 |
"These
ruralites are so primitive, |
'Arminians are not Christians!'
You will hear that asserted often from some 'reformed' pulpits!
They complain, and insinuate like this, "there are some less enlightened pastors who explain to their congregations that those pesky Arminians are Christians but just a little ignorant and confused, and just need better instruction in the doctrines of grace. Such are actually saying that God does a really lousy job of saving those Arminians. But when God saves, He saves completely, producing staunch and sound Calvinists like us! Our almighty and sovereign Lord won't do anything less. Anything less can't be God's work." And their congregations consent with loud "amen"!
'Arminians are not Christians???'
The answer to that injurious and blasphemous notion is quite simple: these 'reformed' people are ignorant (oh how could these elitist folks be ignorant of anything?) of the distinction between eternal salvation administered by God's free and sovereign grace, and temporal salvation through the gospel ministry administered by God-sent men.
When God saves, He saves to the uttermost, always complete and perfect every time... from predestination all the way unto glorification, never misses one beat on any elect. And He does not need any help from anyone whatsoever, reformed elitists included.
God saves by turning condemned dead sinners into justified regenerated children of God... all equally, and perfectly fitted for eternal glory... and all by His own free grace, based on the same finished work of Jesus Christ. That's eternal salvation. In this there is no variation or deficiency at all; it is always complete and perfect. All are equally saved in every sense of the word. That deals with the BEING of God's children.
God appoints the gospel ministry for the instruction and conversion of His children to the truth of their salvation by His free and sovereign grace in Christ Jesus. This deals with the WELL BEING of God's children. The well-being of God's children is through the gospel ministry, and a whole host of different human factors are involved in the gospel ministry.
God's children are at different stages of conversion through the gospel ministry... but they are perfectly and equally God's children by the free and sovereign grace of God.
Apostle Paul called the believers in Corinth SAINTS... as well as those in the church in Thessalonica. Look at the saints in the seven churches in the Book of Revelation.
There is a vast degree of practical sanctification in the children of God through the gospel ministry... EVEN THOUGH all of them are equally and definitively sanctified from their state of condemnation and death unto that state of justification and eternal life.
Some elite Americans think this way: ONLY the Americans who have gone through Ivy League schools and achieved the American Dream are true Americans! The rest are not even Americans! That's the mentality of many 'reformed' folks towards God's children who haven't attained their standard of doctrinal correctness concerning salvation!
(Actually, the reformed folks are quite messed in a whole host of things too! - but they are too high-minded to notice or acknowledge it!)
Oh if only these sincere 'reformed' folks are aware of the 'deformity' of some of their own doctrines!
A
biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology.
Sing
F Lau
Such
'reformed' folks have no fear of God... mocking, insinuating and accusing God
of a lousy work of redemption while the real problem is their own ignorance of
the truth.
Romans
8
29
¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the
image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called,
them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
There
is absolute completeness and perfection, with no variation in the slightest
degree. The Triune God ALONE, without any instrumentality purposed,
accomplished, and apply this ETERNAL salvation for the elect.
Phi
2
12
¶ Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only,
but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and
trembling.
13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
There is great variation here. The degree of salvation attained and experienced is dependent upon the degree of obedience to work out one's own salvation with fear and trembling, as God works in them to will and to do His good pleasure. There will be great variation here.
Alan
Lloyd
So
what are you trying to say? who is and who isn't a christian?
Sing
F Lau
I
am saying, "many 'reformed' folks say that the Arminians whom they despise are
not Christian."
What do you think I am trying to say to that? <LOL>
Sing
F Lau
"Reformed
pastors who explain to their congregations that those who are Arminians are
still Christians, just a little mixed up and confused, and just need better
instruction in the Doctrines of Grace, are actually saying that God does a
really lousy job in saving some... But does just a great and stupendous job of
saving them!"
==========
The
perverse mocking, '... that God does a really lousy job in saving some' is a
betrayal of a preconceived idea which is completely contrary to biblical facts.
The
preconceived idea: that the salvation that was purposed, accomplished for, and
applied to the elect by the free and sovereign grace of God INCLUDES the same
degree of conversion to the truth of the gospel of Christ.
Based on that erroneous and presumptuous notion, they conclude that since
Arminians are not as converted to the truth of grace, therefore they are not
Christians, still under condemnation and lost in their sins.
Anyone who has read the Bible at all can see that that notion simply does not match the realities recorded in the Scriptures concerning God's people, both in the OT as well as in the NT. Just read the SAINTS Paul was addressing in the various epistles, especially Galatians and Hebrews.
Josiah
Lau
Dad
is there a difference between a 'Christian' and a 'child of God'... I would say
that a 'Christian' is a label, for one who confesses Christ as Redeemer and
Saviour. Who is a child of God, however, is not dependent on a profession of
faith, it is by God's work of eternal salvation. So perhaps there is a
difference between 'Arminians are not children of God' and 'Arminians are not
Christians'?
Of
course by 'Christian' these pastors could mean 'children of God', which means
they conflate the Christian's believing in God and his/her subsequent
profession of faith with the eternal salvation of God.
Another question is, Is there a meaningful distinction to draw between a Christian and a child of God in discussion of salvation?
Alan
Lloyd
Oh
no, it's only Presbyterians that think that and the like.
Sing
F Lau
Josiah
Lau, you have made a careful and needful distinction between a Christian and a
child of God. But many 'reformed' people are unable and don't make that
distinction at all. This is because they, near 100% of them believe in gospel
regeneration - i.e. regeneration and believing the gospel are always joined
together... a sinner dead in sin is regenerated by the Holy Spirit when he
hears and believes the gospel, therefore a child of God is always a Christian
as well. To them, there is simply no such thing as a child of God who is not a
Christian as well.
You
are ahead of many reformed theologians when you say that 'who a child of God is
... is not dependent on the profession of faith.' The profession of faith evidences
one's sonship by the PRIOR activity of God's free and sovereign grace.
'Of
course by 'Christian' these pastors could mean 'children of God', which means
they conflate the Christian's believing in God and his/her subsequent profession
of faith with the eternal salvation of God' - That is the ONLY WAY very many
reformed people understand things!
There
is a very important distinction between a Christian and a child of God... it is
precisely because reformed people are so loose in their thinking that they
equate the two.
Divine
regeneration ALONE brings about a child of God: God through His free and
sovereign activity of regeneration turns a condemned dead sinner into a
justified living child of God.
The
gospel ministry turns a child of God who believes in the gospel of Christ into a
Christian. The conversion of a child of God to the gospel of Jesus Christ
produces a Christian.
I am glad you are thinking about these matters.
Arminians are people to embrace defective and erroneous gospel doctrines. They are close cousins of the Calvinists who despise them!
Sing
F Lau
Another
question is, Is there a meaningful distinction to draw between a Christian and
a child of God in a discussion of salvation?
=========
Great
question!
One
must be an elect first... if he ever going to be regenerated and become a child
of God. Regeneration is the sole prerogative of God's free and sovereign
activity.
A
child of God must be reached with the gospel of Jesus Christ if he is ever
going to be converted to the truth of his salvation by the free and sovereign
grace of Jesus Christ. Understood this way, there are children of God who are
NOT converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ at all. Cornelius was already a
child of God long before he was converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Those
multitudes of DEVOUT Jews who came to Jerusalem to observe the Pentecost were
already God's children... but unto that day were not converted to the gospel of
Jesus Christ yet. Those who profess faith in the Lord Jesus Christ publicly
through water baptism are called Christians.
And
among the Christians, those who own and bear the name of Christ through water
baptism, there are good disciples, there are poor disciples and there are
bad disciples. See the parable of the sower, Mt 13.
So each term - elect, child of God, Christian, and disciple has its specific meaning. Sadly, many don't see any difference.
Sing
F Lau
This
verse shows me there are even those that could be a child of God within RCC.
Let the Lord have mercy upon whom He will have mercy. His blood, not ours to
justify His Saints!
=========
I
say there are God's children among the Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, communists,
liberals, etc... They need to be converted to the truth of their salvation in
Jesus Christ by God's free grace!
(Some idiots will AGAIN conclude from my words that Pastor Lau believes the Muslims are God's children too! They have done it before. But I say no such thing. Haven't they heard of the many Muslims converted to Christ?)
Sing
F Lau
Oh
no, it's only Presbyterians that think that and the like.
========
Many
RBs do the same... they write the Arminians off the same way!
Cheri
Thomas
Paul
wrote:
Brethren,
my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
For
I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to
knowledge.
For
they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their
own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Now
does anyone really believe that Paul was speaking of eternal salvation here? Or
was he addressing a temporal salvation from doctrinal error? Of course, there
are elect children of God who are in intellectual darkness, which can be
likened to grave clothes. When Lazarus came forth, he was ALIVE. Jesus commanded
his disciples to 'Loose him, and let him go.' Loose him from what?
What are God's ministers to loose newly regenerated children (aka, CHRISTIANS), from?
PJ
Walters
"As
concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the
election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes." Romans 11:28
Many folks (including many in false religions!), concerning the gospel, are enemies to us! But according to the election, they are beloved because of God!
MarkandAnna
Cattemull
OK
then, but don't forget to include the Russellites, Mormons, SDA's, Christian
Science and the RC's.
Sing
F Lau
Why,
OF COURSE, there are God's children among them, despite your cynicism.
That's
why there are Christian converts from such backgrounds! But you don't believe
such a thing, do you? I baptized a convert from the RC recently...and there are
converts from Islam in militantly Islamic states! And there are converts in places
completely sold to voodooism.
MarkandAnna
Cattemull
I'm
just following your logic. If people can be regenerate and yet fight against
the Gospel, as Arminians do, and yet be your brothers in Christ, then why stop
with just Arminians? Russellites, Mormons, SDA's and the RC also fight against
the Gospel. Why don't you include them as your regenerated brothers in Christ
also?
Sing
F Lau
It
is revelation if you have an eye to see. Some passages have been quoted above...
but obviously, you don't believe them. So much for 'Scriptures alone'!
Your
sarcastic rhetorical question misses the point... and discloses your
obtuseness.
I
can only recognize who my brothers are when such regenerate (i.e. children of God) are brought to
faith in Jesus Christ through the gospel ministry.
If I understand you correctly, you believe there are no children of God among such... until the gospel preaching is blessed to make children for God. It's ok... you are in good company of a great multitude of gospel regenerationists!
Mark
Thomas
Poor
impotent god. Needs those gospel ministers to be the surrogate father to his
children. Can't get the job done by himself. I am sure thankful that is not my
GOD.
Ps 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
PJ
Walters
They
pray to a god that cannot save them! They say, "Oh, it is not that he cannot;
it is that he will not." Poor souls! They have gone from praying to a god
who cannot save to a god who WILL NOT save!
MarkandAnna
Cattemull
Sing
said, "I can only recognize who my brothers are when such regenerate (i.e. children of God) are
brought to faith in Jesus Christ through the gospel ministry." Exactly!
And UNTIL THEN you are in error to say they are your regenerate brethren.
Sing said, "That's why there are Christian converts from such backgrounds!" I absolutely agree... FROM such backgrounds! The keyword there is FROM. Your initial argument was that souls IN Arminians are regenerated! There's a huge difference between a soul in an Arminian and one saved FROM it. You say, "I baptized a convert from the RC recently...and there are converts from Islam in militantly Islamic states! And there are converts in places completely sold to voodooism." I'm glad you baptised a convert FROM the RC, I hope you can baptise more! And yes, there are indeed "converts FROM Islam, and FROM voodoo! There are elect souls in Arminianism, and every other "ism", who will be converted FROM such! If that's now your meaning, then I agree with you.
Sing
F Lau
Sing
said, "I can only recognize who my brothers are when such regenerate (i.e. children of God) are
brought to faith in Jesus Christ through the gospel ministry."
Cattle
retorted: Exactly! And UNTIL THEN you are in error to say they are your regenerate
brethren.
==========
You
are confused.
Distinction
is the essence of sound theology.
You
fail to distinguish between a man being a regenerated by the sovereign grace of
God, and the same man being recognized by you as a brethren through his
believing the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.
They
are ALREADY regenerated by God's free grace EVEN THOUGH you don't know or
recognize them. He does not become a regenerate because you recognized them.
If you can't see the difference, cease raving <LOL>
MarkandAnna
Cattemull
Sing
said, "I can only recognize who my brothers are when such regenerate (i.e. children of God) are
brought to faith in Jesus Christ through the gospel ministry."
I never said your recognition of their faith MADE them regenerate. My point is that YOU can only RECOGNIZE them as regenerate WHEN (in your own words) they "are brought to faith in Jesus Christ through the gospel ministry" Maybe it's because English is your second language, I don't know, but re-read my third post, and please spell my name properly! lol
Sing
F Lau
There
must be miscommunication.
A
person's regenerate state is PRIOR to your recognition of him as a brother in
Christ through his faith in Jesus Christ.
Your being born in New Zealand is prior to my knowledge and recognition of that fact when I discovered it.
MarkandAnna
Cattemull
"A
person's regenerate state is PRIOR to your recognition of him as a brother in
Christ through his faith in Jesus Christ."
AMEN!
YES! CORRECT! I TOTALLY AGREE!
An Athiest can be regenerated as an Athiest, but YOU can only recognize him as a brother "when such regenerate (i.e. children of God) are brought to faith in Jesus Christ through the gospel ministry." A Voodoo priest can be regenerated as a Voodoo priest, but You can only recognize him as a brother "when such regenerate are brought to faith in Jesus Christ through the gospel ministry." Even an Arminian can be regenerated as an Arminian, but YOU can only recognize him as a brother "when such regenerate are brought to faith in Jesus Christ through the gospel ministry." I hope that dispels any miscommunication!
Sing
F Lau
English
is my third, probably 4th, language.
So,
you will have difficulty understanding what I am saying. More likely, however,
we believe differently.
And your name is a combination of a cattle and a mule <lol> and a cattemull is indeed a marked (unique) creature. Have a good day, Mark Cattemull (see I can spell your name right!).
MarkandAnna
Cattemull
Glad
I was clear at last Mr Sing F lau! Don't accept Arminians as your brothers
UNTIL they are brought to faith in The Gospel. Before that they are holding to
"another" gospel, that's all. btw for future ref, my name has nothing
to do with either creature. It's ancient Dutch in origin. You should appreciate
that, eh?
All the best Sir!
Sing
F Lau
Don't
worry, a Dutch is a Dutch even if his beliefs is not very Dutchy yet! A
believer in Jesus Christ is a child of God even if he HASN'T believed all
things like you do!
