This creature is as inquisitive as Dr Marrow
Dr Marrow (a pseudonym) is an adjunct professor of theology in a southern baptist seminary (calvinistic!), and it was a pleasure studying the Scriptures with him. The exchanges touched on many issues related to the gospel truth of eternal salvation by God's free grace... and the temporal salvation God's children have to work out for themselves with fear and trembling. May the Lord grant light to each one who read these exchanges.
Marrow
Hi Sing, I guess what I am asking you about prayer is this. In your view does your praying affect or effect anything. When God determined to destroy the children of Israel...and Moses interceded and God immediately said...I will not destroy them...did Moses' prayer really make a difference. Will God send things to your life that you... ask for that He would not send if you did not ask for them? I am trying to figure out if your Calvinism is fatalism or if there is room for God to change His responses to us in answer to prayer. As always no offense is intended...I am wanting to understand. Thanks.
Sing
That's a good question.
You probably didn't look the link I told you about. If you had, your question would have been answered nicely. The link is here:
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2009/03/divine-sovereignty-human-responsibility.html
I know what FATALISM IS - I live among turks who are a fatalist to a man. And for the record, I have rejected Calvinism... there is much error in its. The Calvinists have rejected me in any case.
Concerning your good question, it would be very helpful for you to remember one thing, the distinction between eternal salvation and our timely salvation... the difference between God's work of redemption for us and His work of providence with us. In the former, we are entirely passive; in the latter, we are actively involved.
In matters of eternal salvation, no amount of prayers change ANYTHING. God's has presdestinated the exact number to eternal salvation, and at His own appointed and approved time, He shall effectually call each one unto eternal salvation... justifying, regenerating, adopting, and fitting him for eternal glory - all by Himself.
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
All of these activities of God are UN-conditional, all by His own free and sovereign will, no ifs and not buts, and the object is entirely passive. The eternal redemption of His people is UNCONDITIONAL, and it is just that - unconditional, including the prayers of men. Everything of man and in man is EXCLUDED!
In matters of God's providential dealing with us as His children, prayers matter supremely. God ordained prayers for His children... for their well-being. Read this short article
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2009/03/divine-sovereignty-human-responsibility.html
I won't repeat them here.
I hope I answer your good and honest question. Good questions always deserve good answers.
Marrow
Sing, I have just read your webpage and it answers my questions very well. I am sorry I posted the last post before I looked. Thanks again.
Marrow
Hi Sing, call me obtuse...call me dense...call me a heretic...but I just do not believe that a person will be finally saved without trusting Christ. Twist me up...ask me about those who have no mind or babies...and all I can tell you is what I believe based on what I understand about the nature of God. I just do not believe God calls... men to go to the mission field, get hacked to pieces and burnt alive in order that God's people might be made more comfortable by conversion. Time is short. Eternity is very long. If you are right missions finally mean little. I respect you and one consequence of our conversation is that you make me want to pray for more light and insight into God's word. If I come to a different understanding you will be one of the first to know. God bless. mm
Sing
Brother, I will never call you such... if anything, you are a student of God's word... just as I am.
By 'finally saved' I assume that you mean enter into eternal glory. Correct me if I am wrong.
By 'trusting Christ' I assume that you mean having heard the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ and believe. Correct me if I am wrong.
May I ask, when it is declared:
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified"
is any of those acts of God conditioned upon ANY activities of those acted upon? (Please note that the passage speaks, and applies EQUALLY to EVEY SINGLE ELECT. Don't conveniently ignore or wilfully overlook this simple and plain fact).
Is the final glorification of an elect conditioned upon anything he does?
I affirm that the temporal salvation, i.e. his spiritual wellbeing here on earth, is conditioned upon the activities of other men and his own, in obedience to the will of God.
So many shout 'eternal salvation by God's free grace' very inconsistently... saying it is by grace alone, yet also at the same time that same salvation (eternal) conditioned upon some acts of men!
Sing
Brother Marrow, the whole thing about the nature of God with respect to conversion His children, we wrestled with it long ago when we were at the Evangelical forum.
An argument that says, the gospel conversion of every child of God is guara...nteed by the very nature of God, is at best a baseless presumption, at worst contrary to biblical fact.
May I ask, how much gospel conversion in His children is guaranteed by the nature of God?
I do know certain things that are absolutely guaranteed by God towards all the elect: justification by free grace, regeneration, adoption, and glorification. In these things - all the elect are EQUALLY acted upon in the same exact manner, and to the same exact degree. All these are necessary for eternal glory.
Gospel conversion? What exactly is guaranteed by God's nature for each elect in gospel conversion?
Please tell us your thoughts.
Marrow
Sing, I find justified children of wrath untenable. I find justified rebels without scriptural evidence. I find justified natural men w/o the holy Spirit unthinkable. I find justified God-haters unbiblical. I find justified Christ rejector...s impossible. I am short on time at the moment but I will try to get back to you on some of the things you raise above.
Sing
Marrow, let me assure you, I don't believe any of the MONSTERS you mention above. Either I am a very poor communicator, or you are very lousy in drawing a conclusion from what you have read. Yes, such are indeed untenable, without scriptural ...evidence and unthinkable and unbiblical, and impossible.
None of the above monsters listed by is the same as those who are ALREADY justified by God's free grace but are not yet brought to faith through the gospel ministry. At least I see a VAST difference between the two. Perhaps you see them as the way you have described!
I was instructed by an old man this basic truth: a biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology... rightly dividing the word of truth is the essence of sound theology.
A justified man had the wrath upon his sins removed.
A justified man fears God and works righteousness.
A justified man is indwelt by the Spirit of God.
A justified man is no haters of God.
A justified man is NO haters of Christ if the gospel has not even been brought to him!
Take a look at Cornelius before apostle Peter was sent to him! Behold the Italian centurion and learn some lessons... that justification and regeneration preceded the gospel ministry and conversion.
It is evil and wicked to malign and slander a man as a Christ rejector when he has not even heard of the gospel of Christ!
Marrow
Brother Sing, maybe you think that all the elect are regenerated from the womb...or even at conception...because, if you don't believe that, then you do indeed have men walking around who have been eternally justified but are yet in a state of rebellion and all the other things I said...else they are NOT children of wrath even as others.
Sing
Brother Marrow, for you to say all the above, I can only conclude you have not UNDERSTOOD what I have been saying all along.
And I think I know where the problem lies. It is your failure or incapability to rightly understand the difference between LEGAL justification at the cross and PERSONAL justification at effectual calling. At effectual calling, what was LEGAL is made PERSONAL and VITAL to each individual elect.
Your failure or incapability or even refusal to rightly understand the difference between the LEGAL and PERSONAL extend to the LEGAL sonship purchased at the cross and PERSONAL sonship at regeneration.
As in justification, EVEN SO in sonship, there are FIVE DISTINCT phases or aspects.
Take a look at this issue here:
http://pruning-deformed-branches.blogspot.com/2008/01/dazzling-multi-faceted-jewel_24.html
a. Sons by decree for all elect before time:
Eph 1:4-5 “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love, Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.”
b. Sons by legal purchase for all the elect at the cross:
Gal 4:4-5 "But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.”
c. Sons by birth at effectual call:
Each elect is regenerated at God's appointed and accepted time: John 3:3-6 “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God… Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” John 1:13 "sons of God... which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." 1Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.”
d. Sons by experience through faith in Christ:
John 1:12 “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.” Rom 8:13-14 “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.”
e. Sons by the resurrection & glory: Rom 8:23-24 “And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?”
God's elect are regenerated at some point in their life, between conception and death. So let it be heard loud and clear - I DO NOT believe that all elect are regenerated from the womb or even at conception.
All the elect are personally and individually children of wrath even as the others UNTIL regenerated at God's appointed and approve time.
NOW I AM MIGHTY GLAD that you raise your objection. You are the first one to raise such objection, evidencing you are indeed thinking and studying. Honored to have a fellow student like you.
Sing
I wrote to a brother these words:
I let him raise all the OBJECTIONS he could, and the truth will answer all his objections nicely.
Then he would be ashamed of himself and conscience condemned should he choose to continue in his confusion and obtuseness.
I always welcome objections to my view... if they are VALID objections, and IF I don't have valid answers to them, I am prepared to KIV that understanding, and abandon it when necessary, i.e. convinced.
My basic premise is that God's word in inherently unified and there can no contradiction whatsoever.
Marrow
Sing...you said "God's elect are regenerated at some point in their life, between conception and death. So let it be heard loud and clear - I DO NOT believe that all elect are regenerated from the womb or even at conception.
All the elect are personally and individually children of wrath even as the others UNTIL regenerated at God's appointed and approve time."
If this is what you believe (and I don't doubt you at all when you tell me these things) then my question again is...how can you avoid the problem of an individual being born, living his life UNTIL he is effectually called, as a child of wrath and a hater of God...a natural man. If God's legal, eternal justification does not affect him until he comes under the special work of the Holy Spirit in calling and regeneration then there must be a period of time in which he is indeed a God hater and an eternally justified person at the same time.
If this is not true then please explain to me his condition...in that period of time in his life being eternally justified before God but a rebel in his unregenerated heart.
Unless regeneration is concurrent with the giving of physical life then there has to be a period of time between the declaration of his justification before God and his regeneration on earth. What condition is he in during that intermediate state?
Thanks, MM
Sing
Brother Morrow, You are the kindest man I have encountered in that you cross-examined what I do believe. No one has done it the same way you did. And your valid objections have given me opportunity to make things clearer. Many others just dismiss the whole matter and call me names but you pursued and inquired. For that, I own you as a very good brother. And I mean every word of it. You are the man, brother!
Now, coming to your inquiry. I believe the difficulty lies in your understanding of what I have said concerning our justification that was decreed by God in eternity when none ever existed. This aspect of justification, only in the mind of God concerning His elect, CLEARLY has no effect on the elect personally. In fact, the elect did not even exist them. And even when they do exist, this aspect of justification has no effect upon the elect PERSONALLY whatsoever.
The reason is simply: what has been decreed by God in eternity, and legally accomplished by Christ has no effect on each elect PERSONALLY/VITALLY until it is APPLIED to each elect PERSONALLY.
Nevertheless, the Scriptures is clear that God decreed to justify His elect by Christ, and the Scriptures is also very clear that Christ accomplished the justification for His people (those given to Him by the Father). But what is a DECREED, and an ACCOMPLISHED LEGAL fact by the work of Jesus Christ has to be APPLIED to each ELECT personally before it AFFECTS an elect PERSONALLY.
Please read what is summarized by our old particular baptists. They put it very neatly and precisely in 1689.11.4
"God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, (11) and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification;(12) nevertheless, they are not justified
personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them.(13)"
Note those few words, "nevertheless, they are not justified PERSONALLY, UNTIL....." These words presuppose that the elect were justified in the decretal sense, and the legal sense, but NOT in the personal sense... because that justification has not been APPLIED PERSONALLY. (the non-elect were never justified in the decretal sense nor the legal sense - and justification will never be applied to them in the personal sense... and they will never experience justification through faith in Jesus Christ).
If you understand this, then all your valid question about the 'intermediate state' of the elect is adequately answered.
Sing
The elects' personal condition during that 'intermediate state' is exactly what every child of Adam is in by nature.
"Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh a...nd of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."
DECRETAL and LEGAL realities do not affect the elects' personal condition UNTIL it is APPLIED to each elect PERSONALLY.
But the decretal and legal realities cannot be denied! All stated plainly for us to believe!"
3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."
I consider it a great kindness on your part to cross-examine my feeble understanding of Scriptures. Thanks, brother. I am off to bed!
Marrow
Brother Sing, I thank you for helping me understand your position. Justification is a completely legal term. The elect are justified through the decree of God; the nonelect are not. The elect are bought by Christ in his work on their behalf on the cross; the non-elect have no individual, particular benefit. The elect are regenerated by the Holy Spirit and thus repent and believe the Gospel. I must agree with you...only I also believe that the elect are made aware of this by the preaching of the Gospel (and here is where we must agree to disagree) and that none of the elect will be left without this awareness or in the lingo I am used to using, they will be convicted and brought to repentance and faith in this life. Much of what we have been talking about has to do with the thought patterns and language we use... You have been trained to think more precisely than I have and so your use of words is more exact. Thanks for the discussion.
Sing
I gather from your reply above that EVERY sentient child of God will have the gospel ministry brought to him, have him converted and brought to faith in Jesus Christ. Am I right?
(The gospel ministry is intended for the sentient alone - it requires hearing and understanding and believing, all of which require rational faculty.)
Apostle Paul's ministry is described like this:
"2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, 3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ."
Those three verbs - reasoned, opening and alleging - are interesting and apt. The gospel ministry treats the hearers with dignity, that they are rational creatures and capable of being reasoned with. (of course, only the regenerated can be reasoned with with spiritual things.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Apostle Paul OBVIOUSLY have the children of God in mind in his ministry - EVEN THOUGH he does not know who among the hearers are children of God.
Chapin
Sing Do I understand this brother doesn't believe there will be some in Eternity with the Lord who have never heard the gospel, and as such can not comply with the instructions of the gospel?
Sing
I always want to represent others accurately, no matter how much I disagree with them.
Presently, I believe Br Marrow believes that EVERY SENTIENT elect of God will hear the gospel (including the pelagian and arminian versions) ministered to them, and be brought to faith in Jesus Christ.
Dr Marrow does believe that the NON-sentient elect is EXEMPTED from that requirement for entry into heaven. In this sense, he does believe that there will be some in eternity with the Lord who have never heard the gospel.
However, the gospel ministry was never intended for such to begin with!
Maybe, he can speak for himself.
I believe there will be many of God's children in eternal glory who have never heard the gospel while here on earth. There are many sentient ones who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel. These ARE in addition to the 'non-sentient' ones.
Sing
Brother, here is a silly question.
What meaneth by 'goofy'? Honest question.
Marrow
goofy means dumb, against all reason. I think John Piper's use of "conditional grace" is goofy...makes no sense to me at all...like saying sweet vinegar or cold, hot soup, or what the blind guy saw...etc. you get the picture.
Sing
Thanks. I just to make sure I understand what is being said.
Marrow
Sing, I thank you for your answer on my last question. Here is a couple of more again, I am being honest and wondering how someone who holds your theological position thinks on these things. When Paul was on trial and said to Agrippa (Acts 26: 29) that he desired that he (Agrippa) and all that heard Paul speak that day, were like him (Paul) that is Christians, was Paul expressing a fleshly desire? Also in Romans 9, when Paul expressed a desire for his brethren (in the flesh), fleshly Israel might be saved...even (were it possible...) the sacrifice of his own soul...for their salvation..was that fleshly and wrong? Just wondering how you deal with these passages because they seem at first glance to express a desire in Paul's heart for the salvation of people who obviously were not elect people. Thanks, Your learning brother, MM
Sing
Brother Marrow, I will come back to your soon. You ask really good questions. I am always being taught by good questions - drive me to study the Scriptures.
Sing
Brother Marrow, let me make sure I get your question correctly.
" 27 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.
28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
29 And Paul said, I would ...to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.
Was Paul expressing a fleshly desire?
No, not at all, but a true and sincere HUMAN desire, a genuine expression of the great commandment: "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." A child of God desires good for his fellow men generally... He desired for them the transformation that he had... once a blasphemous enemy of the gospel, but now a follower of Jesus Christ.
The desire of God is compatible with His will and decree. He WILL NOT desire nor command those for whom He did not give Christ to be their Savior to believe Christ Jesus to be their Saviour.
The desire of a child of God is compatible with God's will for him... "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself" and that includes desiring the good that one has for the neighbors.
Sing
"Also in Romans 9, when Paul expressed a desire for his brethren (in the flesh), fleshly Israel might be saved...even (were it possible...) the sacrifice of his own soul...for their salvation..was that fleshly and wrong? Just wondering how...... you deal with these passages because they seem at first glance to express a desire in Paul's heart for the salvation of people who obviously were not elect people.
=========
The narrative does express Paul's desire for the salvation of the people under consideration... the great heaviness and continual sorrow in his heart are sincere and genuine.
There are several considerations here:
- what is the salvation that apostle desire for the people under consideration? Was it eternal salvation by God's free grace, or a salvation that is dependent upon Paul's life and ministry? Would apostle Paul be speaking of the salvation that is wholly and entirely by the free grace of God that he has so copiously asserted and demonstrated throughout the whole epistle?
I believe apostle Paul desired the temporal salvation that comes to the children of God among the Jews ONLY through believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.
- Who exactly are the people under consideration? Brethren in the flesh. Did he mean 'all the Jews indiscriminately' or God's children who are among the Jews? I believe the context demands the latter.
Apostle Paul was dealing with a very unique problem among the children of God among the Jews - even though they WERE children of God, but BECAUSE of their old covenant background, they found letting go of the old covenant very hard, and enter the kingdom of heaven by believing in Jesus Christ a great stumbling block.
When Apostle Paul stated, "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" - it is obvious that his concern WAS NOT with PHYSICAL Israel, but spiritual Israel among the Jews. They needed to be brought to Christ, their promised Messiah. The natural Jews WILL NEVER be able to be brought to the Jews.
Sing
"8 So being affectionately desirous of you, we were willing to have imparted unto you, not the gospel of God only, but also our own souls, because ye were dear unto us."
=======
What do the words "imparted... also our own souls...?"
Gill has this to say:
- but also our own souls, or "lives"; which is the highest expression and strongest proof of love that can be given; and respect is still had to the similitude of the nursing mother, who may be said to impart her blood, for such it her milk diversified, for the nourishment of her children: and such was the great concern of the apostles for the interest of Christ, the spread of the Gospel, and the good of souls, that their lives were not dear unto them, so that these ends might he answered: because ye were dear unto us; both because they were loved by God, redeemed by Christ, regenerated by the Spirit of Christ, and had the image of Christ stamped upon them; and also because that they were their spiritual children; and as children are dear to their parents, so were these to them, even to such a degree, as that, were there a necessity for it, they could freely have laid down their lives for them.
Marrow
Sing F Lau: Could it be to compound the judgment on those who refused to hear and could not the preaching of Christ do the same thing to the non-elect today?
Sing
Their hatred and rejection of such good news, most certainly disclose their utter perversity and corruption, even though it was never intended for them, would most certainly greatly compound their guilt.
Marrow
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. Romans 10:18-21 (KJV)Was God insincere when he stretched forth his hand to this disobedient people? Why would God stretch forth his hand to those he knew would reject him?
Sing F Lau
Brother Marrow, very interesting thought.
But I don't know what exactly is the difficulty.
If there is any, I am not seeing it yet.
Maybe the difficulty arises because we don't rightly divide the word of truth.
I take it as an established truth that God NEVER hold forth eternal salvation conditioned upon man's obedience or acceptance. It is contrary to His moral character, contrary to His revelation, contrary to reason and common sense, etc.
I believe what is involved is their temporal salvation... which demands and requires the obedience of God's people. It has nothing to do with their eternal salvation - being saved from the eternal condemnation due to their sins. It has to do with their deliverance from the judgment threatened against them for their unbelief and disobedient. God is dealing with His people, whom He has made His own by free and sovereign grace, for their unbelief and disobedience.
This is confirmed because, in the previous verses, Apostle Paul is also speaking of the temporal salvation that comes to those that do believe the gospel. Believing the gospel truth will save GOD'S CHILDREN, will bring them much deliverance, temporal salvation.
Eternal salvation came through Christ's finished work alone, and applied by the Spirit alone; all completed by free grace alone. Temporal salvation - related to our well-being as God's children - is conditioned upon our obedience to the gospel. IF YOU APPRECIATE THIS BIT, MUCH CONFUSION WOULD NOT ARISE.
After I have read enough of the Bible, the FALSITY of new school Calvinistic doctrine of the perseverance of the saints in a life of faith and obedient to the end of their life become SO PLAIN! There is no such thing in the Scriptures.
God Himself said, "MY PEOPLE ARE BENT ON BACKSLIDING!"
God would be VERY insincere if He is holding forth eternal salvation to those whom He knew very well had absolutely no capability to receive, in fact positively hostile towards God in their inward man. In fact it would be cruel and injurious mocking and taunting at them.
But that is not true when God called His people to turn from their evil ways. They are able to... in this they were able to exercise a choice... but they disobeyed. Disobedience would face severe punishment here in the present life.
God did stretch forth His hand to His people, calling them to turn from their waywardness, sending them prophets after prophets... but they rejected God's Fatherly call to make amend.
They suffered for their disobedience all throughout their history!
Morrow
Could it be to compound the judgment on those who refused to hear and could not the preaching of Christ do the same thing to the non-elect today?
Sing
Their hatred and rejection of such good news, most certainly disclose their utter perversity and corruption, even though it was never intended for them, would most certainly greatly compound their guilt.
A house, but a reprobate in the fitness for dwelling
