One little, two little, three little monkeys...Christ said, "And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day... As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to AS MANY AS thou hast given him."
Please note that 'hast given' in both passages is perfect indicative active.
How many is 'as many as'?
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The subject above was discussed among students of God's word.
Sing F Lau
What are some obvious implications of this plain declaration by the Lord Jesus?
Put on your thinking cap, and tell us your thoughts.
No shibboleth please!
Is 'all which he hath given me' EXACTLY the same in number as "as many as thou hast given me'?
How does this passage in Romans 8 help us to rightly divide the 'as many as' of the passage above? "29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
Noble B
Of course...it is exactly the same number!
Sing F Lau
Does 'as many as' mean a fixed and specified number; not one more and not one less?
The Old School Baptists believed this:
"By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestined, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ,(7) to the praise of His glorious grace;(8) others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His glorious justice.(9)" 1689.3.3.
The Reformed believes this:
By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestined ...
everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death." WCF.3.3
Let every Old School Baptists (distinct from new school baptists, e.g RBs) beware of the VAST difference between the two sayings, "others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation" and "others foreordained to everlasting death" are vastly different thing! The latter teach double predestination.
Sing F Lau
Concerning the 'as many as', this is what the Old School Baptists summarized their understanding of what the Bible teaches:"These angels and men thus predestined and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.(10)"
The Reformed (WCF) believes the same, fortunately
"These angels and men, thus predestined and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.(10)
'It cannot be either increased or diminished': ordinary plumber Joe would say, that simply means "not one more, and not one less."
Now, a plain and direct question: those who claim themselves 'reformed' or 'calvinistic' (both the baptist and the paedobaptist persuasion) who have either of these confessions (WCF or 1689) as their church doctrinal standard - do you believe that the number of men thus predestined and foreordained unto everlasting life is so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished?
Do you, or do you not? Tell us , please.
If you do, do you know what are some of the necessary implications?
If you don't, then get out the scissors or black marker pen, to delete those words in your church's doctrinal standard at your next church members meeting. But that's not the end yet.
Perhaps you should think through this issue first before resorting to the scissors or the black marker pen! Haste makes waste, and exposes folly. Move carefully before you declare your forefathers in error. Otherwise you may just prove your true identity... bastards, i.e. someone else children!
Please tell us how that number can be increased or be diminished. Perhaps you may be able to show us where our forefathers went wrong. Please tell us in what way and by what manner and by whom the number can be increased or diminished.
Noble B
Bro. Sing! I appreciate the exhortation...we are to exhort one another daily and how I do need to have my pure mind stirred and stirred again!
Yes ...I believe that the "as many as" means a fixed number...not one more and not one less...because the choice was made before the foundation of the world...Eph 1.
As you quoted above: "Our Lord and Savior tells us that that number is secure in this above text...ALL WHICH HE HATH GIVEN ME....ALL...This to me means a definite number...not one more, not one less..."
I do NOT believe as the Calvinist / Reformers do but desire to hold to the truth that was once delivered to the saints.
And thanks for the prayer for my understanding...I need more and more!
May God bless you!
Sing F Lau
Sister Noble, since you do believe that the number of men thus predestined and foreordained unto everlasting life is so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished, will you please tell us some of the necessary implications, and the great confusions and widespread errors in the Christendom, as a consequence of ignorance or unbelief of this biblical truth? Thanks.
Scholar Scott
I say the number of people predestined, foreordained, elected and chosen are exactly the same. The implications are obvious. It comes down to a simple question. Who is in control of man's destiny? If our God is sovereign, then HE decides who is saved and who not.
I like what A.W. Pink says about modern day Christianity: "It is commonly taught that God the Father desires the salvation of all mankind, God the Son died with the goal of saving the whole human race, and that God the Holy Spirit is now trying to win the world to Christ. But isn't it a matter of common observation that the great majority of our generation are dying in sin and passing into a hopeless eternity? It seems we must, therefore, conclude that that God the Father is disappointed, God the Son is dissatisfied, and that God the Holy Spirit is defeated."
I love the passion you have for God's word my brother! I do learn a lot from you.
Noble B
Bro. Sing...My husband, Pastor Sam said that you need to look in Rom.8:29-31 at how many times the word "them" is used...It is obvious that the same "them" that were foreknown before the world began are the same "them" that will be glorified when this world is no more.
The main implication of the number being secure is that man plays NO PART in Eternal Salvation....If man played a part, you couldn't be sure that they'd all get there!
Bro. Scott, totally agree with A. Pink and his description of how the world views Christianity...So thankful to know the truth!
Sing F Lau
Thanks. Then what is all this gibberish talks in the whole of Christendom, about getting souls delivered from hell, and gathering souls into heaven by their feverish activities?
Are they misguided about their activities at all?
Does Jesus need man's activities in order to give eternal life to as many as God has given them to Him?
Why so few folks are interested in this subject being considered?
Noble B
All the gibberish to me is that the scriptures have not been unfolded to them...When they read about salvation, they immediately think that it is all Eternal! They do not consider that so many times, it is a timely salvation!
Also, man loves his own glory! They feel that they must take part to insure that their salvation is secure...(Not realizing the frailty of man's fallen state)...
Switching gears here...it is a beautiful thing when a child of God does seek to make his calling and election sure...TO HIMSELF...thus allowing one to grow in grace here in time!...
Yes, I feel that man is totally misguided in their activities about their attempts to deliver souls from hell or gather souls to heaven!!! Again...this is God's work..and is FINISHED!
I think personally that man's minds have been blinded by the teachings of their Sunday School literature and they have not searched the scriptures and asked of the Lord ...So many don't even understand the beauty of Predestination and Election...and if you ever do mention it, they feel that it's an unfair doctrine...
Sing F Lau
Well said, Sister Noble. Thanks.
"as many as..." necessarily implies that no amount of man's activity will increase the number of people with eternal life by one; and no amount of man's in-activity and ill-activity will diminish that number by one either.
But man's activities and in-activities and ill-activities will affect the WELL BEING of those who are given eternal life by Jesus Christ.
Conclusion
The gospel ministry is very important, but it is very important ONLY for the purpose it was ordained, i.e. for the well being of those God has redeemed (i.e. brought into being ) and made fit for eternal glory by His free and sovereign grace.
It is completely irrelevant for the purpose (gospel regeneration) imagined by misguided preachers and their followers.
