Justification of life precedes Regeneration to life

The parasite has killed the whole plant!
All the leaves are those of the parasite!
That's how erroneous doctrines suck the life out of God's children!

Therefore as by the offence of one 
judgment came upon all men 
to condemnation [of death]; 
even so 
by the righteousness of one
 the free gift came upon all men
 unto justification of life.
Rom 5:18

Sins bring condemnation of death.

Righteousness is prerequisite for justification of life.

No righteousness, no justification; 

no justification, no right to life!

Christ alone secured the needed righteousness for His people. God freely applies that righteousness to each of Christ's people when they were dead in trespasses and sins, i.e. God justifies the ungodly, applying Christ righteousness to them personally. And the Holy Spirit regenerates those whom God has applied the righteousness of Christ unto justification of life!

Culligan
‎"Imputation has to do with justification which is eternal and which is wholly external to man. The imputation of Christ's righteousness is forensic only and does not empower. Justification was accomplished by the shed blood of Christ. Regeneration is not required for justification.

“He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.”~ M.C.
(Romans 4:25 NAS95)

Sing F Lau
Justification was purposed by God for all the elect before the foundation of the world.

Justification was accomplished by Christ at the cross for all the elect. This is justification by the blood of Christ, by the faith OF Christ - the basis and the ground of justification.

Justification is applied by the Holy Spirit to each elect personally at effectual calling out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation. What is legal is now made personal. This is justification by the free grace of God - how righteousness is applied to an elect personally, freely by God.

Justification is experienced through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. What is personal is now experienced, and manifested. This is the practical experience, and evidence of the justified state by God's free grace based on the righteousness of Christ.

Justification finally vindicated at resurrection.

Those are the five distinct aspects of the biblical doctrine of justification.

Culligan
Thank you Sing F Lau!

Sing F Lau
These distinctions were common with the old school theology... plainly stated in the classic confessions... all lost and unknown to the new school theology...

All they know is the heretical 'sola fidei' - legal justification through man's act of believing!

Culligan
Interestingly, I was looking at the Ordo Salutis off of a Reformed website and they had it as
1) Election
2) Predestination
3) Gospel Call
4) Inward Call
5) Regeneration
6) Conversion (Faith and Repentance)
7) Justification
8) Sanctification
9) Glorification

But I would have thought that Justification came after Predestination or at least before Regeneration. What do you think Sing F Lau?

Sing F Lau
Justification by faith alone (i.e. faith as man's act of believing) is the GREATEST LIE foisted upon Christianity! It is a devil's lie.

Faith is an effect and fruit of justification by God's free grace based on the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

An unjustified man is a man STILL under the condemnation of sin and death. Such a man can't possibly believe at all. It is only a justified man, i.e. a man to whom God has APPLIED the righteousness of Christ personally (thus giving the Holy Spirit the divine warrant to regenerate the justified... and making believing possible!, who is regenerated, and thus enabled to believe.

A fruit and effect of justification CANNOT be the instrumental means to secure the same justification.

The Mother of Harlots believes that a sinner's justification before God is by BOTH faith and works.

Her daughters believe that a sinner's justification before God is by faith ALONE.

Bible declares that a sinner's justification before God is by the application of Christ's righteousness alone to an elect personally, freely by Gods grace alone; therefore neither faith nor works.

The act of believing is the EFFECT of the justification of life, thus evidences the justified state..

Sing F Lau
Take a careful look here, and tell me what you think. I was brought up in the ordo salutis of the reformed. But it is really DEFORMED disorder... I am glad you are seeing it...
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2011/05/order-of-salvation.html
The Order of Salvation

God bless you, brother.

Culligan
Awesome, Thank you!

Sing F Lau
Look at this too:
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2010/10/justification-by-grace-received-by.html

Justification by faith alone is really a doctrine of the devil.
Justification by God's free grace based on the righteousness of Christ is experienced by faith alone is a doctrine of the Bible.

Biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology.

Huberty
Good distinction Sing F Lau. That is far too often over looked by many who too hastily react to varied forms of works doctrines with "faith alone". Paul makes it perfectly clear: "By grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God lest any should boast." By the grace of God, many are being saved through grace; none have ever been saved by grace.

Huberty
Whoops! Correction. none have ever been saved by faith. Hate it when I do that.

Sing F Lau ‎
"By grace are you saved through faith..."
May I ask, whose faith, and what is that faith?

See here:Saved by grace through faith – whose faith?
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2008/01/saved-by-grace-through-faith-whose.html

Sing F Lau ‎
Culligan @ But I would have thought that Justification came after Predestination or at least before Regeneration. What do you think?
===========
Scriptures and common sense tell us that justification must be before regeneration.
Sin earns condemnation and death.
Righteousness is prerequisite for justification and life.
No righteousness, no life.

Justification is legal imputation, and personal application of Christ's righteousness to those in the condemnation of death. [Legal imputation took place when Christ died at the cross; personal application takes place at effectual calling out of the native state of sin and trespasses and sin to that of grace and salvation.]

Regeneration is the begetting of eternal life in those under the condemnation of death based on the righteousness of Christ that has been applied. [Application of righteousness must precede the regeneration to life!]

Romans 5:18 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

And the righteousness needed is provided by God through the faith OF OF OF Christ... not through faith IN IN IN Christ.

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

The legal imputation of righteousness (happened to all the elect at the cross) and the personal application of righteousness to each elect at effectual call gives DIVINE warrant for the Holy Spirit to regenerate that elect.

Justification must precede regeneration! Life is the effect, and evidence of a justified state.

It is the just (the justified ones) that shall live by faith...

New school calvinists think the unjustified are regenerated... i.e those under the condemnation of death is at the same time regenerated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How nonsensical!

And they believe that the unjustified (under the condemnation of death) can believe in order to be justified! What madness!!!!!

Huberty
I think I agree and disagree, Sing. In an a chronological sense, I would say they occur simultaneously. We know at least that our names have been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world and the Lamb was slain from... the foundation of the world. In a logical sense I think it could be argued either way. "Why would God regenerate the unjustified?" is a good question. On the other hand, we are justified by grace through faith and "How could a person exercise faith before being regenerated?" is another good question. Perhaps it is the difference between accomplished and applied.
[ "...before the foundation of the world" qualifies the writing of the names in the book of life! It answers, "when were the names written?"  The "lamb slain" qualifies the book of life! Which book? The book of life of the Lamb slain. Common and popular notion. sing]

Huberty
Yes it is. Traditionally it has been thought the faith given the believer by God as a gift. Some neo-Calvinist would argue it is the faith of Christ. I have a couple of problems with the latter: Taking the biblical definition of faith as the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen, I'm not sure how that would apply to the Son. As God, what things are not seen by Him. Secondly, I can't reconcile it being the faith of Christ with faith is the gift of God ( Eph. 2:9)

Sing F Lau
Chronologically: righteousness APPLIED, regeneration, adoption and the gift of the Spirit of adoption happen simultaneously in the effectual calling out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation.

To bring an elect from ...his native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation, all these activities of the Triune God by His free and sovereign grace must occur: righteousness APPLIED, regeneration, adoption and the gift of the Spirit of adoption... in that number and logical order.

These activities of God MAKE hearing and believing the gospel possible when there is the ministry of the gospel.

'Justified by grace through faith' is a common expression. A good question is: by whose faith?

Faith is a grace worked in the heart of a child of God - righteousness APPLIED, regeneration, adoption and the gift of the Spirit of adoption - that enables him to believe the gospel of Christ. The grace of faith is a FRUIT and effect of justification applied... so the 'faith' in the popular statement 'Justified by grace through faith' CANNOT possibly refer to the grace of faith worked in the heart of a child of God.

It must refer to something else... even the basis of justification by grace.

Huberty
I don't agree with the expression "Justified by grace through faith". It is common, yes, but I think not biblical. The biblical expression is "saved by grace through faith". We are not justified by grace or faith. Specifically, we are justified by the finished work of Christ. By the grace of God we have such a work done on our behalf, true enough, but it is the work and not the grace by which we have the work of Christ that justifies. Have to run to work, my friend. I really appreciate your posts, the discussion and the godly way in which you present yourself. I just last evening when preaching touched on the problem of the current tendency for believers to appear as though they are more interested in being quarrelsome than helpful to one another.

I really appreciate your spirit, brother. So good to have these discussions and re-examine our beliefs to be sure they are in line with Scripture.

Sing F Lau
Huberty @ "Secondly, I can't reconcile it being the faith of Christ with faith is the gift of God ( Eph. 2:9)"

Then take a look here to help solve your problem...
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2008/01/saved-by-grace-through-faith-whose.html

Thanks for the discussion.

Twisting and Perverting by Adding!

How a precious Scriptures is twisted and perverted by additions!

How easy it is to contaminate the word of God by adding to it!
Didn't the Lord warn us not to add to His Scriptures?
Read Rev 22:18!

Rom 8:29-30
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Sadly, this glorious passage is so often understood as though it says this - note all the additions that involve human actions and responses.

For example, an intelligent and informed reformed man boldly asserted: [verbatim]
-- All the historic reformed believe that regeneration precedes faith. The ordo salutis is 1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30) --

So all the historic reformed [or rather the DEFORMED!] have cut the divine chain and add other links (with some minor variations) to the divine chain, thus making the passage to say this:
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, to them he also send the gospel preacher:
and to whom he sent the gospel preacher, them he also inwardly call:
and whom he inwardly call, them he also regenerated:
and whom he regenerated, them he also effectually called to faith:
and whom he effectually called to faith, they also believed and repented:
and they who believed and repented, them he also justified:
and whom he justified, them he also adopted:
and whom he adopted, them he also sanctified:
and whom he sanctified, they also persevered in faith and holiness of life:
and they who persevered in faith and holiness of life, them he also glorified."


That's how they (i.e. "all the historic reformed") have contaminated the pure word of God!!!

Some observations:
The passage in its pristine state, undefiled by human additions, applies to every elect without exception, from the elect infants who die in infancy to the greatest saints one wish to name, all the rest in between; from the elect in the remotest corner of the world to the elect in the 'reformed' bastion of the world, Grand Rapids.   With the human additions the passage no longer applies to every one predestinated unto eternal glory. It can only be true of some elect.

 This is a serious, as well as grievous error. The reasons...

1. The chief problem is mixing the two distinct aspects of salvation together: the eternal salvation by divine activities alone, and the temporal salvation [i.e pertaining to this present life alone] through human activities in response to the divine grace already worked in them.
- The objective divine aspect is wholly monergistic and is divinely applied to each and every elect in exactly the same and precise manner, without any human aid or instrumentality.
- Each elect is equally effectually called to grace and salvation, i.e. justified by God, regenerated by the Spirit, and adopted as sons of God. There is no exception in any sense at all.

However, the gospel blessings and benefits, quantitatively and qualitatively, that a regenerated elect (a child of God) may enjoy in this brief life is dependent upon many human factors. Some enjoy none... others to a greatly varying measures, depending on such factors as the purity of the gospel preached to them, availability of the various means of grace, the quality of the ministry of the word, the quality of pastoral oversight and care, etc, etc.

Only those who have been eternally saved IS CAPABLE OF BEING SAVED in the temporal sense... of benefiting from the means of grace.

I hope you begin to see a vast and distinct difference between eternal salvation which is wholly God's work, and the temporal salvation which is dependent upon the responses of those who ARE ALREADY SAVED to the means of grace that they may be saved in the here and now.

Eternal salvation is purely and solely by the effectual calling of God unto eternal salvation. Gospel ministry is to inform and announce the good news of that eternal salvation which God Himself has purposed, Christ Himself has accomplished and the Holy Spirit Himself has applied to the elect personally and individually at God's approved and appointed time. The gospel ministry is UTTER foolishness to all except those to whom the eternal salvation has been applied by the Holy Spirit.

The subjective or experiential aspect is wholly synergistic and is applied to some of the elect, and those to whom it is applied, experience through human means and instrumentality.Rom 8:29-30 deals solely and purely with eternal salvation by the saving activities of God... He brings those under the condemnation of death to that justification and eternal life, making them fit for eternal glory!!! Anything that involves human activities deals with the temporal salvation of God's children.

If you wish to read a biblical order of salvation, please read this article here:
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2011/05/order-of-salvation.html

'Arminians are not Christians'!

"These ruralites are so primitive,
therefore they can't be truly human,"
insisted the haughty urbanites.

'Arminians are not Christians!'

You will hear that asserted often from some 'reformed' pulpits!

They complain, and insinuate like this, "there are some less enlightened pastors who explain to their congregations that those pesky Arminians are Christians but just a little ignorant and confused, and just need better instruction in the doctrines of grace. Such are actually saying that God does a really lousy job of saving those Arminians. But when God saves, He saves completely, producing staunch and sound Calvinists like us! Our almighty and sovereign Lord won't do anything less. Anything less can't be God's work." And their congregations consent with loud "amen"!

'Arminians are not Christians???'

The answer to that injurious and blasphemous notion is quite simple: these 'reformed' people are ignorant (oh how could these elitist folks be ignorant of anything?) of the distinction between eternal salvation administered by God's free and sovereign grace, and temporal salvation through the gospel ministry administered by God-sent men.

When God saves, He saves to the uttermost, always complete and perfect every time... from predestination all the way unto glorification, never misses one beat on any elect. And He does not need any help from anyone whatsoever, reformed elitists included.

God saves by turning condemned dead sinners into justified regenerated children of God... all equally, and perfectly fitted for eternal glory... and all by His own free grace, based on the same finished work of Jesus Christ. That's eternal salvation. In this there is no variation or deficiency at all; it is always complete and perfect. All are equally saved in every sense of the word. That deals with the BEING of God's children.

God appoints the gospel ministry for the instruction and conversion of His children to the truth of their salvation by His free and sovereign grace in Christ Jesus. This deals with the WELL BEING of God's children. The well-being of God's children is through the gospel ministry, and a whole host of different human factors are involved in the gospel ministry.

God's children are at different stages of conversion through the gospel ministry... but they are perfectly and equally God's children by the free and sovereign grace of God.

Apostle Paul called the believers in Corinth SAINTS... as well as those in the church in Thessalonica. Look at the saints in the seven churches in the Book of Revelation.

There is a vast degree of practical sanctification in the children of God through the gospel ministry... EVEN THOUGH all of them are equally and definitively sanctified from their state of condemnation and death unto that state of justification and eternal life.

Some elite Americans think this way: ONLY the Americans who have gone through Ivy League schools and achieved the American Dream are true Americans! The rest are not even Americans! That's the mentality of many 'reformed' folks towards God's children who haven't attained their standard of doctrinal correctness concerning salvation!

(Actually, the reformed folks are quite messed in a whole host of things too! - but they are too high-minded to notice or acknowledge it!)

Oh if only these sincere 'reformed' folks are aware of the 'deformity' of some of their own doctrines!

A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology.

===========

Sing F Lau
Such 'reformed' folks have no fear of God... mocking, insinuating and accusing God of a lousy work of redemption while the real problem is their own ignorance of the truth.

Romans 8
29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

There is absolute completeness and perfection, with no variation in the slightest degree. The Triune God ALONE, without any instrumentality purposed, accomplished, and apply this ETERNAL salvation for the elect.

Phi 2
12 ¶ Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

There is great variation here. The degree of salvation attained and experienced is dependent upon the degree of obedience to work out one's own salvation with fear and trembling, as God works in them to will and to do His good pleasure. There will be great variation here.

Alan Lloyd
So what are you trying to say? who is and who isn't a christian?

Sing F Lau
I am saying, "many 'reformed' folks say that the Arminians whom they despise are not Christian."

What do you think I am trying to say to that? <LOL>

Sing F Lau
"Reformed pastors who explain to their congregations that those who are Arminians are still Christians, just a little mixed up and confused, and just need better instruction in the Doctrines of Grace, are actually saying that God does a really lousy job in saving some... But does just a great and stupendous job of saving them!"
==========

The perverse mocking, '... that God does a really lousy job in saving some' is a betrayal of a preconceived idea which is completely contrary to biblical facts.

The preconceived idea: that the salvation that was purposed, accomplished for, and applied to the elect by the free and sovereign grace of God INCLUDES the same degree of conversion to the truth of the gospel of Christ.

Based on that erroneous and presumptuous notion, they conclude that since Arminians are not as converted to the truth of grace, therefore they are not Christians, still under condemnation and lost in their sins.

Anyone who has read the Bible at all can see that that notion simply does not match the realities recorded in the Scriptures concerning God's people, both in the OT as well as in the NT. Just read the SAINTS Paul was addressing in the various epistles, especially Galatians and Hebrews.

Josiah Lau
Dad is there a difference between a 'Christian' and a 'child of God'... I would say that a 'Christian' is a label, for one who confesses Christ as Redeemer and Saviour. Who is a child of God, however, is not dependent on a profession of faith, it is by God's work of eternal salvation. So perhaps there is a difference between 'Arminians are not children of God' and 'Arminians are not Christians'?

Of course by 'Christian' these pastors could mean 'children of God', which means they conflate the Christian's believing in God and his/her subsequent profession of faith with the eternal salvation of God.

Another question is, Is there a meaningful distinction to draw between a Christian and a child of God in discussion of salvation?

Alan Lloyd
Oh no, it's only Presbyterians that think that and the like.

Sing F Lau
Josiah Lau, you have made a careful and needful distinction between a Christian and a child of God. But many 'reformed' people are unable and don't make that distinction at all. This is because they, near 100% of them believe in gospel regeneration - i.e. regeneration and believing the gospel are always joined together... a sinner dead in sin is regenerated by the Holy Spirit when he hears and believes the gospel, therefore a child of God is always a Christian as well. To them, there is simply no such thing as a child of God who is not a Christian as well.

You are ahead of many reformed theologians when you say that 'who a child of God is ... is not dependent on the profession of faith.' The profession of faith evidences one's sonship by the PRIOR activity of God's free and sovereign grace.

'Of course by 'Christian' these pastors could mean 'children of God', which means they conflate the Christian's believing in God and his/her subsequent profession of faith with the eternal salvation of God' - That is the ONLY WAY very many reformed people understand things!

There is a very important distinction between a Christian and a child of God... it is precisely because reformed people are so loose in their thinking that they equate the two.

Divine regeneration ALONE brings about a child of God: God through His free and sovereign activity of regeneration turns a condemned dead sinner into a justified living child of God.

The gospel ministry turns a child of God who believes in the gospel of Christ into a Christian. The conversion of a child of God to the gospel of Jesus Christ produces a Christian.

I am glad you are thinking about these matters.

Arminians are people to embrace defective and erroneous gospel doctrines. They are close cousins of the Calvinists who despise them!

Sing F Lau
Another question is, Is there a meaningful distinction to draw between a Christian and a child of God in a discussion of salvation?
=========

Great question!

One must be an elect first... if he ever going to be regenerated and become a child of God. Regeneration is the sole prerogative of God's free and sovereign activity.

A child of God must be reached with the gospel of Jesus Christ if he is ever going to be converted to the truth of his salvation by the free and sovereign grace of Jesus Christ. Understood this way, there are children of God who are NOT converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ at all. Cornelius was already a child of God long before he was converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Those multitudes of DEVOUT Jews who came to Jerusalem to observe the Pentecost were already God's children... but unto that day were not converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ yet. Those who profess faith in the Lord Jesus Christ publicly through water baptism are called Christians.

And among the Christians, those who own and bear the name of Christ through water baptism, there are good disciples, there are poor disciples and there are bad disciples. See the parable of the sower, Mt 13.

So each term - elect, child of God, Christian, and disciple has its specific meaning. Sadly, many don't see any difference.

Sing F Lau
This verse shows me there are even those that could be a child of God within RCC. Let the Lord have mercy upon whom He will have mercy. His blood, not ours to justify His Saints!
=========
I say there are God's children among the Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, communists, liberals, etc... They need to be converted to the truth of their salvation in Jesus Christ by God's free grace!

(Some idiots will AGAIN conclude from my words that Pastor Lau believes the Muslims are God's children too! They have done it before. But I say no such thing. Haven't they heard of the many Muslims converted to Christ?)

Sing F Lau
Oh no, it's only Presbyterians that think that and the like.
========
Many RBs do the same... they write the Arminians off the same way!

Cheri Thomas
Paul wrote:
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Now does anyone really believe that Paul was speaking of eternal salvation here? Or was he addressing a temporal salvation from doctrinal error? Of course, there are elect children of God who are in intellectual darkness, which can be likened to grave clothes. When Lazarus came forth, he was ALIVE. Jesus commanded his disciples to 'Loose him, and let him go.' Loose him from what?

What are God's ministers to loose newly regenerated children (aka, CHRISTIANS), from?

PJ Walters
"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes." Romans 11:28

Many folks (including many in false religions!), concerning the gospel, are enemies to us! But according to the election, they are beloved because of God!

MarkandAnna Cattemull
OK then, but don't forget to include the Russellites, Mormons, SDA's, Christian Science and the RC's.

Sing F Lau
Why, OF COURSE, there are God's children among them, despite your cynicism.
That's why there are Christian converts from such backgrounds! But you don't believe such a thing, do you? I baptized a convert from the RC recently...and there are converts from Islam in militantly Islamic states! And there are converts in places completely sold to voodooism.

MarkandAnna Cattemull
I'm just following your logic. If people can be regenerate and yet fight against the Gospel, as Arminians do, and yet be your brothers in Christ, then why stop with just Arminians? Russellites, Mormons, SDA's and the RC also fight against the Gospel. Why don't you include them as your regenerated brothers in Christ also?

Sing F Lau
It is revelation if you have an eye to see. Some passages have been quoted above... but obviously, you don't believe them. So much for 'Scriptures alone'!

Your sarcastic rhetorical question misses the point... and discloses your obtuseness.

I can only recognize who my brothers are when such regenerate (i.e. children of God) are brought to faith in Jesus Christ through the gospel ministry.

If I understand you correctly, you believe there are no children of God among such... until the gospel preaching is blessed to make children for God. It's ok... you are in good company of a great multitude of gospel regenerationists!

Mark Thomas
Poor impotent god. Needs those gospel ministers to be the surrogate father to his children. Can't get the job done by himself. I am sure thankful that is not my GOD.

Ps 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

PJ Walters
They pray to a god that cannot save them! They say, "Oh, it is not that he cannot; it is that he will not." Poor souls! They have gone from praying to a god who cannot save to a god who WILL NOT save!

MarkandAnna Cattemull
Sing said, "I can only recognize who my brothers are when such regenerate (i.e. children of God) are brought to faith in Jesus Christ through the gospel ministry." Exactly! And UNTIL THEN you are in error to say they are your regenerate brethren.

Sing said, "That's why there are Christian converts from such backgrounds!" I absolutely agree... FROM such backgrounds! The keyword there is FROM. Your initial argument was that souls IN Arminians are regenerated! There's a huge difference between a soul in an Arminian and one saved FROM it. You say, "I baptized a convert from the RC recently...and there are converts from Islam in militantly Islamic states! And there are converts in places completely sold to voodooism." I'm glad you baptised a convert FROM the RC, I hope you can baptise more! And yes, there are indeed "converts FROM Islam, and FROM voodoo! There are elect souls in Arminianism, and every other "ism", who will be converted FROM such! If that's now your meaning, then I agree with you.

Sing F Lau
Sing said, "I can only recognize who my brothers are when such regenerate (i.e. children of God) are brought to faith in Jesus Christ through the gospel ministry."

Cattle retorted: Exactly! And UNTIL THEN you are in error to say they are your regenerate brethren.

==========

You are confused.

Distinction is the essence of sound theology.

You fail to distinguish between a man being a regenerated by the sovereign grace of God, and the same man being recognized by you as a brethren through his believing the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

They are ALREADY regenerated by God's free grace EVEN THOUGH you don't know or recognize them. He does not become a regenerate because you recognized them.

If you can't see the difference, cease raving <LOL>

MarkandAnna Cattemull
Sing said, "I can only recognize who my brothers are when such regenerate (i.e. children of God) are brought to faith in Jesus Christ through the gospel ministry."

I never said your recognition of their faith MADE them regenerate. My point is that YOU can only RECOGNIZE them as regenerate WHEN (in your own words) they "are brought to faith in Jesus Christ through the gospel ministry" Maybe it's because English is your second language, I don't know, but re-read my third post, and please spell my name properly! lol

Sing F Lau
There must be miscommunication.
A person's regenerate state is PRIOR to your recognition of him as a brother in Christ through his faith in Jesus Christ.

Your being born in New Zealand is prior to my knowledge and recognition of that fact when I discovered it.

MarkandAnna Cattemull
"A person's regenerate state is PRIOR to your recognition of him as a brother in Christ through his faith in Jesus Christ."

AMEN! YES! CORRECT! I TOTALLY AGREE!

An Athiest can be regenerated as an Athiest, but YOU can only recognize him as a brother "when such regenerate (i.e. children of God) are brought to faith in Jesus Christ through the gospel ministry." A Voodoo priest can be regenerated as a Voodoo priest, but You can only recognize him as a brother "when such regenerate are brought to faith in Jesus Christ through the gospel ministry." Even an Arminian can be regenerated as an Arminian, but YOU can only recognize him as a brother "when such regenerate are brought to faith in Jesus Christ through the gospel ministry." I hope that dispels any miscommunication!

Sing F Lau
English is my third, probably 4th, language.

So, you will have difficulty understanding what I am saying. More likely, however, we believe differently.

And your name is a combination of a cattle and a mule <lol> and a cattemull is indeed a marked (unique) creature. Have a good day, Mark Cattemull (see I can spell your name right!).

MarkandAnna Cattemull
Glad I was clear at last Mr Sing F lau! Don't accept Arminians as your brothers UNTIL they are brought to faith in The Gospel. Before that they are holding to "another" gospel, that's all. btw for future ref, my name has nothing to do with either creature. It's ancient Dutch in origin. You should appreciate that, eh?

All the best Sir!

Sing F Lau
Don't worry, a Dutch is a Dutch even if his beliefs is not very Dutchy yet! A believer in Jesus Christ is a child of God even if he HASN'T believed all things like you do!

 

Love your wife! Make love to her only!

God's invigorating well versus world's withering pits

Cool and invigorating water from your own well!

Copied from here:

http://www.letgodbetrue.com/proverbs/commentaries/05_15.php

"Drink waters out of thine own cistern, 

and running waters out of thine own well."

Proverbs 5:15 

Love your wife! Make love to her only! Make your marriage the hottest in the world! You have no right to any other woman. You should not look on another woman, think about another woman, flirt with another woman, or ever touch another woman sexually.

Go for it! Today! This is God’s plan and will for your life. He wants you to have a great sex life with your great wife. “Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love” (Pr 5:19).

The true God knows life can be empty and frustrating, so He gave you one of His greatest gifts of creation: “Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun” (Eccl 9:9).

God created love, sex, and every aspect of the woman you need – your wife. He knows you need and want sex, so He chose the woman that is your wife to practice with until you are perfectly satisfied. All other women are off limits. “Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge” (Heb 13:4).

The Bible is the perfect love, marriage, and sex manual. God invented sex, so He has perfect knowledge about it. Have you read the Bible and heard it preached to maximize your marriage? If you have read and heard it preached, have you submitted to God’s sovereign, providential choice of your wife and His orders for how you should treat her?

Water, a precious blessing in the dry climate of the Middle East, is here a metaphor for sexual pleasure with a woman. Water satisfies thirst, is necessary for survival, and is very pleasing to a thirsty soul (Pr 25:25). Men drew fresh water from wells; they stored extra water in cisterns. Every man needed his own supply to protect himself and his family.

Men need the water of sexual pleasure, for God put a great desire and need in them for it (Gen 2:18; Deut 21:11; I Cor 7:2,5,9). Any exceptions confirm this well-known rule rather than modify or nullify it (Matt 19:10-12; I Tim 4:3; I Cor 9:5). Men will have sex one way or another, but God condemns all other creatures but one – your wife.

Men also crave food by God’s design, and they desire and enjoy His blessing of wine (Ps 104:14-15; Eccl 9:7), but drinking and eating without limitation or discipline are sin and folly (Pr 23:20). Men must hate and reject drunkenness or gluttony, and they should never forget that breaking God’s rules for sexual water is sin and deserves judgment.

A man’s own wife is a great gift from God, for which he should be thankful (Pr 18:22; 19:14). Consider Jacob: “And Jacob served seven years for Rachel; and they seemed unto him but a few days, for the love he had to her” (Gen 29:20). A man may drink deeply of sexual pleasure from his own wife only, not from any other woman, single or married.

No man should even consider the cisterns or wells of others, for the wife God picked for him is more than enough for his needs and happiness. To think upon the cisterns and wells of others is to sin and open the door for great folly (Pr 6:25; Job 31:1; Matt 5:28). Any woman is more than enough for any man, and God chose your wife for just you.

Are you disappointed or frustrated in your marriage? Do you agree with what has been written, but you personally are not experiencing it? Are you thirsty, and your wife seems to have run dry? Or you can see the water, but you seldom or never taste any of it? Is the water of your cistern and well now somewhat lukewarm and putrid, not appealing at all?

If the water supply at home is lacking in any way, maybe the pump needs priming. How do you prime the pump to bring forth running water? Treat your wife the way the Creator of love, sex, marriage, and women told you to treat her. It is that simple. God made her as perfect as a rose, but lack of sunshine, rain, soil, and nurture will cause her to close up.

God and Solomon order you to treat her as delicately and tenderly as a pet female deer, to be totally satisfied with her body, and to choose to greatly enjoy her lovemaking. “Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love” (Pr 5:19). God knows your wife. Try His way.

Paul told you to love your wife and to cherish and nourish her, like you do your own body (Eph 5:25-29). King Solomon wrote a love song that describes the passion and details of lovers and lovemaking. Have you read the Song of Solomon? Have you tried talking to your wife and treating her the way that this man treated his lover wife?

The strong warning intended by this proverb to limit yourself to your own wife includes use of pornography, which foolishly steals visual pleasure from another woman, causes discontentment with your woman, and hurts your woman’s confidence or desire to ever be the lover you need and want. Your wife will be as hot as you choose or help her to be.

Every Christian woman, every daughter of God, should be careful and faithful in making sure her husband drinks deeply, often, and pleasantly, lest she drive him to wells that are not his, due to bitterness or dryness in his own cistern and well (I Co 7:2-5). Let husbands and wives, with the husband leading the way in love, maximize the pleasure of marriage.

 

Visitors on 1st March 2013

The ClustrMaps informs that visitors from these parts of the world visited the blog during the 24 hrs of March 1, 2013.

03/01 @ 23:59 : Palo Alto, California, US
03/01 @ 23:47 : Mountain View, California, US
03/01 @ 22:12 : Bukit Mertajam, MY
03/01 @ 21:51 : Mountain View, California, US
03/01 @ 21:50 : Palo Alto, California, US
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03/01 @ 15:57 : Menlo Park, California, US
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03/01 @ 15:15 : Singapore, SG
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03/01 @ 00:10 : Perth, AU

Thanks for visiting and reading. May the Lord bless you to understand some of the things discussed. But whether you believe or not, I leave that to the Lord!