many to embrace a lie as though it is the truth!

You said, "Salvation is by grace ALONE. Faith being a product of that grace. "

My simple questions,
- How could faith, a product (fruit and effect) of the grace that freely bestows the salvation become the INSTRUMENT to obtain that same salvation?
- How could faith, a product of the salvation wrought by grace alone, become the instrumental means of receiving that salvation?

What a mess of confusion and irrationalism brought about by sound-bytes!

Gospel regeneration vs. Gospel Conversion

Food is for the nourishment of the living.

(Of course many superstitious Chinese offer food to the dead!)

The gospel, the glad tidings of salvation is for the living,

the children of God, the elect whom God has regenerated.

Awe
Hi Sing,
Please take a moment and watch this short video. I look forward to your comments.
I am having trouble understanding your view of evangelism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JPklJzIn7k
Now I See It Well - Steve Saint and Mincaye. Randy Alcorn's interview with Steve Saint, son of Nate Saint, one of the five missionaries murdered by the Auca Indians in Ecuador in 1956, and with Mincaye, one of the Auca tribesmen who killed the missionaries.

Sing F Lau
You said you have trouble understanding my view of evangelism! Hmmm.

What is your understanding of evangelism? Please tell me. I am acquainted with the popular view! I was brought up in those fables.

I take it that by evangelism, you mean making disciples through the gospel ministry - as in Christ's command to the apostles.

I take it that disciples can only be made out of those whom God Himself has effectually called to grace and salvation. Many preachers attempt to make disciples out of sinners still dead in sins, believing that God uses them to help Him make His children.

While it is absolutely true that the preacher addresses all his hearers, it is nevertheless true that ONLY those whom God ARE saved can hear and believe the gospel as the good news of what God has done to save them. God's children are found in the multitudes, therefore the gospel message is addressed to the multitudes, in which those that ARE SAVED are found.

So many don't take God's word seriously.
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."

The gospel is intended, and has relevance ONLY to those that ARE SAVED - ALREADY in the state of salvation before the gospel preaching comes to them. The gospel is the good news that instructs and informs them of their salvation by God's free and sovereign grace.

Is anything I have written above hard to understand? It may be hard to believe or accept!

So much that go around in the name of Christ is just man-centred religion... like Adam attempting to cover his nakedness with fig leaves... that's the nature of fallen man.

Sing F Lau
I have watched the short video.
Which part or what subject raised in the video that you wish me to comment on? He speaks much about walking in His trail.

And this again bring us back to the mother of all question: who will walk this trail... a man in his state of sin and death, or a man whom God himself has called out of the state of sin and death to grace and salvation, all by His free and sovereign grace?

A child of God can be persuaded to walk Christ's trail; no man, not even the most persuasive and eloquent preacher, can persuade a man still dead in trespasses and sin to walk in Christ's way! That does not deny that many preachers sincerely believe they can!

The simple maxim of the gospel truth is this: Life precedes the activities of that life. Eternal life by God's free grace precedes all the activities of that life... like the spiritual activity of hearing and believing the gospel, reverence for God, work righteousness, etc.

He also speaks of names written in God's book of Life. Many preachers preach and teach that when a man believe, his name is written in the book of life. But the Scriptures declares that names have been written in the Lamb's Book of life before the foundation of the world. NO human activities, no amount of missionary activities, no amount of parenting, etc, etc, can add one extra name in that Book of Life... no, NOT ONE.

Human activities CONTRIBUTE NOTHING toward a man's BEING as God's children. This is an SON-SHIP issue. This is what is mean by salvation by grace ALONE... and ALONE means ALONE... otherwise words have lost their specific meaning, and communication becomes futile.

Human activities CONTRIBUTE GREATLY toward a man's WELL-BEING as God's children. This is a DISCIPLE-SHIP issue. This is where the gospel ministry is relevance!

A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology.

Awe
Thanks for the reply. I agree that salvation is by grace. You said that "Human activities CONTRIBUTE NOTHING toward a man's BEING as God's children." So all of those who were savages before they heard the Gospel preached as mentioned in the video, would have gone to heaven or hell when they died?

Sing F Lau
If I understand you correctly, the answer is 'yes'. [If salvation is indeed by grace, then human activities contribute nothing toward a man's BEING as a child of God.] Those who are elect, whose names were written in the Book of Life would have gone to paradise [heaven is entered only after the glorious resurrection], the rest would have gone to hell when they die, and then to the lake of fire on the great day of judgment. Their going to heaven or the lake of fire is remotely dependent in any way upon the gospel ministry. [It depends ENTIRELY upon the free and sovereign grace of God ALONE - otherwise 'salvation by grace alone' is just a meaningless religious shibboleth!]

Those that are God's elect among those savages, God would have effectually called them out of their state of sin and death into the state of grace and salvation in Jesus Christ, perfectly fitting them for eternal glory - all on His own, without the gospel ministry whatsoever. Their BEING as God's children was entirely by the free and sovereign activities of God alone.

Such children of God who did not enjoy the gospel ministry, their WELL-BEING as God's children would have suffered a great deal, without the benefit of the gospel ministry to inform and instruct them of the truth of their glorious salvation by the free and sovereign grace of God, and the ministry of the word for their well-being as God's children while they journey through this world.

The common and popular view is this: God requires the gospel ministry to produce His children, that God sovereignly chooses to subject His divine work of effectual call to the gospel ministry! Such preachers make themselves very important - they are co-workers with God in the eternal salvation of themselves and others! This is classic 'SYNERGISM', and a classic denial of 'monergism' - eternal salvation by God's free grace alone.

Consider this passage:
"29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Is there any human activity here for the glorification for any one of God's elect - whether they be among the savages of the Amazon or the enlighten Americans raised in the Bible Belt? Which part involves man's activity?

Please think carefully. I don't want to hear shibboleths or platitudes. Reasoned and thought through opinion are welcome.

Do all the activities of the gynaecologist, the nurses and midwives, and hosts of others play any role in you fathering your children into BEING? I know they contribute greatly towards the well-being of your children!

A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology.

Awe
Consider this verse: And I said, Who are you, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom you persecute. 16 But rise, and stand on your feet: for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of these things which you have seen, and of those things in the which I will appear to you; 17 Delivering you from the people, and from the Gentiles, to whom now I send you, 18 TO OPEN THEIR EYES, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. Acts 26

Paul was a preacher and in the chapter containing this passage, he preached the Gospel to all who heard and even told them he would that they all be like him save his chains. Now if the same man who said the above and states that Jesus told him that He would use him (Paul) to turn them (Gentiles) from darkness to light also stated the passage you reference... you tell me, is there any human activity in it? One can certainly reason and it is obvious that many have for centuries, that God indeed uses the foolishness of preaching to open the eyes of those lost in sin and without forgiveness to turn and believe. Through Paul's activities, did God open men's eyes and turn men from darkness to light?

You said: "Those that are God's elect among those savages, God would have effectually called them out of their state of sin and death into the state of grace and salvation, perfectly fitting them for eternal glory - all on His own, without the gospel ministry whatsoever." (Obviously, I think that is insane and highly unscriptural!) What problem do you have in admitting that the method God used to "call them out" was via the missionary? Isn't this what God told Paul he was to do? Think carefully.

Conception - the begetting of a child

Sing F Lau
Awe, I have no problem with the passage you quoted. They perfectly explain what I have been saying. I told you no shibboleth or platitudes.

You fail to distinguish the plain distinction between that which deal with the BEING of God's children, and that which deals with the WELL-BEING of God's children, the distinction between the SON-SHIP issue, and the DISCIPLE-SHIP issue. If you cannot make this biblical distinction, further discussion on this subject will avail nothing.

The difference lies here: you and I attribute difference MEANINGS to the functions to the gospel ministry: you attribute the BEING of SON-SHIP to the gospel ministry, I attribute the WELL-BEING of DISCIPLE-SHIP to the gospel ministry.

These functions of the gospel ministry: 'to open their eyes' is NOT the same as giving them life. 'To turn them from darkness to light is not the same as giving them life. 'To turn them from the power of Satan' is not the same as giving them eternal life. That they may receive the forgiveness of sin is not the same as that they may be regenerated.

All of the above have to do with the WELL-BEING of God's children. The gospel ministry is to open their eyes to see the truth of their salvation that has been bestowed by God's free grace; to turn them from darkness is to deliver them from their darkness of ignorance; to turn them from the power of Satan is to turn them from the delusion and lies of Satan; that they may receive the forgiveness of their sin is TO EXPERIENCE personally that forgiveness through faith in Christ. All these are accomplished through the gospel ministry; it promotes the well-being of God's children that He Himself alone has fathered through His Spirit based on the finished work of Jesus Christ.

BUT you would attribute these activities to the bringing into BEING of God's children by the gospel ministry.

God uses the gospel ministry NOT to "call them out" of their state of sin and death into the state of grace and salvation.

God has ordained, AND uses the gospel ministry to call His children (those already effectually called by Himself to grace and salvation by His own free and sovereign grace) out of their ignorance and lies, instruct them the gospel truths of their eternal salvation by God's free grace, turn them from lies and delusion of Satan, etc.

You asked, "What problem do you have in admitting that the method God used to "call them out" was via the missionary?"

That's a mighty good question. Before I raise the insurmountable problems of your 'gospel regeneration' view, may I suggest that you first STATE your big problem with the biblical view that I have set forth for your consideration. Maybe this way, it is less difficult for you to learn some gospel truth!

Tell me, which and what part does a man/preacher play in his predestination-to-glorification, i.e. in his ETERNAL salvation, i.e. in his BEING as a child of God?

(Please note, I am NOT inquiring which and what part does a man/preacher play in his temporal salvation, in his WELL-BEING as a child of God.)

Have a good day!

The nurturing of a child that has been begotten

Awe
Speaking of shibboleths and platitudes... that's all I see in your arguments.

The main point is that only God gives life. I'm happy to stand in the vast company of faithful, God-fearing men who gave their lives to preach the Gospel and believed in what you call Gospel Regeneration. When or how a person is regenerated is only by the Spirit. We are commanded to preach and preach I will! If there is no concern over men's souls, the preacher ought to keep silent for I fear such a man would not be speaking by the Spirit.

Sing F Lau
I believe in gospel CONVERSION.
You believe in gospel REGENERATION.

You said, "When or how a person is regenerated is only by the Spirit." So does the Holy Spirit depends on your gospel ministry to regenerate one of God's elect? That's THE issue, isn't it? Is His work of regeneration dependent upon preachers activities of preaching?

I don't even know whether you have started grappling with the issue at hand - whether the gospel ministry plays any role in the regenerating of those that are dead in trespasses and sins. You have shown NOTHING to that effect from Scriptures!

There is an unbridgeable gulf between the two views...

You believe the gospel PLAYS AN INDISPENSABLE ROLE in the REGENERATION of life. I believe it DOES NOT play any role in the begetting of life.

I believe the gospel PLAYS AN INDISPENSABLE ROLE in the CONVERSION of those whom God, by Himself alone, has begotten as His children.

I don't even know whether you appreciate the vast distinction between REGENERATION and CONVERSION?

Go back far enough in church history, and you will discover that gospel regeneration was a novelty. Look at all the historic confessions of faith that were produced post-Reformation - e.g. Three Form of Unity, WCF, Savoy, 1689, etc - and show us where gospel regeneration is believed by them?

The gospel is for the instruction and nurturing of those that have been given spiritual life. It plays no role in bringing forth spiritual life in those dead in trespasses and sins.

Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind on this matter.

We shouldn't be wasting time to hear shibboleth and platitudes from each other!

Have a good day.

Sing F Lau
"When or how a person is regenerated is only by the Spirit."

If it is ONLY by the Spirit, then where is the place left for the gospel ministry in regeneration?

"ONLY" is a very abused word. People don't really means it.

You have been insisting that regenerating is ONLY by the Holy Spirit, and the gospel ministry is the INDISPENSABLE MEANS to it. You have just repudiated your own statement that regeneration is ONLY by the Spirit!

That means you have CONDITIONED the Spirit's work of regeneration upon the gospel ministry of man!

And there are serious theological implications in this popular view! But of course, you are blind to them at the moment. May the Lord grant you light to see. Amen.