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| Is there an order here? |
Danmac:
Westminster Shorter Catechism: Question 89. How is the word made effectual to salvation? Answer: The Spirit of God maketh the reading, but especially the preaching of the word, an effectual means of convincing and converting sinners, and of BUILDING THEM UP IN HOLINESS and comfort, through faith, unto salvation
Sing F Lau
Be careful to distinguish the salvation that is ETERNAL in nature, and the salvation that is TEMPORAL in nature.
The former is by FREE GRACE of God alone, worked out completely and fully by the Triune God himself. It is purposed, accomplished, and applied fully and completely to individual elect by God's free grace.
The latter is worked out by God's children in obedient response to the grace of God working in them. Temporal salvation, that which relates to the life here and now, is CONDITIONED upon the obedience of God's children to the working of God in them. ... See More
Without making this careful distinction, one will never rightly divide the word of truth concerning salvation.
One salvation, God alone HAS worked for us - by FREE GRACE.
Another salvation, we must work out for ourselves - by our obedient to Father's will for us.
Without this distinction, most people's "by grace alone" is just a meaningless religious slogan...
Joel
The Westminster divines could not have stated it any better. The conversion (regeneration) of sinners is first in priority and the building up in holiness (sanctification) only comes in second. In emphasizing holiness or sanctification, let us never forget that true holiness is the product of life in the Spirit.
Danmac
@Joel: Amen!
Sing F Lau
Joel@: regeneration and conversion are distinct and vastly difference. The former is bringing the dead to life. The latter is turning the living from error to the truth, from unrighteousness to godliness.
Regeneration is DEFINITIVE sanctification, once for all, complete, unrepeatable; turning from sin and death to grace and salvation - all by the FREE grace activity of God. FREE means free, man meeting no condition, nor contribute or aid in any sense.
Conversion is PROGRESSIVE sanctification. ongoing throughout the life of a child of God, turning from ignorance of the truth of salvation to truth through the ministry of reproof and correction, and training in righteousness - turning from ungodliness to holiness through the gospel ministry.
Amen and amen - "true holiness is the product of life in the Spirit."
Wayne
Amen brother Sing!
Joel
"First, then, let us meditate a while upon THE NECESSITY OF CONVERSION. If a man is to be saved, he must turn from his sins. "Right about face!" is the marching order for every sinner. There is no hope of forgiveness for him if he will continue with his face as it now is. He must turn from his sin if he would be saved."-C.H. Spurgeon
@Sing: Progressive Sanctification is not conversion. It is true that Definite sanctification takes place during Regeneration but they are not one and the same. Conversion is the direct effect of Regeneration. In the Ordo Salutis, Conversion logically takes place right after Regeneration but that is logical priority and should not be understood chronologically. Whenever there is regeneration then conversion takes place.
Joel
To those confused individuals who presume to teach others on Ordo Salutis, here is a helpful guide for you:
1) election
2) predestination
3) gospel call (general outward call)
4) inward call (effectual calling)
5) regeneration
6) conversion (faith & repentance)
7) justification & adoption
8) sanctification (progressive)
9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)
check the following link for more info:
http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Ordo-Salutis/
Tom
Meaningless Sing? Really?
Sing F Lau
All the Arminians ALSO shout 'salvation by grace ALONE' too, with great emphasis on 'alone'. More than meaningless, it is deceitful and irrational... since man's part play the definitive and crucial role. Many Calvinists' idea not much different... man's role is crucial too...
Sing F Lau
When thinking of the Order of Salvation, it is helpful to separate the various phases/facets in the order into their DISTINCT and LOGICAL phases/facets.
They are, in NUMBER (five of them) and ORDER, these:
- Redemption purposed...
- Redemption accomplished...
- Redemption applied...
- Redemption experienced/evidenced......
- Redemption consummated...
Distinction is the essence of sound theology.
Sing F Lau
In the redemption applied phase, we have:
- justification FREELY by the grace of God
- regeneration FREELY by the grace of God
- adoption FREELY by the grace of God
- gift of the Spirit of adoption FREELY by the grace of God.
[FREELY means without any condition on man's part. He could not meet any condition even if there were any!]
These free and gracious activities of God enable a child of God to respond to the gospel ministry, leading to the redemption EXPERIENCED phase:
- gospel call through the gospel ministry
- INITIAL conversion
- justification by faith (faith evidences the justified state of the believer. The just (justified ones) shall live by faith. IT IS NOT, by faith the condemned unjustified one shall be justified and live... that is how most people understand 'the just shall live by faith.
- Faith justifies a believer that He is a child of God, possession eternal life.
- ONGOING conversion throughout life...
Only in the redemption EXPERIENCED phases are human responses involved. In this phase, there is SYNERGISM.
Sing F Lau
Joel's so-called Order of Salvation:
1) election
2) predestination
3) gospel call (general outward call)
4) inward call (effectual calling)
5) regeneration
6) conversion (faith & repentance)
7) justification & adoption
8) sanctification (progressive)
9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)
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Look at this order for a moment.
This order is teaching that an unjustified man, therefore STILL under the just and righteous condemnation of death is able to respond to the gospel call, in order to get regenerated, able to repent and believe, and then get justified by his believing.
No problem, you can have this, and teach it too.
Sing F Lau
I suggest this order for those who are willing to learn something. It is not for those who have no more room to learn.
- Redemption purposed...
Under this phase you have foreknowledge, predestination, election, etc. All these happened before time.
- Redemption accomplished...
Under this phase, Christ LEGALLY redeemed His people... legal justification by the blood of Christ, righteousness imputed, legal reconciliation,legal adoption, etc. All these happened at the cross. EVEN so, the condemnation took place in the fall of Adam.
- Redemption applied...
Under this phase, what is legal is now made PERSONAL to the individual elect... righteousness APPLIED personally to an individual, justification by the grace of God, removal of condemnation is accompanied with regeneration unto eternal life, personal adoption into the family of God, etc.
- Redemption experienced/evidenced......
Under this phase, the redemption that has been applied is experienced personally. Through the gospel ministry, we are informed of our salvation by God's free grace, we believe and experienced the blessedness of our salvation, see Gen 15:1-6. By faith, Abraham experienced the blessedness of his salvation by God's grace!
Our walking in righteousness evidences or gives proof to others around us of our redemption by the free grace of God.
- Redemption consummated...
Sing F Lau
Joel said "@Sing: ... Progressive Sanctification is not conversion."
I wrote: Conversion is PROGRESSIVE sanctification. ongoing throughout the life of a child of God, turning from ignorance to truth through reproof and correction, and training in righteousness - turning from ungodliness to holiness through the gospel ministry.
CONVERSION (initial faith in Jesus Christ) is the first and initial part of PROGRESSIVE sanctification, and there is conversion from error and sins throughout our whole life, until you and I enter our coffins!
Of course 'progressive sanctification is not conversion,' (just like we say. 'Texas is not USA') because conversion is only the INITIAL part of the progressive sanctification.
Distinction is the essence of sound theology. Otherwise it is Muddled Theology... like saying an unjustified man, therefore still under the condemnation of death, is able to believe in order to be justified by God.
Sing F Lau
1689.13.1 on 'Of Sanctification' states:
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They who are united to Christ, effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart and a new spirit created in them through the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection, ARE ALSO FARTHER SANCTIFIED, really and personally(1) through the same virtue, by His Word and Spirit dwelling in them;(2) the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed,(3) and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified,(4) and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces,(5) to the practice of all true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.(6)
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FARTHER SANCTIFICATION presupposes the DEFINITIVE sanctification, i.e. separated out of the condemned, dead and alienated state THROUGH justification, regeneration, and adoption - the once for all, complete and perfect and unrepeatable FREE GRACE acts of God in the effectual call - out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation, by the FREE GRACE of God, i.e. man playing absolutely NO, ZERO, role.
'ALSO' means in addition to the definitive sanctification, there is this FARTHER sanctification through the gospel ministry... that brings about the initial conversion to Christ, and thereafter a whole life of conversion from falsehood and lies and sins to truth and righteousness and godliness.
Sing F Lau
Joel @ Progressive Sanctification is not conversion. It is true that Definite sanctification takes place during Regeneration but they are not one and the same. Conversion is the direct effect of Regeneration. In the Ordo Salutis, Conversion logically takes place right after Regeneration but that is logical priority and should not be understood chronologically. Whenever there is regeneration then conversion takes place.
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Few OBVIOUS errors here:
1. Progressive sanctification is conversion, since conversion is a lifelong process beginning with the initial conversion to Christ through the gospel ministry, and goes on till the last breath of a child of God. No conversion, not ongoing sanctification!
2. Definitive sanctification does not take place during regeneration.
Regeneration takes place at definitive sanctification. Regeneration is ONE PART of the definitive sanctification by God's free grace, God's act of calling an elect who is condemned dead and alienated to that of grace and salvation. Calling one that is condemned, dead and alienated to that of grace and salvation necessarily requires JUSTIFICATION, REGENERATION, and ADOPTION.
3. "Conversion logically takes place right after Regeneration". Wrong.
Conversion takes place after regeneration - that is the correct chronological order. BUT it is PLAIN WRONG to say that conversion takes place RIGHT AFTER regeneration. Look at Cornelius. His conversion took place after the gospel ministered by Peter. But Cornelius was obviously regenerated long before Peter came to the scene. His devout life of prayers and works of righteousness, and acceptance with God, are indisputable evidences that Cornelius was regenerated long before, not just right before his conversion!
4. "Whenever there is regeneration then conversion takes place." Plain wrong too.
Some regeneration is never accompanied by conversion through the gospel ministry. Some of God's children are incapable of being reached by the gospel ministry.
SO ALSO there are God's justified people who are incapable of being reached with the gospel, and therefore not justified by their faith. But every one is justified by the free grace of God in effectual calling. This alone ensures that the promised salvation is SURE to every elect.
THREE obvious errors in one short paragraph...
PHEW! And you are a Calvinistic teacher in Israel!
I tremble!
