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| And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.... But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. |
This is the first resurrection
What is the first resurrection?
Date: Sunday, November 17, 2013 3:42 AM
Subject: first death, second death
Dear Brethren,
I may sound silly. Still, I need to ask...
What is the first death - death in Adam, or death at the end of life?
Now the second death - when does/did it happen to a man? judgment at death, or judgment on resurrection day?
Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Concerning Rev 20:6... the reigning with him a thousand years - is this BEFORE or AFTER the second death?
Thanks.
sing
Brother Meik responded:
Date: November 17, 2013 9:04:10 PM GMT+08:00
Sing,
I think the answer is found in John 5:25 compared with 5:28. Regeneration is here referred to as a resurrection from death in sin. The second resurrection is that of the body in verse 28. Those who have part in this first resurrection are delivered from the second death. On the other hand, those who remain dead in sin, even though their bodies will be raised, will ultimately suffer an eternal second death, much as the burning bush was being destroyed yet not consumed. II Thes. 1:8-9
Some brief thoughts, Bro. Meik
I replied:
Date: November 18, 2013 9:26:44 AM GMT+08:00
Brother Meik,
Thank you very much.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Both verses 25 and 28 are qualified by "the hour is coming" - so I think it is a bit ARBITRARY to say that they refer to events separated by the "1000 years" between the two. How would you explain that?
[It seems plain and simple that both are speaking of the same thing...]
Verse 28 reminds me of Mt 27
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
And this: Rev 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
I'm beginning to think that "the rest of the dead" here refers to the dead of God's children who were not resurrected in that FIRST RESURRECTION spoken of in Mt 27.
Tell me what you think. I need sharp sounding boards to aid me to think.
Amen gallery has no use to me!
Meik wrote:
Date: November 18, 2013 10:44:04 AM GMT+08:00
Sing,
I don't think there is 1,000 literal years anywhere, either in John or in the Revelation. The Revelation is a book largely of signs and symbols as indicated in the first chapter by the word "signified."
John 5:25 mentions that the hour is coming and now is….the sense in which the dead are now hearing the voice of the Son of God, and thereby living, is regeneration, not the resurrection of the body. Verse 28 refers to the resurrection of the body.
The second death has no power over those who have part in this first resurrection (regeneration) mentioned in John's didactic writings. Bro. Meik
I replied:
Date: November 18, 2013 12:00:58 PM GMT+08:00
Meik,
You are DISTRACTED.... I did put 1000 years within "1000 years."
1000 years is that DEFINITE long period between the two comings of the Lord Jesus Christ.
[At the very beginning of that "1000 years" some dead saints were resurrected TOGETHER with Christ, and they LIVED and REIGNED with Christ a "1000 years."]
But regeneration has been happening ever since the beginning of the world.
Many people believe there was no regeneration before Christ resurrection.
So, the resurrection which is thousands of years ahead is ALSO something within the SAME time frame of "the hour is coming"???????????????? Really? Hmmm.
What's your comment on verse 28? It reminds me of Mt 27
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. [These dead saints were resurrected TOGETHER after with Christ, and they LIVED and REIGNED with Christ a "1000 years."]
Was that a real resurrection, or a figurative resurrection? Honest question - no hook inside!
Thanks for being a sounding board. sing
Meik responded:
Date: November 19, 2013 3:51:43 AM GMT+08:00
Sing,
The language of John 5:25 does not exclude the fact that OT saints were born again. If it does, it would also exclude your interpretation, because some were raised from the dead before Matt. 27
Bro. Meik
I replied:
Date: November 19, 2013 10:29:52 AM GMT+08:00
Meik,
John 5:25 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."
If this statement is understood as regeneration, and the time frame stated is "the hour is coming, and now is" then the time frame limits what is spoken to the present at the time of speaking. It excludes the past. You decide whether it excludes regeneration prior to this.
I understand this verse as literal resurrection... which is recorded in Mt 27:51-53.
So how does it exclude my interpretation?
I'm puzzled. sing
Meik responded:
Date: Nov 19, 2013, at 10:58 PM,
Sing,Date: Nov 19, 2013, at 10:58 PM,
If you say it excludes the past, and if that is true, then it cannot be a bodily resurrection either, because others were raised from the dead prior to the event in Matt. 27. DM
I replied:
Date: Tuesday, November 19, 2013 3:10 PM
Meik,
Please show us another resurrection prior to that first resurrection recorded in Mt 27:51-53. Thank you very much. "... many bodies of the saints which slept arose."
sing
Meik responded:
Date: November 19, 2013 11:18:38
Sing,
Since I only need one example to prove the point, what about Lazarus in John 11:44
DM
I replied:
Date: November 19, 2013 11:33:24 PM GMT+08:00
Meik,
Yes, you have wonderfully proven your point.
I would still take what is recorded in Mt 27:51-53 as the first resurrection.
There wasn't any like that before... But if you think Lazarus fits the description, then it fits for you!
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Why is it so hard to concede that John 5:25,28 cannot be speaking of regeneration, when the implication is SO PLAIN!
[These two verses speak in the PLURAL - John 5:25 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."]
sing
Meik responded:
On Nov 20, 2013, at 12:27 AM,
Sing,
Regeneration fits the context very well. Not only is regeneration spoken of as a resurrection in other Scriptures, but verse 25 obviously extends the thought of passing from death to life from the end of verse 24.
Also, verse 25 makes no reference to bodies or to the graves as does verse 28. Not only does the Lord have power to raise from death in sin, but the passage goes on to tell that he has power and authority to raise the bodies from the graves at the final judgment day (verse 27-28).
I replied:
November 20, 2013 9:36:18 AM GMT+08:00
Brother Meik,
The time frame "the hour is coming" points to something imminent if words still have meaning,
something coming to pass imminently. So I will take both John 5:25,28 as speaking of literal rising from the dead... [which took place shortly after in Mt 27:51-53.]
John 5:25 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."
If speaking of regeneration, those words necessarily imply there were no regeneration before.
Words have meanings, and their implications.
Thanks. sing.
Brother Smithy joined in:
On Nov 20, 2013, at 1:14 AM
Dear Brother Sing,On Nov 20, 2013, at 1:14 AM
Your statement - "If John 5:25 is understood as regeneration, and the time frame stated is "the hour is coming, and now is’ then the time frame limits what is spoken of the present at the time of speaking. It excludes the past.” - seems non-sequitur to me. After all, if I say, “the sun will rise every day until the Lord returns, and it rises today” I do not exclude the fact that it rose yesterday.
At the resurrection, Matthew and Mark record that women at the tomb of Jesus Christ met one angel. Luke and John record that two angels were seen. Stating that they saw one angel does not preclude them seeing two.
I do believe that regeneration has been taking place at least as early as the time of Abel, and do not think John 5:25 contradicts that, even though I think the Lord is referring to regeneration in that verse. Love, Smithy
I responded;
Tuesday, November 19, 2013 8:41 PM
Brother Smithy
Thanks for your thought... You ride a nice scooter!
Your illustration about the sun would require "the hour is coming, and has been..."
Thank you. sing
Smithy wrote:
On Nov 20, 2013, at 9:47 AM,
Dear Brother Sing,
No, I could say it just as I wrote below, describing the future and present state with no reference to the past, without excluding the veracity of the past sunrises – I merely did not mention them. And I think this is just what the Lord Jesus did in John 5:25.
Furthermore, since regeneration is an ongoing event, the Lord could say, “the hour is coming” and mean future events in the next hour, and also future events in subsequent hours for thousands of years, and still be accurate in His statement. Love, Smithy
I replied:
November 20, 2013 1:12:30 PM GMT+08:00
Dear brother Smithy,November 20, 2013 1:12:30 PM GMT+08:00
Here are some passages where the phrase 'the hour is..." occurs:
Mt 26:45 Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
Mr 14:41 And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
Joh 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
Joh 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
Re 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
I believe the phrase uniformly indicates something imminent... something "which should shortly be", with no reference to the past, and no reference to something few thousands years ahead.
Thanks, I rest my case. As always, PBs may still be right on this point.
You and I are disagreed here. Small matter since we are in agreement on many other points!
Love you! I always appreciate a good sounding board. sing
