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| Let's have some tea, and consider another 'damnable heresy'! |
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September 12
(2nd in the series of 11)
A brother who called himself a "true Calvinist" said:
I must admit I was once a Hyper-Calvinist of the Hardshell type, but through the grace of our Lord was brought back again to believe once more the Bible by correct and scientific exegesis, especially in rightly dividing the Word of truth. While actually answering you by and bye, I would like to show Hardshell Hyper-Calvinism is characterized by the following common presuppositions:
2. Hyper-Calvinists understand passages such as Rom. 8: 29 as purely decretive rather than providential.
(2nd of 11, 9 other points to follow)
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Any real hyper-calvinists out there?
Then come, and let's reason together.
What do you think of the 2nd point?
Is that what you believe?
Are you rightly represented?
And Calvinists, please join in to enlighten us.
If you can keep to the point, please comment.
No straying allowed!
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Sing F Lau
Here is the passage referred to:
Romans 8:29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Sing F Lau
I have a question: are there different types of Hyper-Calvinists - the Hardshell type, and the non-Hardshell types?
The first time I heard about H-C was in the late 80s when PRC was denounced by Calvinists as H-C.
And what's a Hardshell type? Honest questions.
Rocky
Actually, I do not like to call those people Hyper-Calvinists, I like to call them Damnable Heretics.
Sing F Lau
Thanks. Could you name some of them, or point me to some of their writings. I really want to read what they actually taught... and avoid those damnable heretics and their damnable heresies!
Rocky
Here we go again, brother. The Primitive Baptists are one example. They believe that a man can actually be saved without saving faith in Christ by the preaching of the Gospel.
Philip
In the verses given where do you see man's involement? For whom He (God). Where is man here? Why do so many people believe God can control anything but can't save a dead sinner without our help?
Sing F Lau
Thanks. Are Primitive Baptists the Hardshell type or non-Hardshell type? Pardon my ignorance!
Are they among the damnable heretics you have in mind?
Helloooooooooo... any Primitive Baptists out there!
Did you read what my friend Rocky has written.
Please respond to what he says, and KINDLY please.
Keep strictly to the point, or your comments SHALL BE DELETED without apology... because none is owed! That's clear.
Rocky
I don't mean to pick up a fight here, Lau. But Hardshellism is an American made religion. They invented the appelation for themselves.
When Christianity was flourishing in Europe, there was no Hardshell yet: only faithful Christians who adhered to the pure teaching of the Scripture. Philip: Man's involvement in the verse aforementioned was he was the second party of the story. God did all for him in His decree. But God's decree is executed by God’s Providence. Here, God’s decree of electing man is implemented in time.
[sing: please note Rocky: no one denies that man is the second party of the story; man is the party acted upon by the free and sovereign activities of God; man is the completely passive party, a party that contributes nothing, a party dead in trespasses and sins, a party in enmity against God.]
Sing F Lau
Thanks Rocky. No fighting allowed on my turf. I'm interested in studying to rightly divide the word of truth... to avoid damnable heretics and their heresies. So, I'm interested to understand what you are saying. Labels are not helpful. We will deal with the issues at hand.
Rocky
No problem, Lau.
Philip
Rocky - so you are saying that God uses man to get the gospel to everyone and if they are elect then they accept it. Is that what you are saying? Where is the scripture to back that?
Sing F Lau
Ok, let me post here some observations on the Roman passage you have raised. Take a look, and tell me where you disagree, and why?
I don't know what the PBs believe. Let them speak for themselves, and I will speak for myself. And it will be good to hear you speaking for yourself.
https://www.facebook.com/notes/sing-f-lau/some-plain-observations-from-romans-829-30/10151814906883484 Some Plain Observations from Romans 8:29-30
The gospel of free grace declares Eternal Salvation, WITHOUT any human means! (You must not confuse this as saying that temporal salvation by the obedience of God's children is without means. The gospel ministry is vital for the temporal salvation of God's children...
Rocky
Philip: God in His Providence ordered all things to come to pass from second causes (God being the First Cause) to the rest in a perpetual motion until all actions reactions and conditions agreeing to the infallible purposes in the mind of God shall have been sufficiently met. All things (including the preaching of the Gospel – its willing acceptance of the elect and the rejection of the reprobates) work together for good (Rm. 8: 28) “according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will” (Ep. 1:11).
Philip
Where do you find one scripture that says salvation is by hearing the gospel?
The gospel brings salvation to light.
There is salvation in hearing the gospel but it is in this world.
I came from a Calvinist background, I was told I had to believe with all my heart and expected my life to be changed, every time trouble came I doubted whether or not I had done what was needed right, but when I heard I didn't have to do anything it stirred up my heart and made me want to serve my Lord and Saviour. That is timely salvation, that was a weight delivered from me, that was my eternal salvation coming to light. Was I a child of God before that? I believe so! But now I can rest in knowing that Jesus took care of it all, I don't have anything to worry about, but I want all children of God to have what I have.
Sing F Lau
Rocky stated:
2. Hyper-Calvinists understand passages such as Rom. 8: 29 as purely decretive rather than providential.
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Romans 8:29-30 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
It is safe to state that by 'providential', Rocky meant 'God acting in time.'
My comment on the passage above:
It is PLAIN and OBVIOUS that foreknowledge and predestination happened in eternity, i.e. before time; calling and justification happen in time, and glorification will happen at the end of time.
But all those DIVINE activities in time are stated in the past tense because in the mind and purpose of God, these saving activities are so assured and certain of execution and accomplishment and application that they are stated as good as have happened - in the simple PAST TENSE.
However please note that in the calling of the elect OUT of their native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation, the elect is completely passive in relationship to that call. Actually, an elect in his native state of sin and death is hostile and in enmity against God! It has to be by God's free grace.
Also note that in God's act of justifying the elect under the condemnation of death by His free and sovereign grace, he was still incapable of believing, being still under the condemnation of death.
If by 'providential', Rocky means the actual application in time of what was decreed, then this passage has BOTH the decretive element and the providential element. And ALL of them by God's free and sovereign grace... WITHOUT any human activities.
Let the H-Cs worth the label respond to the statement of Rocky. Thanks.
Sing F Lau
Rocky' wrote: "... The Primitive Baptists... They believe that a man can actually be saved without saving faith in Christ by the preaching of the Gospel."
Hmmm. Did you ask them what they mean by saying that "a man can actually be saved without saving faith in Christ by the preaching of the Gospel"? Do you understand what they mean?
Whatever they believe, let me try to understand what you are saying.
You are saying that saving faith in Christ by the preaching of the gospel is NECESSARY for a man to be saved.
Bear with me a while, and let's reason together a bit.
I believe a man who can exercise saving faith is a man who IS already SAVED by God - i.e. effectually called out of his native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation, and have the Holy Spirit indwelling him, and who works all the saving graces, including faith, in him. Faith is a fruit and effect of salvation freely and sovereign bestowed by God. Do you agree?
Since saving faith is indeed a fruit and effect of the salvation already bestowed freely and sovereign by God's free grace, in what sense is the saving faith in Christ necessary for that man to be saved? Can you please tell us. What is the relationship of salvation bestowed freely by grace and that which is obtained through saving faith?
Is the salvation bestowed by God's free and sovereign grace that enables a man to exercise saving faith, and the salvation through saving faith in Jesus Christ the ONE and THE SAME salvation?
Surely a fine Calvinist like you DOES NOT hold on the obvious logical fallacy of "saving faith, the effect of salvation by God's free and sovereign grace, is at the SAME time the means or instrument whereby one attains or appropriate that SAME salvation!
An effect of salvation CANNOT POSSIBLY be the means or instrument to obtain that SAME salvation.
I sure hope Calvinists don't believe such nonsense! But it seems they most certainly do!
Breath is an effect of the life already given; in what sense then is breath necessary to have that life?
How does saving faith in Christ through the gospel ministry save? Is it the same way as God saves in Christ?
Please give us some light, Rocky. Thanks.
Robert
A dead man can not eat!
Sing F Lau
Rocky wrote
"... The Primitive Baptists... They believe that a man can actually be saved without saving faith in Christ by the preaching of the Gospel."
Let me try to understand what you are saying.
You are saying that saving faith in Christ by the preaching of the gospel is NECESSARY for a man to be saved.
Rocky, if saving faith in Christ by the preaching of the gospel is NECESSARY for a man to be saved, THEN it necessarily implies that the is NO SALVATION for those elect who are incapable of exercising saving faith in Christ or have no opportunity to hear the gospel of their salvation and exercise saving faith in Christ.
Wouldn't your statement damn SUCH elect of God? Surely you do believe that there are God's children who are incapable of being outward called by the ministry of the word....(whether because of inability or because of no opportunity) or do you actually believe that EVERY elect of God will hear the gospel and manifest saving faith in Christ?
Perhaps a PB may like to explain to us what salvation is under consideration that is conditioned on saving faith.
Sing F Lau
Robert, often a living man will not eat!!! May be too sick, or too stubborn!
Sing F Lau
Conclusion: after asking around a bit, this is what I conclude.
The Calvinist's statement about the 'damnable heresy' of the PBs - i.e. "They believe that a man can actually be saved without saving faith in Christ by the preaching of the Gospel" is CHIEFLY and PRIMARILY due to the Calvinist's own ignorance and/or rejection of the PB's beliefs that eternal salvation by God's free grace alone without any means (when saving faith is still an impossibility) is distinct and prior to the temporal salvation that is conditioned upon the obedience of God's children to the means appointed by their Father.
That's just my conclusion. I don't know whether the PBs or Rocky would agree???
Robert
Sing, a living man given a reason to live my eat. A man quickened from spiritual death to spiritual life is left with a deep sense of his own sinfulness and his separation from God if only in his mind. The spirit given in the new birth changes the desires of a man because there is a new creature in him. I believe that that man can be taught by God himself of the hope of a redeemer directly through revelations in creation or bring the gospel to that man via human means. These are a choices God makes. Only a quickened man can seek after God. I do not currently believe that God makes a man alive in Christ and just leaves him alone to fend for himself.
Robert
What I don't understand is why a Calvinist insists on adding another requirement to a finished work, What separates man from God in a judicial way is sin. Christ paid for the sin of Gods elect and when the spirit is given to them individually it is given because they are accepted in the beloved and so they may know the things that are freely given to them. The preaching of the Gospel is the ministry of reconciliation reconciling the mind of man to the mind of Christ ie: we are one with Him. A man will have no rest until he believes that truth but that does not change his eternal destiny.
Robert
Often times it is many years between being made alive in Christ ie quickened and coming to the full truth as we know it about the finished work of Jesus Christ ie: He has perfected forever them that are sanctified. These are a series of conversions to truth not gaining anything eternally. I was once a Calvinist ,Armenian and even a Jehovah witness learned about Episcopal and pentecostal teachings., that all ended about 20 years ago when I learned the truth as we know it.
Robert
I do not think that God works the same way with every man all the time some men. God will make sure hear and believe the preached word some not I so far reject extreme absolutism and extreme conditional ism one day I hope I will learn the right division Acts 13:48 not one failed to believe. there is a redemption of body mind ,and soul gospel preaching is for the mind and food for the soul doesn't change our decaying body. Christ has redeemed us out of every kindred tribe and tongue I think a lot of Calvinists will be surprised who is accepted on that day.
Sing F Lau
There is a teaching directly by God, and there is a teaching through the ministry of the gospel.
Sing F Lau
In eternal salvation, God works THE SAME WAY WITH EVERY ELECT ALL THE TIME - just see Rom 8:28-29.
In temporal salvation, there is a very wide range.
Sing F Lau
Eternal salvation is as good as perfected - i.e. assured and certain of glorification - the moment it is applied freely and sovereignly to sinners dead in trespasses and sins.
Temporal salvation through the gospel ministry is a life-long process, have to be work out with fear and trembling.
Robert
Eternal salvation is only through Jesus Christ on the cross alone. we agree. Temporally, Paul was a chosen vessel and God would make sure Paul went to the gentiles also would make sure Paul arrived in Rome. This is where I would differ with my brethren a bit. Because in fighting robotic Calvinism they throw out God in the gospel ministry. Jesus went to His disciples and said come and they did even the devil, I find it interesting none said no I don't think so. I read a PB elder a while back who was so extreme on conditional ism that God did not intend to allow His son to be crucified on the very day and place He was, I believe that is in error and leaves no hope for Gods children in their fathers care in providence because he can not even protect His own son from evil men.
Sing F Lau
Robert, what is 'robotic Calvinism'?
How do your PB brethren throw out God in the gospel ministry?
Sing F Lau
Rocky, so I hope the view I have expressed here with respect to your 2nd statement does not come into your category of 'damnable heresy'!!! If it does, I pray that you would guide me out of it. Forget what the Hardshell type of Hyper-C believe.
Thanks.
Robert
Bro. Sing robotic Calvinism to me is the idea that every action done in time was foreordained by God every thought, movement, desire etc. much like extreme absolutism so that every thing that happens in time ultimately is the will of God, both good and evil. Not all of my PB brethren (throw out) or dismiss God working out in time His purposes in who hears and believes, but there are those that do believe that all those who come to faith in Jesus Christ are the result of chance and circumstance and that their obedience to the gospel is only in the will of the creature.
I think there are those that God intends to hear and believe the truth and he will ensure they both hear and believe the truth, I don't think that is always the case with all the elect , I believe that God can use creation itself is an instructor to those who are quickened to teach about the hope of a redeemer and the power of God, but there is a much more complete understanding through the preaching of THE gospel.
I guess to make the substance relevant to you, do you believe that out of your experience, coming to your current understanding was just chance and circumstance or did God intend you to have this change in the understanding of the purpose and utility of the gospel? why do your brethren in the Reformed Baptist resist the truth, and you believe? is it your mere intellect and experience, or did God prepare to have this truth brought to you and prepare you to believe it, because He has a purpose for you in particular?
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Continue to Damnable Heresy 3 here:
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2012/10/damnable-heresy-3-considered.html
