Would the most faithful preacher and his eloquentand persuasive preaching do any good
to this lad if he is still dead in his trespasses and sins?
What great good could his ministry bring to this lad
if the Lord has saved him,
i.e. called him out of his state of sin and death
to that of grace and salvation?
=====
A brother posted this quote, and some discussion followed:
"I do not come into this pulpit hoping that perhaps somebody will of his own free will return to Christ. My hope lies in another quarter. I hope that my Master will lay hold of some of them and say, 'You are mine, and you shall be mine. I claim you for myself.' My hope arises from the freeness of grace, and not from the freedom of the will." ~ C. H. Spurgeon
Sing F Lau
Spurgeon said, "I hope that my Master WILL LAY HOLD of some of them and say..."
It would reflect the gospel truth more precisely is he had said, "I hope that my Master HAS LAID HOLD of some of them and HAS SAID..."
Spurgeon's words lend credence to, if not imply, the common error of 'gospel regeneration' - i.e. AS/WHILE he preaches, Christ by His Spirit uses the preached word to regenerate sinners dead in trespasses and sins.
That is a plain and obvious error. I am not saying that Spurgeon embraced 'gospel regeneration.' I just don't know whether he embrace such error or not.
So many believe the lie of 'gospel regeneration'. This human idea will EXCLUDE many of God's elect from heaven! Think about it.
The Scriptures declare: "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which ARE SAVED it is the power of God." The gospel comes to those that ARE SAVED... i.e. presently ALREADY in the state of salvation... therefore to them, the gospel is the good news that informs them of the power of God in saving them.
To them that ARE perishing, all the most eloquent and persuasive preaching of the good news of salvation would be foolishness.
True freeness of grace EXCLUDES man's contribution and human means in our eternal salvation. That is unadulterated salvation by grace alone.
Perhaps by those words, Spurgeon has CONVERSION in mind and not regeneration. Then three hearty AMEN to the quote!
Adam
@ Sing - I am not so familiar with the term "Gospel Regeneration." As far as I can see in scripture, the Spirit most definitely uses preaching to awaken sinners. It is then His work to regenerate them. The first sermon after Pentecost comes to mind.
Thanks for the input... I'll study up on this.
Sing F Lau
I wish to inquire: what is the difference between 'to awaken' and 'to regenerate' in what you said above? Are they two distinct acts? If they are, which comes first? Is someone spiritually dead capable of being awakened to spiritual things? Or ONLY the regenerated can be awakened to the truth of their salvation by God's free grace? Honest question?
Kindly note one fundamental, non-negotiable truth when it comes to regeneration: please note "so is EVERY ONE that is born of the Spirit" in the following declaration from the lips of Christ, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."
There is ONLY one way/manner of regeneration for every elect. So, either it is EVERY ONE by means of the gospel preaching, or EVERY ONE without the means of gospel preaching.
Does when and where the wind blow dependent upon anything in the things blown at?
We will see the conversion that took place on the day of Pentecost later.
Lahry
Salvation, as I understand it, is a work of grace (unmerited favour, much the same as was received by "the prodigal son") in response to faith. Where does faith come from? God anoints the preaching of a born again believer. Sometimes this preacher uses words, but most often not.
Most folks these days that I know have little confidence in what is said in church. They are more interested in what "works" in how they live their everyday life. If we are not walking in the Spirit every minute of every day, they will easily spot our hypocrisy and loose faith in the reality of our zealous claims about God and His salvation.
All salvation is a work of God and therefore a work of Grace. it is supernatural, beyond man's carnal reach. It then becomes obvious to all that something above the natural has happened in the life of the person who is saved. Why? Well, their very nature has been changed by God. Holiness and obedience become natural acts, not religious acts. God is glorified as His power is released to whosoever will.
To God be the glory, Lahry
Adam
@Sing I hear your question, but don't you feel it is the same kind of question the scribes and pharisees asked Jesus? Maybe I'm just not following your thoughts correctly. Are you saying it is worthless to preach to heathen? What then do you do with Mark 16... "And he said to them, Go you into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned."
Sing F Lau
Brother Lahry, Eternal salvation is indeed by God's grace. Amen. So, what role does preaching play in that eternal salvation that is entirely by God's free and unmerited grace? That's the question at hand.
Sing F Lau
Brother Adam, your mention of the first sermon on the day of Pentecost is actually very beneficial. It will afford to learn something very important.
What happened by the preaching of that sermon? Were people regenerated AND converted through the preaching, OR were people converted through the preaching of the gospel? (I assume that you are aware of the vast distinction between regeneration and conversion.)
If the former, then those same people were still dead in trespasses and sins before this. If the latter, then those same people were ALREADY regenerated before that sermon. What does the text tell us about this matter?
Who were converted by that sermon on the day of Pentecost? Were they local Jews who had witnessed the ministry of Christ for 3 years? Or were they Jews specifically mentioned in Acts 2:5, the same subjects throughout Acts 2. These Jews were "devout men, out of every nation under heaven" - they have come to Jerusalem to observe the day of Pentecost.
It is said of these men, "And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?"
And they said, "we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God." They were able to discern spiritual things even before the preaching began!
My question: were these devout men regenerated men before they came to Jerusalem, or were they still men dead in trespasses and sins before they came to Jerusalem? Were they regenerated through the preaching of Peter?
Was Cornelius regenerated before Peter brought the gospel to him?
May our Lord grant us to know the truth.
Adam
@Sing - Shouldn't the point of preaching be to declare the oracles of God? If so, we need only be concerned that we declare the truth. Let God determine when/how a soul is regenerated for that is not our work.
Sing F Lau
@Adam: "Are you saying it is worthless to preach to heathen?"
Not at all... but God's children are found in the midst of heathen, they were heathen too before God made them His children by grace! They need to be reached with the gospel and be gathered into NT churches. That's the purpose of the gospel ministry - it is gathering in God's children; ... it is NOT helping God to produce His children, i.e. it has no part in regeneration.
Why would a question like "what role does preaching play in the eternal salvation that is entirely by God's free and unmerited grace" be likened to those legalistic questions posed by the scribes and the Pharisees? The question I pose has great implication: if gospel regeneration be true, then it WILL EXCLUDE many of God's elect people from heaven, from being regenerated. Do you connect?
Sing F Lau
@Adam "Shouldn't the point in preaching be to declare the oracles of God? If so, we need only be concerned that we declare the truth. Let God determine when/how a soul is regenerated for that is not our work."
Yes and amen to the first 2 sentences.
Yes and amen to the 3rd too - it is not a matter of letting God determine when and how... it is stating what God HAS REVEALED about when and how a sinner is regenerated. God has determined and fixed His manner of regenerating sinners dead in trespasses and sins.
It is our work and duty to rightly divide the word of truth that has been given to us, and teach the right thing. Do you connect?
Adam
Brother Sing - I do follow your question. I suppose the issue is that there is very little mention in scripture concerning this topic directly. We will do well to keep our minds on the Word of God. If we have wrong notions, surely it will show up in our lives. However, there are some topics that have been disputed for centuries... let us know God and His Spirit will guide us into all truth.
Sing F Lau
The issue is simple: it is either
- preaching does play a role in helping God to regenerate sinners dead in trespasses and sins.
- preaching plays NO role in the regeneration of sinners dead in trespasses and sins.
It is either one or the other... since "so is EVERY ONE that is born of the Spirit."
The dispute will continue as long as the gospel truth matters to God's children.
Does the Bible say anything about this? Is the Bible clear on this?
Amen. Let us know God by studying and rightly dividing the word of truth.
Lahry
Paul said we are all saved by grace through faith. Faith cometh by hearing, hearing by the Word of God. How can they hear if there is no preacher?
Sing F Lau
Amen and amen.
Faith cometh by hearing - indeed.
But there are so many that insist that regeneration cometh by hearing! It is the gospel ministry that draws out the grace of faith ALREADY worked within the heart by the indwelling Spirit... thus the grace of faith is evidenced and manifested in the believing.
Faith cometh by hearing... conversion from errors and lies requires the hearing of the gospel truth. Faith can only be drawn forth from a regenerated man...
And "hearing [cometh] by the Word of God."
May I suggest, and humbly request you to consider very carefully, that the 'Word of God" here is NOT the preached word, nor the written word. This is what SO VERY MANY believe.
The ability to hear spiritually is the result of the spiritual life given by the Word of God - the Word of God as in John 1:1 and Rev 19:13. Hearing is an act of life... and life must precede the activities of that life.
Jn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Re 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Sing F Lau
Brother Lahry @ "We are all saved by grace through faith" - amen and amen.
If you don't mind, read this short article and tell me what you think. You are an older Brother, and I want to learn from you. Any constructive criticism is welcome.
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2008/01/saved-by-grace-through-faith-whose.html
Sing F Lau
Lahry@ "How can they hear if there is no preacher?"
Amen and amen. No hearing of the gospel, no conversion.
Too many insist, no hearing, no regeneration.
There are very many who cannot distinguish regeneration from conversion. Regeneration is WHOLLY and SOLELY a divine work - once for all, perfect and complete, unrepeatable. Conversion is a synergistic work - God blessing the preached word to inform and enlighten and edify His children about the truth of their salvation, thus converting them to the truth.
There is a vast difference between the two. The former is wholly and solely the divine work - no human activities, including preaching, play any role in it. Regeneration is the immediate work of the Spirit of God. Just like fathering a child in the wife is the immediate work of the husband, no others - e.g. doctors, nurses, midwives, etc - are involved in the act.
May our Lord bless us to know His truth.
Adam
Bro Sing - You have caused me to think... which isn't a bad thing. See what Martyn Lloyd Jones said concerning the Chief End of Preaching:
What is Preaching? Logic on fire! Eloquent reason! Are these contradictions? Of course, they are not. Reason concerning this Truth ought to be mightily eloquent, as you see it in the case of the Apostle Paul and others. It is theology on fire. And a theology which does not take fire, I maintain, is a defective theology; or at least the man's understanding of it is defective. Preaching is theology coming through a man who is on fire. A true understanding and experience of the Truth must lead to this. . . . A man who can speak about these things dispassionately has no right whatsoever to be in a pulpit; and should never be allowed to enter one.
What is the chief end of preaching? . . . To give men and women a sense of God and His presence. . . . I can forgive a man for a bad sermon, I can forgive the preacher almost anything if he gives me a sense of God, if he gives me something for my soul, if he gives me the sense that, though he is inadequate himself, he is handling something which is very great and very glorious, if he gives me some dim glimpse of the majesty and the glory of God, the love of Christ my Saviour, and the magnificence of the Gospel. If he does that I am his debtor, and I am profoundly grateful to him. Preaching is the most amazing, and the most thrilling activity that one can ever be engaged in, because of all that it holds out for all of us in the present, and because of the glorious endless possibilities in an eternal future. ...
Sing F Lau
Thanks. Lloyd-Jones Memorial Fund paid for my 2 years at the London Theological Seminary, of which Lloyd-Jones was instrumental in founding.
I have read some of his works, especially those published under his own supervision.
He was a fine logician, as well as a preacher. Man made in the image of God is a rational creature. Illogical opinions do not convince sound-minded people. Spiritually dead people have no use for preaching. It repulses them... it is utter foolishness to them.
Lahry
@ Adam - I hope you don't mind if I spread your post above around the net a bit. ;)
@Sing - I do have your questions in my heart, but I do not have the time at the moment to address them. I am not ignoring you. I will get to you as soon as possible.
God bless you both.
Lahry
Dear Sing, I'm not really sure what your purpose is or your point for that matter. Jesus said in Matthew that except we become converted and like a little child (totally trusting in His Lordship over our lives) we could not enter in. If you look up the word for "converted", it is the same word translated "repentance".
[those still dead in trespasses and sins are not capable of repenting or converted; this is very basic, sing]
A man's sin debt is wiped away by his/her faith in the finished work of Christ. From that moment on, the Father looks at us through the Son. Our lives become hidden in His life. We are not only justified, but also sanctified, set apart. How does one know that his has in fact become a reality? Because their life begins to change from one of rebellion and sin, to obedience and holiness. God places in us the will and desire to do His good pleasure. Obeying God becomes something that we want to do rather than something we feel obligated to do. We operate our lives from the heavenly position of being saved, rather than working hoping to be good enough for God to want to save us.
Remember, Paul said that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
If you have a point with this word jangling, I would appreciate it if you would just speak your mind and get on with. We are interested in what you have to say.
Forgive me if my comments lack the eloquence they should. I'm quite tired. I've never shown interest in things that beat around the bush. If you have something to say, say it, we'll be glad to share our hearts with you. We love you and value your fellowship. God bless you and I hope to hear from you soon.
In Him,
Bro. Lahry
Adam
Sing - How do you take the following?
Acts 16:14-15
"And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended to the things which were spoken of Paul. And when she was baptized, and her household, she sought us, saying, If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us."
Now did the Lord open her heart before or after she heard the message (preaching)? What does it mean then that the Lord opened her heart?
Sing F Lau
Adam - please note two things:
First: she 'worshipped God" before the apostle Paul brought the gospel to her. What does this tell us about her spiritual state before hearing the gospel from Paul? Was Paul's preaching a means of her regeneration or conversion?
Second: "... whose heart the Lord opened..." Good question brother. Please note first that 'opening a heart to understand the gospel message' is NOT - NOT - NOT the same as the Lord quickening a man dead in trespasses and sins."
Very many hold on to the latter fiction, plainly contradicting the fact that Lydia was already a woman who worshipped God... You, as well as I know, a man dead in trespasses and sins is in ENMITY against God.
So, to answer your questions: the Lord opened her heart as she heard the message TO UNDERSTAND the message; the Lord opened her heart means giving her an understanding of the gospel truth being conveyed to her. Only a quickened living heart can be opened!
Ps 119:18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.
Sing F Lau
Lahry - that's ok. there is no more bush left to beat around. We will let the bush recover first... then try again!
Gospel ministry plays ABSOLUTELY NO ROLE in regeneration. It was ordained for the CONVERSION of those that God HAS ALREADY freely regenerated. That's the only issue focused on and beaten in this thread!
Lahry
@ Sing - Book, Chapter, and verse please.
Sing F Lau
Brother, if you insist otherwise, it would be VERY EASY for you to state just one example of "Book, Chapter, and verse " to prove your point.
I have shown several biblical examples where preaching plays NO ROLE in the REGENERATION of God's chosen people. Preaching was ordained for the instruction and CONVERSION of God's children, those already regenerated.
Did you notice them or not? Those devout Jews converted on the day of Pentecost... Lydia... Cornelius... the eunuch, etc.
Sing F Lau
You mentioned the passage in Romans 10: "Faith cometh by hearing, hearing by the Word of God. How can they hear if there is no preacher? "
I do hope you really meant "how can they HEAR if there is no preacher?" and NOT "how can they LIVE/BE REGENERATED if there is no preacher?" So many read it that way... gospel preaching is necessary for regeneration!
The subject (people) under consideration are those that are CAPABLE of hearing, i.e. they are ALREADY regenerated and made alive freely by the Spirit of God. These need the preacher to bring the gospel to them, so that they may hear the good news of their salvation, and believe the truth. ... See More
Faith cometh by hearing... therefore it is necessary that these ALREADY regenerated children of God hear the gospel, the good news of their salvation, that they may be converted to the truth of the gospel.
No gospel preaching - no conversion - that's the biblical truth.
So many insist - no gospel preaching, no REGENERATION.
Lahry
Sing - would you please give a clear definition of:
Regeneration
Conversion
As best you can? Thanks.
Sing F Lau
Brother Lahry, I didn't notice your inquiry until just now. Sorry.
Let me try to put it briefly. Tell me if it comes across as clear.
The Scripture declares that man by nature is dead in trespasses and sins. This deadness speaks of the sinner's utter inability to do anything to bring himself to God. In fact, a man by nature is in ENMITY against God, an ENEMY and a REBEL with respect to God.
Regeneration is the free and sovereign activity of the Spirit of God in bringing SUCH a sinner to spiritual life, by giving him a new nature.
Regeneration is QUICKENING the dead. God does this ALL on His own without any contribution, aid or cooperation from man. There is no exception whatsoever - "so is every one that is born of the Spirit" - every one regenerated, born again, quickened, raised from the dead, etc DIRECTLY and IMMEDIATELY without any human means. "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" - every possibility on man's part is wholly and completely excluded.
God alone must raise the dead - and that without means or instrumentality of the gospel ministry.
CONVERSION: is turning a child of God towards the gospel truth and away from errors and ignorance and falsehood by the ministry of the gospel, the means God has appointed as the means to turn His children (those He Himself has regenerated by His Spirit) to the truth of the gospel, and way from errors and falsehood.
Only the spiritually alive can be converted. Gospel truth informs and instructs and edifies... and only the spiritual can discern the spiritual truth and be converted, turned away from lies and deception and seduction... and walk in the truth of God.
I don't know if the above helps. I think Mr W. E. Best wrote a very useful treaty on Regeneration and Conversion. Get hold of it and study it.
Lahry
I like most of what you said, Sing. Certainly, no man comes except the Father draw Him. But man is not forced to come, once grace is bestowed.
What say ye of this verse?
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
[sing: grace must be bestowed first, i.e. salvation must first be applied to an elect dead in trespasses and sins, then he is capable of being called by the gospel to believe the Saviour."
Sing F Lau
Too many people make this passage to say that as many as believe in Christ ARE THEN made children of God... i.e. they are MADE children BECAUSE they believe in Christ. This fiction is based on the falsehood that those who are not born again can receive Christ, thus ignoring and contradicting the PLAINEST words of Christ in John 3:3,5.
Also, this erroneous idea equates the bestowal of 'the power to become the sons of God' as equivalent to being BORN AGAIN. Common sense tells us that the actual birth MUST PRECEDE the experience of the right of sonship upon believing.
How, in what sense, does believing in Christ give a believer to right and authority to claim that God is his Father?
Christ said, 'whosoever believes HAS (possesses) eternal life." So, whoever believes in Him, has the right and authority to claim that he has been given eternal life... I.E. he has been born again by God, "which WERE - WERE - WERE born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. He has the right and authority to claim God as his Father!
John 1:12-13 read:
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
"THEM THAT BELIEVE" is a PRESENT active participle; i.e. the believing ones.
"WHICH WERE BORN" is AORIST indicative passive.
"Were born" must be prior to "them that believe.".
The fact of the birth by God must be first.
The experience of the privilege - claiming God as one's Father - comes later, by as many as believe and receive Christ.
Now let me hear what you read out of the verse.
Lahry
As I understand it, it says He gave them the "power" to "become", not that they are actually "yet". So I'm curious as to how you understand this and how it fits into what you were attempting to explain earlier?
Sing F Lau
Words have meaning, and words are to be understood in their context. In order for them to believe, they must have been born of God, therefore ALREADY born sons.
But prior to believing, these already-born sons DO NOT YET have the power (right and authority) to call God as their Father. Before their believing there is no evidence that they are God's children, born of God.
The BIRTH itself must PRECEDE the ACT of believing. And the ACT of believing must PRECEDE the bestowal of the power (right and authority) to become God's children, to claim oneself as God's children.
I thought this is so plain and obvious.
Imagine a man has fathered a child in his wife, and the child was born in due time. But until this child believes the truth of his being by the father he does not have the power (right and authority) to claim himself as the son of the man!
The FACT of sonship precedes the EXPERIENCE of the blessings of that sonship.
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2008/01/saved-by-grace-through-faith-whose.html
Sing F Lau
Lahry@ "How can they hear if there is no preacher?"
Amen and amen. No hearing of the gospel, no conversion.
Too many insist, no hearing, no regeneration.
There are very many who cannot distinguish regeneration from conversion. Regeneration is WHOLLY and SOLELY a divine work - once for all, perfect and complete, unrepeatable. Conversion is a synergistic work - God blessing the preached word to inform and enlighten and edify His children about the truth of their salvation, thus converting them to the truth.
There is a vast difference between the two. The former is wholly and solely the divine work - no human activities, including preaching, play any role in it. Regeneration is the immediate work of the Spirit of God. Just like fathering a child in the wife is the immediate work of the husband, no others - e.g. doctors, nurses, midwives, etc - are involved in the act.
May our Lord bless us to know His truth.
Adam
Bro Sing - You have caused me to think... which isn't a bad thing. See what Martyn Lloyd Jones said concerning the Chief End of Preaching:
What is Preaching? Logic on fire! Eloquent reason! Are these contradictions? Of course, they are not. Reason concerning this Truth ought to be mightily eloquent, as you see it in the case of the Apostle Paul and others. It is theology on fire. And a theology which does not take fire, I maintain, is a defective theology; or at least the man's understanding of it is defective. Preaching is theology coming through a man who is on fire. A true understanding and experience of the Truth must lead to this. . . . A man who can speak about these things dispassionately has no right whatsoever to be in a pulpit; and should never be allowed to enter one.
What is the chief end of preaching? . . . To give men and women a sense of God and His presence. . . . I can forgive a man for a bad sermon, I can forgive the preacher almost anything if he gives me a sense of God, if he gives me something for my soul, if he gives me the sense that, though he is inadequate himself, he is handling something which is very great and very glorious, if he gives me some dim glimpse of the majesty and the glory of God, the love of Christ my Saviour, and the magnificence of the Gospel. If he does that I am his debtor, and I am profoundly grateful to him. Preaching is the most amazing, and the most thrilling activity that one can ever be engaged in, because of all that it holds out for all of us in the present, and because of the glorious endless possibilities in an eternal future. ...
Sing F Lau
Thanks. Lloyd-Jones Memorial Fund paid for my 2 years at the London Theological Seminary, of which Lloyd-Jones was instrumental in founding.
I have read some of his works, especially those published under his own supervision.
He was a fine logician, as well as a preacher. Man made in the image of God is a rational creature. Illogical opinions do not convince sound-minded people. Spiritually dead people have no use for preaching. It repulses them... it is utter foolishness to them.
Lahry
@ Adam - I hope you don't mind if I spread your post above around the net a bit. ;)
@Sing - I do have your questions in my heart, but I do not have the time at the moment to address them. I am not ignoring you. I will get to you as soon as possible.
God bless you both.
Lahry
Dear Sing, I'm not really sure what your purpose is or your point for that matter. Jesus said in Matthew that except we become converted and like a little child (totally trusting in His Lordship over our lives) we could not enter in. If you look up the word for "converted", it is the same word translated "repentance".
[those still dead in trespasses and sins are not capable of repenting or converted; this is very basic, sing]
A man's sin debt is wiped away by his/her faith in the finished work of Christ. From that moment on, the Father looks at us through the Son. Our lives become hidden in His life. We are not only justified, but also sanctified, set apart. How does one know that his has in fact become a reality? Because their life begins to change from one of rebellion and sin, to obedience and holiness. God places in us the will and desire to do His good pleasure. Obeying God becomes something that we want to do rather than something we feel obligated to do. We operate our lives from the heavenly position of being saved, rather than working hoping to be good enough for God to want to save us.
Remember, Paul said that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
If you have a point with this word jangling, I would appreciate it if you would just speak your mind and get on with. We are interested in what you have to say.
Forgive me if my comments lack the eloquence they should. I'm quite tired. I've never shown interest in things that beat around the bush. If you have something to say, say it, we'll be glad to share our hearts with you. We love you and value your fellowship. God bless you and I hope to hear from you soon.
In Him,
Bro. Lahry
Adam
Sing - How do you take the following?
Acts 16:14-15
"And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended to the things which were spoken of Paul. And when she was baptized, and her household, she sought us, saying, If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us."
Now did the Lord open her heart before or after she heard the message (preaching)? What does it mean then that the Lord opened her heart?
Sing F Lau
Adam - please note two things:
First: she 'worshipped God" before the apostle Paul brought the gospel to her. What does this tell us about her spiritual state before hearing the gospel from Paul? Was Paul's preaching a means of her regeneration or conversion?
Second: "... whose heart the Lord opened..." Good question brother. Please note first that 'opening a heart to understand the gospel message' is NOT - NOT - NOT the same as the Lord quickening a man dead in trespasses and sins."
Very many hold on to the latter fiction, plainly contradicting the fact that Lydia was already a woman who worshipped God... You, as well as I know, a man dead in trespasses and sins is in ENMITY against God.
So, to answer your questions: the Lord opened her heart as she heard the message TO UNDERSTAND the message; the Lord opened her heart means giving her an understanding of the gospel truth being conveyed to her. Only a quickened living heart can be opened!
Ps 119:18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.
Sing F Lau
Lahry - that's ok. there is no more bush left to beat around. We will let the bush recover first... then try again!
Lahry
@ Sing - Book, Chapter, and verse please.
Sing F Lau
Brother, if you insist otherwise, it would be VERY EASY for you to state just one example of "Book, Chapter, and verse " to prove your point.
I have shown several biblical examples where preaching plays NO ROLE in the REGENERATION of God's chosen people. Preaching was ordained for the instruction and CONVERSION of God's children, those already regenerated.
Did you notice them or not? Those devout Jews converted on the day of Pentecost... Lydia... Cornelius... the eunuch, etc.
Sing F Lau
You mentioned the passage in Romans 10: "Faith cometh by hearing, hearing by the Word of God. How can they hear if there is no preacher? "
I do hope you really meant "how can they HEAR if there is no preacher?" and NOT "how can they LIVE/BE REGENERATED if there is no preacher?" So many read it that way... gospel preaching is necessary for regeneration!
The subject (people) under consideration are those that are CAPABLE of hearing, i.e. they are ALREADY regenerated and made alive freely by the Spirit of God. These need the preacher to bring the gospel to them, so that they may hear the good news of their salvation, and believe the truth. ... See More
Faith cometh by hearing... therefore it is necessary that these ALREADY regenerated children of God hear the gospel, the good news of their salvation, that they may be converted to the truth of the gospel.
No gospel preaching - no conversion - that's the biblical truth.
So many insist - no gospel preaching, no REGENERATION.
Lahry
Sing - would you please give a clear definition of:
Regeneration
Conversion
As best you can? Thanks.
Sing F Lau
Brother Lahry, I didn't notice your inquiry until just now. Sorry.
Let me try to put it briefly. Tell me if it comes across as clear.
The Scripture declares that man by nature is dead in trespasses and sins. This deadness speaks of the sinner's utter inability to do anything to bring himself to God. In fact, a man by nature is in ENMITY against God, an ENEMY and a REBEL with respect to God.
Regeneration is the free and sovereign activity of the Spirit of God in bringing SUCH a sinner to spiritual life, by giving him a new nature.
Regeneration is QUICKENING the dead. God does this ALL on His own without any contribution, aid or cooperation from man. There is no exception whatsoever - "so is every one that is born of the Spirit" - every one regenerated, born again, quickened, raised from the dead, etc DIRECTLY and IMMEDIATELY without any human means. "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" - every possibility on man's part is wholly and completely excluded.
God alone must raise the dead - and that without means or instrumentality of the gospel ministry.
CONVERSION: is turning a child of God towards the gospel truth and away from errors and ignorance and falsehood by the ministry of the gospel, the means God has appointed as the means to turn His children (those He Himself has regenerated by His Spirit) to the truth of the gospel, and way from errors and falsehood.
Only the spiritually alive can be converted. Gospel truth informs and instructs and edifies... and only the spiritual can discern the spiritual truth and be converted, turned away from lies and deception and seduction... and walk in the truth of God.
I don't know if the above helps. I think Mr W. E. Best wrote a very useful treaty on Regeneration and Conversion. Get hold of it and study it.
Lahry
I like most of what you said, Sing. Certainly, no man comes except the Father draw Him. But man is not forced to come, once grace is bestowed.
What say ye of this verse?
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
[sing: grace must be bestowed first, i.e. salvation must first be applied to an elect dead in trespasses and sins, then he is capable of being called by the gospel to believe the Saviour."
Sing F Lau
Too many people make this passage to say that as many as believe in Christ ARE THEN made children of God... i.e. they are MADE children BECAUSE they believe in Christ. This fiction is based on the falsehood that those who are not born again can receive Christ, thus ignoring and contradicting the PLAINEST words of Christ in John 3:3,5.
Also, this erroneous idea equates the bestowal of 'the power to become the sons of God' as equivalent to being BORN AGAIN. Common sense tells us that the actual birth MUST PRECEDE the experience of the right of sonship upon believing.
How, in what sense, does believing in Christ give a believer to right and authority to claim that God is his Father?
Christ said, 'whosoever believes HAS (possesses) eternal life." So, whoever believes in Him, has the right and authority to claim that he has been given eternal life... I.E. he has been born again by God, "which WERE - WERE - WERE born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. He has the right and authority to claim God as his Father!
John 1:12-13 read:
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
"THEM THAT BELIEVE" is a PRESENT active participle; i.e. the believing ones.
"WHICH WERE BORN" is AORIST indicative passive.
"Were born" must be prior to "them that believe.".
The fact of the birth by God must be first.
The experience of the privilege - claiming God as one's Father - comes later, by as many as believe and receive Christ.
Now let me hear what you read out of the verse.
Lahry
As I understand it, it says He gave them the "power" to "become", not that they are actually "yet". So I'm curious as to how you understand this and how it fits into what you were attempting to explain earlier?
Sing F Lau
Words have meaning, and words are to be understood in their context. In order for them to believe, they must have been born of God, therefore ALREADY born sons.
But prior to believing, these already-born sons DO NOT YET have the power (right and authority) to call God as their Father. Before their believing there is no evidence that they are God's children, born of God.
The BIRTH itself must PRECEDE the ACT of believing. And the ACT of believing must PRECEDE the bestowal of the power (right and authority) to become God's children, to claim oneself as God's children.
I thought this is so plain and obvious.
Imagine a man has fathered a child in his wife, and the child was born in due time. But until this child believes the truth of his being by the father he does not have the power (right and authority) to claim himself as the son of the man!
The FACT of sonship precedes the EXPERIENCE of the blessings of that sonship.
Lahry
Sing, with all due respect, it appears to me that you have been listening to many voices and are quite confused. May I suggest that you just spend time with the Holy Spirit and the Word and let Him reveal God's hope in your heart?
All of the things you write wreak of philosophy. You seem to wrangle over what comes first, the chicken or the egg. There are many things to be concerned about before attempting to split hairs.
Sing F Lau
Hmmmm! Maybe I have been reading the passage too many times... and hearing the Holy Spirit speaks distinctly from the written words the order of various events happening, thus making plain what it means to be given the power to become children of God.
If one is not yet born of God, how could he ever believe? Surely this is a most basic and fundamental issue in any discussion on the salvation of sinners. And so to be given the power to become God's children that is CONDITIONED on believing CANNOT possibly be related to being born as God's children.
This is common sense, not philosophy! Maybe you have become too sophisticated to understand simple things!
Lahry
Sing F Lau
Lahry, you are a much older man, and have probably seen lots of things I have not even thought of! But to accuse me of baiting people and manipulating others is quite amusing! I do want to engage sound minded students of God's word to study God's word. Only the ignorant can be baited and manipulated... and I have not desire to waste time with such.
One way to get the attention of sound-minded students is to get them to re-examine a subject by asking relevant and direct questions. If you wish me to draw pictures on the ground, then let me know
I fear many won't participate or feel comfortable for fear that their beliefs are shown to be in error. I am always thankful when I am shown my errors... James 5:19-20.
Going back to the truth of Jesus Christ is the sole purpose of my activity on Facebook.
Lahry
I do not find this conversation any longer productive. So I bow out and bid thee well.
Conclusion:
People don't seem to grasp the simple issue - the gospel ministry plays no role in God's work of regenerating sinners dead in their trespasses and sins! They would confound, and mistake the function of the gospel ministry for the conversion of God's children (regenerated elect) as the means for the regeneration of spiritually dead sinners.