Some questions on hell!

Pitch black of the outer darkness of hell

On Jan 18, 2009, a brother wrote:
I have a couple of questions perplexing enough which I picked up during the Bible Study. I hope you can help me here.

1. Was hell created by God?
2. When was hell created? Together with the rest of creation before the fall or after the fall?
3. Does God rule hell? Just as often we describe God as King of Heaven. If God is the ruler of hell, is He not then King of hell ( I have no intention to be disrespectful of God ), as I learned today that God rules hell also.
4. Also related to hell, the pastor mentioned there are several degree of punishment in hell. If more sins are committed or more heinous sins are committed on earth, the punishment is more severe.

I hope to have biblical basis for the four questions and stand ready to learn- as these notions were the first time in my entire life I learn about them. Please help

Thank you
=======

Dear Brother,
My apology for a delayed response. Like you said, these are perplexing questions with serious implications and I needed some time to think and search through the Scriptures. When I first read the questions I do have some distinct impression, but I wanted to be sure myself. I sounded out the questions with some other students of God's word. The exchanges are quite interesting... some ideas you may have heard expressed at the Bible study. I will compile the exchanges, you can read through them after reading the gist here.

I am glad that you picked up those questions during the Bible study. I am always delighted when my people form questions in their mind. It troubles me when my people have no questions on the subject being studied!

Please find some thoughts following each questions. Please feel free to ask further questions... we will search the Scriptures together and be more instructed on the subject.


1. Was hell created by God?
a. First it is important to know exactly what the question is asking.
- I am assuming that the question is asking whether hell was created by God like the heaven and earth were created by God in the beginning. That would be very different from asking whether hell is the consequence of God's judicial pronouncement against sin.
- Then we need to make sure what is meant by hell. The word 'hell' is used in quite many different ways in the Scriptures. I am assuming that the question meant 'hell' as that eternal, conscious state and place of separation from God, prepared and designed by God as a place of just, deserved punishment for the wicked. That's how hell is commonly understood.
- [The Scriptures does indicate that "hell" is quite distinct from the "lake of fire." "Hell" is the holding place for the spirit of the dead between death and resurrection. After the judgment day,  it is the lake of fire for eternity." See Rev 20:11-15.]
- I will speak of hell as it is popularly understood, i.e the place of eternal torment for the wicked, those whose name were not written in the book of life.

b. With that in mind, when I read the question my first reaction was, 'why did hell need to be created by God?'
- I was thinking, hell is the product and result of sins that separates angels and men from God. I understand hell as a state of being separated from God, as the wages of sin, i.e. earned and brought about by sin. When there was no sin, there was no need or place for hell! It seems to me that it is sin that 'created' hell; it is sin that brought forth that separation from God, a judicial condemnation upon sin.

What's the biblical reasons behind those thoughts?
i. We read the plainest declaration in Gen 1:31, "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."

There is a so-called 'logic' that goes this way: God created 'every thing', and there is hell, therefore God must have created hell too. However they would not apply the same 'logic' and conclude, 'there is devil, therefore God created the devil too'! Therein lies the fallacy of their so called 'logic.'

And 'every thing' in that wonderful declaration would certainly include hell, IF - IF - IF hell was indeed created by God. Therefore, if hell was indeed created by God, then hell must be among every thing that God pronounced as VERY GOOD. This not only make no sense to a sound mind, it also sounds blasphemous to a god fearing heart! If there is biblical evidence that hell was a creation of God, I have not seen it. I would like to be shown the evidence of such claim.

ii. I believe we have no biblical evidence of God creating outside of the six days of creation. "And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made." He rested from ALL his work which he has made. If hell was indeed created by God, then hell must be created together with every thing else that was created by God in the creation week.

Some would respond, "Ok, hell was not created during the creation week, but God could have created it afterward." Well, the passage says, God rested from ALL His work of creation. To say that God created hell outside the creation week is contradicting that plain declaration. They who differ may wish to offer some biblical evidence.


2. When was hell created? Together with the rest of creation before the fall or after the fall?
a. From the above, it is concluded that hell was not a creation of God. It is not part of God's creative work. It is no part of God's work of creation. So it is a moot question! But there is hell. So how did hell come about?

There is a simple question in the catechism that goes like this: 'How does God execute his decrees?' The answer goes this way, "God executes his decrees in the works of creation and providence.' Another related question, 'What are God's works of providence?' Answer: God's works of providence are, His most holy, wise, and powerful preserving and governing all His creatures, and all their actions."

Why do I quote these two questions? To show that hell DID NOT come under God's work of creation; but comes under the purview of God's works of providence. Hell is part of God's works of providence - i.e. His most holy, wise and powerful governing and dealing with the wicked creatures!

God did not create hell. Hell is the ultimate evil the wicked creatures brought upon the themselves in God's providential dealing with them. Scriptures say, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Wages is what the wicked earned and deserved.

Death here is contrasted to eternal life, and it is eternal death, i.e. eternal separation from God, which is really the essence of hell. God in His works of providence, did prepare the wages of sin, i.e. hell, that conscious state and place of eternal separation from God, for the wicked. Hell is the deserved payment prepared by God for the wicked. And that preparation displayed the holiness, righteousness, and justice of God.

Matthew 25:41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."
He most certainly did prepare everlasting fire for the devil and his angels. Everlasting fire is the nature of the punishment in hell. It is not the same as hell, that "conscious state and place of separation from God, designed by God as a place of just, deserved punishment for the wicked."

If hell was created, then it was created before there was no devil and his angels (they were good angels before they rebelled). It is obvious that the preparation took place when the devil and his angels already existed, i.e. AFTER the rebellion of some angels had taken place.

Also, rebellion of the devil and his angels took place before the fall took place in the garden of Eden. And what was prepared for the devil and his angels, is equally suited for those whose allegiance is unto the devil and his angels.


3. Does God rule hell? Just as often we describe God as King of Heaven. If God is the ruler of hell, is He not then King of hell ( I have no intention to be irrespectful of God ), as I learned today God rules hell also.

If by 'does God rule hell' you mean whether God exercises full jurisdiction and sovereignty over hell, then I would answer in the affirmative. And hell shall stay the way God has prepared it, and those for whom God has prepared it shall surely inhabit it, and for as long as God has determined it. Hell will not be the way man or the devil imagine it, or change it. None have any say about their stay in hell, or the changes they want to make to it. God is the ruler over all things that exist in His creation... and that includes hell.

Jude 6 reads, "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." This most certainly speaks of God's jurisdiction over these wicked angels."

If God doesn't rules over hell, then who does? Satan, the prince of the devils? What a horrible and frightening thought! Blessed be the God of heaven who has full authority and jurisdiction over hell.

God is indeed the King of Heaven in the sense that He is the glorious and majestic Being in heaven, who is adored and worshiped and praised by all in heaven. We can't say that of God in the same sense with regard to hell. God is no King of hell. Hell is no part of His kingdom, and He exercises no kingship over hell. It is far removed from Him and His kingdom, and that's what made hell such a horrible place. The inhabitants of hell are no subjects of His kingdom. The inhabitants of hell do not recognized God as their King, nor do they worship and praise Him. So no, God is not the king of hell. That's a title is more fitting for Satan!


4. Also related to hell, the pastor mentioned there are several degree of punishment in hell. If more sins are committed or more heinous sins are committed on earth, the punishment is more severe.

a. Consider this passage: Matthew 25:41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."
Please note: it seems to say that the most respectable and self-righteous religious men who are without Christ end up in exactly the same place as the devil himself. If the pastor's idea is true, then the Lord has done great injustice by lumping them together with the devil and his angels. If there are indeed several degree of punishment in the one same everlasting fire, then the pastor may argue that the one same everlasting fire has different compartments for different types of sinners, or somehow the same fire affects each individuals differently... perhaps the more sins-blackened ones would absorb the fiery pain greater, and the less sin-balckened ones proportionately less. I'm speaking as a fool.

Another question from the catechism (I thought good RBs memorized the catechism!!!):
Q: What does every sin deserve?
A: Every sin deserves God's wrath and curse, both in this life, and that which is to come.
Proof texts supplied: Gal 3:10, Mt 24:1.

Just ONE sin not forgiven is enough to damn a man to the everlasting fire.

b. The idea of the several degree of rewards/punishment is a just principle... in this life as a disciple, here and now. Punishment must always be just and proportionate to the crime. This principle is laid down and emphasized by Christ himself.
Lu 12:47-8 "And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

Please note that this passage is the Lord Jesus dealing with His SERVANTS who are here on earth. The same truth is emphasized in the parable of the talents. In fact nearly all the parables deal with the subject of discipleship.

Mt 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

In this life, the general principle that temporal blessings (rewards) are commensurate with our faithfulness and obedience as God's children, and Christ's disciples. Our enjoyment of temporal salvation is much conditioned upon our working out our own salvation with far and trembling. That's the main lessons of the parables.

c. When we come to eternal salvation... the enjoyment of heaven and eternal bliss... it would be very out of place to say that there are degrees of blessedness in heaven. However, this is a very common idea, EVEN among so called reformed folks who ought to know better. They are the one who mouth slogan like, 'By Grace Alone.'If it is indeed by grace alone, then how does our good works ever come into the equation of our eternal blessedness? It is the good works of the god-man Jesus Christ ALONE that secured our eternal blessedness. And please, ALONE means ALONE. Christ ALONE purchased the ONE SAME ETERNAL SALVATION for each and every one of His elect. And each elect shall inherit the ONE and the SAME ETERNAL SALVATION.

The trouble is, most folks do not distinguish eternal salvation by Christ's works alone, and temporal salvation in this life through their obedience to their holy and heavenly calling. The principle that applies on earth, is mistakenly brought into heaven - with all the resultant confusion, contradiction, and inconsistencies. One thing I learned from Olyott is this: "distinction is the essence of sound theology."

Please consider this wonderful statement: "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." Mt 25:34.
These glorious words are spoke to all the sheep ['ALL' because v32 reads, 'And before him shall be gathered ALL NATIONS...'] All them on his right hand are blessed of the Father, I believe in EXACTLY the same manner and extent in the ETERNAL sense, and each shall enter into exactly the same INHERITANCE of life eternal, verse 46.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ..." ALL spiritual blessings in heavenly places are in Christ and Christ alone.

O grace upon grace, and all glory be to God. Why are men so intent to sneak their own works into both their salvation and eternal happiness? Rewards apply to life here and now as disciples. Eternal blessedness is entirely and wholly and solely by GRACE and GRACE ALONE, based solely on the works of Christ ALONE!

I thank my God and Saviour that my eternal blessedness is entirely based upon the perfect works of Christ, and nothing upon the rags of my feeble righteousness. Hallelujah!

I hope to have biblical basis for the three questions and stand ready to learn- as these notions were the first time in my entire life I learn about them. Please help.

Dear brother, I am encouraged by your desire for biblical basis. Yes, Scriptures alone is THE ONLY authority for our belief and practices. At the the first meeting with the NS trainees at Camp Cyrus in BM, I told them 3 principles: 1. Christians are the people of the Book; 2. The Book is given to us by our Father to make us wise unto our salvation, therefore it can be understood; 3. Seek and you shall find... please learn to seek the truth like the Bereans.

I humbly hope that what I have said above have some biblical basis.

Thanks for the opportunity to learn.
May our Lord bless us to know His beauty and glory, and His great love for His people.

sing

What are you offering? And to who?

'Here, please accept this flower. Please take it.'
Who do you think is the offer made to,
to one who is dead, to one who is alive?
I know the superstitious folk offer all sorts of things
- bank notes of the Bank of Hell, roast pork,
all the delicacies you can think of -
to the dead! 

Preaching and Free Offer

Howdy Sing,
Some questions to help me better understand where you are coming from before I continue the discussion.

1. Do all men have an obligation to believe in Christ, placed on them by God?

2. Is it right to freely offer Christ to all men?

3. Can, or does, God ever see the elect as sinful?

4. Is evangelism needed, and if so, why?

Thanks, A forgiven sinner,

Brainy Giant

=======

 

Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:59 am

Brainy Giant

BG: Some questions to help me better understand where you are coming from before I continue the discussion.

## I am coming from the deep of the south seas... I have said something for the discussion to continue. If you don't understand what I have said, then ask. If you disagree, then state why and give your understanding.

You freely asked, and I freely offer my sandy (not concrete) opinions of the south seas. A lad in the south seas can only offer a sandy opinion - no smooth, soft mud around.

1. Do all men have an obligation to believe in Christ, placed on them by God?

## All men being sinners are under obligation to repent towards God. NO sinner has any right to remain in his sins. Every single sinner is under divine obligation - because of the covenant of creation - to repent and turn from his sins. And none would repent but those whom God has sovereignly and freely and effectually called to grace and salvation.

I do believe the question sounds stupid [i.e. lacking common sense!] to me... now please know that I am not being rude. I am not. God is my witness. Just think, why do I think the question is stupid?

Why are all men under the divine obligation to believe Christ as Saviour when Christ WAS NOT given by God to be the saviour of all men? Why are all men to believe Christ as their Saviour when Christ is not the Saviour of all men, BUT His own people? That would amount to God putting some men under divine obligation to believe a big fat lie!

It is contrary to God's character for God to put any man under divine obligation to believe a lie - i.e. to believe that Christ is his Saviour when He had assuredly decreed that Christ is the Saviour of  His own people. those given to Him by the Father.

I do believe all God's children are under divine obligation to repent and believe in their Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. He is their Lord and Saviour. Upon the basis of His life and death, they have been justified, regenerated and adopted. They are children first by God's free grace, then they are called to believe the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation, Eph 1:13.

2. Is it right to freely offer Christ to all men?

Your question PRESUPPOSES that the preaching of the gospel constitutes a free offer of Christ, and to all men. I question whether the preaching of the gospel constitutes a free offer of Christ at all? I do believe the preaching of the gospel is the heralding and proclamation of the good news of salvation already accomplished by the Lord Jesus Christ. There IS NOT an offer of anything to any one. The hearers are called to believe the good news... and tell you what... ONLY those that ARE SAVED by God - i.e. already justified, regenerated and adopted, with the indwelling Spirit of God working faith in them - will receive the gospel. Why? Because the gospel of salvation is ALREADY TRUE of them by God's free grace through the effectual call.

As a preacher, I have nothing to offer to sinners. I am not sent to offer anything. I am sent to preach the gospel, to announce the glad tidings of salvation already accomplished and applied, and to call the hearers to believe the gospel. I have good news of salvation to announce to my hearers. I call the hearers to believe the good news... ALL THE TIME conscious that only God's children (i.e. the elect that are already effectually called out of their state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation) among them are capable of believing the good news. All others will perceive the gospel as foolishness, and the preachers of the gospel as babbling fools.

And the gospel preachers who offer Christ to those dead in trespasses and sins are likened to sincere BUT foolish and deceived men who offer  Big Macs to dead men. To offer Christ to the dead is not only foolishness but also injuriously insulting to the dead. To offer Christ to the children of God is presumptuous, and redundant. To proclaim the gospel and call the hearers to believe the good news is wise. Hold forth the good news of salvation and summon the hearers to believe it... and ONLY those who have eternal life among the hearers shall believe.

WHOEVER BELIEVES HAS - HAS - HAS ETERNAL LIFE - is a declarative statement of fact, and not a conditional statement of offer - i.e. the dead who believes will have life. Bread is for the nourishment of the living!!! Foolish preachers think bread is for the dead to eat, so that they may have life.

3. Can, or does, God ever see the elect as sinful?

Oh, yes! The elect are ALWAYS sinful in and of themselves. However, they are perfect and sinless in Christ. There are God's elect who are not his children yet because they are not effectually called to grace and salvation yet, and there are God's elect who are already His children because they have been effectually called unto grace and salvation. There are God's children that have gone to glory.

All the elect of God ARE LEGALLY justified by the blood of Christ. Christ suffered and bore away all their sins. LEGALLY they are already justified and are LEGALLY righteous. But they are still personally, and practically sinful. When they are VITALLY justified at effectual calling and are VITALLY righteous, they are still practically and experientially sinful. The greatest saint would still cry out, "O wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from this body of death."

But OBJECTIVELY, God the Judge see His elect through the merit of Christ alone, and they are perfectly righteous and sinless in His eyes. Subjectively, God the Father deals with the sinfulness of His children... and whacks them as they deserve.

4. Is evangelism needed, and if so, why?

The preaching of the gospel and the ministry of the word is very essential... BUT ONLY for the purpose it was divinely intended for, not what man imagined it for. It is as essential as the father going to the grocery stores to secure all that wholesome food (no junk food please... ) for nourishing the child that has been born. God's children - born by the free and sovereign grace of God, without any aid or cooperation or assistance from men - need to be nourished and nurtured while here waiting to enter into their eternal inheritance. Their eternal salvation is as secured as it could be by the free grace of God - they are justified, regenerated and adopted, and indwelt by the Spirit of God, as fit as could be for eternal glory. But God cares for the well-being of His children here and now in this world. And the means appointed for that end is the preaching of the gospel and the ministry of the word. Evangelism is to gather God's children into NT churches... to be nourished and nurtured.

Sorry, if it is all just sand... no smooth mud around. 

sing in the south seas.

======

Howdy SSS (South Sea Sing)

Good brother,
sing: Sorry, if it is all just sand... no smooth mud around.
Do you have any "proof" texts that addresses your answers biblically? Or any section of Scripture that teaches these positions?

A forgiven sinner, B G
=======

Brainy Giant,

No proof texts. I told you that there is no smooth mud in the south seas.
You are the teacher... you asked the questions. I answered yours questions the best I can. If you don't like my answers or want to marks them wrong, freely do so. You give the proof texts to show that they are wrong.

singing silly songs in the south seas.
=======

On Feb 14, 2007, at 9:40 PM, Brainy Giant wrote:

Salutations my 3S'ed brother,
Sing: “If you don't like my answers or want to mark them wrong, you give the proof texts to show that they are wrong.”

Sing, I will give, as best I can, the Scriptural basis for my answers as my current light allows.

1. Do all men have an obligation to believe in Christ, placed on them by God?
Yes all men have a duty to believe on Christ.

I John 3:22-23 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

In this section, John encourages the keeping of God's moral commandments. In other words, doing what has commanded all men to do. He sums up those commandments in one, "And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another..."

It is a moral commandment placed on all men to believe on the name of His Son.":

2. Is it right to freely offer Christ to all men?
Yes, it is.
Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,"

God's eternal decrees are secret, we cannot know the extent nor the objects of them before faith manifests them. We are here instructed that "all men" have had the grace of God manifested to them. Not every single person, but every class and tribe of men. We must then proclaim God's grace to all men.

Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

In addition to this, we must be mindful of Jesus desires. Jesus desired the sinful people of Jerusalem to come to Him, but they would not. This implies an offer that they refused. Jesus' desires are not His decrees.


3. Can, or does, God ever see the elect as sinful?
Yes, he does.
"All men, being naturally children of disobedience, are also by nature children of wrath: God is angry with the wicked every day." (Matthew Henry) Jesus makes it clear in John 3 that propitiation is only proper through conversion, or is only assured through faith. Before then God views them as children of wrath, as condemned.

4. Is evangelism needed, and if so, why?
Yes. It is commanded. Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

It is to be prayed for. Matthew 9:38 "Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest".

Good brother, the hour is late and I need to get to bed. This is not a full nor even proper answer to the questions, but it must do for tonight.

A forgiven sinner,
Brainy Giant
============

Brother Brainy,
Your question and answer
2. Is it right to freely offer Christ to all men? Yes, it is.
Your proof text:
Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,"

Yes, the gospel of salvation by God's free grace is to be proclaimed to all classes of people.
BUT where does it say about the freely offer Christ?
Where does it even hint about freely offer Christ to all men?

By the free grace of God, the elect are UNITED to Christ in the effectual call to grace and salvation - justified, regenerated and adopted, and indwelt with the Holy Spirit. To offer Christ to such a person is REDUNDANT. Christ is ALREADY his by God's free grace. Your free offer comes a LITTLE TOOOOO LATE! Such a person need to hear the gospel of Christ proclaimed to him and called to repentance and faith - to believe the truth of his salvation by God's free grace through the righteousness of Christ alone.

Do your remember reading the popular and oft quoted passage - "contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints" To whom was the faith delivered? The faith here refers to that body of gospel truths. Was the faith delivered to sinners dead in their sins and trespasses, or was it delivered to the saints? Who were able to receive the faith delivered by the apostles - those dead in sins and trespasses or the saints? And who are the saints BUT those whom God, by His effectual call, has separated from the state of sins and death into that state of righteousness and eternal life? To the saints, them that ARE SAVED, the faith speaks of the power of God unto salvation. To the perishing, the faith is a body of nonsense. 1Co 1:18 "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."

You further said: “God's eternal decrees are secret, we cannot know the extent nor the objects of them before faith manifests them. We are here instructed that "all men" have had the grace of God manifested to them. Not every single person, but every class and tribe of men. We must then proclaim God's grace to all men.”

Free offer is nonsense even though we cannot know the extent or the objects of them before faith manifest them. You said 'FAITH MANIFEST THEM...' Yes, they must have eternal life, i.e. already in UNION WITH CHRIST, if they possess faith to manifest their election unto salvation. We may not know who are the object of God's grace, but we know on the authority of Scriptures that a man must be an object of God's saving grace, i.e. effectually called to grace and salvation, already UNITED to Christ, before he has the grace of faith worked in him to manifest that divine work of grace.

Yes, proclaim the glorious grace of God in saving sinners through His Son Jesus Christ. But where is the freely offer of Christ. I think they meant very different thing. It is stupid to offer Christ to the spiritually dead... and it is redundant to offer Christ to those who already possess Christ through the gracious work of effectual calling to eternal salvation.

Imagine a man come along and offer your a million bucks if you believe! And I come along and inform you the good news that a million bucks have been deposited into your account. QUITE different story, are they not!

You quoted Matthew 23:37 and commented: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" In addition to this, we must be mindful of Jesus desires. Jesus desired the sinful people of Jerusalem to come to Him, but they would not. This implies an offer that they refused. Jesus' desires are not His decrees.”

May I suggest that Jesus was censuring the wicked and blind religious leaders of Israel for hindering God's children (yes, they are God's children by God's free grace) from coming to Christ. Sinners dead in their sins need no hindering whatsoever from coming to Christ. They already hate Christ enough. However many God's children among the Jews did not follow Jesus Christ for fear of being abused and excommunicated by religious leaders.

Jesus DID NOT desire the sinful people of Jerusalem to come to Him. He declared that unless the Father effectually draws them, they would never come to Christ... because unless the Father draws them, they happily REMAIN in their state of sin and death. The chicks belong to the hen... they that Christ desired to gather to Himself outwardly and timely are hindered by the religious leaders of Israel.

Case dismissed. Student disagrees with teacher.
sing
===============

Brother Brawny Giant.

You asked and answered:
3. Can, or does, God ever see the elect as sinful? Yes, he does.
"All men, being naturally children of disobedience, are also by nature children of wrath: God is angry with the wicked every day." (Matthew Henry) Jesus makes it clear in John 3 that propitiation is only proper through conversion, or is only assured through faith. Before then God views them as children of wrath, as condemned.”

Propitiation is only proper through conversion???????
So, can I conclude - no conversion, no propitiation?
Propitiation is only assured through faith???????
So, can I conclude - no faith, no propitiation?

So, Christ's righteousness and blood was not sufficient and PROPER to secure the full and complete propitiation of God's just and holy wrath against His elect? Something must be added to it to make it effectual? So, Christ did NOT finished the work redeeming His people? That's complete denial of free grace!

Now, you do speak more like a particular arminian!!! So the decisive factor is the act of man, isn't it?

Why can't God sees the elect as perfectly righteous in the LEGAL OBJECTIVE sense for Christ sake, and at the same time also see them as sinful in and of themselves???

NO, the elect in Christ ARE ALREADY LEGALLY JUSTIFIED. Their sins - past, present and future - were already imputed to Christ when Christ died on the cross. If that didn't take place, than I fear one has to deal with his own sins. Christ is not going to die a second time to suffer for those sins not imputed to him the first time!!!

To say that God views them as LEGALLY CONDEMNED is bearing false witness against God. It is denying that God has accepted the sacrifice of Christ for their legal justification - the removal of their legal condemnation in Adam.

The elect children are sinful, but NOT CONDEMNED. To say that God sees them as sinful, and to say that God sees them as legally condemned are very different thing!

puzzled, and flabbergasted,
sing
============

Brainy Brian,
You asked, answered and quoted:
1. Do all men have an obligation to believe in Christ, placed on them by God?
Yes all men have a duty to believe on Christ.
I John 3:22-23 "And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment."

In this section, John encourages the keeping of God's moral commandments. In other words, doing what has commanded all men to do. He sums up those commandments in one, "And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another..."

Your question is, 'DO ALL MEN...'
There are million worlds of difference between your 'ALL MEN' and John's 'WE'.

1 John 3:22-23 addresses 'WE... WE... WE... WE... WE...' Just who do you think apostle John is addressing? Just who is John encouraging the keeping of God's moral commandments? All men or God's beloved children?

Your 'in other words' is certainly MOST OTHER WORLDLY than what the passage is saying.

sing
=============

Howdy Sing,

BG: Your question and answer"
2. Is it right to freely offer Christ to all men? Yes, it is.
Your proof text: Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,"

sing: Yes, the gospel of salvation by God's free grace is to be proclaimed to all classes of people. Where does it say about the freely offer Christ? Where does it say about freely offer Christ to all men?.

What does "gospel" mean Sing? It is "good news." How can the good news of
Christ dying for sinners be proclaimed to folks without an offer? What would be
good news about that? What is a free offer of Christ? "Come unto me all you
that are heavy laden." Isn't that an offer?

Is a gospel sermon, by your definition, a sermon that sends them to the
Father (to check their election) instead of the Son? Election is not the Gospel.

sing: Such a person need to hear the gospel of Christ proclaimed to him and called to repentance and faith - to believe the truth of his salvation by God's free grace.

Isn't a call to faith and repentance an offer?

BG further said:
God's eternal decrees are secret, we cannot know the extent nor the objects of them before faith manifests them. We are here instructed that "all men" have had the grace of God manifested to them. Not every single person, but every class and tribe of men. We must then proclaim God's grace to all men.

sing: It is stupid to offer Christ to the spiritually dead... and it is redundant to offer Christ to those who already possess Christ through the gracious work of effectual calling to eternal salvation.

Tell that to Jeremiah in the valley of dry bones.

Imagine a man come along and offer your a million bucks if you would believe! And I come along and inform you the good news that a million bucks have been deposited into your account. QUITE different story, are they not!

Both would require believing your report, would they not?

You quoted:
Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" In addition to this, we must be mindful of Jesus desires. Jesus desired the sinful people of Jerusalem to come to Him, but they would not.

This implies an offer that they refused. Jesus' desires are not His decrees.

Jesus DID NOT desire the sinful people of Jerusalem to come to Him. He
declared that unless the Father effectually draws them, they would never come to
Christ... because unless the Father draws them, they are in their state of sin
and death. The chicks belong to the hen... they that Christ desired to
gather to Himself outwardly and timely are hindered by the religious leaders of
Israel.


What? Jesus came to call the righteous to repentance. It is the healthy that
need a doctor?

A forgiven sinner,
Brainy Giant
=======

Brother Brainy,
See some comments below in your reply:

Brainy: What does "gospel" mean, Sing? It is "good news." How can the
good news of Christ dying for sinners be proclaimed to folks without an offer?
What would be good news about that? What is a free offer of Christ? "Come unto me
all you that are heavy laden." Isn't that an offer?
Is a gospel sermon, by your definition, a sermon that sends them to the Father (to check their election) instead of the Son? Election is not the Gospel.

## The gospel is the good news of what God HAS DONE in Christ to save His people. It is NOT some news with the offer that God WILL DO something on the condition that man accept that offer. Preaching the gospel is the proclamation of the good news and calling the hearers to believe the gospel... and it is ONLY THOSE ALREADY IN UNION WITH CHRIST by the free grace [and not free offer!] of God in effectual calling to grace and salvation. These are ALREADY IN POSSESSION OF CHRIST. These are called to believe the gospel.

It is REDUNDANT to OFFER Christ to those already in possession of Christ by God's free grace. It is such a simple truth. Why is it so difficult to accept? You would offer Christ to those ALREADY in possession of Christ by God's free grace. Your sincere offer is far too late!

I have nothing to offer. I have a good news to tell the hearers, and urging them to believe the truth of what God has done in them... and those in whom this is true, i.e. God has done the work of grace, have the grace of faith to believe.

You asked: What is a free offer of Christ? You need to answer your own belief and your own question. I don't believe such idea and don't use such term.


Brainy: Isn't a call to faith and repentance an offer?

## If it is, then we speak different language. What do you offer when you call the hearers to repent and believe? Do you offer them Christ? Salvation? Heaven? Those who would accept your 'offer', ARE THEY NOT ALREADY IN POSSESSION of Christ, and salvation, and destined for heaven - ALL BY GOD'S FREE GRACE? Or do you believe that the dead in sin can accept your Christ, or whatever you are offer them?

TO OFFER is to present or proffer (something, someone, oneself, etc) for acceptance or rejection. Beggars offer themselves to be accepted or rejected. Misguided and deluded preachers offer 'Christ' of their own imaginations to be accepted or rejected by sinners. They make Christ, the Lord of lords and King of kings the weak pathetic pleading beggar!

Christ sends His laborers to gather the lost sheep into the NT churches. He sends His preachers to bring those ALREADY effectually called to grace and salvation to believe the truth concerning their salvation by God's free grace.

Brainy: Tell that to Jeremiah in the valley of dry bones.

sing
Go and ask Ezekiel whether he offered anything to the dry bones!!!
Show me the slightest HINT of an offer of anything to anyone, and the slightest indication of the acceptance or rejection of an offer if there is one.
I think it is VERY PLAIN AND OBVIOUS that the passage is a plain declaration of what the LORD Himself will do to a people as dead and as helpless as the dead dry bones!

Please feel free and go and make all your sincere offers to them dry bones. Ezekiel CERTAINLY did not make any offer. People are not letting the Scriptures speak for itself. They are making the Scriptures to speak their own imagination.

Brainy: Imagine a man come along and offer you a million bucks if you believe! And I come along and inform you the good news that a million bucks have been deposited into your account. QUITE different story, are they not! Brainy: Both would require believing your report, would they not?

sing
YES, and yes, BUT and but you miss the whole point of the illustration.
The former speaks of an offer... a perversion of what the gospel preaching is all about, offering something to the hearers on the condition that they must believe it IN ORDER to make it true. It is not already true, but if they would believe it, it would then become true.

The latter speaks of the declaration of the good news - of what is already true - and calling such to believe what is already true.

They are a whole world of difference - to believe to make something to become true, and to believe something which is already true.

Brainy said:
Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" In addition to this, we must be mindful of Jesus desires. Jesus desired the sinful people of Jerusalem to come to Him, but they would not. This implies an offer that they refused. Jesus' desires are not His decrees.

sing replied:
Jesus DID NOT desire the sinful people of Jerusalem to come to Him. He declared that unless the Father effectually draws them, they would never come to Christ... because unless the Father draws them, they are in their state of sin and death. The chicks belong to the hen... they that Christ desired to gather to Himself outwardly and timely are hindered by the religious leaders of Israel.

Brainy asked: What? Jesus came to call the righteous to repentance. It is the healthy that need a doctor?

## May I ask: What is the offer? To whom was it tendered? Who rejected His offer?

Then, what is the opposite of the healthy - is it the spiritually dead or the spiritually sick? If spiritually dead, are such able to repent? If spiritually sick, such need conversion and repentance.

Who needs a doctor - is it the spiritually dead or the spiritually sick? Is a doctor to cure a sickness or to restore the spiritually dead to eternal life? Who are the righteous? How do they become righteous - by their believing?

NOTHING, absolutely nothing can hinder Christ from effectually calling all His redeemed to grace and salvation in the eternal sense. Many things can hinder God's children from believing the gospel truth delivered by Jesus and His servants - from receiving the medicine to cure the various diseases. Nothing can prevent the elect from being GIVEN eternal life and salvation by the Triune God.

just my thoughts,
sing
-----

Where art thou, king Solomon?

 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them,
I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came,
and the winds blew, and beat upon that house;
and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

Here is an interesting discussion...

November 4 at 11:41pm ·
EK wrote
To Reformed Calvinism adherents, please share your thoughts on the state of king Solomon. Anyone else is free to join add their comments as well.

JW
God only knows :)

CP
if he has saving faith and his behavior is not erratic then he is elect and regenerated!
Oh, I'm sorry I am not an adherent to reformed Calvinism. I jumped the gun!

JW
Charles I did the same thing lol

JS
God does not put his Spirit in the unregenerate. If they get His Spirit they are elect and regenerated. Sealed for eternity. Saved by grace.

Sing F Lau
The state of king Solomon: very stately.

Well he didn't persevere in a life of holiness and faith to the end, so he was in a very BAD state! He was in no GOOD state at all... and surely you know what that meant!
(pretending to be an adherent to reformed calvinism; I'm a old school baptist)

CP
very well demonstrated the mingled life...regenerate mangled life

EK
Bro Sing, from a reformed stand point would such a one as Solomon who did not persevere in faith unto the end be cast into the lake of fire?

CP
anticipating Sing's answer that is a good question!

TH
Can't say it any better than Js if my understanding of Grace is correct.

EK
Would we dare claim that a non-elect wrote some of the greatest wisdom in scripture? Besides the scripture plainly states that God loved Solomon.

TH
Amen.

CP
The Lord loved the rich young ruler.

EK
I would ask the same question about brother Lot.

JTN
The Lord heard and heeded his prayer. What does Prov 15:9 state:
The Lord is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.

TH
God must have thought pretty highly of Bro Lot also, to have put him to such a test with satan, knowing that he would not forsake him.

CP
I don't believe this verse distinguishes the regenerate and unregenerate. It refers to the wicked and the righteous regenerate.

Desolatite
@Ellis: I begin to see the picture of the shifting SHADOW love of that doctrine and the permission of fully legally justified saints still going to lake of fire and brimstone. Does not that implied JESUS the Christ did NOT complete His works and did not fulfilled the law as He openly proclaimed and also implied Him a liar?

MTR
He was a man of wisdom. Of course, Im unsure that made him saved. Question is, did he repent of his sins like David always did?

EK
Men (regenerate) filled with The Holy Ghost were inspired to write the scriptures. If you consign Solomon to the lake of fire then you must admit he was non elect and unregenerate.
I believe the entirety of God's word was penned by elect regenerated men.

Sing F Lau
EK, @ Bro Sing, from a reformed stand point would such a one as Solomon who did not persevere in faith unto the end be cast into the lake of fire?
======
If they are consistent with their theological premise, then Solomon who messed up his life big time in the end must necessarily end up in lake of fire. Some would even say, "since he did not persevere in a life of faith and holiness to the end, he was NOT EVEN a child of God to begin with." But the reformed folks are hardly consistent though their mock and ridicule their cousins Arminians for their irrationality!

Hey Elder EK, why did you use "lake of fire" instead of "hell" in your question?

EK
Because that is the final destination for the non-elect. The 2nd death.

CP
- LOL -

Sing F Lau
So "hell" is not the final destination, just a temporary place between death and resurrection?

Sing F Lau
Lu 12: 47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
======
Just thinking...
I read this and I always remember Solomon - the wisest among man, and so immensely blessed. A temporary hell for him between his death and resurrection to his eternal glory would be justly deserved stripes - would be just and equitable - if Christ's words be true.

What do you think?

EK
For the child of God, hell on earth yes. I have been there. Otherwise being absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Even for the saints on the other side of the cross of Calvary.

CP
so if we are amillennial how can we be in hell on earth? Can we rein with /Christ and be in hell on earth?

The idea of hell on earth would seem to fit a pre-mil scheme, things getting worse and worse and waiting for the soon coming of Christ to rapture us away from here! Our lives should be rapturous!

EK
There are times when God's people get out of the straight and narrow, and find them selves in the broad path that leads to destruction.

God said in Hosea, MY People are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Not eternally of course, but in a temporal manner.
[when does a man leave the state of time into the state of eternity - at death, or at resurrection?]

EK
Has anyone noticed that that not a single reformed Calvinist has replied to this status? Why? It is because they know they have no consistent answer to the questions that have been posed. To answer would prove their doctrine false in their own eyes.

AW
I have asked the same question to a Pentecostal concerning Samson. The preacher responded that "Obviously Samson must have repented before he died otherwise he will be in hell."

EK
Being elect, not in accordance with works, whether good or evil means just that. God did not base His choice of His people according to what they do, or do not do. Simple fact.

However, those that violate the commands and precepts taught in the word of God will suffer chastening in the here and now.

Want to know what hell on earth is? It is what David experienced after he had Uriah the hittite murdered. He lost the joy of His salvation and begged God to not cast him away.

Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. Psa 51:11-12

Sounds almost like, my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

JD
After being given THE COMMANDS of the Father, which Solomon also stated, and the specific sin for which to repent, the man went away sorrowful. Perhaps he repented. Though, I would dout it. He did not believe even the words of Jesus Himself, and if...

JD
I have no problem, with the term "God chose David" as the definition of the elect. That concept dovetails with David's obvious work of the flesh, which face it, in man's ways, all are guilty. Know I am. Nor, do I have a prolem, with the term, saved...

CP
It would be interesting on this thread to hear from Adrian Warnock in England who is a very prominent RB. Also, Tom Cabral, Lane Chaplin, and Brian Osisek! Maybe we can contact them!

CP
EK, seems that David believed strongly in Hell! The Hebrews believed in Hell but never mention the Lake of Fire or Heaven a lot! Jesus spoke of heaven a lot and of course Hell but never spoke a lot about the Lake of Fire. Paul spoke about being a cast-a-way quiet often and John mentions the Lake of Fire with incredible specifics! It is for the non-elect.

A reformed tweet i got this morning is from RB who believes Solomon is in Hell. Now that is the Lake of Fire for him! How preposterous can one be? Solomon did not persevere to the end with saving faith. Now the wisest man on earth who provided us with great wisdom literature and built a grand Temple was not elect!

His great accomplishments are not evidence of his election quiet the contrary. But he was the son of David and is in the heritage of the elect. There can be no question of his election and eternal justification.

Sing F Lau
What was the hell Jesus spoke about?

Why did Jesus warn His disciples solemnly against the HARSH reality of hell if none of them were ever in danger of finding themselves in hell? I do believe the teaching of Christ DO IMPLY the real danger and possibility of God's children finding themselves in hell between their death and their resurrection to eternal glory.

God's children will end up in eternal glory after resurrection. The eternal state of blessedness STARTS at resurrection, not at death. At death, a child of God enters a state that is still subject to CHANGE, a temporary state still subject to change. It is ONLY at resurrection God's children enter the CHANGELESS state of eternal blessedness.

EK
The teaching on the reality of hell to the disciples is necessary and spiritually healthy to understand what you have been saved from.

I went thru 3.5 years of daily torment as I experienced myself as a hell deserving sinner. I KNOW what I have been saved from, without doubt.

If there is no talk or warning of hell to the disciples, they would not discover their depravity, nor would they see their need for a Savior. Experiencing Hell on earth, discovering the inner darkness and depravity of the individual helps the disciple to work out his own salvation and to make his calling and election sure.

If The Lord did not talk to the disciples about hell, how can you know what you have been delivered from?

I believe Jesus PAID our sin debt in FULL on the cross and when He said it is finished, He meant it. If you or I or any other child of God has to suffer in hell after death, then Jesus did not finish the work The Father gave Him to do and that would make Him a liar. I'll have no part of it.

CP
EK, you are confusing Hell with the Lake of fire. [important point to note.]* Christ death secured our absolute deliverance from the Lake. You were saved from the Lake. Your obedience is your only salvation from the torture of Hades. The judgement for obedience goes deep to the innermost motives of the heart. Not just an outward external compliance but a childlike compliance! God's faith alone delivers us, the elect, from the Lake and our faith in Christ delivers us from the torture of Hell.

Sing F Lau
The teaching on the reality of hell to the disciples is necessary and spiritually healthy to understand what you have been saved from.
===========
How is it necessary when it has no relevance to the disciples, that is, no disciple would even end up in hell? Why warns the black boys that they will turn into white boys since such thing will never happen? The idea makes Jesus to be bluffing the disciples!

And if they had really been saved from hell, all the more pointless to warn them against the REAL DANGER of ending up there.

No, your sentence doesn't make sense.

SS
(IMHO) it's hard to prove an ever burning hell, with just the scriptures , for anyone but the devil and his angles.

EK
Do you understand what you have been saved from? I do. I have had a taste of it, and the experience led me to the foot of the cross.

EK
Again I say, Jesus paid my sin debt in full, nothing for me to pay after leaving my natural body.
Bro Sing, did Jesus pay our debt in full or not?

EK
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. Heb 12:11

Notice. no chastening for THE PRESENT (caps mine) seemeth to be joyous.....

We will suffer chastening for our disobedience in the PRESENT world. Very simple.

The nether world is simply a jail for souls of the non elect awaiting judgment.

EK
Ever heard the saying" having the hell scared out of you"? In my experience of grace I saw myself headed there. It did much to turn me towards Jesus on the cross. Very simple.

I would recommend reading up on experiences of grace. Many relate the same...See More

EK
Bro Scott.
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Matt 25:41

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20:15

Sing F Lau
Bro Sing, did Jesus pay our debt in full or not?
======
That's a very nice question. Thanks.
He most certainly did pay the debt of His elect in full, the wages of which is eternal separate from God, THAT IS, the lake of fire.

So, your rhetorical question resolves nothing! Jesus never warned His disciples against the lake of fire. His redemptive works SAVED them from the lake of fire.

It seems common sense, if Jesus Christ's paying the full debt FREES his people from hell, why would Jesus Christ so earnestly warn his very own disciples against the real danger of hell, unless that hell is fictional or is experienced here on earth???????

Sing F Lau
We will suffer chastening for our disobedience in the PRESENT world. Very simple.
======
How does the reality of suffering chastening for our disobedience in the present world necessarily exclude temporal punishment after death, but before resurrection to glory???

I would like to hear. Thanks.

Sing F Lau
Thank God we have been saved from Hell. Please stop putting God's people back in there.
======
May I conclude then that Jesus' earnest and solemn warnings against hell are just a joke? Jesus never warn His disciples the danger of going to the lake of fire.

I want to make sense of Christ's own words.
Nothing more than that.

EK
Bro, you obviously have not experienced hell on earth.
We can either enter into life by obedience, or hell by disobedience, here in time. Its not complicated.
Teaching that God's elect can go to hell logically concludes that Jesus DID NOT pay our sin debt in full and that HE DID NOT finish the work God sent Him to do.

Does Johnathan teach what you are advocating?

EK
I am done on this status with this conversation. If you want to continue, come to the Primitive Baptist group.

Sing F Lau  
 @ Bro, you obviously have not experienced hell on earth.
=====
You want me to tell you stories? I have plenty!
But I don't base my doctrine on my experiences.
I want to base it on the plain words of Christ. I know you want the same.

Sing F Lau
Keith @ Teaching that God's elect can go to hell logically concludes that Jesus DID NOT pay our sin debt in full and that HE DID NOT finish the work God sent Him to do.
======
Jesus DID pay the full sin debt of His people and delivered them from the lake of fire - which explains why Jesus NEVER warn them against the lake of fire.

Keith @ Does Johnathan teach what you are advocating?
Don't know. I quite doubt it. Does it matter?

EK
OK, apply Jesus warning to the here and now, not after this life.

Sing F Lau
@ OK, apply Jesus warning to the here and now, not after this life.

I would like to, but it simply DOES NOT fit!!!

EK
It does fit, and the implications of going your direction undermine Jesus' work of salvation.
PB Group to continue.

Sing F Lau
What I'm saying confirm and makes sense of Jesus' stern warning against hell to His disciples, as well as the fact that NONE of Christ's redeemed ends up in the lake of fire, but shall be resurrected unto eternal glory. Please prove that what I said undermines Jesus' work of salvation. If Jesus' work of salvation DID save His people from hell, then His stern and earnest of the danger of hell for them would have been a joke... and that's the implications of your settled conviction!
 
"PB Group to continue" - going to the amen gallery?


Thanks for the hardshelling! 

It is coming to 20 years...

l-r: Lim Fong Jwong, Ho Eng Ghee, Poh Boon Sing, Kek Jen Wen

It is coming to 20 years... this Nov 07, 1993

Nov 7, 20 years ago I was ordained and set apart as a minister of Christ, for the work of the gospel ministry. The Lord has most certainly kept and preserved me every step of the way through 20 years of tumultuous but exciting journey. The Lord has not only spared me from wandering off into grievous errors, but has taught me more completely concerning His gospel, and saved me from grievous errors. His love towards the little church, of which I'm a member, is unceasing. May I continue to serve Him faithfully should He sees fit to give me another 20 years. My good wifey will endeavour to keep me young and healthy for the task!

The Lord gave me a truly great woman who is a perfect fit for a minister's wife. "Many daughters have done virtuously, but [my wifey Alice] excellest them all." Pr 31:9. Amen.

Brother Woon and I have stuck together since the beginning of the church May 1, 1993! I thank the Lord for every remembrance of this man of God!

PRAY FOR US Brethren, that we as a little church will remain steadfastly faithful unto the Lord Jesus Christ in this perilous times.

There's a short article here on the ordination:

http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2009/10/iv-call-and-ministry-of-word.html

Sound theology has a way of doing that!

Sound theology has a way of doing that!
So simple, yet so profound.

Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Free from bondage and superstitions, free from fear and anxiety... free in the perfect of righteousness... etc.

1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Continuing in sound doctrines save the pastors teachers from much shame and injuries and much evils... and save his flocks from lies and fables that undermine and injure their hope and comfort and assurance in Christ!

Michael
I love it! I'm lifting as my own.

Sing F Lau 
For one who believes his justification is by his faith in Christ alone, how will he ever be assured of his justification before God?What would happen to his justification when he becomes just a little unbelieving? Does that affect his justification adversely? Well, if justification was by his faith alone, then it must surely be maintained by the same!!!

How much faith must be maintained for the justification to remain valid? Would he know if his weakening faith caused the justification to lapse?

Is his faith, his act of believing, based on sufficient truth heard and understood? Was it sufficient for the justification to take place? How could he be sure that he has been justified indeed? Did he has enough faith?

Is his faith, his act of believing, of the sufficient intensity, and sincerity for the justification to take place??? How could he be sure that he has been justified indeed?Did he has a faith of sufficient quality?

How could such a solemn matter be rested on the weak and fickle ground - a man's own faith, and it alone too? Isn't he suicidal and BEWITCHED by the devil to believe that comfortless lie?

Thank be to God that our justification before Him is based solely upon the perfect and complete righteousness of Christ imputed to us at the  cross, and applied to us personally at our effectual calling by the free and sovereign grace of God. And NOTHING can or will ever undo that completeness and the perfection of that justification!

I can sleep soundly each night! The Lord be praised.

Ahhhhhhh, Sound theology has a wonderful way of doing that!

Amen, and good night!

Sing F Lau
The same goes for anyone who believes that he gets eternal life through his believing!!! Will some measure of unbelief forfeit him of the eternal life he has obtained his believing??? Did he believed enough? Is the quality of his faith sufficient? Can he be sure that his believing has indeed obtained eternal for him?

What disturbing and frightening thought!

Sing F Lau
And the same goes for someone who believes that his final entry into heaven is dependent upon his living a life of faith and holiness!

How will he ever knows with certainty that he attains the level of holiness of life and faith to qualify entry???

Why are people oblivious of the implications of their pet beliefs?

Don't they have the capacity to think anymore?

Scott
James would ask 'Can faith save you?' His answer? Absolutely not.

Elizabeth
That's pretty sweet!



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