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| One for the 'hypo' one for the 'true', and one for the 'hyper' and one for me!!! |
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September 13
(3rd in the series)
A brother who calls himself a "true Calvinist" said:
I must admit I was once a Hyper-Calvinist of the Hardshell type, but through the grace of our Lord was brought back again to believe once more the Bible by correct and scientific exegesis, especially in rightly dividing the Word of truth. While actually answering you by and bye, I would like to show Hardshell Hyper-Calvinism is characterized by the following common presuppositions:
3. Since Divine Providence is confused with God’s decree, evangelical graces necessary to salvation such as preaching of the Gospel, faith and repentance are mooted, and, therefore, unnecessary.
(3rd of 11, 8 other points to follow)
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Any real hyper-calvinists out there?
Then come, and let's reason together.
What do you think of the 3rd point?
Is that what you believe?
Are you rightly represented?
And Calvinists, please join in to enlighten us.
If you can keep to the point, please comment.
No straying allowed!
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Dellis
I learned a long time ago, that what God decrees and commands are carried out by God's children. This is what the spiritual gifts, which God gives every believer are for. To edify the body of Christ. We are to preach, teach, evangelize, even helps are a gift.
I have heard that a Hyper Calvinist doesn't seek the spiritual gifts that help strengthen a body of believers, excusing themselves from the ministering to others, because they believe that God will take of His own business.
To me, a decree and providence have nothing to do with one another.
Divine providence might be explained by the way Joseph's brothers sold him into Egypt, only to have Joseph prepare a place for the brothers who hated him when they had a famine in their land. God didn't decree it, but His providence worked things according to the counsel of His own will.
Dellis
Sing F Lau, what denominational do you identify with? I know this might be off point, but since you teach many things I'm not familiar with, I'm interested in knowing the root church you are in.
Sing F Lau
Thanks. Let me leave a quick thought for you to think about. I'm leaving for class.
Redemption Purposed (God's decree) and Redemption Accomplished (by Christ ALONE at the cross) and Redemption Applied (by the Spirit's activities ALONE) - all by the immediate and direct activities of the Triune God ALONE must be distinguished from the Redemption Experienced through the ministry of the gospel and obedience to the gospel of their salvation.
Calvinists fail to make the distinction between the eternal salvation applied, freely and sovereignly by God, to the elect in their native state of sin and death and condemnation, effectually calling them to that state of grace and salvation, and the temporal salvation ministered to God's children through the gospel ministry.
Calvinists seem to LUMP together the Application of Redemption by the free and sovereign grace of God ALONE and the Experience of Redemption through the means appointed.... leading to all the inconsistencies and contradictions in their views.
A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology.
Sing F Lau
Brother Dellis, I don't belong to any denomination. I'm an independent and would identify myself with the old school baptists who framed the 1689 CoF.
I was converted in an RB church while a student at a college. Along the way, as I understand more things, I discovered that the calvinistic position is FULL of inconsistencies.... more like a better version of Arminianism. I studied the 1689 CoF and discovered great discrepancies of what it SUMMARIZES the teaching of Scriptures and the 'calvinism' advanced by the RBs.
When I endeavoured to show them that the RBs (as new school calvinists) have departed from the faith of the old school baptists, they ceased fellowship and branded me a heretic. Read the documented story here: http://pruning-deformed-branches.blogspot.com/ Pruning 7 Deformed Branches
Sing F Lau
Brother Dellis, you said,
"... that what God decrees and commands are carried out by God's children...."
This statement expresses only a fraction of the truth that needed to be stated... I suggest it ought to read like this to express the who adequately.
"What God had decreed concerning His elect, He also executed and ACCOMPLISHED FOR His elect by His Son Jesus Christ; and what He accomplished for His elect is also APPLIED TO each of His elect personally by His Spirit - all these freely and sovereignly by grace alone, which turn rebels and children of wrath into children of God.
These children of God are commanded to do the will of their Father. God must act sovereignly first to produce His children before there can be children to carry out His will. God DOES NOT need His children to help Him to produce His children - the Calvinists abhor this basic truth of salvation by grace alone. There are God's children only after the Triune God has acted freely and sovereign to apply the eternal redemption to each of the elect personally.
Your statement is also potentially misleading because the decrees of God are NOT carried out by God's children. They are sovereignly and freely executed by God Himself, upon His elect. A perfect example is seen in this passage:
Rom 8 29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Sing F Lau
Rocky, @ "Since Divine Providence is confused with God’s decree, evangelical graces necessary to salvation such as the preaching of the Gospel, faith and repentance are mooted, and, therefore, unnecessary."
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This statement rightly assumes that Divine Providence is the execution of God's decree in time.
However it fails to recognize that in the execution of God's decree, there are elements that are wholly monergistic - i.e by the free and sovereign grace of God alone on those dead in trespasses and sins, and there are elements that are synergistic - i.e. man's working in response to the grace of God working in His children. Failure to rightly divide the two is the cause of a whole lot of logical fallacies and contradictions.
The effectual call of each elect out of his native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation is wholly monergistic, without any means.
To call an elect out of his native state of sin and death and condemnation requires:
(i) justification by God's free grace based solely on Christ's righteousness alone (this takes care of the condemnation),
(ii) regeneration to eternal life by the free and sovereign activity of the Spirit of God (this takes care of the spiritual deadness), and
(iii) adoption into the family of God by God's free and sovereign grace (this takes cares of the alienation), and the gift of the Spirit of adoption to dwell in the child.
All the above are MONERGISTIC - Divine Providence in the APPLICATION of redemption to each elect.
When God, by His Divine Providence has monergistically work to produce His children, means for the spiritual good of the children find their RELEVANCE.
The gospel ministry becomes necessary for the well being of God's children, to call them unto repentance and faith in the gospel of their salvation by the free grace of God.
However, the Calvinists, in their confusion, fail to keep the monergistic elements of Divine Providence from the Synergistic element of Divine Providence (where divinely ordained means are necessary for the well being of God's children.
Perhaps the so-called hyper-calvinists rightly divine the monergistic aspects of Divine Providence which DO NOT involve means from the synergistic elements of Divine Providence which require the divinely ordained means and evangelical graces.
Salvation bestowed by the monergistic activities of God is different from the salvation obtained through the ministry of the word and evangelical graces.
I hope this makes sense.
Sing F Lau
Rocky, so I hope the view I have expressed here with respect to your 3rd statement does not come into your category of 'damnable heresy'!!! If it does, I pray that you would guide me out of it. Forget what the Hardshell type of Hyper-C believes.
Thanks.
Rocky
Lau, sorry for not replying your every statement. I guess we could better discuss it with others if you post your challenges in Modern Reformation Society since I can guarantee that statements of both contenders, as long as they abide in their argumentation and debate with Christian spirit and behave as gentlemen, will not be erased by the admins even if they do not hold a deliberated position. That site is a forum good for such discussion. Can you accept that challenge?
Sing F Lau
Brother Rocky, I'm debating no one. I just wanted to consider your statements about hyper-calvinism, and interact them and see where Calvinism represented by you differ from the Hyper-Calvinism of your perception. Are there self-avowed hyper-calvinists on MRS? It is better to hear from the horse's mouth... I don't know if you have given a truthful representation of the hyper-calvinist.
Have you seen an HC's statement of faith? I would be interested to view and study.
PennyK
I'm not a very hyper person :)
And I dunno what you're talking about. LOL!
Sing F Lau
If you don't know what someone's talking about, then ask!!!
Brian
It is not the hyper but the hypo Calvinist that confuses the doctrine of soteriology with providence and calls it common grace. Providence is common, grace is particular.
PennyK
@Sing, I think I know what a Calvinist is... but I have no idea what hyper- or hypo- calvinism is??
Brian
With regard to the doctrines of grace, hypo means under what Calvin taught and hyper means over what Calvin taught.
PennyK
hmmm maybe I oughta stick with what Jesus taught. ;-) (I dunno this Calvin guy, except he likes TULIPs lol)
Brian
Jesus believed what Calvin taught. Jesus through the Holy Spirit in the scripture, taught Calvin.
PennyK
You mean Calvin believed what Jesus taught??
I agree with you though... that is how we learn about Jesus... straight from His Spirit...
"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."
Sing F Lau
Labels may be useful for general usage, but they are hardly useful in learning the truth of the gospel of Christ. Brian, I can say a firm amen to your statement, "Providence is common, grace is particular."
Sing F Lau
"With regard to the doctrines of grace, hypo means under what Calvin taught and hyper means over what Calvin taught."
Woooow. A Genevan has become the measuring rod!!!
If Calvin is wrong, am I to be placed on his left or on his right, or on his head???
Brian
But is he wrong? No doubt about the terms hyper calvinism and hypo calvinism do refer to Calvin. That, of course, does not make him right or wrong. It is, however, relative to the titles.
Sing F Lau
Here, Calvin most certainly messed up John 3:16 big time!!! How many Calvinists follow him blindly here... perhaps MANY! http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2011/12/john-calvins-notions-on-john-316.html
Brian
Calvin admitted himself that many things he had written were later developed and were wrong. He advised, if you want to know what he believed go to the institutes.
Brian
I recommend this online read, http://www.the-highway.com/calvin's_calvinism_index.html
Sing F Lau
Thanks for the link... I believe I'm fairly acquainted with Calvinism...
A library with many of its great proponents! And probably all the works by Calvin himself!
Here is a modern Calvinist's view on John 3:16! William Hendriksen.
Take a look! I have met so many Calvinists who believe the same!
They call those who don't agree with Hendriksen as hyper-calvinists!
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2011/12/calvinists-view-of-john-316.html
"Denunciation is the last resort of the defeated opponents," said Pink in dealing with those who labelled him a hyper in his days.
Brian
William Hendriksen was a member of the christian reformed Church. This denomination is of the hypo calvinist persuasion and believes in common grace and the free offer. This position is inconsistent with the teaching of the Reformed Faith and with Calvin. It is to Herman Hoeksema or David Engelsma one needs to go to to see Calvin rightly stated in modern times.
Sing F Lau
I'm acquainted with the history of the CRC and PRC and the battles fought.
So many own Hendriksen as a classic example of Calvinism, and that DE and HH as hyper-calvinist! Now you claim DE and HH as Calvinists, and the others as hypo!
Do you now see what I mean that labels are USELESS... because they are so relative! The Arminians call your hypo as hyper!!! Forget about the labels, and deal with each issue one by one... in light of Scriptures, and not what that Genevan taught!
Brian
We do but are forced somewhat into the label issues by false representation. I prefer to deal with scripture as do our churches.
Sing F Lau
So, stop using labels.. or inventing more labels like hypo and hippo and hyper!!!
When men love the association with names, they will fight to have that label for themselves... and invent labels for others.... don't you see the pattern?
"Denunciation is the last resort of the defeated opponents."
Whatever their label, if their teaching is not consistent with Scriptures, TOO BAD!
Brian
Well labels have their place Baptist, Reformed, Presbyterian. We all use them but like everything else, things that can be used can be abused.
Michael
Bible christian is a good label rite? why emphasize on so many names, rite? so confusing lo, or else, we may label baptist is the true way, reformed is the true way and all sort of judgements can pop out...opinion from a small and timid guy here.
Brian
The problem is everyone claims to be bible Christians. But we know the vast majority are not.
Michael
Then we should stick to being bible christians...labels ain't benefiting anyone...however, the doctrines should be made clear-cut and need to be tested out from the scriptures...too much argument happens just from labelling....my two cent opinion and only seeking unity with christians in love and truth
Sing F Lau
Michael, both As and Cs claim themselves Bible Christians! There are wide varieties of 'Reformed' people.... the label is loved by many because it is elitist!
What matter is, "Spell out your belief and state them plainly and precisely for all to see."
Michael
As mentioned....they need to state the doctrine lo...both As and Cs should not be called themselves As and Cs lo...
Michael
Oops...dun want to deviate too far from the title here...btw, for the 3rd point, salvation is grace from God and preaching, faith and repentance is not grace itself...but effects from grace....going to the topic ...feel free to comment.
