Things New and Old: Does God impose such a dilemma upon His servants?

https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10208948114035567
April 25, 2017

Does God impose such a dilemma upon His servants?

Or it is errors of sincere men that created such dilemmas upon themselves?

A popular RB theologian wrote this:
"I like the Calvinist who can affirm limited atonement (in terms of efficacy) and yet declare the following: "Go and tell every man, without exception that here is the good news for him; Christ is dead for him; and if he will take him; and accept of his righteousness, he shall have him." ~ Edward Fisher

=======

A thought crossed my mind:

I hope such a Calvinist does believe that Christ died for His people, the elect, alone.

Does the same Calvinist affirm limited atonement in terms of intent? I know many Calvinists who affirm the shibboleth "sufficient for all, efficient for the elect." They believe that Christ died for the whole world without exception, therefore the atonement was sufficient for all without exception, but it is only efficient for the elect.

Assuming that Christ died for His people, i.e. those elected and given to Him by the Father, then there will be those for whom Christ did not die.

Does such a Calvinist bear false witness when he declares to a man that Christ died for him [ in fact, and no fiction] if the man happens to be a non-elect and Christ didn't die for him? (Of course, no one is able to know whether such a man is elected or not. However, we most certainly know that they are non-elect, bypassed and left to their own sins.)

Does such a Calvinist lie, and make Christ a liar for proclaiming that Christ died for the man when Christ hadn't died for him (if the man is a non-elect.)

Does that amount to bearing false witness? Is bearing false witness, in Christ's name and for His sake, a sin?

Is this a laughing matter? A non-issue?

(John 3:16 involves the same issue.)

Just inquiring.

What's your solution to resolve such dilemmas?
========

67 Comments

Ann Atwood Fraley
With their belief in an elect, but the need to believe yourself into their midst, I call Calvinism the worst of both worlds.

GaoHan
How?

Sing
Good question. Ask till you understand, then shoot if needed.

GaoHan
Calvinism the worst of both worlds? What worlds?

Buddy Palma
That has also crossed my mind, bro. Lau. How are we to consider those who are false witnesses, teaching a false gospel, therefore preaching a false Christ? Is it not that they are called false brethren? If so, are they not fitted to destruction? I don't want to be judgmental for "Salvation is of the Lord"! What's your take on this, bro. Lau?

GaoHan
Unless you are 100% sure what you are saying, please do not call fellow believers false brethren. Do not forget we are answerable to God for all our words and thoughts.

Sing
"False brethren" are brethren indeed, but brethren who are preaching and teaching FALSEHOOD. It relates to their false teaching, not their persons.

The Apostles use the term often.

GaoHan

Falsehood as compared to what standard? Do you mind providing an example?

Sing
Scriptures alone.

For example, the Scriptures say Christ came to die for and to save His people, those whom God the Father had elected and given to Christ and thus His, then to teach otherwise is to teach falsehood.

God's children are capable of embracing and teaching falsehood.... examples are everywhere in the Scriptures.

The ministry of the word is intended to CONVERT God's children from falsehood to His truth.

Buddy Palma
That's why I said I am not/don't want to be judgmental for "Salvation of the Lord". Yes, plain and simple "false brethren", that is what the Scriptures say - II Cor.11:26.

GaoHan
Christ came to die for and to save His people...there are many bible verses say otherwise e.g. John 1:29, 3:16, 6:51, 12:32 etc. You may interpret these verses based on your theological stance now but put yourself in the context when Jesus spoke to his audience 2000 years ago, they did not have the sophistication of theological training as of today. You may interpret your way but do not call other falsehood because salvation does not depend on the interpretation of theses verses. I know only the elect will be saved but this end result does not preclude Jesus from loving the sinners. I just wonder whether you say God loves you to people in your church. How do you know they are all saved? If one of them are not saved, is your statement false? Just imagine when Jesus preached to the people, he said I am the light of the world, whoever follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life. Did he talk only to the elect or to all the people there? My point is, do not jump into conclusions so quickly, you are not the only one read and interpret the Bible. There are many similarities but few differences and those differences were not crucial in my opinion.

J.E. Griffis
They preach "another" gospel" Gal. 1:6. Which is not the Gospel.Gal 1:7

GaoHan
Please explain what is another gospel as mentioned in Gal?

Sing
Good request.

GaoHan
And also compare with what Calvinists preach so that we can be sure they are preaching another Gospel.

Sing
GaoHan, what is the gospel (lower case 'g' - upper case G refers to one of the four books of the NT) in your understanding

Until we can agree on what constitutes the gospel as delivered to us in the Scriptures, it is futile to talk about another gospel.

I will let J.E. Griffis explain the "another gospel" pointed out in Gal 1:6.

Buddy Palma
Yes, bro. Griffis, so how are we to regard them? Unbelievers/ unsaved/deceivers, what bro.?

GaoHan
Don't pretend to be God.

Sing
Koh, why do you say that the act of regarding others in those categories - "unbelievers/ unsaved/deceivers..." amounts to pretending to be God?

Were the apostles acting like God when they used those designations to describe others?

Buddy Palma
I am just asking? For there are many Bible verses that refer to them as such.

Buddy Palma
One verse says "For there are 'false brethren' among you" so that's it. No more elaboration.

GaoHan
Unless you are sure they are false teachings and not merely different in interpretations of the bible.

GaoHan
I may have a different understanding on atonement, is there any good if I label anyone who understands differently as falsehood?

Buddy Palma
Koh. Why do you think there are different understandings and different interpretations of the Scriptures? Actually, there are preachers who are true and are contextual in biblical/scriptural interpretation. Other than that falsehood will arise. A verse without a context is a pretext. There is a demarcation line between the spirit of truth and the spirit of error as the beloved John emphasized. The regenerated elect of God is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and is guided by the Spirit of Truth. How else can he run contrary to/be against the very Word of God? But the child of God knows that difference.

GaoHan
The Bible was written almost 2000 years ago in languages that we do not know. The Bible I read is a translation in Chinese. Nobody is able to claim to know the exact meaning of all words but we do know the essential teachings. I am not a Calvinist but I don't like a fellow Christian to label them as unbelievers or unsaved or deceivers. All these arguments came from the article written by Pastor Lau. I would prefer for specific rebuttals instead of generic one. Unfortunately, I am just a layman and am not in a position to debate with you or other people that are more knowledgeable. E.g. when I read John 3:16, the world to me is the world, whosoever means whoever. Believe means an act of believing. When the gospel was written, there was no New Testament, I imagine how will I understand when I first listened to Jesus.

Buddy Palma
Bro. Lau is a Malaysian, I am a Filipino and you are Chinese. You may not be a pastor like us but we have the same Holy Spirit to guide us into all TRUTH, whatever Bible languages/versions we are using. To get the real meaning, we have to know the context by comparing scriptures with scriptures. For example, you mentioned John 3:16 and you defined each term, world, whosoever, and believe. In John 3:16, if you mean the whole human world that God so loved, then universal redemption is what you are implying. If that so, then there's no need for Christ to die on the cross in the first place. If you have time bro. Koh, pls. read the entire 17th chapter of John and you can find at least 4 kinds of world. But John 3:16 is referring to the "elect world". The "whosoever believeth" are believers ALREADY in Christ as being born of God - I John 5:1. Notice John 17:9, Christ prays only to those elect whom God has given to Him, for they are God's. Those are just a few examples to share with you bro. Koh and I have to rest the issue awhile, for this topic is a very lengthy one. Thanks.

GaoHan
I am a Malaysian too, came from the same town as Pastor Lau but not so good in English. I do not believe in universal redemption but only the elect will be saved. This does not, to me contradict with Loved the world and died for all human beings. If John meant only for the elect in Ch 3, John would make it very clear as he did in other chapters.

Buddy Palma
Ah ok, I thought you are Chinese, sorry for that. It's good you don't believe in universal redemption and only the elect will be saved, bro. you are in the right teaching. John made it clear on the issue, only the problem lies with the interpreter. Compare Scriptures with Scriptures.

Buddy Palma
Pls. read first the whole chapter of John 17 bro.

GaoHan
This is Jesus' Farewell Discourse, so the context and listeners were his 11 disciples. It is different from other chapters in John.

GaoHan
I have finished reading Ch 17. We should start another post to continue our discussion. Thank you.

Buddy Palma
Yes, bro. That was before His crucifixion. The gist of the matter is, HE is not mentioning here one world only. And HE is not praying for the whole human world (not for all the people of the world) but for His elect world ( elect people out of all the human world) only.

GaoHan
In this context, the elect was referred to as the 11 disciples who were with him. Please read 17:12.

GaoHan
No where in this chapter expressed directly and clearly that God does not love the world.

Buddy Palma
GaoHan. He is referring to those who were given eternal life which the Father has given to Him - (vs.2-6). They are the ones that our Lord Jesus Christ is praying for - (v.9). That's why, you have to settle the paradox/controversy regarding John 3:16, comparing with other verses which mention other worlds.

Sing
GaiHan @ "Unfortunately I am just a layman and am not in a position to debate with you or other people that are more knowledgeable."
=======
No debate is needed. Just let the Scriptures speak for itself.
A few presuppositions when we come to the Bible:
- The Scriptures can be understood by God's children who have a spiritual mind and will rightly divide it. Divine truth can be known. There are carnally minded children of God.
- The Scriptures are harmonious and consistent in all its teaching. There are no contradictions in the Bible. Thus if an interpretation of a passage of the Scriptures contradicts other parts of the Scriptures, then it cannot be correct.
- The Scriptures are capable of giving us sound and solid doctrines - requiring what to be believed. That's presupposed throughout the Scriptures. See 2Tim 3:16, 4:1-4.

Take comfort. Aquila and Priscilla, a tent-making couple, were capable of teaching mighty Apollos. They were soundly taught by Apostle Paul!!! When you have the truth, you can teach the so-called theologians with DDs and ThDs behind their names! That's the fun I have.

If you don't have the truth... you will need to waffle this and that; e.g. the Bible is incapable of being properly understood to give us exact and precise doctrines!

Are the names of the saved people written in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world, or when each one believes in the Lord Jesus Christ? Isn't this a simple and elementary question?

Sing
GaoHan @ "I do not believe in universal redemption but only the elect will be saved. This does not, to me contradict with 'loved the world and died for all human beings." If John meant only for the elect in Ch 3, John would have made it very clear as he did in other chapters."

========
You made statements. I wish to understand, thus my questions.
Q1. Why will only the elect be saved?
Didn't Jesus Christ die equally for all to save all

Q2. Why won't the non-elect be saved?

Q3. What did Jesus actually do when He died for all human beings? (Q based on your understanding that He died for every human being)
- Did He actually accomplish anything?
- Did He just make something possible?

Q4 Did Christ also die for those who were already in hell? If He did, what did His death for them do?

In the Gospel of John, "world" is used in distinction and to counter against the popular Jewish idea that God is just for the Jews. The "world" does not mean "all human beings" as you and many others would insist. To put that meaning will contradict many passages in the same Gospel of John.

No, God's elect is found among people of all tongues, nations tribes and people. The same John describes the world that God so loved and redeemed by His Son Jesus Christ.

Rev 5:9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

Rev 7:9
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands.

Sing
"...false brethren..."

Brethren they are, but brethren afflicted with falsehood.

Now, you show them the way out of such falsehood.

Buddy Palma
Yes, bro. Lau. II Tim.2:24-26.

Sing
2Tim 2
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

"False brethren"
- they OPPOSE themselves...
- they refuse to ACKNOWLEDGE the truth of God
- they are under the snare of the devil's lies.

Apt to teach these brethren afflicted with falsehood, teach them the truth of God patiently. The Lord may yet have mercy on them, stiffnecked brethren.

Acknowledging the truth will recover them out of the snare of the devil.

Buddy Palma
What more can we say? Bro. Lau, that is very clear.

Buddy Palma
Oh, thank you, bro. Onyekachi.

Buddy Palma
Primitive Baptist bro. Onyekachi.

Buddy Palma
Ok, thanks.

Sing
Unless you are sure they are false teachings and not merely different in interpretations of the bible.
================

Let me make some statements and see if we can agree.

1. The Bible can be understood. It is a truth assumed and presupposed. See 2Ti 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. I hope we can agree on this proposition.

2. Different interpretations can't possibly be all correct; A and non-A can't possibly be both correct even though both may be completely erroneous.

3. Falsehood consists in the interpretation of Scriptures that contradicts and repudiates the other parts of Scriptures.

Woolly people see truth as relative, i.e. the Bible have many shades of meaning on any one doctrine, each is merely a matter of different interpretations. All are correct, some interpretations have more truth, others have less truth, but they are all true to a different degree. There is no definitive truth. No one embraces falsehood!

Read the Gospels and the Epistles: all of them show that TRUTH can be known and that necessitated the exposure and condemnation of falsehood. See Christ's dealings with the religious people of His days; see Paul's dealing with falsehood in churches in his epistles.

Good night.

Sing
I may have a different understanding on atonement, is there any good if I label anyone who understands differently as falsehood?
===========

There is no good labelling others with all sorts of nasty names.

There is good when people with different understandings on atonement are willing to sit down to state and prove their understanding from the Scriptures, like the Berean believers.

I have relearned a lot of things when I stopped parroting what I had been told and started searching the Scriptures and asking tough and honest questions, not the smart-alecky rhetorical ones.

Obviously, NEARLY everyone thinks his understanding of a certain topic is the one that conforms to the Scriptures. Self-conceit is a real evil among God's children; it explains Paul's injunction, "Examine yourself." Those with the Berean spirit are willing to search and learn to be conformed to the Scriptures

This is a solemn injunction upon all bible students:

2Ti 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

Many ought to be ashamed of themselves because they TWIST and PERVERT the word of God; they misrepresent the word of truth. That already happened during the Apostles' time. But so many don't know how to blush anymore when their interpretations are shown to blatantly contradict and repudiate the plain statements of the Scriptures.

Sing
"For God SO LOVE the world..."
How did God so love, may I ask?

Many insist on these notions:
- God so loved because He loved the LARGEST NUMBER possible, i.e. every member of the human race; yes, even those who had died and gone to hell!
- God so loved because He makes the most sincere and well-meant offer of salvation to all, absolutely all; yes, even those already in hell.

I have a different understanding. You are free to disagree.
Take a look here:
John 3:16 - How did God so love?
THINGS-NEW-AND-OLD.BLOGSPOT.COM
https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2008/02/john-316-how-did-god-so-love.html

Sing
GaoHan @ "I do not believe in universal redemption but only the elect will be saved. This does not, to me contradict with Loved the world and died for all human beings. If John meant only for the elect in Ch 3, John would have made it very clear as he did in other chapters."
========

From the same John, in the same book.

John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep."
Q. For whom did He die for and give His life a ransom?

John 10:17
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Q. For whom did Christ lay down His life?
Q. For all human beings, or for those whom the Father elected and gave to Him?

Q. Do you want John's answer or your own idea?

John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

Notice the direct connections...
- Christ lay down His life... for His sheep.
- The sheep are given to Him by the Father.
- Christ gives the sheep eternal life.

Not difficult, is it? Pretty plain statement to me.

What did Jesus say about why He came into the world?
Men have different ideas about why Christ came into the world!
But we want to know what Christ Himself said.

John 6:
38 "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

The Father's will for sending the Saviour has to do with those whom the Father HAS GIVEN to Christ; others are NOT in the will of the Father for sending His Son to be the Saviour.

Christ said that He should lose nothing, no, not one. Why?

Because He lived and died and rose triumphantly for them, and they shall likewise be raised to glory. Christ's life and death had in view ONLY those given to Him by the Father, those whose names were written in the Lamb's Book of Life from before the foundation of the world.

Who exactly are embraced in God's will of sending the Son in the work of redemption?

Errors we have innocently imbibed are the hardest things to unlearn and unload!

GaoHan
There are other verses in John that say otherwise. John 1:29, 3:16. Just like certain verses say Jesus is man and certain verses indicate he is God. Should some verses nullify the other verses? Is God not three in one, one in three? How? There are many things recorded in the Bible beyond our understanding.

Sing
John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 17:9
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

So, how?

Mat 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Isn't this plain enough?

1. He came to save His people.
Who are His people? Those that belong to Him, those whom the Father has given to Him out of the fallen race of Adam.

John 6:
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

2. He came to save His people from their sins.
- Sins brought condemnation and death.
- Christ's redemptive work SAVES His people from condemnation and death; He secured for them justification and eternal life.

Rom 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Everyone for whom Christ lived and died as a Substitute will receive the gift of eternal life, freely by God's grace, while dead in trespasses and sins.

Only having received that gift of eternal life, is a man capable of responding to the call to do something.

Spiritual life MUST PRECEDE spiritual activities.

GaoHan
My sheep hear my voice, Jesus said. In the Bible context, sheep belong to many shepherds were kept in one place and guarded by a gatekeeper. When a shepherd came in the morning and called, only his sheep would follow him because they recognized his voice. The other sheep will follow their own shepherds. My understanding of John will not make God less God.

Sing
Christ said this: one fold, and one shepherd.
You say: many folds, and many shepherds.

John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

GaoHan
Sing That was your conclusion. I just merely stating the context, sheep hear the voice of their respective shepherds.

GaoHan
For God so loved the world (kosmos), but not all have the eternal life, why? Isn't it very clear from John 3:16?

Sing
You are probably saying that it is VERY CLEAR that John 3:16 says that believing is the means exercised by those WITHOUT everlasting life to obtain everlasting life.

That's a popular idea. But John 3:16 says no such thing. It is a common mistake to think that John 3:16 is making an offer to those WITHOUT everlasting life, that if they will only believe, then they will receive everlasting life. It is a popular notion,

John 3:16 is making a declaration or statement of fact about whosoever that believes, i.e. every believing ones THAT they have everlasting life.

God so loved that He gave His only begotten Son to secure eternal salvation for His people and the evidence of such divine love is the believing ones, they have been freely given everlasting life WHEN they were dead in trespasses and sins. Believing is the result and evidence of having been given everlasting life.

Believing by those without everlasting life in order to get everlasting life is just a FABLE.

2Ti 4:4

And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

GaoHan
Sing why believing must be the result? Can't Believing and everlasting life happen at the same time? We are not God, only God can answer.

Sing
Christ already answered that in the most solemn manner:

John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

The new birth that imparts everlasting life must necessarily precede - both logically and chronologically - the act of believing, an activity of the life imparted.

Life, both logically and necessarily, precedes the activities of that life; one is the cause, the other an effect. This is most elementary.

GaoHan
Sing, Logical for physical life but is it also appropriate for spiritual life?

Sing
GaoHan, Jesus is speaking of spiritual life.

In the new birth, spiritual life is bestowed to one who was spiritually dead, and is incapable of any spiritual activity.

Eph 2
1¶And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;...
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)