An exchanged that took place on Facebook after a Brother posted a quote from SpurgeonJason posted:
"Christian Mission--- Raise the Dead by means of preaching the Gospel."
Sing F Lau
No, no, no - way off the truth of the Scriptures!
Christian mission: make disciples of God's children, those ALREADY regenerated by the direct regenerating work of the Spirit of God WITHOUT the preaching of the gospel.
The great commission is to make DISCIPLES. It is not helping God to make His children!
And disciples can only be made out of those who are already God's children.
We can make disciples of sinners still dead in their sins!
Jason
Yes yes yes perhaps when you see Spurgeon you can let him know as the comment is from a sermon he preached from the bible.
James
I think the quote above is addressing the spiritually "dead."
Stephens
Those outside of Christ are not children of God but children of wrath. All are made in the image of God (though in a fallen state) but not all are children of God. God uses the preaching of his word to bring people from spiritual death to life. Read Eph.2.
Sing F Lau
If God uses the preaching of his word to bring people from spiritual death to life - then eternal salvation becomes dependent in some way upon the faithfulness of the preachers, the purity of the message preached, the ability of the hearers in understanding, etc, etc, etc... and many of God's children will be shut out of their eternal glory!
" 29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
Does any man play any part in this passage? Do remember the declaration here applies to ABSOLUTELY EVERY ELECT of God.
Bjack M:
Sing F Lau... I don't know where you are getting your information. No one is denying that discipleship is not one of the primary duties of a Christian, but first we must get diciples for Christ by preaching the Gospel. Romans 10:13-15.. Out of Love for God and then for people the proclamation of the Gospel is the Christians main business in life according to the Word of God and to Charles Spurgeon and any other God fearing man I have ever known or heard of Colossians 1:28-"We preach,warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom so that we may present every man perfect or mature in Christ Jesus."..So we are to warn people that they must repent and put their full faith and trust in Christ alone to save them and then we must help them to grow mature in the faith by teaching.
Sing F Lau
Bjack: True. But disciples can only be made out of God's children who are ALREADY by God's own and sovereign work.
We are in the business of making disciples of God's children, who WERE born "not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
We are not in the business of assisting God to make His children. That is what so many think they are doing- just like a silly midwife that she helped a man to father a child in his wife! A midwife can only help deliver a life that is already there!
Disciples can only be made out of God's children that He by His own power and will has born!
So, please distinguish the issues at hand.
The gospel ministry is of utmost important... but it plays NIL, ZIL, ZERO role in helping God make His children. It plays crucial role in converting them to the truth.
Jason
Sing you already know I know only God raises the dead he does so by the preaching of his word and he uses men to proclaim it. I recommend the book Soul Winner by Spurgeon we also know from scripture the verse says he who wins souls is wise knowing that I understand fully it is God alone who wins the soul unto himself I am convinced not the most beautiful eloquent speech of the benefits of heaven nor the fiery sermons against the furnace of hell will reach men unless God himself awakens a dead sinner from the grave Salvation belongs fully to God.
Sing F Lau
Good news INSTRUCT and INFORM and EDIFY.
Good news play NO part in God raising the dead.
Jesus raised the dead Lazarus... the disciples did not assist in any way. When Larazus was already raised, the disciples did help to removed the grave clothes...
That's a perfect illustration of the place and role of the gospel ministry through men.
Only those whom God has born again and given eternal life can be instructed and informed by the gospel truth of their salvation.
God raises the dead without the need of preaching.
Those ALREADY raised by God need the preaching of the gospel that they may be informed and instructed of the truth of their eternal salvation by the free grace of God.
If you still cannot see the difference, then saying anymore would be fruitless.
Stephens:
Its simple, God is sovereign and the author of salvation yet scripture is also clear it is our job to fulfill the great commission and preach the gospel to all peoples. We do not know who all the elect are and God uses the proclamation of His Word as His means for drawing His chosen people. I guess that's not simple but I tried to sum it up.
Jason
I fully understand and see the difference perhaps you need to understand God needs nothing including preaching to do anything however that does not mean he does not use it.
Bjack M
Sing F Lau enough said..I now understand your position - Hyper-calvinism. It would be scary to look into the mind of a Calvinist, much more a Hyper-Calvinist and see their thoughts on the very nature and character of God..."What comes to your mind when you think about God is the most important thing about you." AW Tozer
Jason
Bjack Sing is very reformed perhaps you have not taken the time to look at his site in fact he and I both agree with John Gill a staunch calvinist. The above comment is not about Election but rather exhorting Christians to proclaim the Gospel knowing God uses the preaching of his word to awaken sinners while God is not limited to this does not mean that he does not use it. I could say I prayed for so and so knowing it was not my prayer itself that will save anyone but rather The power of God unto salvation that saves. God does not depend on preaching prayer fasting to save his elect but yet commands all of the above.
Jason
It is at the height of arrogance pride and heresy to think that we need to preach because God is depending on us. God depends on no one but himself however he does use the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe.
Sing F Lau
Bjack: food is very important... but food is good ONLY for the living. Food plays no role in giving life to the dead. Is that simple and common sense enough or is it hyper-super-ultra abc-ism?
The gospel ministry is VERY important. But what is it important for? Was it APPOINTED by God as a means to help God to give life to the dead? Or was it appointed by God as a means to inform and instruct His children concerning their salvation by God's free grace?
Hello, I am only talking common sense. So, do not resort to labels. Let's just talk common sense, OK? It is people who can't conduct a discussion decently that resort to throwing labels!
Are you a married man, and a father? Did all those milk and diapers and baby's clothes assist you in any way to father your children? Or are those good things only for the well-being of the child fathered by you WITHOUT the helps of all those things? Can't remember? Ask thy wife! Women remember things much better
Bjack M:
Lol..I don't have to look at his site to know that he is hyper-calvinist and hyper calvinism is his foundation for everything that he has said.His whole discussion is based on this.He has just taken what you believe to the next step or to it's logical end.He just thinks God is more sovereign than you.I would have to agree with Sing.It is ridiculous to think that we have to preach the Gospel if God is not using us in the salvation of souls.If He is not using us(2 Cor 5) to IMPLORE people on CHRIST'S BEHALF to be reconciled to God.We definitely have a responsibility to WARN people.ummm..Why would we need to warn with tears in our eyes the ELECT to flee from the coming wrath to come.EPH 6:19 There is no need for the emotions or pleading or the law or fear..Just Preach Jesus Christ and Him Crucified with none of the above. Of course God uses our faithfulness to help further His Kingdom.
Sing F Lau
Bjack, what do you think of this statement?
"These angels and men thus predestined and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished." Is this hyper-calvinistic?
Stephens
Sing, hyper-calvinism is when you believe that God just does all the work and that since we are elect we can basically be couch potatoes and we never need to share our faith or anything. That is contrary to Gods Word. We are commanded to be out calling all people to repent and believe just as Jesus did early in His ministry. We need to go to the peoples who have never heard the gospel and share that truth with them. Think of John Paton for example. Read J.I. Packers book "Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God".
Jason
Stephens: lol I thought hyper- calvinism was a calvinist who had one too many energy drinks and couldn't wait to share the Gospel.
Stephens
Lol! You are being sarcastic right? Calvin and Spurgeon and Whitefield sure weren't hyper calvinists...
Sing F Lau
I wrote these words here http://pruning-deformed-branches.blogspot.com/2008/01/two-orders-compared.html
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The situation is "like a Genevan who believes that milk, diapers and baby clothes are necessary for the conception of a child calling a Chinese brother a ‘hyper-calvinist’ just because he believes that milk and baby clothes are necessary only for the growth and development of the child already delivered. How bizarre can the world get!
"It get even more bizarre when a Genevan misrepresents the Chinese brother as saying, “milk, diapers, and baby clothes are not needed at all for new born babes.” A ‘standard reformed’ brother boldly retorted, ‘If justification is prior to faith, then there is no need of faith at all; then what need is there for preaching!’ It is like a man saying to his wife, ‘darling wifey, you said milk and baby clothes are not needed for the conception and the delivery of a child, then what need is there to shop for these things for our new born baby?’ The wifey rolled her eyes and said, ‘Get me the rolling pin, quick, you fool!"
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Sing F Lau
Bjack wrote: "It is ridiculous to think that we have to preach the Gospel if God is not using us in the salvation of souls. If He is not using us(2 Cor 5) to IMPLORE people on CHRIST'S BEHALF to be reconciled to God.We definitely have a responsibility to WARN people. ummm"
Many think that they can warn those dead in sin and trespasses! Many think they has the ability to IMPLORE those still in enmity against God! What a joke! Christ Himself declared and repeated, "Except a man be born again, he CANNOT..." Many think otherwise... before those dead in trespasses and sins, and in emnity against God are given eternal life, they can be implored and persuaded and warned! Either they are liars, or Christ is!
God send forth laborers to make disciples... to IMPLORE those whom God Himself has regenerated and quickened from spiritual death - "which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" - and bestowed with eternal life... to plead with them to turn from their errors and be converted to the truth, and embrace the truth of their salvation by God's free grace, to walk soberly, godly and righteously.
Sing F Lau
Stephens@ "Sing, hyper-calvinism is when you believe that God just does all the work and that since we are elect we can basically be couch potatoes and we never need to share our faith or anything. That is contrary to Gods Word."
The Bible AFFIRMS that in eternal salvation God ALONE DOES ALL the work Himself.
" 29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
The Bibles AFFIRMS that in temporal salvation, God commands His children to work out their OWN SALVATION with fear and trembling.
Sing F Lau
Stephens said:" hyper-calvinism is when you believe that God just does all the work... and we never need to share our faith or anything. That is contrary to Gods Word."
The issue is NOT whether to share the gospel or not. It is a settled issue that the gospel ministry is very important - but important for what?
The Arminians insist that it is the means appointed by God to help Him to give life to the dead.
The Bible affirms that it is the means appointed by God to instruct and inform His children (those whom God Himself has begotten by His free grace) concerning their eternal salvation by God's grace in Jesus Christ.
Stephens
Sing you are a hyper-calvinist, it shows in the point you are trying to make. I am concerned for you my friend. Christ told us to preach the gospel to all peoples in all nations! If we don't give the gospel to the lost, how can they be saved? "Faith comes by hearing the word of God" as Paul said.
Repent of the dangerous doctrine you are promoting man. God is the author of salvation but he uses the power of his word preached by men as his means of saving us.
You aren't saved when you are born if you are elect but if you are elect that means you will eventually hear the Gospel and be saved and given new life in Christ in His perfect timing. There will be no empty seats in heaven.
Stephens
All men are given a chance to repent and believe and yet God must grant them regeneration. The bible says that Pharoe hardened his heart against Moses and was fully responsible for his actions yet it also says God heardened his heart that His power might be displayed.
Sing F Lau
Jason@ "The bible says that Pharoe hardened his heart against Moses and was fully responsible for his actions yet it also says God hardened his heart that His power might be displayed."
Does God ever harden the heart of those whom He has predestined unto eternal life, whose redemption Christ has purchased, and whom the Spirit of God has regenerated and applied that eternal salvation? God is perfectly harmonious and consistent in all His acts.
Yes, God always give enough ropes for rebels to hang themselves - and the condemnation is SOLELY upon their own head.
Yes, indeed the power and grace of God is gloriously displayed in free and sovereign activities of saving His people who were DEAD in trespasses and sins. God alone must give them ETERNAL salvation... then and only then, those that ARE SAVED are able to do something to save themselves from the perverse and wicked generation they live in!
Stephens
I think you are still missing the point. The gospel must be preached to all people because we don't know who the elect are. Different people get saved at different points of life. Paul says "how are they to hear without someone preaching?" (Rom. 10:14). Just earlier Paul says "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" and within that context he is talking about salvation has come to all people, jew and gentile, who repent and believe. Then he says they cant believe until someone is sent to them with the message. We must call all men to repent and believe because we do not know who the elect are? Does this make sense to you? Get out of the error of hyper-calvinism, its a dangerous doctrine that destroys the call to be a witness of the gospel to all people.
Sing F Lau
I wander who is missing the point! It seems you are the one missing the point. The fact that you bring up the point of the vital need to the gospel, which I strongly advocate and practiced, is CONCLUSIVE evidence that you have missed the point all along.
I did say the gospel ministry is VERY important, didn't I? You insist that it is important for one thing, I insist that it is not for that one thing but for another. Do you understand? [It is like we both insist that foof is very important. However, you insist that food is for bringing life to the dead, whereas I insist that food is for nourishing the living. Do you understand?]
Who is denying that the gospel is not to be preached to all WITHOUT distinction? It has to be preached to all BECAUSE God's children (yes, the elect that has been REGENERATED) are found among the multitudes of people.
Stephens@ "Paul says "how are they to hear without someone preaching?"... Then he says they cant believe until someone is sent to them with the message."
However, Paul DIDN'T say, "how are they to BE REGENERATED without someone preaching" DID he? It seems that you are insisting just that if I have understood what you have written so far.
Paul DIDN'T say, "... they can't BE REGENERATED until someone is sent to them with the message" DID he? It seems that you are insisting just that if have understood what you have written so far.
Paul's rhetorical questions 'how are they to HEAR?... how are they to believe?' PRESUPPOSE that we are dealing with people who are ALREADY regenerated... it is SUCH alone who are able to hear and to believe."
So many, you included, if I have not misunderstood you, insist that the preaching of the gospel is indispensable to the regeneration of sinners dead in their trespasses and sins.
Conclusion:
So these confused people, who mumble from one side of their big mouth that salvation is by the grace of God alone, and then in the next breath, from the other side of their mouth insist that that same salvation is conditioned upon the preachers' ministry, and most certainly the believer's faith in Christ too.
If God's sovereign work of saving His people is conditioned upon the activities of preachers, then, just what kind of preaching would God use to help Him to regenerate sinners dead in trespasses and sins?
