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| Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. |
Here is an interesting discussion...
November 4 at 11:41pm ·
EK wrote
To Reformed Calvinism adherents, please share your thoughts on the state of king Solomon. Anyone else is free to join add their comments as well.
JW
God only knows :)
CP
if he has saving faith and his behavior is not erratic then he is elect and regenerated!
Oh, I'm sorry I am not an adherent to reformed Calvinism. I jumped the gun!
JW
Charles I did the same thing lol
JS
God does not put his Spirit in the unregenerate. If they get His Spirit they are elect and regenerated. Sealed for eternity. Saved by grace.
Sing F Lau
The state of king Solomon: very stately.
Well he didn't persevere in a life of holiness and faith to the end, so he was in a very BAD state! He was in no GOOD state at all... and surely you know what that meant!
(pretending to be an adherent to reformed calvinism; I'm a old school baptist)
CP
very well demonstrated the mingled life...regenerate mangled life
EK
Bro Sing, from a reformed stand point would such a one as Solomon who did not persevere in faith unto the end be cast into the lake of fire?
CP
anticipating Sing's answer that is a good question!
TH
Can't say it any better than Js if my understanding of Grace is correct.
EK
Would we dare claim that a non-elect wrote some of the greatest wisdom in scripture? Besides the scripture plainly states that God loved Solomon.
TH
Amen.
CP
The Lord loved the rich young ruler.
EK
I would ask the same question about brother Lot.
JTN
The Lord heard and heeded his prayer. What does Prov 15:9 state:
The Lord is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.
TH
God must have thought pretty highly of Bro Lot also, to have put him to such a test with satan, knowing that he would not forsake him.
CP
I don't believe this verse distinguishes the regenerate and unregenerate. It refers to the wicked and the righteous regenerate.
Desolatite
@Ellis: I begin to see the picture of the shifting SHADOW love of that doctrine and the permission of fully legally justified saints still going to lake of fire and brimstone. Does not that implied JESUS the Christ did NOT complete His works and did not fulfilled the law as He openly proclaimed and also implied Him a liar?
MTR
He was a man of wisdom. Of course, Im unsure that made him saved. Question is, did he repent of his sins like David always did?
EK
Men (regenerate) filled with The Holy Ghost were inspired to write the scriptures. If you consign Solomon to the lake of fire then you must admit he was non elect and unregenerate.
I believe the entirety of God's word was penned by elect regenerated men.
Sing F Lau
EK, @ Bro Sing, from a reformed stand point would such a one as Solomon who did not persevere in faith unto the end be cast into the lake of fire?
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If they are consistent with their theological premise, then Solomon who messed up his life big time in the end must necessarily end up in lake of fire. Some would even say, "since he did not persevere in a life of faith and holiness to the end, he was NOT EVEN a child of God to begin with." But the reformed folks are hardly consistent though their mock and ridicule their cousins Arminians for their irrationality!
Hey Elder EK, why did you use "lake of fire" instead of "hell" in your question?
EK
Because that is the final destination for the non-elect. The 2nd death.
CP
Sing F Lau
So "hell" is not the final destination, just a temporary place between death and resurrection?
Sing F Lau
Lu 12: 47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
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Just thinking...
I read this and I always remember Solomon - the wisest among man, and so immensely blessed. A temporary hell for him between his death and resurrection to his eternal glory would be justly deserved stripes - would be just and equitable - if Christ's words be true.
What do you think?
EK
For the child of God, hell on earth yes. I have been there. Otherwise being absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Even for the saints on the other side of the cross of Calvary.
CP
so if we are amillennial how can we be in hell on earth? Can we rein with /Christ and be in hell on earth?
The idea of hell on earth would seem to fit a pre-mil scheme, things getting worse and worse and waiting for the soon coming of Christ to rapture us away from here! Our lives should be rapturous!
EK
There are times when God's people get out of the straight and narrow, and find them selves in the broad path that leads to destruction.
God said in Hosea, MY People are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Not eternally of course, but in a temporal manner.
EK
Has anyone noticed that that not a single reformed Calvinist has replied to this status? Why? It is because they know they have no consistent answer to the questions that have been posed. To answer would prove their doctrine false in their own eyes.
AW
I have asked the same question to a Pentecostal concerning Samson. The preacher responded that "Obviously Samson must have repented before he died otherwise he will be in hell."
EK
Being elect, not in accordance with works, whether good or evil means just that. God did not base His choice of His people according to what they do, or do not do. Simple fact.
However, those that violate the commands and precepts taught in the word of God will suffer chastening in the here and now.
Want to know what hell on earth is? It is what David experienced after he had Uriah the hittite murdered. He lost the joy of His salvation and begged God to not cast him away.
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. Psa 51:11-12
Sounds almost like, my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
JD
After being given THE COMMANDS of the Father, which Solomon also stated, and the specific sin for which to repent, the man went away sorrowful. Perhaps he repented. Though, I would dout it. He did not believe even the words of Jesus Himself, and if...
JD
I have no problem, with the term "God chose David" as the definition of the elect. That concept dovetails with David's obvious work of the flesh, which face it, in man's ways, all are guilty. Know I am. Nor, do I have a prolem, with the term, saved...
CP
It would be interesting on this thread to hear from Adrian Warnock in England who is a very prominent RB. Also, Tom Cabral, Lane Chaplin, and Brian Osisek! Maybe we can contact them!
CP
EK, seems that David believed strongly in Hell! The Hebrews believed in Hell but never mention the Lake of Fire or Heaven a lot! Jesus spoke of heaven a lot and of course Hell but never spoke a lot about the Lake of Fire. Paul spoke about being a cast-a-way quiet often and John mentions the Lake of Fire with incredible specifics! It is for the non-elect.
A reformed tweet i got this morning is from RB who believes Solomon is in Hell. Now that is the Lake of Fire for him! How preposterous can one be? Solomon did not persevere to the end with saving faith. Now the wisest man on earth who provided us with great wisdom literature and built a grand Temple was not elect!
His great accomplishments are not evidence of his election quiet the contrary. But he was the son of David and is in the heritage of the elect. There can be no question of his election and eternal justification.
Sing F Lau
What was the hell Jesus spoke about?
Why did Jesus warn His disciples solemnly against the HARSH reality of hell if none of them were ever in danger of finding themselves in hell? I do believe the teaching of Christ DO IMPLY the real danger and possibility of God's children finding themselves in hell between their death and their resurrection to eternal glory.
God's children will end up in eternal glory after resurrection. The eternal state of blessedness STARTS at resurrection, not at death. At death, a child of God enters a state that is still subject to CHANGE, a temporary state still subject to change. It is ONLY at resurrection God's children enter the CHANGELESS state of eternal blessedness.
EK
The teaching on the reality of hell to the disciples is necessary and spiritually healthy to understand what you have been saved from.
I went thru 3.5 years of daily torment as I experienced myself as a hell deserving sinner. I KNOW what I have been saved from, without doubt.
If there is no talk or warning of hell to the disciples, they would not discover their depravity, nor would they see their need for a Savior. Experiencing Hell on earth, discovering the inner darkness and depravity of the individual helps the disciple to work out his own salvation and to make his calling and election sure.
If The Lord did not talk to the disciples about hell, how can you know what you have been delivered from?
I believe Jesus PAID our sin debt in FULL on the cross and when He said it is finished, He meant it. If you or I or any other child of God has to suffer in hell after death, then Jesus did not finish the work The Father gave Him to do and that would make Him a liar. I'll have no part of it.
CP
EK, you are confusing Hell with the Lake of fire. [important point to note.]* Christ death secured our absolute deliverance from the Lake. You were saved from the Lake. Your obedience is your only salvation from the torture of Hades. The judgement for obedience goes deep to the innermost motives of the heart. Not just an outward external compliance but a childlike compliance! God's faith alone delivers us, the elect, from the Lake and our faith in Christ delivers us from the torture of Hell.
Sing F Lau
The teaching on the reality of hell to the disciples is necessary and spiritually healthy to understand what you have been saved from.
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How is it necessary when it has no relevance to the disciples, that is, no disciple would even end up in hell? Why warns the black boys that they will turn into white boys since such thing will never happen? The idea makes Jesus to be bluffing the disciples!
And if they had really been saved from hell, all the more pointless to warn them against the REAL DANGER of ending up there.
No, your sentence doesn't make sense.
SS
(IMHO) it's hard to prove an ever burning hell, with just the scriptures , for anyone but the devil and his angles.
EK
Do you understand what you have been saved from? I do. I have had a taste of it, and the experience led me to the foot of the cross.
EK
Again I say, Jesus paid my sin debt in full, nothing for me to pay after leaving my natural body.
Bro Sing, did Jesus pay our debt in full or not?
EK
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. Heb 12:11
Notice. no chastening for THE PRESENT (caps mine) seemeth to be joyous.....
We will suffer chastening for our disobedience in the PRESENT world. Very simple.
The nether world is simply a jail for souls of the non elect awaiting judgment.
EK
Ever heard the saying" having the hell scared out of you"? In my experience of grace I saw myself headed there. It did much to turn me towards Jesus on the cross. Very simple.
I would recommend reading up on experiences of grace. Many relate the same...See More
EK
Bro Scott.
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Matt 25:41
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20:15
Sing F Lau
Bro Sing, did Jesus pay our debt in full or not?
======
That's a very nice question. Thanks.
He most certainly did pay the debt of His elect in full, the wages of which is eternal separate from God, THAT IS, the lake of fire.
So, your rhetorical question resolves nothing! Jesus never warned His disciples against the lake of fire. His redemptive works SAVED them from the lake of fire.
It seems common sense, if Jesus Christ's paying the full debt FREES his people from hell, why would Jesus Christ so earnestly warn his very own disciples against the real danger of hell, unless that hell is fictional or is experienced here on earth???????
Sing F Lau
We will suffer chastening for our disobedience in the PRESENT world. Very simple.
======
How does the reality of suffering chastening for our disobedience in the present world necessarily exclude temporal punishment after death, but before resurrection to glory???
I would like to hear. Thanks.
Sing F Lau
Thank God we have been saved from Hell. Please stop putting God's people back in there.
======
May I conclude then that Jesus' earnest and solemn warnings against hell are just a joke? Jesus never warn His disciples the danger of going to the lake of fire.
I want to make sense of Christ's own words.
Nothing more than that.
EK
Bro, you obviously have not experienced hell on earth.
We can either enter into life by obedience, or hell by disobedience, here in time. Its not complicated.
Teaching that God's elect can go to hell logically concludes that Jesus DID NOT pay our sin debt in full and that HE DID NOT finish the work God sent Him to do.
Does Johnathan teach what you are advocating?
EK
I am done on this status with this conversation. If you want to continue, come to the Primitive Baptist group.
Sing F Lau
@ Bro, you obviously have not experienced hell on earth.
=====
You want me to tell you stories? I have plenty!
But I don't base my doctrine on my experiences.
I want to base it on the plain words of Christ. I know you want the same.
Sing F Lau
Keith @ Teaching that God's elect can go to hell logically concludes that Jesus DID NOT pay our sin debt in full and that HE DID NOT finish the work God sent Him to do.
======
Jesus DID pay the full sin debt of His people and delivered them from the lake of fire - which explains why Jesus NEVER warn them against the lake of fire.
Keith @ Does Johnathan teach what you are advocating?
Don't know. I quite doubt it. Does it matter?
EK
OK, apply Jesus warning to the here and now, not after this life.
Sing F Lau
@ OK, apply Jesus warning to the here and now, not after this life.
I would like to, but it simply DOES NOT fit!!!
EK
It does fit, and the implications of going your direction undermine Jesus' work of salvation.
PB Group to continue.
Sing F Lau
What I'm saying confirm and makes sense of Jesus' stern warning against hell to His disciples, as well as the fact that NONE of Christ's redeemed ends up in the lake of fire, but shall be resurrected unto eternal glory. Please prove that what I said undermines Jesus' work of salvation. If Jesus' work of salvation DID save His people from hell, then His stern and earnest of the danger of hell for them would have been a joke... and that's the implications of your settled conviction!
"PB Group to continue" - going to the amen gallery?
