 |
| And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: |
I wrote to a study group to inquire on a matter:
Date: Sunday, November 17, 2013 3:42 AM
Subject: first death, second death
Dear Brethren,
I may sound silly. Still, I need to ask...
What is the first death - death in Adam, or death at the end of life?
Now the second death - when does/did it happen to a man? judgment at death, or judgment on resurrection day?
Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Concerning Rev 20:6... the reigning with him a thousand years - is this BEFORE or AFTER the second death?
Thanks.
sing
===
Brother K responded:
Date: November 19, 2013 12:01:47 AM GMT+08:00
Brethren,
What bro Sing is driving at is that disobedient elect can go to literal hell upon death and await the resurrection and then enter into glory.
Jesus warnings about Hell to His disciples is one basis for his position. I believe these warnings (teaching about the reality of Hell) serve as a check against sin and foster a living appreciation of what we have actually been delivered from when the light of God shines within us revealing our depravity.
My thoughts are the he makes erroneous assumptions due to Rev 20 having the book life open.
Matthew 25, I believe, is the exhonoration of those on God's right hand, and the judgement of the goats on God's left hand.
The goats are cast into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
So, what I believe we are seeing in Rev 20, with the book life being opened is Matthew 25 viewed from the left hand of God to the center. No mention of the righteous here , only those that are cast into the lake of fire.
I will go on record that I believe Jesus paid our sin debt in full. Further His merit and sacrifice delivered us not only from the lake of fire, but literal hell also.
To teach that the elect can go to hell undermines the very essence of salvation, and denies that Jesus finished the work God sent Him to do.
Tremendous scriptural gymnastics (see below) are required to arrive at his position.
May The Lord Bless,
Brother K
I replied to the above:
Date: November 19, 2013 10:20:23 AM GMT+08:00
Brother K, and brethren,
Let me leave a few comments in your post. Your words in italic.
I wonder if should write, and waste my time... would any one read and give it careful consideration... and interact honestly.
What bro Sing is driving at is that disobedient elect can go to literal hell upon death and await the resurrection and then enter into glory.
Jesus warnings about Hell to His disciples is one basis for his position. I believe these warnings (teaching about the reality of Hell) serve as a check against sin and foster a living appreciation of what we have actually been delivered from when the light of God shines within us revealing our depravity.
Jesus warnings about Hell to His disciples is one basis for his position. I believe these warnings (teaching about the reality of Hell) serve as a check against sin and foster a living appreciation of what we have actually been delivered from when the light of God shines within us revealing our depravity.
## How does the teaching about the reality of hell serve as a check against sin if it is impossible for the redeemed to be touched by that real literal Hell?
My thoughts are the he makes erroneous assumptions due to Rev 20 having the book life open.
Matthew 25, I believe, is the exhonoration of those on God's right hand, and the judgement of the goats on God's left hand.
Matthew 25, I believe, is the exhonoration of those on God's right hand, and the judgement of the goats on God's left hand.
## I have been relooking at Mt 25... WITHOUT the coloured glasses given to me.
Been looking at the Mt 25:31ff again.
v32 "as a shepherd divideth HIS HIS HIS sheep from the goats." Both the goats and the sheep belong to the shepherd. So it makes more sense to differentiate the sheep and the goats as obedient and disobedient among the redeemed, rather than elect and non elect.
Next, it is clearly stated that the inheritance of the kingdom mentioned (v35... "for ye did this, this, this, this ...") is BASED on the works and merits of the sheep. That can't be the eternal glory after the resurrection... which is determined solely whether the names were written in the Lamb's book of life!
Then, we see obvious indication that the goats DO KNOW the Lord who judges them... see v44. They are obviously people who were DESIROUS to minister to the Lord. Perhaps these are celebrity believers, the rich and haughty believers... [They most probably represent God's children among the Jews who failed to recognize Jesus was the very Messiah they were waiting for.]
Finally, verse 41 "ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." This can't possibly be the final lake of fire. Rev 20:10 "And the devil... was cast into the lake of fire." Where was the devil before he was cast into the late of fire on the great judgment day? Hell... everlasting fire... UNTIL delivered up on the resurrection day to be cast into the lake of fire.
Hell is between death and resurrection; lake of fire is after resurrection on judgment day. This is plain and obvious.
The goats are cast into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
## READ again the last comment above... [everlasting fire is not their final destiny. On judgment day, the devil and his angels are cast into the lake of fire, together with those ONLY whose names are not written in the book of life.]
Most are SO SETTLED in their beliefs that it is VERY HARD for them to rethink... may be because of HERD mentality, and needing to conform to the group.
Think again. I now believe Mt 24-25 is on one subject only... the end of the Jewish world, with the judgment with it. At the end of the Jewish world there was a great judgment, and at the end of the human world, there is also a great judgment. Mt 25 speaks of the former, and Rev 20 speaks of the latter! That makes sense to me. May sound stupid to all, but beginning to make lots of sense to me.
The goats in Mt 25 hardly represents the non-elect. They give clear indication they know the Lord, and were desirous to serve him... BUT failed badly. Perhaps like the rich man with respect to Lazarus!
So, what I believe we are seeing in Rev 20, with the book life being opened is Matthew 25 viewed from the left hand of God to the center. No mention of the righteous here , only those that are cast into the lake of fire.
## So what I believe is that Mt 25 deals with the judgment at the end of the JEWISH world, and Rev 20 deal with the end of the HUMAN world. The distinction in Mt 25 is the faithful and unfaithful among the redeemed [among the Jews... the goats being those redeemed who did not receive Christ as the Messiah!]. The distinction in Rev 20 is between those whose names were written in the book of life, and those who were not. [That's why books were opened!]
I will go on record that I believe Jesus paid our sin debt in full. Further His merit and sacrifice delivered us not only from the lake of fire, but literal hell also.
## I will also go on record that Jesus Christ paid the sin debt of all those whose names were written in the book of life, I included. And that GUARANTEES our deliverance from the eternal lake of fire. Christ redemptive works delivered His people from the like of fire... which explains why there was NEVER a single warning against the lake of fire addressed to the redeemed.
I also put on record that the Lord's solemn and repeated warning against hell to His redeemed people can so easily be repudiated, nullified, and made of none effect by the same!
To teach that the elect can go to hell undermines the very essence of salvation, and denies that Jesus finished the work God sent Him to do.
## To teach that the redeemed may go to hell affirmed Christ's solemn and constant warnings to the redeemed against the fearsome reality of hell. Otherwise we make mockery of Christ's solemn words. To affirm that the redemptive work of Jesus Christ secured deliverance from the lake of fire correctly upholds the very essence of the eternal redemption. Hell is a temporal place between death and resurrection. Lake of fire is for eternity after resurrection.
Tremendous scriptural gymnastics (see below) are required to arrive at his position.
## I still swing from branches to branches on my mangoes trees (30-40 ft high) ... and I'm agile still to read and learn the Scriptures. Old stiff minds stay happy where they are no matter what!
Thank you, Elder K for this opportunity to study the Scriptures.
May The Lord Bless,
Elder K
## Always feel very blessed when digging in the Lord's treasure mine!!
Our Lord bless you, Elder.
swinging in the mango trees.
Date: November 19, 2013 10:53:48 AM GMT+08:00
Bro Sing,
I am done. There will be no re- hashing of this subject by me. We have been over it time and again.
The things I wrote today, I wrote to warn the brethren what you were up to.
We will have to agree to disagree.
Elder K
I replied:
Date: November 19, 2013 11:17:29 AM GMT+08:00
Brother K,
I am all for the free inquiry of the truth.
You can oppose all you want, and I SINCERELY thank you for it...
BECAUSE that will only drive all of God's children CLOSER towards the truth!
You have arrived, and are comfortably settled.
I have not, and am still studying and inquiring.
Give me CREDIBLE rebuttal next time.
Don't rehash the same thing. That doesn't make you a good soldier.
See! I still have a great capacity to laugh while we fight for the truth.
RELAX, brother! RELAX!
Your friend in the far east!!!
sing
Brother K responded:
Date: November 19, 2013 11:57:34 AM GMT+08:00
Sorry bro Sing.
I find the truth no laughing matter.
Further, I am, as you are, in that I trust I learn something every day (if not deceived), and I have not arrived and am never comfortably settled to know all truth.
You have been given ample credible rebuttal in another forum. We will not change each other’s position at this time. In the mean time I will continue to study the scripture always trying the spirits, whether they be of God. In this case, the spirit of the teaching you are setting forth does not pass the test.
You are welcome to it, but I'll have none of it, and will warn the brethren every time you come near with it.
May The Lord guide you into all truth.
I replied:
Date: November 19, 2013 12:23:24 PM GMT+08:00
Brother K,
You do look very sorry, :-)
The total sum of your rebuttal on another forum has been FULLY presented here already.
If you have any more, bring them forth, and we can study together in the light of Scriptures...
in this "amen gallery" - your home ground!!! I'm aware that I'm in a lions' den!
But this lions' den is a mighty good place to maul and slay errors, and revive truth... because the lions here are mighty and sharp!
May the Lord guide you into some truth you have overlooked!
sing
