Things New and Old

Ancient truths revealed in the Scriptures are often forgotten, disbelieved or distorted, and therefore lost in the passage of time. Such ancient truths when rediscovered and relearned are 'new' additions to the treasury of ancient truths.

Christ showed many new things to the disciples, things prophesied by the prophets of old but hijacked and perverted by the elders and their traditions, but which Christ reclaimed and returned to His people.

Many things taught by the Apostles of Christ have been perverted or substituted over the centuries. Such fundamental doctrines like salvation by grace and justification have been hijacked and perverted and repudiated by sincere Christians. These doctrines need to be reclaimed and restored to God's people.

There are things both new and old here. "Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things" 2Ti 2:7.

Tuesday, October 2, 2012

Damnable Heresy 5: Considered



September 19
(5th in the series)
A brother who calls himself a 'true Calvinist' said:
I must admit I was once a Hyper-Calvinist of the Hardshell type, but through the grace of our Lord was brought back again to believe once more the Bible by correct and scientific exegesis, especially in rightly dividing the Word of truth. While actually answering you by and bye, I would like to show Hardshell Hyper-Calvinism is characterized by the following common presuppositions:

5. Since regeneration is independent of the written Word and of the preaching of the Gospel, it must be an inner and interior operation of the Holy Spirit and always APART from the ordinary ministry of the Word. While true Calvinists believe that regeneration is not dependent on the ordinary ministry of the Word but may take place, on and with it, and in some cases before and without it, simultaneously in the moment of faith, Hyper-Calvinists make an unnecessary deduction that to believe that regeneration can take place simultaneous in the moment of faith, it makes the Word preached to be the cause of regeneration,

(5 of 11, 6 other points to follow)
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Any real hyper-calvinists out there?
Then come, and let's reason together.
What do you think of the 4th point?
Is that what you believe?
Are you rightly represented?

And Calvinists, please join in to enlighten us.

Sing F Lau 
Rocky said, "... true Calvinists believe that regeneration is not dependent on the ordinary ministry of the Word but may take place, on and with it, and in some cases before and without it, simultaneously in the moment of faith."
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The so-called "true Calvinists" spread a very wide net to include every possible scenarios! That's so smart of the true Calvinists!!!

Would you rather believe the wise 'true Calvinists' or would you rather listen to Christ Jesus Himself?

Here is the Lord's own words:
"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." John 3:8.

Sorry, the Lord Jesus' words REPUDIATE the wisdom of the "true Calvinists"!

"So is every one born of the Spirit" - yes, as many as are born of the Spirit of God... they are born of the Spirit of Christ the ONE SAME way, freely and sovereignly, immediately and directly, by the divine power alone.

So, either EVERYONE is born of the Spirit WITH the instrumental means of the gospel ministry, or EVERYONE is born of the Spirit WITHOUT the instrumental means of the gospel ministry. The choice is quite simple!

The "true Calvinists" in their own wisdom refuse to pick one or the other, but must have both, and contradict and despise the plain words of the Lord Jesus Christ!!! And having taken both, they invent the fable of the ordinary way of regeneration by the Spirit with the gospel ministry and the exceptional way of regeneration by the Spirit without the gospel ministry!!!

So 'Let Christ be true, but every "true Calvinist" a liar!

Sing F Lau
"Hyper-Calvinists make an unnecessary deduction that to believe that regeneration can take place simultaneous in the moment of faith, it makes the Word preached to be the cause of regeneration..."
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I really wish Brother Rocky could actually give evidence of one single Hyper-Calvinist who ACTUALLY believe that the ministry of the word is THE CAUSE of regeneration! Otherwise, OTHERWISE  I can only conclude that Rocky has either IGNORANTLY or DECEITFULLY misrepresented the position of the H-C. It is no light matter to misrepresent someone else belief!

In any case, I believe that the direct and immediate activity of the Holy Spirit upon an elect dead in trespasses and sins is the ONLY and SOLE cause of his regeneration. The Lord Jesus said so, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

The activities of the wind are completely independent of any human activities!!! It is a truth too obvious to be denied by every sane man! Go and ask the simple farmers. But 'true Calvinists' cannot accept it.

Rocky
Lau, your calling me ignorant and deceitful is very emotional. Why don't you answer my question in my page when you were debating the same topic with me? You actually started this topic on your page so that you keep deleting messages when you don't like them or when the replies contradict your belief. Stop calling me ignorant, deceitful, for you are neither very educated nor intelligent. Your arrogance is unacceptable.

Sing F Lau 
Rocky, the issue is very simple. I'm not an emotional man... too strict and objective for that.

Give evidence of one single man whom you consider Hyper-Calvinist who ACTUALLY believe that the ministry of the word is THE CAUSE of regeneration!

OTHERWISE... OTHERWISE...
Otherwise, yes I did say OTHERWISE...read it again... OTHERWISE, you are either IGNORANT of what the H-Cs believe, thus can't represent them correctly, or DECEITFULLY misrepresent them to establish your own view. It is a serious matter to misrepresent others. So just who is getting emotional??? Just show that my 'otherwise' is uncalled for! This is the discussion! No need to get emotional!

Please post your question here. Questions welcome. I am not aware of the question on your page. What's the question?

Give evidence of one instance where I deleted messages that I don't like or those that contradict my belief. Otherwise, you are lying! I do warn people to keep to the subject.... too many don't have this basic discipline in a discussion.

Charles
Canon of Dort's rejects the error: "Who teach that grace and free choice are concurrent partial causes which cooperate to initiate conversion, and that grace does not precede--in the order of causality--the effective influence of the will;that is to say, that God does not effectively help man's will to come to conversion before man's will itself motivates and determines itself. rejection #9 to the third and fourth head."

["... concurrent partial causes... - the popular Calvinist's synergism repudiated and denounced by the Canon of Dort. - sing]

Sing F Lau
Thanks, Charles for the quote.
I'm not familiar with the Canon of Dort.
I'm more familiar with WCF and the LBCF 1689.

Sing F Lau 
Rocky @ "Hyper-Calvinists make an unnecessary deduction that to believe that regeneration can take place simultaneous in the moment of faith, it makes the Word preached to be the cause of regeneration..."
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The "unnecessary deduction" is most probably the erroneous deduction generously made by the 'true Calvinists' themselves on behalf of the H-C, so that the 'true Calvinists' can have a straw lad to burn.

I will substantiate this.

Rocky himself affirms that the H-Cs reject the ministry of the word as playing any instrumental role in the regeneration of God's elect by the Holy Spirit. "... regeneration is always APART from the ordinary ministry of the Word."

Since the H-Cs affirm that regeneration is always APART from the ordinary ministry of the word... that the ministry of the word is NOT EVEN an instrumental MEANS in regeneration, then how is it possible for the H-Cs would elevate the ministry of the word as the CAUSE of regeneration???

The H-C, as presented by Rocky is not even prepared to concede ONE INCH to the ministry of the word as INSTRUMENTAL MEANS in regeneration, but the 'true Calvinists' freely draw "unnecessary deduction" that the H-C are willing and generous to concede ONE WHOLE MILE to the ministry of the word as THE CAUSE in regeneration!!!

O the cunning and deviousness of the 'true Calvinists' - oh who are they?

Robert
I need to simplify because I am not as intelligent as you folks so as to ask why is the Spirit given to man? 1Corinthians 2:12 says it is so we can know the things that are (already) freely given to us.

To me, it is like filling the room of a blind man, full of great things and awesome things as gifts to him and then giving him eyes to see what is in the room. He does not gain more than is given , but can lose the experience of enjoying those things if he does not use them.

Rocky
Sing, you did not understand me. I said:
“Since regeneration is independent of the written Word and of the preaching of the Gospel, it must be an inner and interior operation of the Holy Spirit and always APART from the ordinary ministry of the Word. While true Calvinists believe that regeneration is not dependent on the ordinary ministry of the Word but may take place, on and with it, and in some cases before and without it, simultaneously in the moment of faith, Hyper-Calvinists make an unnecessary deduction that to believe that regeneration can take place simultaneous in the moment of faith, it makes the Word preached to be the cause of regeneration. “

I don’t understand that you, who claim to be very smart, and calling me ignorant, could not understand simple statement as that. Do I need to rephrase it to you? How could a man who claim to be very smart, as you are, misinterpret that simple English?

Since you think very highly of yourself, and by using emotionally motivated language such as “ignorant”, “deceitful”, etc. against Christians like me, I challenged you to name one witness from the one hundred and two Westminster divines who advocated your strange doctrine that the “Word and the Spirit” of the 10th Chapter of the WcoF do refer to Christ and the Spirit as you asserted. But you did not answer me, rather you gave me your own self as witness instead of giving me an answer. My original question, to refresh your memory, is as follows:

“Since you are boasting of faithfully adhering to the original intent of the framers of the Westminster Confession of Faith, please bring in one credible witness from the one hundred and two Westminster divines who attended the Assembly to prove your notion that the “Word and His Spirit” do refer to Christ, the Logos, and the Holy Ghost – two persons of the Godhead, thus denying that it refers to the preaching of the Word (outward call) and God’s Spirit (inward call). For unless you can bring at least one among the one hundred and two divines from that venerable Assembly, it is pointless and fruitless to continue discussing with you here.

“I think this simple question will settle the differences between us at once. It is a strange theology, indeed, to misinterpret the original intent of the Assembly. The Assembly, in their Shorter Catechism, in answering to question # 31, What is effectual calling? Says, “Effectual call is the work of God’s Spirit, whereby convincing us of our sin and misery, enlightening our minds in the knowledge of Christ, and renewing our wills, he doth persuade and enable us to embrace Jesus Christ, freely offered to us in the gospel.” I Sara’s Hillbilly Husband, Brent Gensler and many of the thorough Reformed and Presbyterians whom you call half-brothers are anxiously waiting your answer to the above simple question.”

I think this is my last reply. To continue discussing with you is unhealthy and unprofitable. I challenge you, again, to discuss with me in Modern Reformation Society because you might get wider audience there, and show to many people you are smarter than most Reformed people.

Sing F Lau 
Rocky, you must have missed my reply to your request mentioned above!
It is found here, the last comment : https://www.facebook.com/rocky.a.simbajon/posts/10151125385291723
You requested for one credible witness... I bring ALL the Framers of the WCF as logical and rational witnesses, according to their sound and logical statements. Your belief would necessarily imply that they were confused and illogical men.

Here was the reply, verbatim.
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Rocky, you requested:
"Since you are boasting of faithfully adhering to the original intent of the framers of the Westminster Confession of Faith, please bring in one credible witness from the one hundred and two Westminster divines who attended the Assembly to prove your notion that the “Word and His Spirit” do refer to Christ, the Logos, and the Holy Ghost – two persons of the Godhead, thus denying that it refers to the preaching of the Word (outward call) and God’s Spirit (inward call)."

September 10 at 1:09am
Brother Rocky, why do you say I am boasting.
My conclusion that - the “Word and His Spirit” do refer to Christ, the Logos, and the Holy Ghost – two persons of the Godhead, thus denying that it refers to the preaching of the word (outward call) and God’s Spirit (inward call) - is necessary, otherwise you MUST necessarily conclude that ALL THE WCF Framers are illogical and self-contradicting!

Let me demonstrate to you by their VERY own words in the WCF.

WCF.X.i necessarily EMBRACES ALL THE ELECT.... do you agree? Read again. Is anyone excepted?

So, if you want to make 'His Word' to refer to the ministry of the word (outward call), then you are necessarily making the Framers to state that ALL the elect without exception will have the outward call, none excepted. Do you agree with this necessary and inevitable conclusion???

If that's what you want to make the Framers to mean in WCF.X.i, then you are making the Framers appear really stupid and illogical and inconsistent to mention in X.iii that there are elect who don't have the outward call. You are saying that the Framers contradict X.i with X.iii. Do you see the point?

No, the Framers were clear and logical. It is their STEP-CHILDREN that are confused and illogical and inconsistent.
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You HAVEN'T respond to that last comment.

Pick your choice... ALL the Framers were sound and logical, and your idea is false; or your idea is right, and all the Framers were unsound and illogical. If you have a third choice, I would be very interested to know.

You and I are both interested in the truth of the gospel of our salvation.
That's the business at hand.

Sing F Lau 
Rocky, there is no need to feel so offended... Read again what I said,

"I really wish Brother Rocky could actually give evidence of one single Hyper-Calvinist who ACTUALLY believe that the ministry of the word is THE CAUSE of regeneration! Otherwise, I can only conclude that Rocky has either IGNORANTLY or DECEITFULLY misrepresented the position of the H-C. It is no light matter to misrepresent someone else belief!"

You may be a very informed 'true Calvinist' - but you may be IGNORANT of the position of those you label "Hardshell Hyper-Calvinist". Supposing you are informed about their position, the only conclusion left is that you have DECEITFULLY misrepresented their position. The reason is - no 'Harshell Hyper-Calvinist' will own what you said is their belief!!!
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