I put the following obvious difference between the WCF and the 1689CoF, and the following exchanges followed. You will meet one proud, boastful American by the name of Ray Berrian. Whether he is a brilliant unthinking moron, you be the judge!!!
Enjoy the exchanges below, taken from [https://www.facebook.com/#!/notes/sing-f-lau/there-is-a-distinct-difference-are-you-aware/10152138323323484]
The WCF on God's Decrees
3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.
The Calvinists teach Double Predestination - election (God actively predestinated some to eternal salvation) and reprobation (God actively foreordained the rest to eternal damnation.) Reformed Baptists, being Calvinists, believe this lie too.
The 1689 on God's Decrees
3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
The Calvinistic Baptists, who are followers of Calvin, teach Double Predestination - election (God actively predestinated some to eternal salvation) and reprobation (God actively predestinated the rest to eternal damnation.) Reformed Baptists, being Calvinists, believe this lie too.
The Old Baptists teach Single Predestination - election. (God actively predestinated some to eternal salvation), and Preterition (the rest are passively by-passed and left to their just condemnation). The Old Baptists were no Calvinists! They were distinctly Old School Baptists!
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The exchanges:
CanJoe
What did Calvin teach? double or single predestination? (I haven't read the whole of Calvin's institutes myself)
Sing F Lau
Read the Bible. Don't waste time reading Calvin!
If you need to know his thought, google "calvin and double predestination."
You will get what you are looking for!!!
Sing F Lau
"In conformity, therefore, to the clear doctrine of the Scripture, we assert, that by an eternal and immutable counsel, God has once for all determined, BOTH [emphasis mine, sing] whom he would admit to salvation, and whom he would condemn to destruction." John Calvin http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/calvin-predestin2.asp.
CanJoe
ok... so u mean old sch baptists dont agree on this point with patriarch Calvin?
And don't agree w WCF on this point thus also?
Sing F Lau
Have you read the above WCF statement by Calvinists and the 1689 statement by old school Baptists?
No, Calvin was NOOOOO patriarch of the old school baptists. Calvin HATED and persecuted the baptists from the free churches of his days!
CanJoe
Ah! Now i hv a clearer understanding! Thanks for explaining the positions!
Ok, so are old school Baptists calvinists or armenians?
Sing F Lau
CanJoe, go and find out for yourself. That way you are more likely to learn a few things!
Armenians are people of Armenia. Calvin wasn't born when there were old school baptists!
So, old school baptists are NEITHER calvinists and nor arminians.
You know only these two groups???????
CanJoe
I was taught by my uncle theologians that a person is either a calvinist or arminian...
Or either 4 point calvinist... Or hypercalvinist...
Are there any other ways to classify?
Sing F Lau
Your uncle theologians are tooooo simplistic... giasu and giasi people are like that
So, is a 4-pointer still a calvinist in your simplistic classification?
What about a two pointer? Do you have a label for that?
How do you classify someone who exposes and rejects the errors of BOTH calvinism? An Arminian?
Your uncle theologians will like to retort that there is no error in calvinism.
May the Lord open you eyes to greater things in His word!!!
CanJoe
Yeah... i was taught that anyone who is less than a 5-point Calvinist, is an ARMINIAN...
Sing F Lau
CanJoe, perhaps it's time to grow up, and move beyond seeing the Christian world in those SIMPLISTIC terms. There are lots of people who are NEITHER Calvinist NOR Arminians. I'm one of them... and there are hosts of others. You are not YET awakened to some of the SERIOUS errors of Calvinism. So, I will let you be. When you are ready, you will ask and I will listen!
Malco
Bro Sing, i would definitely say that i am neither an Arminian or a Calvinist. I would be very interested to hear of these serious errors of Calvinism if you have time to share. God be with you
CanJoe
Timothy tow said calvinism is paulinism systematised...
How is that not true? [sing - so just because TT said it, it must be true???]
Sing F Lau
Is Timothy Tow your uncle theologian?
CanJoe
My uncles' uncle theologian =)
Sing F Lau
CanJoe, supposing I can show you there is great difference between what Paul taught and what Calvin taught, would you be ready admit that Timothy Tow, your uncles' uncle theologian, is wrong? Or perhaps you would say Calvin is right but Paul is wrong?
Why are you hiding under the skirt of your uncles' uncle theologian???
It is time you grow up, and study the Scriptures yourself...
CanJoe
yeah! just wonder what's the difference if any? Any convincing proofs?
Sing F Lau
If there are great differences, will you be ready to admit that your uncles' uncle theologian is WRONG? Yes or no? You are so handicapped because you are so indoctrinated such that you are incapable of studying Scriptures for yourself anymore... evidence: you are always quoting men as your authority.
You want convincing proofs? That's not a difficult task at all.
Let's proceed this way: you show us here your uncles' uncle theologian's doctrine of justification, and I will show you that it differs from that taught by Paul in the NT.
You can quote your uncles' uncle theologian... and I will just put him beside Apostle Paul... the apostle of the Gentiles.
Your move! Thanks.
CanJoe
Give me 2 weeks to make my move. Im busy w may essays
Sing F Lau
Haven't you studied and understood your uncles' uncle theologian's doctrine on justification YET?????
Then why did you believe and repeat your uncles' uncle theologian assertion that calvinism is paulinism systematised...?????????
Take your time please.
CanJoe
Sing F Lau... I just had a v hectic week, need to find a place to relax....
I need more time to make my move... pardon me...
Sing F Lau
Dear Brother, take all the time you need!
Pj
I'm looking forward to this!
 |
| Sweetie, bring him up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. |
Ray
[Ray Berrian is an American man who claims to have done double Advanced Hermenuetics, and earned double Doctorates from some great American Cemeteries! - sing]
Augustinian-Calvinism is flawed for many reasons. One is the Lord is no respecter of persons; He died for the sins of the whole world [I John 2:2]. If God favors some souls for Heaven and some for Hell then Romans 2:11; II Samuel 14:14 & Deuteronomy 10:17 are pure and simple lies coming from Jesus.
This Catholic theologian and the Protestant Reformation scholar Calvin has made the Lord into God without purity of Divine justice.
Sing F Lau
Ray, I told you that if you are interested in Augustinian-Calvinism, this is not a place for you.
And if you are interested in that Genevan, go visit his grave somewhere in Europe!
You will find your match in the gentleman CanJoe... he's a champion of the Genevan!
I'm interested in Scriptures ONLY!
Despite your double courses in Advanced Hermeneutics, you have not yet learn how to rightly divide the word of truth! You are grasping at straws for your fables... I delight in burning those straws that you grasp so firmly.
1Jn 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
If 2John 2:2 says what you imagined, then try explaining:
- John 17:9, "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine." And this
- 1Jo 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
You are just so obtuse and incorrigible. Apostle John used the term world, often to mean NOT JUST THE JEWS (for the Jews were just as obtuse as you BUT in the other direction... that salvation is JUST FOR THE JEWS!!!) but also for all the ethnic groups of the world.
Rev 5:9 "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation."
If Christ was the propitiation for the WHOLE world [the way you make it to say, then ALL THE SINS of everyone exhaustively without exception, would have been propitiated... and everyone would be in eternal glory. You CAN'T even add 2 + 2 in hermeneutics!
No, God did not damn any to hell... they did it themselves. You are twisting God's word. If God had not favored any for eternal glory, all without exception would justly deserve lake of fire for themselves because of sins.
So, learn to represent of the God of the Bible before you talk further!!!
Ray
Perhaps the best book that brings enlightenment to autocratic, Augustinian Calvinists is Dave Hunt's WHAT KIND OF LOVE IS THIS? He is awesome and the LORD has gifted him to in interpretation of all of the related passages in the Word of God. He takes Christians out of the Dark Ages with St. Augustine as the interpreter and illuminates the Word being a great, great theologian.
Supralapsarianism and Infralapsarianism turn our Savior into a autocratic, prejudicial all powerful Being who decrees the damnation of the majority of humankind to the torment of eternal Hell. This destroys the reality of the uncorrupted God of love and Divine justice toward all human beings. Even babies who die are destined to Hell or Heaven according to the Divine decree.
This makes God into a kind of Stalin; He decides who lives with Him and who is turned into everlasting destruction. God is not evil which is a fundamental tenant of the Christian faith.
Sing F Lau
You have double Advanced Hermeneutics under your belt, but you can't stick to Scriptures alone... but running to hide under Dave Hunt's skirt! Why don't you stick to Scriptures???
Those who have the slightest inkling of grace will cry out that if God hadn't chose to save many out of the fallen and condemned race of Adam, none would be saved at all. God did not leave all to perish in their sins, but intervened and chose some, and gave them to Christ, who came to save them to the uttermost. God is gracious and merciful... just and righteous... all His attributes are perfect, i.e. infinite, eternal and unchangeable.
Why don't you deal with the God who loved me.
Augustin and Calvin are not here. They are dead and gone...
You and I are here... and if you agree to stick to the Scriptures we can talk.
Else please DON'T waste time raving away.
Ray
Your analogy is depraved; where is your spiritual mind?
Augustine, Calvin and Luther were all held and gripped in the theology of Catholicism. John Wesley finally became unfettered from the theology buried in Dark Ages philosophy and their failed attempt to find the exacting truth.
Neither passage written by the Apostle John in John 3:16 and I John 5:13 are contradicting each other. The Word of God is heard, the Spirit convicts us of our sins and depravity and the Spirit of God leads us to believe and trust in Christ as Savior. [Romans 10:17].
Since you believe you are a Word man more than me, I am sure you are forced to agree in Acts 7:51 that people can and do resist the Almighty calling of the Spirit of God unto salvation.
Pj
Mr. Ray, it is quite evident that Bro. Sing DOES NOT WISH to discuss Augustine, Luther, or Calvin (much less Wesley). Those men are dead. Leave them in their graves and do not bring them into this discussion as per Bro. Sing's request.
No one has said that those passages contradict; but with YOUR UNDERSTANDING, they contradict.
Acts 7:51 is not the resistance of the bestowal of death unto life by the Spirit of grace, but resisting Him in guidance unto truth. Beware! Thou doest this, likewise!
Sing F Lau
Ray, do you know what your double Advanced Hermeneutics done to your mind???
They teach you to ignore those plain Scriptures that destroy your fable.
And this is how... you STRENUOUSLY avoid the plain and biblical subject on the absolute necessity of sinners DEAD in trespasses and sins to be regenerated by the Spirit of God BEFORE they can do anything; EXCEPT a man is born again, he CANNOT!
May be you and I read different Bibles! Doesn't your Bible speaks of the absolute necessity of a sinner being QUICKENED from his spiritual deadness before he can perform any spiritual activities???
The double Advanced Hermeneutics has taught you this skill... avoid the plain Scriptures that DEBUNK your fiction!
Pj
And quite obviously, the world for which Christ would not even pray in John 17:9 is NOT the same as the world which God do loved in John 3:16.
Even this backwoods redneck sees this!
Sing F Lau
Ray fantasizes, "The Word of God is heard, the Spirit convicts us of our sins and depravity and the Spirit of God leads us to believe and trust in Christ as Savior. [Romans 10:17]."
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Ray fantasizes that the dead in trespasses and sins has the ability to hear the word of God!!!
Apostle Paul declares this:
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Why do you want to deny the absolute necessity of the new birth by the sovereign activity of the Spirit of God before that can be any ability to hear spiritual truth, and believe them??????? Why are you so impudent to repudiate the very words from the lips of Christ?
BECAUSE to acknowledge that simple biblical truth will destroy all your pet ideas and fables. PERIOD.
Reyes
Pastor Sing what is the calvinism is paulinism systematised? can you please explain.
Sing F Lau
Reyes, that is CanJoe's uncles' uncle theologian's assertion, and he wholeheartedly believes it.
So we are waiting for him to demonstrate the truth of it to us. Let us just wait patiently for Cantoro to present his case.
Reyes
Ah!! ok, thank you Pastor Sing.
Ray
In defense of your system of thinking, you have remembered the 'dead and in traspasses and sins' but have ignored the 'in the image of God in man' Divine reality, plus the greater power and authority of the Holy Spirit to work on sinners wooing them to Jesus and His plan of eternal salvation.
As to sinners, without a Christian witness, a tract, the hearing of the salvation message or a dream or vision, no sinner can be approach by the Holy Spirit because there is no knowledge of what Jesus did for all sinners at the Cross.
MartySS
In the scriptures, the word "world" rarely means "the entire human race".
Caesar Augustus decreed that all the world should be taxed - but this was only the Roman world.
In the flood, the world that then was, was overflowed by water - but this excepted 8 human beings.
In I John 2:15, we are told to not love the world, and that if any man does love the world, the love of the Father is not in him! Surely this is not the same world as I John 2:2 or John 3:16.
In John 10:15, Jesus Christ tells us that He lays down His life for the sheep, and then in John 10:25-26, He states that there are people who are not of His sheep, and that therefore they do not believe.
The world in John 3:16 is not the entire human race, but the world that God so loves; the world in I John 2:2 is not the entire human race, but the world for whom Christ is the propitiation, or satisfaction - from among the Jews and Gentiles, males and females, bondmen and freemen.
MartySS
God is no respecter OF persons, but God does have respect UNTO persons. See Genesis 4:4, Exodus 2:25, Leviticus 26:9.
What is the difference?
If I take something OF your bank account, I take something that is already there. If I take something UNTO your bank account, I take something into your account that was not previously there.
And this is how the Lord Jesus Christ saves a sinner unto eternal life. He does not look for something (even faith) already there by virtue of being a human being. He puts the eternal life of His Holy Spirit into a person who did not have any faith, and faith is produced as a fruit of His Spirit. See Galatians 5:22.
Sing F Lau
Ray, I don't defend any system... I'm merely stating Christ's words to you!!! You reject and repudiate Christ's plain words!
I have not forgotten that man is made in the image of God... That fact of man being made in the image of God DOES NOTHING to mitigate the fact of his deadness in trespasses and sins. The Creator God himself warned Adam solemnly, "... for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
You might as well say, since man is made in the image of God, God made a SERIOUS MISTAKE in giving that warning to Adam... because according to your fable Adam's being made in the image of God can mitigate the spiritual DEADNESS!!!
You are a hater of Christ's words!!!
Ray
'The LORD θελει all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.' This Greek word means according to Dr. Strong 'wishes, delights, desires . . . '
Also, if a sinner is born again, then gets the knowledge of salvation and is given faith, as you errantly think, then this makes the words, ' . . . and to come to the knowledge of the truth' superfluous.
'This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth' [I Timothy 2:3-4]. The New International Version.
The New Living Translation:
'This is good and pleases God our Savior, who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth.'
The Greek New Testament and these two translation witness against errant theology. God who sent Jesus does not favor human beings as to sending them to Heaven and Hell.
MartySS
And the "all men" does not mean "all men without exception" but rather "all men without distinction" or "all types of men" - as in men who are Jews, Gentiles, males, females, bondmen, and freemen. If God wanted "all men without exception" to be saved unto eternal life, then they would indeed be saved in that way, and no human being would go to the lake of fire for his wicked works. For God accomplishes all His purpose and pleasure, and all for whom Jesus Christ died will indeed be glorified. Can one believe that God wanted, wished and desired for a person to be glorified, and yet does not get that wish, but must go with His holy purpose unfulfilled for all eternity? I do not believe that, and the Bible does not teach that.
It bothers me that so many say that God will not violate man's free will, but that man through rejecting God's "offers" can violate God's will for all eternity. God no more requires man's permission to bestow eternal spiritual life than He required Adam's permission to breathe into his nostrils the breath of natural life.
MartySS
[Romans 8:30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
For the moment, let's skip the argument about what foreknowledge and predestination mean. Romans 8:30 clearly states that every one whom God calls, He justifies. And every one He justifies, He glorifies.
The only conclusion is that, at the final judgment, if an individual is not glorified, then God never called that individual.
Sing F Lau
O Ray, the more you rave, the more pathetic you get!
Now you run to hide under the skirts of NIV, NLT, and the Greek NT to hide your impudence in blatantly denying Christ's plain words!!!
Isn't Christ words plain enough... "Except a man be born again, he cannot..."
And the simple reason for the absolute necessity for the new birth is simply because without it, a man is DEAD in his trespasses and sins!!!
Please tell us why it is soooooooo hard for you to receive Christ's declaration?
Is it because it debunks your fable, or injures the pride of sinners?
 | |
| Don't be brain dead, young man!!! |
Steve
Ray @ "As to sinners, without a Christian witness, a tract, the hearing of the salvation message or a dream or vision, no sinner can be approach by the Holy Spirit because there is no knowledge of what Jesus did for all sinners at the Cross."
Perhaps you ought to study carefully your OWN words. No sinner can be approach by the Holy Spirit?? what Jesus did for all sinners at the Cross??
Pj
As I have stated before, Mr. Ray continues the serpent's lie.
Man by nature is dead in trespasses and sins. Mr. Ray says that man by nature isn't REALLY dead!
Ray
Pj, your words above are true to what most 21st century Christians believe, including myself.
Lau, I am sure you are not as scholarly as those men or women who interpreted the NIV, NLT. When you ignore the Biblical Greek N.T. this shows us that you are not interested in absolute truth. No offense intended.
Ray
Mr. Smith, Context. Context. You like Romans 8:30 but not verse 29 which indicates that election is true but only according to Jesus 'foreknowledge.' The Lord sees the faith of those who believe and follow Him and those He predestines to become the people of God. Predestination does not place in motion His foreknowledge nor our calling or our justification..
Foreknowledge and then He predestines sinners to become sinners or saints.
Pj
If the modern (21st century) "Christians" believe that man by nature isn't really dead in sins, I will SURELY stand by Christ and the apostles!
You have placed man's works of righteousness as the basis of foreknowledge! Nay! It is the righteousness of Christ upon which foreknowledge is based!
For the record, NIV and NLT are PER-versions of the truth.
Ray
The early Church Fathers had no systematized theology but they did honor what the apostles said in their autographs. Calvinists sometime flee from verses like these and are obedient to a system of theology and not the new covenant writings which are the truth. Jesus is the truth and the apostolic teaching has no flaws or contradictions.
Pj
And no, we are not scholarly. For our faith stands not in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
How many times must we declare unto you that we are NOT CALVINISTS?
Ray
We have already been glorified in the eyes of the Lord, callled, justified by faith and predestined through Almighty God's foreknowledge. To foreknow means to know from all eternity all who would accept His Son and who would be obstreperous against the plan of His salvation through Jesus alone.
Ray
Pj, My major is in theology and Christian philosophy with doctorates in both. On the authority of Almighty God you might not know you are Calvinists but by religious mind bent you are in as to Total Depravity and your view on Unconditional Election. Your first to beliefs are the T & U and we might find you believe in the L I P. TULIP; Calvinism. I do believe close to Preseverence of the Saints which all orthodox Christians believe it is Eternal Security. I am not just against all Calvinists. I love and teach the truth and have the backing of my seminary professors at an accredited American seminary. I like Dr. Charles C. Ryrie at Dallas Theological Seminary have had both the Th.D. and the Ph.D. conferred on me, Summa Cum Laude. I have two seminaries in Nigeria and two in Pakistan and being a Christian Elder receive 'the double honor' [I Timothy 5:17] that the Scripture demands of laity and other learning pastors. 'I labor in the word and doctrine. ' To the Lord be all the glory and praise for allowing me to study under the brightest, Christian, spiritual men in the United States.
Sing F Lau
Ray, all the more disastrous!!! All your doctorates have taught you to HATE and DESPISE the plain teaching of Christ. SHAME SHAME SHAME!
You are men followers.... You have no regard to Jesus Christ... You "have the backing of my seminary professors at an accredited American seminary" but you openly reject the plain teaching of Scriptures!!!
Pj
"...the world by wisdom knew not God..."
Ray
My wisdom is from the Lord; my Teacher is the Holy Spirit as the Bible and the Lord demand.
Pj
Then cast aside your idolatrous accolades.
MartySS
The Bible word "foreknowledge" does not mean "knowledge in advance of an event" - and it does not mean that God foresaw any man's choice to believe. God's omniscience is sufficient to know all things past and present and future and even "would have beens," but that is not what scriptural foreknowledge means, either.
In the scripture, God often uses the term "know" to mean "an intimate love" as in "Adam knew his wife". God said to Israel, "You only have I known of all the families of the earth" in Amos 3:2 - this does not mean that God was unaware of Egypt or China, but it does mean He had a special intimacy with Israel above any other nation at that time. "Foreknow" mean "fore-love".
So those "whom he did foreknow" in Romans 8:29 means those "whom he loved before they existed." God loved a people from before the foundation of the world, and He chose them in His Son. "Whom he did foreknow" does not mean those "whom he foresaw would accept him".
He that is not "of God" does not "hear God's words" (John 8:47). Faith follows regeneration. It does not cause regeneration, not does it precede regeneration, nor is it a condition of regeneration; it is a fruit, or an effect of regeneration. Spiritual life from God must precede any spiritual action - including belief of the truth.
Sing F Lau
Until I met Ray, I have not met a man who fit Paul's description... "ever learning AND never able to come to the knowledge of the truth..." With Doctorates and Advanced Hermeneutics, he is still unable to, hermeneutically put 2 and 2 together!!!
MartyH
Wow, all those degrees! And to think, I thought being called to the ministry and studying as being led by the Spirit and learning as Jesus through the Spirit reveals the truth was sufficient to count one as a minister just as Paul learned an counted himself an Apostle of the Lord. Maybe I should quote my double majors and advanced studies degrees in order to increase the force of my arguments and defenses, though I am not sure what my B.S. degrees in Mathematics and Chemistry and my M.S. degree in Chemical/Mechanical Engineering would do to increase the force of my Spiritual Assertions.
I find it interesting that we are branded Calvinists just because it so happens that Calvin agrees with us on the T and U, but others are not Calvinists if they agree with him on the P. I assert that Old School Baptists do not agree with Calvin on the E because he asserted that God elected those to be saved and those to be damned, and Old School Baptists would not stand on this principle. We would also disagree with Calvin on the I, because Calvin would assert that the call that is irresistible is the call of the Gospel and that all those that were elected to righteousness will hear, receive, and live of the Gospel. The old School Baptist would deny such an assertion stating that Scripture teaches that all those elected to life will live eternally, but may live temporally disobedient to the call of the Gospel and that the irresistible call in question is a direct call of the Spirit to the soul resulting in the immediate and sure regeneration of the individual. Further, the Old School Baptist would disagree with Calvin on the P as we do not believe every child of God will persevere in good works, but will be preserved in Grace never to finally lost though they may temporally fall from Gospel Obedience. No Old School Baptist that I am know of would stand with Calvin on the subject of infant baptism nor would we be in favor of the physical persecution of those with whom we disagree.
So, with all force, the Old School Baptist is not a Calvinist, for how can two walk together except they be agreed. If Calvin were here today, the Old School Baptist would stand in as much opposition to the man as the Anabaptists of Calvin's day did.
I find it quite insulting to think that one must be able to read a Greek New Testament to know the truth. In spite of my training in the Greek language, I find it unfathomable to think that God would hide his truth to the greater majority of Christians by not preserving his word in common language of the day and the people that uphold it. God has given us the word in English. Have faith in God and use it wisely. Why expound upon the Greek to make those that you attempt to teach to feel inferior to the teacher and without hope of knowing the truth of God's word.
Ray
Calvin agrees with your view of God 'cherry picking' certain sinners to eternal life, but the God of the Bible is God of justice/fairness toward all of His humankind.
προεγνω phonetically sounded {proegno} is the word from which we get the English word, prognosis or to prognostication. A medical doctor for example makes a prognosis that a man has the final stages of liver cancer. The doctor is simply telling the patient what is going on in the patients' body.
On the other hand, the doctor did not plant this awful cancer in the life of his patient, he simply found it an reported the news to cure the patient's problem.
Likewise, in Romans 8:29 the Lord is reporting to us what He has found in humanity. What He sees is how many and who will have received Christ and those who have rejected Him. Jesus had nothing to do with the choosing certain sinners and rejecting other ones according to His free will and choice.
Every human being lives on a period or probation of time. If he or she hears the Gospel the Holy Spirit will call this person to either accept Jesus' proffered gift of salvation, or that person of his own free will and accord will decide that he or she does not need Christ. This alone determines who remains a sinner and who is adopted and placed into the family of the Lord God.
In verse 29 of Romans 8 the Lord does not autocratically chose people for Heaven and damnation, he leaves this to the agency of the human being. As in the Garden Adam and Eve had the choice to obey the Lord or to chose their own desires which led to eternal death.
To prognosticate means that the Lord sees the end from the beginning and predestines His people to Heaven and those who love and live in their sins inherit His Divine justice of being sent unceremoniously to the torments of Hell.
The God of the Bible, the true God, ' . . . is no respecter of persons,' and repeatedly reminds people this in Romans 2:11; II Samuel 14:14 and in Deuteronomy 10:17. One of the attributes of the Lord is He is God of justice or fairness. He is not prejudicial as to who He gives His salvation to but rather knocks at the hearts' door of all who have heard of His wonderful Divine plan of salvation. It is unmerited and is open to all human beings..
He θελει {wishes} that none would perish in Hell because of God the Father's great love in sending His Son to pay the sin debt for every human soul as documented in I Corinthians 15:3 and in I John 2:2. Sins of believers and the sinners are atoned for and all it takes for regeneration to take place is for the lost one, after his conviction of sin will be to receive Jesus as his revealed Savior. The word 'wishes' is found in I Timothy 1:4. Bible Christians believe the word wishes but errant Christians ignore the Greek rendering of this phrase. This sets in place a whole view of God that does not at all show His true character toward human beings.
Sing F Lau
The god you believe is most certainly a respecter of persons... those who have hearing abilities AND opportunities, and those who are sentient enough choose to decide to be saved get to be saved!!!
So, a man's eternal salvation is ultimately by man's opportunity AND ability to perform works! Man is the final determiner and his own saviour. That's an accursed gospel by Apostle Paul's standard!
Apostle Paul did say, "But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant."
Pj
God arbitrarily (without any outside influence upon His will) chose us to heaven. The grace of God is discriminatory!
Pj
Mr. Ray believes that Christ died for those who would live godly!
And apparently, he thinks that Christ alone is insufficient to save one sinner except that sinner perform some particular work(s)!
Ray
Pj, I don't need to hear your half truths about what I believe. My writing is more than clear. All sinners are saved by grace alone through faith in Christ alone [Ephesians 2:8-9]. Works or good works are not in play here in obtaining everlasting life [Titus 3:5].
'Not by work of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.'
You wrongly have attributed to me a belief that works play a part in salvation. After faith in Jesus works will flow out of the lives of sinners [Ephesians 2:10].
Yes, if we witness, preach . . . other of these persons will come to Christ, but not all. Witness is left for us to do and not even angels can witness to a lost soul.
Ray
I am sure that all who read here see that you have ignored again my verse in I Timothy 2:4 which says that 'God wishes all sinners to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.' The Greek and all other scholar agree with Jesus that He does not want any to be lost, and especially not sent to Hell under His Name. Sinners end up there by their own choice to ignore Jesus.
MartyH
If God is so omniscient that he knows all, then he knows exactly how much gospel influence one needs in order to be convinced to the point that he would believe and except, and yet God allows one man enough gospel influence to put him over the edge to acceptance of Christ and the next he does not. That is fair? The man that is harder to convince cannot be blamed for it is the very God that did not allow him enough evidence to be convinced that made him more difficult to convince.
I prefer, as others have said, to not base my beliefs of some preconceived, human, logical notion of fairness and justice, but rather on the plain teaching of scripture.
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
And before we go back to the earlier statement you made concerning God's election and choice of those to be saved being based on his for-seeing those that would accept and believe, let's not forget these scriptures:
Romans 9:10-13 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
God's choice is sovereign and not based on a God's knowledge of what one has or will do whether good or bad. One would have to admit that believing the Gospel and accepting Christ would be doing good and not doing so would be doing evil. With that, then Romans 9 will not allow us to assert that election is based on such. Because God's choice and election of his people was not based on whether they have done good or evil "that the purpose of God according ot election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.
Further, we have this scripture:
Psalms 14:2-3 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Apart from the divine and sovereign regeneration (life before faith), there is none that do good, no not one and there is none that seek God. You call upon the dead to seek God and yet God says there is none that do so. See, I agree that God looked down through time and judged all men, but when he did so, he did not, as you assert, find those that would accept and those that would not, but rather found that there was none that would seek or do any good. What he found when he looked down through time is a human race that had been so infected by sin that the infection and completely and utterly killed it's host. Therefore, for any to be saved, God had to act by divine decree in such a way that if any were to be saved it would not be of him the willeth (one who chooses to be saved) nor of him that runneth (one that does something to be saved, but it would be of him that showeth mercy (which is God Himself.) (Rom 9:16)
I find it offensive to believe that God sent his Son to die for the offenses of all men for that will make God unjust. In doing so, God will exact payment for the sins of some twice. He took that payment once on the cross, and then for those that do not accept that their debt was paid, he will exact that payment again upon the death of that sinner. What would you think of a creditor that would demand payment twice for the same debt. I would consider them unjust. I will have nothing of a God that is so unjust that when he is already paid will demand payment again. However, Jesus can to save "His" people from their sins. (Matthew 1:21) Necessarily, Jesus only died for the sins of those that will experience the eternal joys of a heavenly home. To believe that hell will be filled with those for whom Jesus died is to believe that the sins of those will be paid twice and that Jesus' payment was insufficient. I will have neither.
Just because we an Calvin may agree on a few points, does not make us Calvinists, as there were many in history (the Waldensians and other Anabaptists) that had held to God's sovereign choice in election, His immediate regeneration without the use of the Gospel, and the limitation of the atonement to the elect long before Calvin came to that conclusion. We should not be identified as Calvinists, but rather Calvin should be identified with us, and might justly have been so if he had not also harbored a great number or heresies that so separated him from the lovers of truth and righteousness that he chose rather to persecute them. Why would one choose to name those whom Calvin persecuted as Calvinists. I am so far from Calvin that I would not accept the baptisms he or his followers conducted, nor would I accept him into the communion of the church that I pastor lest he first repent of his heretical errors.
With all due respect, you are not only caught up in great spiritual error, but you are also arrogant in your supposition that all who believe in election as Old School Baptists do are Calvinists. This is no more true than believing that every person who sneezes has a cold or everyone that has a rash has the measles.
Ray
Once the plan of salvation is left with sinners and they know that they have to be forgiven of their sins, they are all responsible to receive Christ. The Holy Spirit works equally on each soul and everyone has the opportuniity to invite Jesus into their lives. There will is pivotal and determines their destiny for either Heaven or sadly for the tormenting fires of Hell. This is the plan of holy Scripture.
We will lose rewards in Heaven or will be accorded a lower position than others, if we ignore and do not witness for Jesus power to save souls.
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| Get a buffalo and plough up the fallow ground and grow something for your brain!!! |
Sing F Lau
Ray actually believes in a PATHETIC and impotent god... because Ray believe that his little pathetic god "wishes all sinners to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth".... and poooooooor and tragic, his god's wishes cannot be fulfilled... because man's will is stronger and nullified his god's sincere and genuine wish!!!
Ray, your god is most pathetic and impotent of all. Ray, you most certainly believe a weak and impotent tribal god. You probably believe a heathen god...
The God I believe declared in this wise... "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." Rom 9:15
MartyH
Oh, you complain as one wrongly accuses you of a belief and yet you persist in calling Old School Baptists Calvinists and thus attributing to us a host of heretical beliefs that we will not have. Pot, meet Kettle!
MartyH
"Once the plan of salvation is left with sinners and they know that they have to be forgiven of their sins, they are all responsible to receive Christ. The Holy Spirit works equally on each soul and everyone has the opportuniity to invite Jesus into their lives. There will is pivotal and determines their destiny for either Heaven or sadly for the tormenting fires of Hell. This is the plan of holy Scripture."
Then in your own words, Salvation is not of the Lord, but of the man that makes the right choice.
If God knows how much "work of the Spirit" it will take to bring a man to invite Christ into his soul and he does enough for one and not enough for the next, then how does this not make God a respector of persons? For God did not make men with equal wills to resist.
Your doctrine of equal chance for all men ended in the Garden, my brother. We all had our chance there and failed. And as a result, we all have been convicted. If any is to saved, it will be because God intervenes on our behalf and personally saves us.
Pj
Sinners are NOT saved by grace of God through their faith in Christ. We are saved by the grace OF God through the faith OF Christ!
Mr. Ray basically says that God did just as much for those in heaven as for those in hell. But plain Scripture dictates otherwise! "...it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."
Ray
Go study, Pj, Christ does not need faith; He is the object of our faith. Almighty God never oversteps our choice to receive or to reject this wonderful relationship to Him. He is not a spiritual Dictator forcing sinners into His alleged plan.
Man receives Christ. Only then does Jesus give His power and salvation for sinners to become the sons and daughters of the living God. [John 1:12]. He gives the believer the will so that sinner does not have to 'run' nor work for his salvation. It is the Lord who then looks on us with mercy and forgiveness.
Don't perpetuate a false Gospel. Stay with correct exegesis and hermaneutically correct spiritual laws.
MartyH
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Scripture would seem to disagree. On many occasions it calls God or The Lord faithful. I would encourage you to study as well, my brother.
Steve
Ray: "My wisdom is from the Lord; my Teacher is the Holy Spirit as the Bible and the Lord demand."
If your wisdom is from the Lord, you would not be contradicting, misunderstanding or misinterpreting the Scriptures!
Steve
@ Ray: "My writing is more than clear. All sinners are saved by grace alone through faith in Christ alone [Ephesians 2:8-9]. "
Here's what Eph 2:8-9 says: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
You've added the words "in Christ alone" ... you've added your own words to the Scriptures!! That's LYING!!
Steve
Ray - "My major is in theology and Christian philosophy with doctorates in both. On the authority of Almighty God you might not know you are Calvinists but by religious mind bent you are in as to Total Depravity and your view on Unconditional Election. Your first to beliefs are the T & U and we might find you believe in the L I P. TULIP; Calvinism. I do believe close to Preseverence of the Saints which all orthodox Christians believe it is Eternal Security. I am not just against all Calvinists. I love and teach the truth and have the backing of my seminary professors at an accredited American seminary. I like Dr. Charles C. Ryrie at Dallas Theological Seminary have had both the Th.D. and the Ph.D. conferred on me, Summa Cum Laude. I have two seminaries in Nigeria and two in Pakistan and being a Christian Elder receive 'the double honor' [I Timothy 5:17] that the Scripture demands of laity and other learning pastors. 'I labor in the word and doctrine. ' To the Lord be all the glory and praise for allowing me to study under the brightest, Christian, spiritual men in the United States."
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You sound very insecure and unsure about yourself! And you dare quote 1 Tim 5:17??
Ray
I added words to explain the meaning to you students of the Word. I know the meaning.
MartyH
Upon what scriptural basis did you add those words?
Ray
Have you ever heard of a Biblical Commentary? Don't insult your intelligence Mr. Hoskins.
My grandfather on my mothers's side of the lineage is named Mr. Haskins.
MartyH
I asked a simple question. I asked what scripture you use to support that assertion and you refer me to some other mans writings other than scripture itself. If you can't support it from the word of God yourself, then why make the assertion? You sir are showing yourself to be very arrogant. Your response to me seems strange. Why? Are you afraid to support such from the word itself? You quote all your degrees and qualifications and yet when asked a simple question, rather than answer, you refer me to some commentary. I am certainly glad that Philip did not deal with Eunich with such an answer.
If you are comfortable with your beliefs in that you can defend them by running to your commentaries and the writings of others, I will leave you with them and stand on the Word of God! Here I stand, and here, by the grace of God, I hope to die. I pray we will both meet on the other side, where we both will have a more complete understanding. Until then, I bid you goodbye, my brother, for this is degenerating to debate rather than scriptural reasoning. Since you cannot and will not stick solely to scripture, I cannot continue.
And sir, I have heard of a commentary. I own multiple, the best of which I would count to be John Gill (an Old School Baptist, if I understand him). Though, even with him, I do not always agree. I do not rely on commentaries to teach me the word. I read them for interest and guidance at times, but I only accept what others teach if I find it harmonious with scripture. I would suggest you do the same, it is the only safe course. There is safety in the infallible word, and no commentary is infallible.
Oh, my father was Mr. Hoskins, along with his father, and his father, etc.
Ray
Dr. Paul Enns, Th.D. made this statement, "'Salvation by grace through faith and not works is an important doctrine in evangelicalism [Ephesians 2:8-9]. Through faith alone, the believer is declared righteous [Romans 5:1] and reconciled to God {II Corinthians 5:19]. Because the name evangelical implies 'good news', evangelicals believe strongly in evangelism, the necessity of telling the message of salvation by grace through faith [Matthew 28:18-20; Luke 24:47; Acts 1:8]. THE MOODY HANDBOOK OF THEOLOGY, Moody Press, p. 613.
Ray
'Without faith it is impossible to please Him, for He who comes to God must believe that he is, and He is the rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.' [Hebrews 11:6].
All grace is obtained by the faith of the sinner. Grace comes from the Lord; faith is man's confidence in God and His saving grace. Grace is the gift of God received by genuine faith in the Son. [I John 5:13].
Ray
Calvinists hate these two verses quoted above. Salvation by faith in Jesus Christ [Galatians 3:36].
'For you are all the children of God by faith in Jesus Christ.'
Praise be to the Lord!! He is not the 'pick and choose' Savior. He does not choose some for His elect to Heaven nor does He turn sinners into Hell by His choice. The free will and agency of humankind determines the receiption of the Son or the rejection of Him. [Mark 16:16].
Sing F Lau
Ray, I'm not a Calvinisist, but I do HATE the way Eph 2:8-9 has been PERVERTED and TWISTED by both you a thorough Arminian as well as the calvinists. In fact both you and the calvinists are both agreed that man's fact is spoken of in Eph 2:8-9. BOTH Arminians like you and other calvinists whom you hate are BOTH deceived thinkng that the faith spoken of Eph 2:8-9 is the faith of sinners like you and the calvinists whom you hate so much.
You have also perverted and twisted Gal 3:36, like you also do with John 1:12.
Sing F Lau
Ray @ "Dr. Paul Enns, Th.D. made this statement.
'Salvation by grace through faith and not works is an important doctrine in evangelicalism [Ephesians 2:8-9]. "
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If salvation is by grace, then it CANNOT be through YOUR faith. If that be so, then salvation is not longer by grace as your work is involved; it is a salvation through your WORKS!
Jesus Christ himself declared that believing is a work!!!
John 6 28 ¶ Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Of course, you will be impudent enough to reject and contradict Christ's own words AGAIN!!!
Therefore the Donkey Theologian (Th D)
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| A dish of mosquito livers and housefly hearts with plenty of garlic and turmeric and ginger would be able to cure brain deadness! |
Ray
Grace is God's unmerited favor toward sinners; faith is the sinners response to the Father's love [John 3:16. 'For God so loved . . . '
Works are things that man tries to do to place and placate the Lord's wrath. Faith is a man or woman's reaching out to God to receive His promised gift of eternal salvation.
If you are a pastor your words betray your lofty position in serving Christ our Lord. You and your 'unheard of denomination in the United States' is much like the Primative Baptists who I never knew about until a few years ago. They suggest your presuppositions and follow the systematic theology of the Catholic, John Calvin.
Sing F Lau
Grace is God's unmerited favor toward sinners; faith is the sinners response to the Father's love
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Ray, let's see whether you have a sound mind, or a brainy but unthinking moron......
You are probably mumbling things you don't quite understand!
Grace is God's unmerited favor toward sinners... my triple hearty amen to that statement.
Let me ask you.
What is accomplished when God show His grace toward sinners?
What is the spiritual state of sinners when God shows His unmerited favor to them?
The answer is this: God's unmerited favor towards sinners, who are spiritually dead in their trespasses and sins, turn them in sons of God through the divine act of regeneration.
God's unmerited favor toward sinners dead in their trespasses and sins turned them into living sons of God.... these living sons of God is capable of responding to the Father's love.
The term Father necessarily implies His divine act of FATHERING / BEGETTING / REGENERATING... He cannot possibly be termed Father unless he has begotten sons and daughters theough His divine act of begetting. Your own usage of the term Father CONDEMNS your vehement denial of God's PRIOR act of regenerating sinners dead in their trespasses and sins.
If faith is INDEED the sinners response to the Father's love... then God's unmerited favor toward the sinners necessarily PRECEDE their response... the response is necessarily the effect. Salvation is bestowed first, enable the response of faith a possibility.
If it is indeed UNMERITED favor, faith is NOT the instrument of obtaining salvation; faith is the means to EVIDENCE/MANIFEST the salvation already bestowed by grace...
Ray, your own words will condemn your vehement denial of God's free grace.
You may mouth and foam 'grace alone' but everything you have written thus far has repudiated grace! And that's on account of your having doctorates, and great theologians as your teachers!!!
Sing F Lau
Works are things that man tries to do to place and placate the Lord's wrath. Faith is a man or woman's reaching out to God to receive His promised gift of eternal salvation.
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So, you are really so impudent to repudiate Christ's very own word is believing in Him is a WORK that God requires of His people???
John 6:28 ¶ Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
I fear that Jesus Christ is not your teacher at all!!!
Sing F Lau
O yes, I'm a pastor teacher... and I tell others who claim to be teachers (especially seminary teachers) BUT who openly deny and repudiate Christ's plain statement... they are donkeys and mules, and not teachers... Scriptures called them worse names... blind leading the blind, wolves in sheep clothing, dogs, etc.
Ray
Churches send their God called women and men to receive training at seminaries where denominations have selected scholars to teach ministers in training. These men have been taught by the Holy Spirit and many have learned Greek and Hebrew to improve their skills at exegeting Scripture.
They do not send God called men and women to someone like you who only know the presupposition of Calvin's theology and a tad of sarcasm toward anyone who thinks differently than you believe.
If faith is not man's response to God's offer of salvation and is in theory attached to grace and given as a gift, it makes sinners into automatons. The LORD does not make people into mechanical beings controlled by Almighty God. Faith is a persons' response to God's proffered gift of salvation.
Calvinism's theory of a sinner being as a dead man toward God is a lie from demons. What saith the Scripture?
Jeremiah 29: 13 'Then shall you call on me, and you will go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. And you shall seek me , and find me, when you shall search for Me with all your heart.'
Steve
Ray "I added words to explain the meaning to you students of the Word. I know the meaning."
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Your adding of words have perverted the gospel! Aren't you "preaching" another gospel?? Is this what you "preach" in your seminaries in Nigeria and Pakistan?? And what did Paul say about those who preach another gospel??
Sing F Lau
Ray, you are an incorrigible man.
You want to pick a fight with Calvin who is not around... and you are despicable to lumping me with calvin when i have a whole lot of difficulty with Calvin and a system name after him.
I really believe you are just a effeminate COWARD, unwilling to accept AS WELL AS unable to refute the teaching of Christ, and so take the cowardly route to denounce what Christ actually said as calvinism!!! May Christ forgive your impudence of denouncing and dismissing Christ's teaching as Calvinism.
You GLORY and BOAST in this, "Churches send their God called women and men to receive training at seminaries where denominations have selected scholars to teach ministers in training. These men have been taught by the Holy Spirit and many have learned Greek and Hebrew to improve their skills at exegeting Scripture. "
Apostle Paul commanded Pastor Timothy thus about training ministers, "And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also."
Such "cemeteries" that you glory in DO NOT even have apostolic mandate... which is why they churn out brain dead men like you!!! I said before that you cant even sum 2 +2 exegetically despite your double Advanced Hismanewticks!!!
You are completely blind exegetically if you think Jer 29:13 is addressed to sinners dead in trespasses and sins!!! Those words are addressed by the LORD, the covenant God of Israel to His people that were exiled to Babylon! Didn't your double Advanced Hismanneuticks teach you about CONTEXT!!!
You have disgraced the great American Cemeteries that awarded you your doctorates!!!
Steve
@Ray "Churches send their God called women and men to receive training at seminaries where denominations have selected scholars to teach ministers in training"
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"... selected scholars ..." -- if only you're able to think and understand all that you've written!!
It might be profitable for you to go through your postings and judge for yourself if you're indeed worldly ... of a carnal mind ... even deluded??
Ray
Uneducated people often are jealous of we who have dedicated our lives to study the Word. Neither of you are in my league. You are C League and need all of ancient, Catholicism's ideas purged from your preaching. Refried Catholic thinking that drained into Calvin's brain and oused out of his Calvin's Institutes into your errant teaching. Someone taught you garbage theology but don't blame the Holy Spirit for your belief that Jesus destines people toi eternal Hell.
What makes things so serious is this Deterministic theology is being tauted as if it were the way our LORD thinks and acts toward human, sinful beings. I believe you have infiltrated into your church as a subversive to the Holy Gospel either knowingly or unwittingly.
'Not everyone who says to Me, LORD, LORD shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven . . .' [Matthew 7:21].
WIKIPEDIA - 'John Calvin regularly preached sermons throughout the week in Geneva. Calvin was influenced by the Augustinian tradition, which led him to expound the doctrine of predestination and the absolute sovereignty of God in salvation of the human soul from death and eternal damnation.'
Sing F Lau
Ray, great and learned, proud and boastful men like you OPENLY repudiate the plain words of Jesus Christ... You preached a work based gospel... not the gospel of Christ who did everything to save His own people, those whom the Father gave to Him.
You are just using Calvin and the RCC as a smokescreen to your HATRED and REJECTION of the gospel of Christ.
So there is an unbridgeable gulf between your claim and Christ's teaching.
Steve
Ray: Your words are those of a person who's full of pride, extremely puffed up and highminded. Much more can be said ... but I'll leave it for now ...
Conclusion is, you believe you save yourself and presumably, that is what you tell others (including those in your seminaries), that they can save themselves!!
You've quoted and quoted Scriptures to support your belief but those verses that you've quoted do not support your position. Obviously, you've misinterpreted the Scriptures. Do all those super-duper seminary training, qualifications ... cause a person to go against the words of Jesus Christ? In your case, it sure did!
Ray
I am saved by Jesus' grace which is God's unmerited favor toward all human beings.
Faith is not God's gift to us because that would make Hebrews 11:6 useless.
' . . . he who comes to God must believe that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him'
God seeks man; man seeks the Lord!
'Faith comes by decree and predestination and hearing by the Word of God.' or does God say,
'So then faith comes by hear and hearing by the Word of God.' [Romans 10:17].
Ray, unless you have REPENTED of your errors, you have been saying all along that it is your actions - like hearing, believing, responding - that secured for you your salvation from God.
It is your own actions that secured for you the salvation... If you are indeed saved by Jesus' grace, then it is Him giving you eternal life when you were spiritually dead. But you deny and repudiate that fact of Christ's work!!! You insist that you works of hearing and believing first, then Jesus gives you eternal life!!!
God's unmerited favour in Jesus Christ is not towards all human beings, but toward those whom God has given to Jesus Christ to redeem. Jesus Himself said so, but Jesus' words are of no value to you. You are HATER of Christ's own word.
John 6... Christ said
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Sing F Lau
"So then faith cometh by hearing..."
=====
Ray, like very many others, you would read these words to mean "so then eternal life cometh by hearing..." That's what you have been insisting ALL ALONG in this long exchanges!
You would insist that the spiritually dead can hear and believe to get eternal life!
Apostle Paul said that preaching is necessary because God's children (i.e. those already regenerated) needed to hear the truth in order to be CONVERTED to the truth of their salvation by God's free grace in Christ Jesus. Ray, you have deny the whole theology of Apostle Paul by twisting his words.
Rom 10:14-15: Apostle Paul declares the necessity of preaching... so that God's children may hear and know and believe the truth of their salvation... NOT the DEAD will hear and have eternal life, as you imagined!!!
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Robert
I wanted to like 50 times but they only allow one Thanks Sing!!
Cantoro
Hmm what Ray is saying has been what i hv been fed w by my uncle theologians
Ray
Galatians 3:22-29 are words from the Almighty God Who is telling your hyper-Calvinist friends on this venue that ' . . . the promise is given to those who believe' and not those who are Divinely chosen for Heaven and barred out of their said place and sent to retribution.
Secondly, the Law was given to show us our sins and need of Christ. The Holy Spirit is a strict schoolmaster who draws us to Christ that we might be partakers of His grace. And how do sinners find Jesus? 'We are all the children of God by FAITH in Jesus Christ.'
Jesus does not fix the lottery in Heaven so that some are chosen for eternal destruction. If this were true we would have to delete one of the attributes of God which is Christ's Divine Justice which will never happen nor will He bow in agreement with your heterodoxy and evil interpretation of Holy Scripture.
Unconditional Election is Protestism is as evil as Marian theology which declares that Mary is the New Ark of the Covenant. I would not want to be in your 'boots' when I stand before the Almighty Lord who paid the sin debt for all of humankind [I John 2:2].
'He is the propitiation for our sins and not for our only, but ALSO for the sins of the whole world.'
This propitiation is for the elect and the non-elect so sinners will be without excuse.
Sing F Lau
Ray, you should be greatly comforted... Cantoro's great uncle theologians teach him the things you have been saying.
The thumbs up is just a little act of helping what a brother wanted to do.
You are the one FULL of ego... boasting and parading your double Advanced Hermeneutics, double Doctorates from renowned American Theological Cemeteries, and endorsement from great American Theologians!
Apostle Paul warned that in perilous times men shall be boasters and haughty!!!
With your double Advanced Hisyouoldticks (in contrast to Her-me-neu-tics)
First, those who believe are those who have been given eternal life. And eternal life is given to those who are Christ's sheep. Christ's sheep are those who God the Father has chosen out of the fallen race and Adam and given to Christ. (All these truth are found in John's gospel.)
- "Except a man is born again, he cannot..." You insist otherwise.
- "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand"
- "My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand."
It is a great pity, you just CAN'T get one simple thing straight... which is why I said your time in the seminaries has made you brain dead!!!
Gal 3:22-29 is saying this: Paul is dealing with Gentiles believers who having been told lies by the Judaizers, have FOOLISHLY embraced the old covenant law - the ceremonial laws that were POINTING to the promised Christ.
Here is the Scriptures:
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
"We were kept under the law..." we refers to God's children that were kept under the old covenant ceremonial law..." The ceremonial laws were DIRECTING God's children to the coming Christ. When Christ has come, those ceremonial laws have served their purposed and were abolished...
BUT the foolish bewitched Galatians, having been DECEIVED and seduced by the Judaizers, were returning to that which has been ABOLISHED with the coming of Christ!
You are brain dead, Ray! :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
Sing F Lau
Hmm what Ray is saying has been what i hv been fed w by my uncle theologians
========
Cantoro, supposing you are serious in what you said above, and not fooling around... this is the MOST HILARIOUS, and MOST PATHETIC situation I have ever come across...
Ray is a hater of Calvin and the theological system that is associated with him... or anything which he does not agree with Christ, he writes it off as bloodied by Calvin!
But you are a devoted lover of John Calvin, and a devoted student of your calvinistic uncle theologians.
And by your own confession, what Ray is saying is what you have been FED with by your Calvinistic uncle theologians.
Cantoro... go figure! Seminaries destroy capabilities of rightly dividing the word of truth... they brainwashed their students... only interested to mold the students into their doctrinal position, thus crippling them for life. Ray is a good example!
Ray
{WIKIPEDIA and John Calvin}
'Calvin was a tireless polemic and apologetic writer who generated much controversy. He also exchanged cordial and supportive letters with many reformers, including Philipp Melanchthon and Heinrich Bullinger. In addition to the Institutes, he wrote commentaries on most books of the Bible, as well as theological treatises and confessional documents. He regularly preached sermons throughout the week in Geneva. Calvin was influenced by the Augustinian tradition, which led him to expound the doctrine of predestination and the absolute sovereignty of God in salvation of the human soul from death and eternal damnation.'
{taken from St. Augustine and WIKIPEDIA}
'Many Protestants, especially Calvinists, consider him to be one of the theological fathers of the Protestant Reformation due to his teachings on salvation and divine grace. In the Eastern Orthodox Church, he is also considered a saint, his feast day being celebrated on 15 June.[11] He carries the additional title of Blessed among the Orthodox, either as "Blessed Augustine" or "St. Augustine the Blessed."[12] (end quote)
John Calvin was a lawyer and never a Roman Catholic priest but he was deeply involved in the Protestant Reformation and started a religious community in Geneva, Switzerland. He strictly controlled the people with his Augustinian-Calvinism. His own country of France was probably about 99% Roman Catholic. His father was paid by the Roman Catholic Church.
Sing F Lau
Ray, we are not interested with Calvin here.
Please don't litter this place with his name or his idea.
Please don't hide your HATRED of Christ's word with your tirade against Calvin.
I have no love for Calvin. If you hate him, do your ranting somewhere else!
I hope you understand.
 | |
| The farmers will tell you that the winds is sovereign, acts completely independently of them. Go and ask them. |
Ray
Ranting? No Pastor Lau was WIKIPEDIA ranting. No.
I love every Christian but we cannot allow false doctrines to thriive in His church. Part of my ministry is to be an apologist for evangelical, orthodox Christianity. In this case I showed each of you the tie between Roman Catholic ancient theology and your attempts at exegesis.
God remains sovereign while allowing for the free agency of human beings. You Pastor Lau are part of the plan as you preach to lost souls and to the flock He has committed to your watchcare. Feeding your sheep is a wonderful responsibility.
Sing F Lau
Ray, you are ranting, wikipedia doesn't! You are shameless!
This place is not for you to litter your ranting against Calvin.
You should do it at a appropriate place if you need to release your hatred of him!
This place is for us to study Scriptures.
I say again, you are just hiding your hatred against Christ's teaching by hiding behind your hated of Calvin. That's all you are doing. Your tirade against Calvin doesn't validate your errors because your errors repudiate and deny Christ plain teaching.
Feeding God's flock is indeed a wonderful responsibility! That's my calling. Feeding has to do the the living... God's children, those whom God has already regenerated from the dead!!!
It seems your boastful calling is to help God bring the dead sinner to life through your preaching!
There is a world of difference... and the blind cannot see the difference.
Sing F Lau
Christ recommissioned the regathered apostles to FEED... FEED... FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED His lambs and sheep. Feeding presupposes there are lives to be feed. Feeding has to do with the LIVING...
So many imagine that they are sent out with the gospel food in order to bring the DEAD to life!
What delusion! What perversion of Christ's commission!
"O LORD, I pray thee, open Thou his eyes, that he may see."
Ray
Feeding sheep refers to nurturing Christians in their life of faith.
Sinners will reject spiritual food but we have to leave a witness as to God's ability to forgive their sins.
Sing F Lau
Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
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1. "Teach" : only God's children are capable of being taught the truth of their salvation by God's free grace in Jesus Christ through the ministry of these apostles.
- The Lord Jesus sent out His apostles NOT to teach the dead... but to teach those whom he has given eternal life. Sheep need to be instructed the truth of their redemption by God's free grace in Christ Jesus. Only such can be converted to the truth of the gospel.
2. "All nations" : all ethnic groups, NOT just the Jews! These apostles were very slow to learn this truth. Their racial prejudice was hard to break down. See the Lord's dealing with Apostle Peter in Acts 10.
- (Apostle Paul was specially commissioned to be THE apostle to the Gentiles.
3. "Baptizing them" : a public act of confessing Christ, and gathering the converts into NT churches.
Robert
A grown up Arminian is as hard to convert as a mature man never taught by his father, It is as simple as Christ died for someone and all for whom He died are safe from eternal condemnation, So if He died for all then all are dead in Him and risen with Him, only conclusion no hell for man. I am so glad some one taught me the truth of redemption in Christ without all the contradictions, Ray the word must be rightly divided, Consider what I say, you may be affarid to believe the wrong thing , a symptom your teaching. Knowledge is not eternal salvation, but is only temporal or in time, eternal salvation came by Jesus Christ.
Sing F Lau
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That's your imagination.
Christ said, "Feed... Feed... FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED My sheep... my lambs."
Nothing of the figment of your imagination.
Spiritual food IS NEVER offered to the dead. Only the STUPID [lacking common sense!]people offer food to the dead - superstitious Chinese does that very often... offering roast pork (real one, which they eat it themselves later!!!) and iPad5 (paper ones to be burned) to the dead!!!
Many preachers are no less stupid in offering spiritual food to the dead!!!
"O LORD, I pray thee, open Thou his eyes, that he may see."
Ray
If the sinner is so dead that he cannot understand salvation then Jesus should have not said his words in Mark 16:15.
'Go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel to EVERY creature. The Biblical Greek says, ' . . . to preach to all the creation.
The salvation of the lost pivots on 'believing' as Jesus said in Mark 16:16. The believer obtains everlasting life and those who reject or neglect Jesus remain in their sins and at death depart to enter Hell.
There is no hint of an all deterministic God who makes choices for all of us.
Sing F Lau
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There is need to impress me with your Greek. It does not shed any light on the discussion.
You got it all wrong, Ray!
Christ did say that sinners are so DEAD that he CANNOT understand. You just hate His truthful word... "Except a man be born again, he CANNOT..." You hate that simple statement of fact, because it exposes your cherished and pet lies that sinner dead in sin CAN!!!
Jesus Christ said these grand words,
"Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature"
BECAUSE He has His LIVING sheep, in all the world and among every creature, that need to be called out and gather into the NT churches. Jesus gave them eternal life, and those sheep need to be found and gathered into the NT church.
You are back to the STUPID and NONSENSICAL idea again that a believer obtains everlasting life... assuming that a sinner without everlasting life CAN believe in order to get eternal life. You reject and repudiate Christ's plain statement, "Except a man be born again, he cannot..."
You are a HATER of Christ's own word.
It is ONLY a child of God, one whom God HAS SAVED by His free grace, who can believe, and in believing he is saved himself from lies and superstition, he experiences forgiveness and assurance and peace, fellowship with God.
"O LORD, I pray thee, open Thou his eyes, that he may see."
Ray
WIKIPEDIA: 'Calvin was a tireless polemic and apologetic writer who generated much controversy. He also exchanged cordial and supportive letters with many reformers, including Philipp Melanchthon and Heinrich Bullinger. In addition to the Institutes, he wrote commentaries on most books of the Bible, as well as theological treatises and confessional documents. He regularly preached sermons throughout the week in Geneva. Calvin was influenced by the Augustinian tradition, which led him to expound the doctrine of predestination and the absolute sovereignty of God in salvation of the human soul from death and eternal damnation.
Sing F Lau
Did Christ learn His teaching from Calvin or what?
If what Calvin taught happen to be what Christ had taught, then why display such STUPID antics to hide your REAL HATRED for Christ's truth?????
Why don't you deal with the plain Scriptures?
Are you fearful of Scriptures because it exposes and condemns your lies, and hatred for Christ's teaching?
"O LORD, I pray thee, open Thou his eyes, that he may see."
Hulan
Incidentally, Calvin was SINCERE, but he was sincerely wrong.
Ray
Man is so dead in sins that he or she cannot ask Jesus into his or her heart/soul. The Book of Lamentations 3:25 does not agree with this early Catholic/Calvinistic machination.
'The LORD is good to those who wait for Him, to the soul who seeks Him.'
Judeo-Christian scholars believe the Prophet Jeremiah wrote this Book of Lamentations.
Sing F Lau
Ray, who are those who wait for the LORD?
Have you ever had a dead man waiting for you?
Have you ever had a dead soul seeking for you?
So, if someone does wait and seek for you, would you conclude that the DEAD could wait and seek, or will you conclude that the waiting and seeking one must be ALIVE??? But you have persistently and perversely concluded with the nonsensical and irrational! I hope you now know why I say you are BRAIN DEAD despite your double Advanced Hermeneutics and double Doctorates from renowned American Cemeteries!!!
Who was Jeremiah addressing in the Book of Lamentation?
To those dead pagans, or the LORD's BACK-SLIDEN children among the Israelites?
For whom was Jeremiah lamenting?
No, it is you twisting Lam 3:25. You are just hiding under the skirts of Judeo-Christian scholars!!!
The LORD is good to His repentant CHILDREN!
Ray
You are obsessed with your 'dead man theory.' It's an old Calvinistic erroneous ploy.
Sinners have a conscience and they understand the Gospel of salvation once they hear it. They are all made in the image of the Lord God. The Spirit of God works on sinners but does not enter until they receive Christ.
'The Lord is good . . . . to those who seek Him.'
If they could not seek Him --He would not have said this through His prophet.
Sing F Lau
Oh, those spiritually dead in sin have conscience indeed...they feel condemned each time they sin; they are still in the image of God... all their faculties are functioning. Without the image of God they would have turned into BRUTE BEASTS.
Yes, the Scriptures declares that SUCH sinners, fallen men by nature is ACTIVELY in ENMITY against God, children of disobedience... and none SEEKS for God. Jesus Himself said, except such be born again, such is INCAPABLE of seeing the kingdom of God not enter it.
"THERE IS NONE THAT SEEKETH AFTER GOD" - no sinner dead in sin seeks after God. In fact he is in great enmity against God. Those that are called to seek after God are already regenerated by God's free grace, and are God's children. HIS CHILDREN could seek Him, and He exhorts them to seek Him. You just hate this simple truth... you prefer instead to insist that it is sinners in their DEADNESS can seek God.
You are REALLY brain dead!!!
You REJECT and REPUDIATE Jesus' very own words that "EXCEPT a man be born again, he CANNOT..." You are a HATER of Christ's teaching. You have sinned GREATLY by attributing Christ's own teaching to that of a dead and gone Genevan!
May the Lord Jesus Christ forgive your impudence and wickedness!!!
"O LORD, I pray thee, open Thou his eyes, that he may see."
Ray
Nicodemus sought the Lord coming by night. Jesus said you have to receive me to be 'born again,' as noted in John 1:12. To be born again it is always to those who ' . . . receive Him' that He gives the authority to become the sons of God.' It is never God who regenerates first and then gives faith in the hearts of His people.
The ministry of the Holy Spirit is to draw sinners to Christ. [John 3:18].
Sing F Lau
Ray, you are all messed up!!!
You insist that God first gives gift to the dead, then the dead must utilize that gift, and in response to the dead utilizing the gift God regenerates the dead!
Let me tell you, only a brain dead man can reason like that! And you reason like that because you HATE Christ's words!
Nicodemus gives every indication that he is already born again... His coming to seek the Lord is positive proof of that. "THERE IS NONE THAT SEEKETH AFTER GOD" - no sinner dead in sin seeks after God.
The FIRST ministry of the Spirit to a sinner dead in trespasses and sin is to REGENERATE him.
Sing F Lau
You raised John 1:12-13. Here it is. Read it and dispute it if you wish!
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
There are a few distinct verb actions in these two verses
- "received him"
- "to them GAVE he..."
- "them that believe" (verbal noun, the believing ones)
- "were born..."
The Scriptures is very clear that by nature the elect of God are dead in trespasses and sins. They too were conceived and born in sin, like the rest of the Adam's race.
What is the greatest and immediate need of those dead in trespasses and sins? They need to be brought to spiritual life. And that is by the direct and immediate divine act of regeneration by the Spirit of God, the new birth from above, born of God, given eternal life by Christ.
The BLIND teachers would say otherwise. Preach to the spiritually dead, exhort and demand them to perform some spiritual activities, plead and cajole them to respond to the great offer of eternal life...
They don't really believe the spiritual deadness of sinners.
They don't really believe when Christ repeated, "Except a man be born again, he CANNOT..." They are convinced those dead in trespasses and sins CAN... Shameless liars, and blind!
So, new birth must precede any spiritual acts. The gift of spiritual life must precede all the spiritual activities mentioned. The gift of spiritual life in the new birth ENABLES the performance of spiritual activities like believing and receiving. Life precedes the activities of that life... so simple yet great 'theologians' curse and reject that obvious fact as a lie.
Believing and receiving Jesus as the Christ of God secures for them the power from God, i.e. the divine right to call themselves the sons of God. Believing in Jesus Christ give them the BRAGGING RIGHT - the POWER to claim that they are the children of God. Power speaks of authority and right. Receiving Jesus as Christ bestows them such power; it evidences that they have been born of God AND have the power to claim such!
So, the order of those distinct action verbs in John 1:12-13 is this:
Were born of God ----> them that believe/received him ---> God gave them the POWER...
Please note that to be BORN of God and to be given power to become children of God are COMPLETELY different and distinct matters. But careless students of God's word DON'T know how to rightly divide them!
