Things New and Old

Ancient truths revealed in the Scriptures are often forgotten, disbelieved or distorted, and therefore lost in the passage of time. Such ancient truths when rediscovered and relearned are 'new' additions to the treasury of ancient truths.

Christ showed many new things to the disciples, things prophesied by the prophets of old but hijacked and perverted by the elders and their traditions, but which Christ reclaimed and returned to His people.

Many things taught by the Apostles of Christ have been perverted or substituted over the centuries. Such fundamental doctrines like salvation by grace and justification have been hijacked and perverted and repudiated by sincere Christians. These doctrines need to be reclaimed and restored to God's people.

There are things both new and old here. "Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things"
2Ti 2:7.

Wednesday, January 9, 2013

Perfect Harmony Between the Decretive and the Preceptive Will of God

New school Calvinists put up signs like this!!!


Can you accept this proposition as a self-evident truth:
The decretive will of God and the preceptive will of the SAME God, though distinct and separate, are perfectly consistent and harmonious, without any inconsistency or contradiction between them? But many believe in a schizophrenic god of their own imaginations!

1. IF the decretive will of God and the preceptive will of the SAME God, though distinct and separate, are perfectly consistent and harmonious, without any inconsistency or contradiction between them... THEN why do the new school Calvinists (e.g. reformed baptists):- IGNORE the decretive will, and believe and act contrary to God's decretive will.

God has decreed eternal redemption for a very specific and particular people, and Christ Jesus accomplished that redemption for the same particular and specific people, and the Holy Spirit applies that same eternal redemption to individuals personally of that exact same people. There is a perfect harmony of purpose among the three Persons of the Triune God.

God's preceptive will is consistent with his decretive will. He sends forth preachers to herald the gospel to the recipients of that eternal redemption, i.e. God's children (those elect whom God has effectually called out of their native state of sin and death to that state of to grace and salvation) that they may know the glorious things that God has done for them by His free and sovereign grace in Jesus Christ, and to gather them into NT churches.

THEN... THEN... pretend that the gospel call to believe in Jesus Christ applies to all men without distinction?

Why do the new school Calvinists ignore the decretive will of God, and go around offering, hawking, and pedaling the gospel - the good news of what God has done to save ONLY His own people - to all men without distinction???


2. IF the decretive will of God and the preceptive will of the SAME God, though distinct and separate, are perfectly consistent and harmonious, without any inconsistency or contradiction between them... THEN why do the new school Calvinists (e.g. reformed baptists):- IGNORE the decretive will, and believe and teach contrary to God's decretive will.

Why do the new school Calvinists pretend and teach that faith in Jesus Christ is the duty of every sinner, even those for whom Christ did not die, and God decreed not to save but leave them in their sin? Why do they insist that even those whom God has bypassed in His decree to save in Jesus Christ has the SAME duty to believe in Jesus Christ? Why do they teach that God requires some men to believe a lie?

It is the duty of a man to believe the truth. It is never the duty of a man to believe a lie. Only those whom God has saved have the duty to believe that Jesus Christ has saved them. But the new school Calvinists believe in a god that requires some men to believe a LIE!

The risen Lord Jesus gave pastors and teachers to His church to preach the truth of what God has done for His people in order to call out those He HAS SAVED, and gather them into HIS church.

A universalist believes that Christ died for all to make all savable, and therefore logically and consistently believes these things:
1. That the gospel call applies to all the listeners,
2. That faith is the duty of every sinner,
3. That the gospel "offers" Christ and salvation to all,
4. That the gospel offer of divine mercy is free and universal,
5. That the saving grace in Jesus Christ is common to all, and
6. That God has the same saving love for all, the elect and the non-elect.
     (the universalists, of course, curse the truth of election!)

Because of their theology of universal redemption, their method is wholly consistent.

BUT why do the new school Calvinists who boast in election and particular redemption ALSO believe the same method of the universalists?

Doesn't one's theology affect one's practice?

Monday, January 7, 2013

Some questions on effectual call and the gospel call

So start asking lots of questions. Challenge the popular notions and shibboleth. Refuse inconsistencies and reject contradictions. Demand answers that are consistent!


Some study questions on:

- The Effectual Call out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation, and
- The Gospel Call out of darkness into the knowledge of the gospel of their salvation:   

A. THE EFFECTUAL CALL

1. Concerning 1689.10.1 - Divine calling out of the STATE sin and death to that STATE of grace and salvation
- Who is the Author of effectual call?
- Is Christ involved in the effectual call? Why?
- Who are the objects of the effectual call?
- What is the effectual call?
- What does God do at effectual calling?
- What is the spiritual condition of the mind before/after effectual call?
- What is the spiritual condition of the heart before/after effectual call?
- What is the spiritual condition of the will before/after effectual call?
- In the effectual calling, what is the state of the sinner who is drawn to Christ and united with Him?
- What does it mean to be drawn and united to Christ?


2. Concerning 1689.10.2 – the effectual call enables a saved man to answer to gospel call to believe the truth of his salvation by God's free grace
- How is the effectual call executed?
- Is the execution of the effectual call dependent or conditioned upon God's free and special grace alone?
- Is the execution of the effectual call dependent or conditioned upon anything in the person called?
- Is the execution of the effectual call dependent upon any power or agency of the person called?
- Why is the person entirely passive in the effectual call?
- In what call is a man dead in sins and trespasses made alive, in the effectual call or gospel call?
- In what call is the grace offered and conveyed, in the effectual call or gospel call?
- Is a man dead in sins and trespasses able to embrace the grace offered and conveyed?
- What call enables a man dead in sins and trespasses to embrace the grace offered and conveyed?
- In what call are the grace offered and conveyed embraced by a man, in the effectual or gospel call?
- What does quickening and renewing by the Spirit enable a man to answer, effectual or the gospel call?
- Why is the power that enables the embrace of the grace offered and conveyed no less powerful than that which raised up Christ from the dead?
- Is the effectual call by God in any way dependent or conditioned upon the gospel call by man?
- How are the effectual call and the gospel call related? What about Abraham? What about Cornelius?


3. Concerning 1689.10.3 – The effectually called who do not have the gospel call
- Are the statements in 1689.10.1 concerning 'those whom God has predestinated to life' true of the elect mentioned in this 3rd paragraph?
- Are the elect mentioned in para. 3 included in the elect predestinated unto life in paragraph 1?
- Is ‘by His Word and Spirit’ in para 1 and ‘by Christ through the Spirit’ in para 3 refer to the same persons?
- Are the elect in para. 3 effectually called to life and salvation in a different manner than those mentioned in para. 1?
- What are the differences between the elect mentioned in para 2 and those mention in para 3?
- What does the 'ministry of the word' mean? (Acts 6:4)
- To whom is the ministry of the word intended: those who have the mental capacity to hear or those who are without?
- What is the relationship between 'grace offered and conveyed by it' in para 2 and the 'outwardly call by the ministry of the word' in para 3? What is the 'it' by which grace is offered and conveyed?
- What is the difference between the 'elect infants dying in infancy' and 'all elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly call by the ministry of the word'?
- What is the similarity [indicated by 'so also'] between the 'elect infants dying in infancy' and 'all elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the word'?
- Why are the elect infant dying in infancy incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the word? No mental capability, or the gospel call never reached them?
- Why are all other elect person in paragraph 3 incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the word? No mental capability, or the gospel call never reached them?
- What are two chief reasons that the elect mentioned in para 3 are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the word?
- Are there God's elect who, for are various reasons, DO NOT receive the gospel call?
- Will these be justified by God? How?
- Will these be justified by their faith? How?
- Will these be found in heaven? Why?


B. THE GOSPEL CALL

4. Concerning 1689.14.1 – The ministry of the word/gospel call and faith
- Which particular person of the Godhead is the author of the gospel call to faith?
- In effectual call, God and His Word and Spirit call to life and salvation one who is in the state of sin and death. In the gospel call, the Spirit of Christ works faith in the hearts of those already regenerated. Are the two acts of grace the same? How are they related?
- Who are those who are enabled to believe?
- How is 'enabled to answer the call and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed by it' in 1689.1.2 related to 'is enabled to believe' in 1689.14.1?
- Who are able to response to the gospel call, those already effectually called to life or those still in the state of sin and death?
- Who is able to exercise faith in response to the gospel call, those already effectually called to life or those still in the state of sin and death?
- What role does an elect play in the gospel call?
- What role does an elect play in the effectual call?
- What is the divine work in the gospel call to faith?
- What is the divine work in the effectual call to life and salvation?
- How is an elect ORDINARILY brought to faith?
- How is an elect ALWAYS WITHOUT EXCEPTION brought to life and salvation?
- What does 'ordinarily brought into being by the Word' imply?
- Is bringing a spiritual dead person to life in the effectual call, and calling an effectually called person to life to believe the truth of his salvation the same thing?


5. 1689.20.3-4 - The function of the gospel preaching and faith
"... And therefore in all ages, the preaching of the Gospel has been granted unto persons and nations, as to the extent or straitening [limitation] of it, in great variety, according to the counsel of the will of God."

"Although the gospel be the only outward means of revealing Christ and saving grace, and is, as such, abundantly sufficient thereunto; yet that men who are dead in trespasses may be born again, quickened or regenerated, there is moreover necessary an effectual insuperable work of the Holy Spirit upon the whole soul, for the producing in them a new spiritual life; without which no other means will effect their conversion unto God."

 - What does “in all preaching of the Gospel has been granted unto persons and nations… as to the extent or limitation of it…according to the counsel of the will of God." tells us about the sovereignty of God?
- What is the divinely ordained purpose of the preaching of the gospel?
- What does 'the preaching of the gospel is the only outward means of revealing Christ and saving grace' mean?
- Why is the gospel is the only outward means of revealing Christ and saving grace?
- How does 'the preaching of the gospel reveals Christ and saving grace'?
- What is absolutely necessary for the preaching of the gospel to reveal Christ and saving grace?
- Can the preaching of the gospel reveal Christ and saving grace when there is no PRIOR work of effectual calling to life?
- Can the preaching of the gospel reveal Christ and saving grace that are not already present?
- In whom alone will the preaching of the gospel reveal Christ and saving grace?
- How is the preaching of the gospel related to the conversion of sinners unto God?
- Who can be converted to God by the preaching of the gospel?


- WHY IS THE PREACHING OF THE GOSPEL MOST NECESSARY?

If you wish to try to answers the question to find out how much you misunderstand the subject, send them to me, and  will let you find out . Save your time if you want to debate!




Saturday, January 5, 2013

Has it ever occurred to you... ?



Thus saith the LORD, 
Stand ye in the ways, and see, 
and ask for the old paths, 
where is the good way, 
and walk therein, 
and ye shall find rest for your souls. 
But they said, 
"We will not walk therein."
Jeremiah 6:16

Has it ever occurred to you that you might be wrong?

O yes, on many occasions... it occurred to me that I was seriously wrong... which explains why I'm no longer a Reformed Baptist!

I was converted while an undergraduate at Sydney University in the early 80s, and united myself to a RB church right after. The RBs were the only people I was associated with, and have known closely, and are still very dear to me to this day. I was with them since conversion, and was ordained into the ministry among them in 1993... worked with them for many years until they officially withdrew fellowship in 2004... because of doctrinal differences.

In year 2000, the Lord began to deal with me, and it was as if my RB foundations were beginning to shake. I had internal struggles over many months when I began to see that there is a wide gap between what RBs believe and what the Scriptures declares. There were turmoils and upheavals within... yes, the whole foundation was shaken especially when I became convinced that there is a stark difference between what the 1689 (doctrinal standard of the RBs) says and what the RBs actually teach and believe. I trembled in my shoes, and wondered 'how could such a terrible thing even happen'? I was so sure the RBs got it all right.

I prayed and prayed, and studied and studied - playing the devil's advocate, arguing among bible students on pastors forums, against what the Lord has shown me, just to doubly assure myself that what the Lord has shown in indeed what had been believed by the old school baptists of the 17th century... those who framed the 1689CoF. When I was fully assured in my own mind, I began to alert my highly esteemed fellow RB pastors of my deep concerned early 2003. They did not receive the matter well. They were, and are convinced that I have departed from their 'reformed faith', and insisted that unless I recant of my error, we have to part way.
But they said, 
"We will not walk therein."

Parting way, they warn all their people to keep away from the plague of Sungai Dua Church. A few brave souls DEFY such ecclesiastical tyranny! The Lord has been very merciful in that the Sungai Dua Church (Reformed Baptist) turned around, and we have been together till now as Sungai Dua Church (1689 Free Grace Baptist)!

"Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things."

Amen.

Thursday, January 3, 2013

The Mother of Harlots vs. The Bride of Christ

HOW ROME DENIES JUSTIFICATION BY GRACE ALONE
(adapted, source unknown)
 
Re 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

In ecumenical circles the claim is made with increasing frequency that Rome now accepts the doctrine of justification by grace alone. The recently approved agreement between the Lutheran World Federation and the Vatican, the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, makes this claim. Many supporters of the Promise Keepers movement have written to me making this claim. Those who promote the idea that there are Evangelical Catholics often make this claim.

The Mother Harlot and her many daughters reject the biblical doctrine of justification... that is:
- the BASIS of justification: i.e. by the righteousness/faith/blood of Christ alone,
- the MANNER of justification: by the grace of God alone, i.e. God freely applying the righteousness of Christ to an elect personally, without the elect meeting any condition whatsoever,
- the INSTRUMENT of justification: through faith in Christ alone, i.e. the divinely ordained means for the justified to experience the blessedness of the righteousness of Jesus Christ already applied by to them by God's free grace alone.

This is plainly evidenced in the following indisputable facts:

JUSTIFICATION BY GRACE ALONE 
DENIED BY TRENT

At the Council of Trent (1545-1563), the declarations of which are still in force, the Roman Catholic Church formally condemned the biblical doctrine of faith alone and grace alone. Consider the following declarations of Trent:

If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA (Sixth Session, Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 12).

If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA (Sixth Session, Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 24).

JUSTIFICATION BY GRACE ALONE 
DENIED BY VATICAN II

In its most formal and authoritative statements since Trent, Rome has continued to deny that salvation is by grace alone through Christ's atonement alone through faith alone without works or sacraments. Consider the following statements of the authoritative Vatican II Council of the mid-1960s, called by Pope John Paul XXIII and attended by more than 2,400 Catholic bishops-

For it is the liturgy through which, especially in the divine sacrifice of the Eucharist, 'the work of our redemption is accomplished,' and it is through the liturgy, especially, that the faithful are enabled to express in their lives and manifest to others the mystery of Christ and the real nature of the true Church (Vatican II, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Introduction, para. 2).

As often as the sacrifice of the cross by which 'Christ our Pasch is sacrificed' (1 Cor. 5:7) is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out (Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Chapter 1, 3, p. 324).

...  also willed that the work of salvation which they preached should be set in train through the sacrifice and sacraments, around which the entire liturgical  life revolves. Thus by Baptism men are grafted into the paschal mystery of Christ. ... They receive the spirit of adoption as sons (Vatican II, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Chap. 1, I, 5,6, pp. 23-24).
 
From the most ancient times in the Church good works were also offered to God for the salvation of sinners, particularly the works which human weakness finds hard. Because the sufferings of the martyrs for the faith and for God's law were thought to be very valuable, penitents used to turn to the martyrs to be helped by their merits to obtain a more speedy reconciliation from the bishops. Indeed, the prayers and good works of holy people were regarded as of such great value that it could be asserted that the penitent was washed, cleansed and redeemed with the help of the entire Christian people (Vatican II, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Apostolic Constitution on the Revision of Indulgences, chap. 3, 6, pp. 78,79).

ROME DENIES JUSTIFICATION BY GRACE ALONE 
IN ITS DEFINITION OF JUSTIFICATION

Rome's gospel is a confused combination of faith plus works, grace plus sacraments, Christ plus the church. It redefines grace to include works. It confuses justification with sanctification. It confuses imputation with impartation. It views justification not as a once-for-all legal declaration whereby the sinner is declared righteous before God and is granted eternal life as the unmerited gift of God, but as a PROCESS whereby the sinner is gradually saved through participation in the sacraments. There is no eternal security in the Roman gospel because salvation allegedly depends partially upon a man's works. According to Roman Catholic theology, Christ purchased salvation and gave it to the Catholic Church to be distributed to men through its sacraments.

This is not only a false gospel, it is a blasphemous usurpation of Christ's position as only Lord and Savior and Mediator. The authoritative Addis and Arnold Catholic Dictionary, with the Imprimature (ecclesiastical authorization for printing) of E. Morrough Bernard, 1950, says justification consists, not in the mere remission of sins, but in the sanctification and renewal of the inner man by the voluntary reception of God's grace and gifts This dictionary plainly states that the Roman Catholic doctrine of justification is contrary to that of the Reformation, noting that the Council of Trent was at pains to define most clearly and explicitly the Catholic tradition on the matter, placing it in sharp opposition to the contrary tenets of the Reformers. Our Sunday Visitor's Catholic Encyclopedia, published in 1991, defines justification as THE PROCESS by which a sinner is made righteous, pure and holy before God. Justification in the Catholic Tradition comes about by means of faith in Christ, AND in a life of good works lived in response to God's invitation to believe. ... That works are clearly required in the New Testament for union with Christ is seen in the many parables such as the Good Samaritan, Lazarus and Dives, and others (emphasis added).

ROME DENIES JUSTIFICATION  BY GRACE ALONE 
IN DOZENS OF OTHER WAYS

Not only in most authoritative declarations and not only by its definition of justification, but in dozens of other ways Rome denies the once-for-all sufficiency of Christ's atonement, His sole mediatorship, and the doctrine of salvation through faith alone by grace alone without works.

Rome denies justification by grace alone BY ITS DOCTRINE OF BAPTISMAL REGENERATION. The New Catholic Catechism (1994) dogmatically declares: The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are 'reborn of water and the Spirit.' God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism... (1257).

Rome denies justification by grace alone BY ITS DOCTRINE OF THE MASS, by claiming that in the mass the sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated and the work of our redemption is carried out (Vatican II, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy).

Rome denies justification by grace alone BY ITS DOCTRINE OF THE SACRAMENTS: The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation. ... The fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Saviour (New Catholic Catechism, 1129).

Rome denies justification by grace alone BY ITS DOCTRINE OF PURGATORY, claiming that the doctrine of purgatory clearly demonstrates that even when the guilt of sin has been taken away, punishment for it or the consequences of it may remain to be expiated or cleansed (Vatican II, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy).

Rome denies justification by grace alone and the sole Mediatorship of Christ BY ITS DOCTRINE OF CONFESSION. One who desires to obtain reconciliation with God and with the Church, must confess to a priest all the unconfessed grave sins he remembers after having carefully examined his conscience (New Catholic Catechism, 1493). Individual and integral confession of grave sins followed by absolution remains the only ordinary means of reconciliation with God and with the Church (New Catholic Catechism, 1497). The sacrament of Penance restores and strengthens in members of the Church who have sinned the fundamental gift of ... conversion to the kingdom of Christ, which is first received in Baptism (Vatican II, Decree on Confession for Religious).

Rome denies justification by grace alone and the sole Mediatorship of Christ BY ITS DOCTRINE OF THE PAPACY: For 'God's only-begotten Son ... has won a treasure for the militant Church ... he has entrusted it to blessed Peter, the key-bearer of heaven, and to his successors who are Christ's vicars on earth, so that they may distribute it to the faithful for their salvation' (ellipsis are in the original) (Vatican II, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Apostolic Constitution on the Revision of Indulgences, Chap. 4, 7, p. 80).

Rome denies justification by grace alone and the sole Mediatorship of Christ BY ITS PRIESTHOOD: The purpose then for which priests are consecrated by God through the ministry of the bishop is that they should be made sharers in a special way in Christ's priesthood and, by carrying out sacred functions, act as his ministers who through his Spirit continually exercises his priestly function for our benefit in the liturgy. By Baptism priests introduce men into the People of God; by the sacrament of Penance they reconcile sinners with God and the Church; by the Anointing of the sick they relieve those who are ill; and especially by the celebration of Mass they offer Christ's sacrifice sacramentally (Vatican II, Decree on the Ministry and Life of Priests, chap. 2, I, 5, p. 781).

Rome denies justification by grace alone and the sole Mediatorship of Christ BY ITS DOCTRINE OF MARY: In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the Saviour's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace (New Catholic Catechism, 968). ... Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us gifts of eternal salvation. ... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix (New Catholic Catechism, 969).

Rome denies justification by grace alone and the sole Mediatorship of Christ BY ITS DOCTRINE OF THE SAINTS: Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin (New Catholic Catechism, 1475).

Rome denies justification by grace alone and the sole Mediatorship of Christ BY ITS DOCTRINE OF FORGIVENESS THROUGH THE CHURCH: There is no offense, however serious, that the Church cannot forgive. ... Christ who died for all men desires that in his Church the gates of forgiveness should always be open to anyone who turns away from sin (New Catholic Catechism, 982).

Rome denies justification by grace alone BY ITS DOCTRINE OF INDULGENCES: An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints. ... Indulgences may be applied to the living or the dead (New Catholic Catechism, 1471).

CONCLUSION

Rome has not changed its doctrinal position or its claims to be the one, true, holy, apostolic church. It is engaged, rather, in a clever ploy. It is using the ecumenical movement to bring the separated sons home to the papa (which is the meaning of the term pope), and it is succeeding brilliantly. The amazing fact is that Rome has not hidden its goal in ecumenical relations. Consider the following statement from Vatican II:

The term 'ecumenical movement' indicates the initiatives and activities encouraged and organized, according to the various needs of the  Church and as opportunities offer, to promote Christian unity. ... The results will be that, little by little, as  the obstacles to perfect ecclesiastical communion are overcome, ALL CHRISTIANS WILL BE GATHERED IN A COMMON CELEBRATION OF THE EUCHARIST, INTO THE UNITY OF THE ONE AND ONLY CHURCH, which Christ bestowed on his Church from the beginning. THE UNITY, WE BELIEVE, SUBSISTS IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AS SOMETHING SHE CAN NEVER LOSE (emphasis added) (Vatican II, Decree on Ecumenism, chap. 1, 4, p. 416).

For those who claim to be Evangelical Catholics and who claim to believe that salvation is by grace alone, I say you are deceiving yourself and others by remaining in the Roman Catholic Church which explicitly denies what you claim to believe. God's curse is upon those who preach a false gospel and Rome certainly falls under that curse. The Bible warns that those who affiliate with error become partakers with that error.

Do not be deceived, friends.

And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues (Revelation 18:4).

Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own
lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables (2 Timothy 4:2-4).

Tuesday, January 1, 2013

How many is "as many as"?

One little, two little, three little monkeys...


Christ said, "And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day... As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to AS MANY AS thou hast given him."

Please note that 'hast given' in both passages is perfect indicative active.
How many is 'as many as'?
=========

The subject above was discussed among students of God's word.

Sing F Lau
What are some obvious implications of this plain declaration by the Lord Jesus?

Put on your thinking cap, and tell us your thoughts.
No shibboleth please!
Is 'all which he hath given me' EXACTLY the same in number as "as many as thou hast given me'?

How does this passage in Romans 8 help us to rightly divide the 'as many as' of the passage above? "29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Noble B
Of course...it is exactly the same number!

Sing F Lau
Does 'as many as' mean a fixed and specified number; not one more and not one less?

The Old School Baptists believed this:
"By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestined, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ,(7) to the praise of His glorious grace;(8) others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His glorious justice.(9)" 1689.3.3.

The Reformed believes this:
By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestined ...
everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death." WCF.3.3

Let every Old School Baptists (distinct from new school baptists, e.g RBs) beware of the VAST difference between the two sayings, "others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation" and "others foreordained to everlasting death" are vastly different thing! The latter teach double predestination.

Sing F Lau
Concerning the 'as many as', this is what the Old School Baptists summarized their understanding of what the Bible teaches:

"These angels and men thus predestined and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.(10)"

The Reformed (WCF) believes the same, fortunately
"These angels and men, thus predestined and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.(10)

'It cannot be either increased or diminished': ordinary plumber Joe would say, that simply means "not one more, and not one less."

Now, a plain and direct question: those who claim themselves 'reformed' or 'calvinistic' (both the baptist and the paedobaptist persuasion) who have either of these confessions (WCF or 1689) as their church doctrinal standard - do you believe that the number of men thus predestined and foreordained unto everlasting life is so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished?

Do you, or do you not? Tell us , please.

If you do, do you know what are some of the necessary implications?

If you don't, then get out the scissors or black marker pen, to delete those words in your church's doctrinal standard at your next church members meeting. But that's not the end yet.

Perhaps you should think through this issue first before resorting to the scissors or the black marker pen! Haste makes waste, and exposes folly. Move carefully before you declare your forefathers in error. Otherwise you may just prove your true identity... bastards, i.e. someone else children!

Please tell us how that number can be increased or be diminished. Perhaps you may be able to show us where our forefathers went wrong. Please tell us in what way and by what manner and by whom the number can be increased or diminished.

Noble B
Bro. Sing! I appreciate the exhortation...we are to exhort one another daily and how I do need to have my pure mind stirred and stirred again!

Yes ...I believe that the "as many as" means a fixed number...not one more and not one less...because the choice was made before the foundation of the world...Eph 1.

As you quoted above: "Our Lord and Savior tells us that that number is secure in this above text...ALL WHICH HE HATH GIVEN ME....ALL...This to me means a definite number...not one more, not one less..."

I do NOT believe as the Calvinist / Reformers do but desire to hold to the truth that was once delivered to the saints.

And thanks for the prayer for my understanding...I need more and more!

May God bless you!

Sing F Lau
Sister Noble, since you do believe that the number of men thus predestined and foreordained unto everlasting life is so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished, will you please tell us some of the necessary implications, and the great confusions and widespread errors in the Christendom, as a consequence of ignorance or unbelief of this biblical truth? Thanks.

Scholar Scott
I say the number of people predestined, foreordained, elected and chosen are exactly the same. The implications are obvious. It comes down to a simple question. Who is in control of man's destiny? If our God is sovereign, then HE decides who is saved and who not.

I like what A.W. Pink says about modern day Christianity: "It is commonly taught that God the Father desires the salvation of all mankind, God the Son died with the goal of saving the whole human race, and that God the Holy Spirit is now trying to win the world to Christ. But isn't it a matter of common observation that the great majority of our generation are dying in sin and passing into a hopeless eternity? It seems we must, therefore, conclude that that God the Father is disappointed, God the Son is dissatisfied, and that God the Holy Spirit is defeated."

I love the passion you have for God's word my brother! I do learn a lot from you.

Noble B
Bro. Sing...My husband, Pastor Sam said that you need to look in Rom.8:29-31 at how many times the word "them" is used...It is obvious that the same "them" that were foreknown before the world began are the same "them" that will be glorified when this world is no more.

The main implication of the number being secure is that man plays NO PART in Eternal Salvation....If man played a part, you couldn't be sure that they'd all get there!

Bro. Scott, totally agree with A. Pink and his description of how the world views Christianity...So thankful to know the truth!

Sing F Lau
Thanks. Then what is all this gibberish talks in the whole of Christendom, about getting souls delivered from hell, and gathering souls into heaven by their feverish activities?

Are they misguided about their activities at all?

Does Jesus need man's activities in order to give eternal life to as many as God has given them to Him?

Why so few folks are interested in this subject being considered?

Noble B
All the gibberish to me is that the scriptures have not been unfolded to them...When they read about salvation, they immediately think that it is all Eternal! They do not consider that so many times, it is a timely salvation!

Also, man loves his own glory! They feel that they must take part to insure that their salvation is secure...(Not realizing the frailty of man's fallen state)...

Switching gears here...it is a beautiful thing when a child of God does seek to make his calling and election sure...TO HIMSELF...thus allowing one to grow in grace here in time!...

Yes, I feel that man is totally misguided in their activities about their attempts to deliver souls from hell or gather souls to heaven!!! Again...this is God's work..and is FINISHED!

I think personally that man's minds have been blinded by the teachings of their Sunday School literature and they have not searched the scriptures and asked of the Lord ...So many don't even understand the beauty of Predestination and Election...and if you ever do mention it, they feel that it's an unfair doctrine...

Sing F Lau
Well said, Sister Noble. Thanks.

"as many as..." necessarily implies that no amount of man's activity will increase the number of people with eternal life by one; and no amount of man's in-activity and ill-activity will diminish that number by one either.

But man's activities and in-activities and ill-activities will affect the WELL BEING of those who are given eternal life by Jesus Christ.

Conclusion
The gospel ministry is very important, but it is very important ONLY for the purpose it was ordained, i.e. for the well being of those God has redeemed (i.e. brought into being ) and made fit for eternal glory by His free and sovereign grace.

It is completely irrelevant for the purpose (gospel regeneration) imagined by misguided preachers and their followers.