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Food is for the nourishment of the living.
(Of course many superstitious Chinese offer food to the dead!)
The gospel, the glad tidings of salvation is for the living,
the children of God, the elect whom God has regenerated.
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Awe
Hi Sing,
Please take a moment and watch this short video. I look forward to your comments.
I am having trouble understanding your view of evangelism.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JPklJzIn7k
Now I See It Well - Steve Saint and Mincaye. Randy Alcorn's interview with Steve Saint, son of Nate Saint, one of the five missionaries murdered by the Auca Indians in Ecuador in 1956, and with Mincaye, one of the Auca tribesmen who killed the missionaries.
Sing F Lau
You said you have trouble understanding my view of evangelism! Hmmm.
What is your understanding of evangelism? Please tell me. I am acquainted with the popular view! I was brought up in those fables.
I take it that by evangelism, you mean making disciples through the gospel ministry - as in Christ's command to the apostles.
I take it that disciples can only be made out of those whom God Himself has effectually called to grace and salvation. Many preachers attempt to make disciples out of sinners still dead in sins, believing that God uses them to help Him make His children.
While it is absolutely true that the preacher addresses all his hearers, it is nevertheless true that ONLY those whom God ARE saved can hear and believe the gospel as the good news of what God has done to save them. God's children are found in the multitudes, therefore the gospel message is addressed to the multitudes, in which those that ARE SAVED are found.
So many don't take God's word seriously.
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
The gospel is intended, and has relevance ONLY to those that ARE SAVED - ALREADY in the state of salvation before the gospel preaching comes to them. The gospel is the good news that instructs and informs them of their salvation by God's free and sovereign grace.
Is anything I have written above hard to understand? It may be hard to believe or accept!
So much that go around in the name of Christ is just man-centred religion... like Adam attempting to cover his nakedness with fig leaves... that's the nature of fallen man.
Sing F Lau
I have watched the short video.
Which part or what subject raised in the video that you wish me to comment on? He speaks much about walking in His trail.
And this again bring us back to the mother of all question: who will walk this trail... a man in his state of sin and death, or a man whom God himself has called out of the state of sin and death to grace and salvation, all by His free and sovereign grace?
A child of God can be persuaded to walk Christ's trail; no man, not even the most persuasive and eloquent preacher, can persuade a man still dead in trespasses and sin to walk in Christ's way! That does not deny that many preachers sincerely believe they can!
The simple maxim of the gospel truth is this: Life precedes the activities of that life. Eternal life by God's free grace precedes all the activities of that life... like the spiritual activity of hearing and believing the gospel, reverence for God, work righteousness, etc.
He also speaks of names written in God's book of Life. Many preachers preach and teach that when a man believe, his name is written in the book of life. But the Scriptures declares that names have been written in the Lamb's Book of life before the foundation of the world. NO human activities, no amount of missionary activities, no amount of parenting, etc, etc, can add one extra name in that Book of Life... no, NOT ONE.
Human activities CONTRIBUTE NOTHING toward a man's BEING as God's children. This is an SON-SHIP issue. This is what is mean by salvation by grace ALONE... and ALONE means ALONE... otherwise words have lost their specific meaning, and communication becomes futile.
Human activities CONTRIBUTE GREATLY toward a man's WELL-BEING as God's children. This is a DISCIPLE-SHIP issue. This is where the gospel ministry is relevance!
A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology.
Awe
Thanks for the reply. I agree that salvation is by grace. You said that "Human activities CONTRIBUTE NOTHING toward a man's BEING as God's children." So all of those who were savages before they heard the Gospel preached as mentioned in the video, would have gone to heaven or hell when they died?
Sing F Lau
If I understand you correctly, the answer is 'yes'. [If salvation is indeed by grace, then human activities contribute nothing toward a man's BEING as a child of God.] Those who are elect, whose names were written in the Book of Life would have gone to paradise [heaven is entered only after the glorious resurrection], the rest would have gone to hell when they die, and then to the lake of fire on the great day of judgment. Their going to heaven or the lake of fire is remotely dependent in any way upon the gospel ministry. [It depends ENTIRELY upon the free and sovereign grace of God ALONE - otherwise 'salvation by grace alone' is just a meaningless religious shibboleth!]
Those that are God's elect among those savages, God would have effectually called them out of their state of sin and death into the state of grace and salvation in Jesus Christ, perfectly fitting them for eternal glory - all on His own, without the gospel ministry whatsoever. Their BEING as God's children was entirely by the free and sovereign activities of God alone.
Such children of God who did not enjoy the gospel ministry, their WELL-BEING as God's children would have suffered a great deal, without the benefit of the gospel ministry to inform and instruct them of the truth of their glorious salvation by the free and sovereign grace of God, and the ministry of the word for their well-being as God's children while they journey through this world.
The common and popular view is this: God requires the gospel ministry to produce His children, that God sovereignly chooses to subject His divine work of effectual call to the gospel ministry! Such preachers make themselves very important - they are co-workers with God in the eternal salvation of themselves and others! This is classic 'SYNERGISM', and a classic denial of 'monergism' - eternal salvation by God's free grace alone.
Consider this passage:
"29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
Is there any human activity here for the glorification for any one of God's elect - whether they be among the savages of the Amazon or the enlighten Americans raised in the Bible Belt? Which part involves man's activity?
Please think carefully. I don't want to hear shibboleths or platitudes. Reasoned and thought through opinion are welcome.
Do all the activities of the gynaecologist, the nurses and midwives, and hosts of others play any role in you fathering your children into BEING? I know they contribute greatly towards the well-being of your children!
A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology.
Awe
Consider this verse: And I said, Who are you, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom you persecute. 16 But rise, and stand on your feet: for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of these things which you have seen, and of those things in the which I will appear to you; 17 Delivering you from the people, and from the Gentiles, to whom now I send you, 18 TO OPEN THEIR EYES, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. Acts 26
Paul was a preacher and in the chapter containing this passage, he preached the Gospel to all who heard and even told them he would that they all be like him save his chains. Now if the same man who said the above and states that Jesus told him that He would use him (Paul) to turn them (Gentiles) from darkness to light also stated the passage you reference... you tell me, is there any human activity in it? One can certainly reason and it is obvious that many have for centuries, that God indeed uses the foolishness of preaching to open the eyes of those lost in sin and without forgiveness to turn and believe. Through Paul's activities, did God open men's eyes and turn men from darkness to light?
You said: "Those that are God's elect among those savages, God would have effectually called them out of their state of sin and death into the state of grace and salvation, perfectly fitting them for eternal glory - all on His own, without the gospel ministry whatsoever." (Obviously, I think that is insane and highly unscriptural!) What problem do you have in admitting that the method God used to "call them out" was via the missionary? Isn't this what God told Paul he was to do? Think carefully.
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| Conception - the begetting of a child |
Awe, I have no problem with the passage you quoted. They perfectly explain what I have been saying. I told you no shibboleth or platitudes
You fail to distinguish the plain distinction between that which deal with the BEING of God's children, and that which deals with the WELL-BEING of God's children, the distinction between the SON-SHIP issue, and the DISCIPLE-SHIP issue. If you cannot make this biblical distinction, further discussion on this subject will avail nothing.
The difference lies here: you and I attribute difference MEANINGS to the functions to the gospel ministry: you attribute the BEING of SON-SHIP to the gospel ministry, I attribute the WELL-BEING of DISCIPLE-SHIP to the gospel ministry.
These functions of the gospel ministry: 'to open their eyes' is NOT the same as giving them life. 'To turn them from darkness to light is not the same as giving them life. 'To turn them from the power of Satan' is not the same as giving them eternal life. That they may receive the forgiveness of sin is not the same as that they may be regenerated.
All of the above have to do with the WELL-BEING of God's children. The gospel ministry is to open their eyes to see the truth of their salvation that has been bestowed by God's free grace; to turn them from darkness is to deliver them from their darkness of ignorance; to turn them from the power of Satan is to turn them from the delusion and lies of Satan; that they may receive the forgiveness of their sin is TO EXPERIENCE personally that forgiveness through faith in Christ. All these are accomplished through the gospel ministry; it promotes the well-being of God's children that He Himself alone has fathered through His Spirit based on the finished work of Jesus Christ.
BUT you would attribute these activities to the bringing into BEING of God's children by the gospel ministry.
God uses the gospel ministry NOT to "call them out" of their state of sin and death into the state of grace and salvation.
God has ordained, AND uses the gospel ministry to call His children (those already effectually called by Himself to grace and salvation by His own free and sovereign grace) out of their ignorance and lies, instruct them the gospel truths of their eternal salvation by God's free grace, turn them from lies and delusion of Satan, etc.
You asked, "What problem do you have in admitting that the method God used to "call them out" was via the missionary?"
That's a mighty good question. Before I raise the insurmountable problems of your 'gospel regeneration' view, may I suggest that you first STATE your big problem with the biblical view that I have set forth for your consideration. Maybe this way, it is less difficult for you to learn some gospel truth!
Tell me, which and what part does a man/preacher play in his predestination-to-glorification, i.e. in his ETERNAL salvation, i.e. in his BEING as a child of God?
(Please note, I am NOT inquiring which and what part does a man/preacher play in his temporal salvation, in his WELL-BEING as a child of God.)
Have a good day!
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| The nurturing of a child that has been begotten |
Awe
Speaking of shibboleths and platitudes... that's all I see in your arguments.
The main point is that only God gives life. I'm happy to stand in the vast company of faithful, God-fearing men who gave their lives to preach the Gospel and believed in what you call Gospel Regeneration. When or how a person is regenerated is only by the Spirit. We are commanded to preach and preach I will! If there is no concern over men's souls, the preacher ought to keep silent for I fear such a man would not be speaking by the Spirit.
Sing F Lau
I believe in gospel CONVERSION.
You believe in gospel REGENERATION.
You said, "When or how a person is regenerated is only by the Spirit." So does the Holy Spirit depends on your gospel ministry to regenerate one of God's elect? That's THE issue, isn't it? Is His work of regeneration dependent upon preachers activities of preaching?
I don't even know whether you have started grappling with the issue at hand - whether the gospel ministry plays any role in the regenerating of those that are dead in trespasses and sins. You have shown NOTHING to that effect from Scriptures!
There is an unbridgeable gulf between the two views...
You believe the gospel PLAYS AN INDISPENSABLE ROLE in the REGENERATION of life. I believe it DOES NOT play any role in the begetting of life.
I believe the gospel PLAYS AN INDISPENSABLE ROLE in the CONVERSION of those whom God, by Himself alone, has begotten as His children.
I don't even know whether you appreciate the vast distinction between REGENERATION and CONVERSION?
Go back far enough in church history, and you will discover that gospel regeneration was a novelty. Look at all the historic confessions of faith that were produced post-Reformation - e.g. Three Form of Unity, WCF, Savoy, 1689, etc - and show us where gospel regeneration is believed by them?
The gospel is for the instruction and nurturing of those that have been given spiritual life. It plays no role in bringing forth spiritual life in those dead in trespasses and sins.
Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind on this matter.
We shouldn't be wasting time to hear shibboleth and platitudes from each other!
Have a good day.
Sing F Lau
"When or how a person is regenerated is only by the Spirit."
If it is ONLY by the Spirit, then where is the place left for the gospel ministry in regeneration?
"ONLY" is a very abused word. People don't really means it.
You have been insisting that regenerating is ONLY by the Holy Spirit, and the gospel ministry is the INDISPENSABLE MEANS to it. You have just repudiated your own statement that regeneration is ONLY by the Spirit!
That means you have CONDITIONED the Spirit's work of regeneration upon the gospel ministry of man!
And there are serious theological implications in this popular view! But of course, you are blind to them at the moment. May the Lord grant you light to see. Amen.
