Things New and Old

Ancient truths revealed in the Scriptures are often forgotten, disbelieved or distorted, and therefore lost in the passage of time. Such ancient truths when rediscovered and relearned are 'new' additions to the treasury of ancient truths.

Christ showed many new things to the disciples, things prophesied by the prophets of old but hijacked and perverted by the elders and their traditions, but which Christ reclaimed and returned to His people.

Many things taught by the Apostles of Christ have been perverted or substituted over the centuries. Such fundamental doctrines like salvation by grace and justification have been hijacked and perverted and repudiated by sincere Christians. These doctrines need to be reclaimed and restored to God's people.

There are things both new and old here. "Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things" 2Ti 2:7.

Tuesday, October 2, 2012

Damnable Heresy 6: Considered



September 20
(6th in a series)
A brother who calls himself a 'true Calvinist' said:
I must admit I was once a Hyper-Calvinist of the Hardshell type, but through the grace of our Lord was brought back again to believe once more the Bible by correct and scientific exegesis, especially in rightly dividing the Word of truth. While actually answering you by and bye, I would like to show Hardshell Hyper-Calvinism is characterized by the following common presuppositions:

6. Hyper-Calvinists do not usually respect the ordo salutis or order of salvation and fail to put distinctions of them, namely, foreknowledge, predestination, regeneration (effectual call), justification, sanctification and glorification. They make a false assumption that since a person is foreknown and predestinated to salvation, that person must be already justified and glorified. There is no such thing as Saving Faith and evangelical repentance in time. To affirm the necessity of these graces to salvation is to deny God’s decree in eternity.

(6 of 11, 5 other points to follow)
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Any real hyper-calvinists out there?
Then come, and let's reason together.
What do you think of the 4th point?
Is that what you believe?
Are you rightly represented?
And Calvinists, please join in to enlighten us.

Sing F Lau
6. Hyper-Calvinists do not usually respect the ordo salutis or order of salvation and fail to put distinctions of them, namely, foreknowledge, predestination, regeneration (effectual call), justification, sanctification and glorification. They make a false assumption that since a person is foreknown and predestinated to salvation, that person must be already justified and glorified. There is no such thing as Saving Faith and evangelical repentance in time. To affirm the necessity of these graces to salvation is to deny God’s decree in etc.
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1. It is the "true Calvinists" represented by men like Rocky who are really messed up with the ordo salutis!
They fail to distinguish the DISTINCT an SEPARATE aspects of salvation, especially the distinction between the APPLICATION of salvation by the free and sovereign activities of the Triune God without any means, and the MANIFESTATION and practical experience of that salvation (already applied by God's free and sovereign to God's elect) through the means appointed by God.

Failing to distinguish the two, they end up joining the two aspects... such that the application of salvation is now intertwined with and conditioned upon the means of the gospel ministry and evangelical graces.... making eternal salvation conditioned upon the means, instead of by the free and sovereign grace of God.

2. Since an elect is foreknown with electing love and predestinated to eternal glory, the person is AS GOOD AS already justified and glorified in the MIND and PURPOSE of God. Since God willed it, it is immutable and will most certainly come to pass. But each elect is NOT personally justified UNTIL the salvation accomplished by Jesus Christ is actually APPLIED to him personally at effectual calling. This basic fact is so plainly stated in 1689.11.4

3. Saving faith and evangelical repentance is POSSIBLE ONLY AFTER eternal salvation HAS BEEN APPLIED to an elect of God by God's free and sovereign grace, without any means. They, saving faith and evangelical obedience, are effects of the eternal salvation already applied. But the 'true Calvinists make them the means whereby they obtain salvation from God!! Horror. Saving faith and evangelical repentance is the manifestation of, and the means to experience the salvation already applied by the free and sovereign grace of God.

'True Calvinists' mess up the ordo salutis BIG TIME... which is why their understanding of soteriology is riddled with some serious logical fallacies and contradictions. But many are oblivious and blind to them! And many willfully.

4. To affirm the necessity of these graces in their divinely ordained realm or context is to rightly divide the word of truth, and to affirm the biblical teaching on the salvation by God's free grace faithfully and honestly. Food is necessary... but necessary for what? Is it necessary as the means whereby the dead get life; or is it necessary as the means to nourish the lives that are, and to manifest the lives in them?
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To continue to Damnable Heresy 7, go here
https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2012/10/damnable-heresy-7-considered_7403.html


Johnny
I may have my definitions wrong, but I am like you, Sing, in that early on, I believed ONLY in the proper understanding and following of the "steps of salvation." As time and prayer has come and gone, I have realized that perhaps the above is correct. At least for me. Yet, prayer and study, has reveled that the "plan of salvation," leaves God completely out, and if there at all, only in combination with human action. Dismissing the spiritual aspects. Foreknowledge, predestination, regeneration, justification, sanctification, glorification, and let me add a couple more: reconciliation, atonement, grace, forgiveness. ALL 100% spritiual. Sure, we said before, we were saved by God who forgives us, but when: if WE pray, as if we do not believe that God forgives. Ironically, the slavation, of my old way of thinking, ONLY was attached to heaven, a spiritual existence. Not much said about being saved from the world, physical somewhat, the same type of physical existence as the "works" to be performed, in order to "merit" salvation. So, if that is Calvanism, that I went from, so be it. It is only half-true, if at all.

Sing F Lau
I really don't know what Hyper-Calvinists of the Hardshell type believe.
Rocky having been one formerly, knows and represents them in his 11-point statements, and he describes them as "damnable heretics." So I was really piqued, and wonder why he would described them like that... and decided to examine his 11-point statements. And this is his 6th point. Of course I want to stay far away from damnable heretics!

Sing F Lau
Here is my understanding of the order of salvation. Take a look.
If there is anything you consider erroneous, please alert me and tell me why.
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2011/05/order-of-salvation.html
Things New and Old: The Order of Salvation

Sing F Lau
Here is a demonstration of the messed up order of the wise Calvinists! Take a look.
If there is anything you consider erroneous, please alert me and tell me why.
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2010/04/messed-up-order-of-salvation-of.html
Things New and Old: A Messed Up Order of Salvation of the Calvinists

Ronny
perhaps listening to re-form bible scholar R.C. Sproul's radio program may shed light to your question on the doctrine of predestination Sing! I highly recommend his proper teaching on Calvinism. Just google "ligonier ministries" for the apps.

Charles
 it is strange that he knows so much about HC but yet can't name a single one. None of them can name any!!!

Sing F Lau
I begin to think that H-Cs are just fictional straw men put up by those who call themselves "true Calvinists" because they can't refute the things believed by those whom they condemned as damnable heretics!

"Denunciation is the last resort of a defeated opponent" said Arthur Pink when he was slandered as a H-C! (Preface to his book "The Sovereignty of God."

Sing F Lau 
Ronny, Thank.
May I suggest you read this note, and learn how messed up is the "true Calvinists" order of salvation, PLEASE.  https://www.facebook.com/#!/notes/sing-f-lau/some-plain-observations-from-romans-829-30/10151814906883484  Some Plain Observations from Romans 8:29-30
 
Ronny
So are you gonna try and listen to R.C. Sproul... he represents Calvinism the proper way, you seem to be looking for someone who could represent Calvinism in the proper context, here is the opportunity.
[I seriously doubt Mr. Sproul's is any different from those of Murray, Hendriksen, etc. ]

Sing F Lau
Please give me a specific link so that I can READ what he teaches on the Order of Salvation.
I prefer reading than hearing. Do you know what he teaches on the order of salvation?
So, have you read the short note I suggested? It may help to detox the mind a bit.

Ronny
Just get the apps and select from the menu... as a reminder, you will be now hearing from someone who represent Calvinism in the proper context!

Sing F Lau
Thank you Ronny. We will see whether he is much different from other Calvinists in his understanding of the order of salvation.
If he doesn't get that right, he will have contradictions and inconsistencies in representing the biblical doctrine of grace. If someone can provide a link, I would go and read it.

Ronny
I'll be looking forward to your next Calvinism post...

Charles 
R.C. Sproul... he represents Calvinism the proper way - LOL I would think the Bible sets forth the proper way!! This may be the funniest comment  I've read in a very long time!! Calvinism 'ex-cathedra'

Ronny
Charles, is taking down a fellow Christian the only way you operate? We already know about the bible being supreme, we are discussing Calvinism... Could you at least grant us that without the diatribe from you!

Charles
So the Bible is not relevant to this discussion? seems only John Calvin and Not Sproul would be the only proper authority for Calvinism. (if the bible is not relevant)

Ronny
Of course, it is! I already mentioned above that the scripture is supreme. But the topic is Calvinism... What part don't you understand? I don't want to argue my brother... If you have something constructive to bring at the table, I'm sure Sing would appreciate that.

Charles
Cannons of Dort refuting error #9 to the third and fourth head
Error: Who teach that grace and free choice are concurrent partial causes which cooperate to initiate conversion, and that grace does not proceed--in the order of causality--the effective influence of the will;that is to say, that God does not effectively help man's will to come to conversion before man's will itself motivates and determines itself.

For the early church already condemned this doctrine long ago in the Pelagians, on the basis of the words of the apostle: It does not depend on man's willing or running but on God's mercy (Rom. 9:16); also: Who makes you different from anyone else? and What do you have that you did not receive? (1 Cor. 4:7); likewise: It is God who works in you to will and act according to his good pleasure (Phil. 2:13).

Regeneration and faith are not simultaneous but faith follows regeneration chronologically -life precedes believing!

Sing F Lau
Whoa, Mr. Dort has so many heads!!!
I didn't know that! Thanks, Charles.


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