Maybe not so much ignorance but failure to
rightly divide the word of truth.
Renowned theologians whose mantra is
"sola scriptura" certainly cannot be said to be ignorant of
Scriptures; they can most certainly be justly charged for failing to rightly
divide the word of truth.
2Ti 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a
workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
[As it turned out, one man went off on a tangent when he heard the phrase "rightly dividing the word of truth" and turned it into his hobby-horse dispensationalism.
==========
Rayburn Brooks
True. Not rightly dividing the word of truth
is prevalent, yet the ignorant are still our brothers.
Sing
The ignorant blindly follow those who wrongly
divide the word of truth.
Rayburn Brooks
Also true. What is missing? Prayer and effort
I think.
Sing
Yes, prayer for humility to admit errors and
acknowledge the truth.
2Tim 2
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose
themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging
of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out
of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Kelvin
You are a dispensationalist?
Sing
I don't know. If you can tell us what a
dispensationalist is, then maybe I will be able to answer your question. Thanks
for asking.
Kelvin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism
Here is a simple way to tell, do you believe that the Apostle Paul is fundamentally a different apostle from the other 12 in the book of Acts?
He often talk about "the mystery of MY
gospel". Why did the other 12 never talk about the gospel in the same way?
Do you distinguish between the gospel of the kingdom and the gospel of grace?
Sing
Kelvin, what made you asked the initial
question? I'm curious.
Kelvin
Sing, whenever I hear someone who talks about
"rightly dividing the word of truth", that is the first question in
my mind.
Sing
I thought so!
To me "rightly dividing the word of
truth" is understood quite differently. Let me give an example.
"Whosoever believeth has eternal
life" is popularly understood as a conditional offer of eternal life to
whosoever will believe; rightly divided, it is a statement of fact concerning
the believing one.
Sing
"Here is a simple way to tell, do you
believe that the Apostle Paul is fundamentally a different apostle from the
other 12 in the book of Acts?"
Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles... is
that difference fundamental enough? Otherwise, they preached the one same
gospel.
"He often talk about "the mystery
of MY gospel". Why did the other 12 never talk about the gospel in the
same way?"
I have no record of the way how all the other
12 talk about the gospel. There are glimpses from Peter and John. How did the
rest of the 12 talk about the gospel, please tell us. Thank you
Kelvin
I have no record of the way how all the other
12 talk about the gospel.
====
Here is an example, one constant theme Peter
hammered to his Jewish listeners was that they were responsible for crucifying
Jesus. Examples were Acts 2:36, where Peter says, "... Jesus, whom ye
crucified ...." Peter also says in Acts 3:14-15, "But ye denied the
Holy One ... and killed the Prince of life ...." Then in Acts 5:30 he
says, "... Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree." Finally
Stephen, who also preached Peter's gospel, told the Jews in Acts 7:52,
"Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have
slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have
been now the betrayers and murderers ...."
Do you think that sounds like
""Salvation by grace thru faith, made possible by the death of
Christ", that Paul emphasized instead?
Sing
I'm aware of the things said by Apostle
Peter, an apostle to the circumcised. I don't hear much what the rest of the
apostles said on the matter.
Do you think that sounds like
""Salvation by grace thru faith, made possible by the death of
Christ", that Paul emphasized instead?
I don't read of the Apostle teaching such a thing -
salvation made possible.
The salvation which is made possible is BAD
NEWS; it is no gospel.
I read of Apostle Paul declaring salvation
accomplished by Jesus Christ through His faithfulness and that salvation is
freely applied by God to each of His elect people personally when they were
still dead in trespasses and sins.
Peter and Paul ministered to two people from vastly different backgrounds but they preached the one same gospel.
Kelvin
Sing If you believed they preached the same
gospel, how would you understand the necessity for the Jerusalem Council in
Acts 15, with the additional background given in Galatians 1 and 2?
Note especially this verse from Galatians
"they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, and
the gospel of the circumcision unto Peter” (Gal. 2:7)"
If you believe the 2 gospels are the same, what do you think of this decision by the Jerusalem Council?
PJ Walters
Temporal salvation is made possible.
Sing
"Do you distinguish between the gospel
of the kingdom and the gospel of grace?"
Tell me how you distinguish one from the
other, then I may be able to answer the good question.
Kelvin
My pleasure, long read though, but its all my
composition. 😇 https://www.facebook.com/.../the-gospel.../1964852813579021/
Sing
Tell me, in a few sentences, the
difference. Thanks.
Kelvin
Okay.
The gospel of grace is based on the divine
exchange, Jesus took our sinful nature that we inherited from Adam, and we got
his perfect righteousness in exchange. You can only find this understanding in
Paul's epistles, that is why he is our Apostle.
The gospel of the kingdom is based on
acknowledging Jesus as the Son of God, the Messiah. It's only meant for the
Jews, and is preached by both Jesus when he was on Earth, as well as the 12
apostles in the book of Acts.
Sing
Thanks, that's so much better than reading a
long article.
Please tell, is there the divine exchange in
the gospel of the kingdom? Is there grace in the gospel of the kingdom? If
there is, what is the basis of that grace?Asking to understand.
Kelvin
Sing From how I divide the word, the essence
of the divine exchange was a mystery and a secret up to the point when the
ascended Jesus revealed it to Paul (Ephesians 6.19, Galatians 1:11-12), most
likely in the time he spent at Arabia after he was saved (Galatians 1:15-17).
Although Jesus dropped many hints that he
would be crucified and rise again, no one understood it.
They didn’t have to understand the divine exchange,
all they need to do was to acknowledge that Jesus is the Messiah. That was why
Matt 16 had a very interesting account of Peter
15 Then he asked them, “But who do you say I
am?”16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah,[d] the Son of the living
God.” 17 Jesus replied, “You are blessed, Simon son of John,[e] because my
Father in heaven has revealed this to you. You did not learn this from any
human being.
So far so good, but amusingly a few verses
later in the same chapter, which I will use the NKJV instead of my usual NLT to
bring out the word rebuke.
21 From that time Jesus began to show to His
disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders
and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.22
Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, [i]“Far be it from
You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”23 But He turned and said to Peter,
“Get behind Me, Satan! You are [j]an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of
the things of God, but the things of men.”
Paul, taught by the ascended Christ Jesus,
proclaimed in 1 Cor 15: 3 (NLT) I passed on to you what was most important and
what had also been passed on to me. Christ died for our sins, just as the
Scriptures said. 4 He was buried, and he was raised from the dead on the third
day, just as the Scriptures said.
Thus, this critical point was a puzzle to all
the Jews, and even to Peter. He could so easily believe that Jesus is the Son
of God, but he actually dare to rebuke Jesus for proclaiming the divine
exchange.
Its my opinion that if that mystery of the
divine exchange was revealed before the cross, i.e in the gospel of the
Kingdom, Satan would not have allowed Jesus to be crucified (1 Cor 2:8).
Mark Thomas
Who has more power? Jesus Christ or Satan?
Kelvin
Mark Thomas Christ of course, but are you
asking questions about the divine exchange?
Sing
'... if that mystery of the divine exchange
was revealed before the cross......"
This is hardly true. The so called divine
exchange was plainly and loudly trumpeted from the very beginning.
Matthew 1:21 KJV — And she shall bring forth
a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from
their sins.
No, Satan isn't as smart as you think. He has
shown himself shooting his own foot so many times in his attempts to circumvent
the appearing of the Seed of the woman who would crush his brittle head.
Kelvin
Sing, my interpretation of Jesus 1st coming is
to fulfill the promises God made to the Jews (Romans 15:8). The message by
Gabriel to Mary is as follows
30 And the angel said to her, “Do not be
afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will
conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. 32 He
will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God
will give to him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over the
house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”
When Jesus preached the Gospel of the Kingdom
to the Jews, it was for them to accept him as their King. Jesus is there to sit
on the earthly throne in Jerusalem, to be king over the Jews, if the Jews
accepted him. If they accepted, the tribulation would have begin immediately.
But as the story in the 4 Gospels and Acts goes, the Jews rejected their King repeatedly. Thus, the kingdom program was postponed, and the dispensation of Grace began, to the benefit of all of us Gentiles.
Sing
Thanks for telling me what you believe.
The kingdom program wasn't postpone. It was
terminated and annulled in the most violent way in AD 70.
Postponement is a figment of sterile
imagination. No offence intended.
It has always been grace all along, grace in
and through the Seed of the woman alone.
Adam found grace, Noah found grace, and the many in between, etc.
Kelvin
Sing I understand no worries. Those who don’t
believe in the rapture of the gentile church, before the great tribulation,
would most likely think like you.
And yes your conclusion is definitely
correct. Peter also proclaimed, at the end of the Jerusalem council, that
everyone from then on, Jews and gentiles, are to be saved by the gospel of
grace that Paul preached (Acts 15:11).
Only sad thing I felt was that James, the
brother of Jesus and the head of the Jewish believers then, resisted that for
the Jews. It was only after I understood that, then I understand why the book
of James is so different from Paul’s message.
Sing
"When Jesus preached the Gospel of the
Kingdom to the Jews, it was for them to accept him as their King. Jesus is
there to sit on the earthly throne in Jerusalem, to be king over the Jews, if
the Jews accepted him. If they accepted, the tribulation would have begin
immediately."
You are little different from the deceived Jews, expecting a Messianic king that will set up an earthly kingdom.
It's a pity that you think God's purpose in
Christ was frustrated by the Jewish unbelief.
John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this
world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I
should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Sing
But as the story in the 4 Gospels and Acts
goes, the Jews rejected their King repeatedly. Thus, the kingdom program was
postponed, and the dispensation of Grace began, to the benefit of all of us
Gentiles.
Mat 21
¶ 41 They say unto him, He will miserably
destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen,
which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
¶ 42Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read
in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become
the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our
eyes?
¶ 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of
God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits
thereof.
Kelvin
Sing @ It's a pity that you think God's purpose
in Christ was frustrated by the Jewish unbelief.
====
Actually, God is omniscient but I believe it
does not mean we have no free will. He knew the Jews will reject Jesus, but he
allowed that to happen because that rejection opened a way for us Gentiles to
also be included in the salvation plan under the grace dispensation, as Paul
explained in Romans 11.
As for Jesus's earthly kingdom, it was
predicted several times in the OT, Zechariah 8, Micah Chapter 4, and Isaiah
chapter 2. But they were all contingent to the Jews accepting Jesus as their
King.
They will eventually do that of course, during the great tribulation (Matt 24:14).
Sing
Kelvin, Mt 24:14 took place in AD70, the end
of the earthly theocratic Israel.
May the Lord open your eyes. Amen.
Kelvin
Sing, you interpret the end in that passage as
the destruction of Jerusalem.
I interpret the end as the second coming of
Christ.
Sing
It is a pity your dispy-coloured glasses have
so blinded you to such plain Scriptures.
Matthew 24:15 KJV — When ye therefore shall
see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in
the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)...
Luke 21:20 KJV — And when ye shall see
Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Kelvin
Sing, actually, you can just state your
opinion and leave it for the readers to decide for themselves.
Instead I see that you prefer to insist that
your interpretation is correct, and hence those who disagree with you must
therefore be ignorant or blind.
Have more confidence in yourself 😎
Kelvin
Okay I guess its clear that you do not
believe in dispensation.
Can I also conclude that you do not believe
there is a rapture for the Gentile Church before the Tribulation?
That means you believe that both Jews and
Gentile Christians, will have to go thru the tribulation before the 2nd coming
of Jesus?
Sing
I never had a fascination with rapture for
anyone!
Galatians 3:28 KJV —
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is
neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in
Christ Jesus.
The distinction between the Jews and the
Gentiles has been done away with.
Ephesians 2:14 KJV — For he is our peace, who
hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between
us.
Kelvin
Sing, this is the belief of Supersessionism,
where people believe that the Gentile Church has basically replaced the Jews in
the eyes of God, since the latter rejected their Messiah. Yep, this belief is usually
held by people who do not agree with dispensationalism.
Ephesians 2 is also one of my favorite
chapters of Paul, how I interpret that chapter, in that article that I have
composed, is horizontal equality. The Jews did not associate with Gentiles because
they consider them as not part of Mosaic Covenant, but thanks to their
rejection of Jesus, the path is open to us Gentiles to be included into the
covenant of Abraham, as equal to them. The concept of horizontal equality was
unknown before Paul.
But vertically, in God's eyes, I believe he
still sees the Jews as distinct from the Gentile Church. He still has not
forgotten the Jews, and once the Gentile church reach its correct size, he will
come back for the Jews, as Paul said in Romans 11.
It has been a great discussion.
Sing
Supersessionism. Another big word; I nearly
got choked; this is the first time hearing it.
I don't believe "the Gentile Church has
basically replaced the Jews in the eyes of God."
I do believe that the old covenant (of which
the Jews were so much part of) has been abolished, and now there is just the
church of Jesus Christ consisting of the Jews and the Gentiles.
The Jews used to live in the old dilapidated
crumbling house (earthly theocratic nation of Isreal), that has been completely
torn down, and a new mansion built (the spiritual kingdom of God) that embraces
and houses both the Jews and the Gentiles.
Kelvin
Sing but given that the vast majority of the Jews
have rejected Jesus as their king, the church comprised almost exclusively of
gentiles only right?
So when you interpret scripture regarding the
promises and commandments of God, you will naturally interpret them as to the
gentiles? For example, water baptism?
Sing
but given that the vast majority of the Jews
have rejected Jesus as their king, the church comprised almost exclusively of
gentiles only right?
BOTH Jews and Gentiles, on the exact same
ground. The proportion is irrelevant.
Many Jews had expected an earthly
militaristic messianic king, Jesus did not fit their imagination and was thus
rejected. Those whose eyes were opened rejoiced in the promised Messiah.
Sing
So when you interpret scripture regarding the
promises and commandments of God, you will naturally interpret them as to the
gentiles? For example, water baptism?
What makes you think I will naturally
interpret them as to the Gentiles?
Context, context, and context.
Water baptism was addressed to the Jews first
by John the Baptist, and as well as by the Apostles. It is an ordinance for the
new covenant, whether Jews or Gentiles.
Kelvin
Sing @ It is an ordinance for the new covenant,
whether Jews or Gentiles.
Most people, when I ask them why they believe
this, tend to use Mark 16:15-16 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and
proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized
will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Is that also the foundation for your belief
that Gentiles are also subjected to water baptism?
Are you also aware that the Apostle Paul
never talk about water baptism as a ordinance under the gospel of grace?
Instead, we have him saying 1 Cor 1:17.
A good test would be, "If a Gentile were
to believe in Jesus but did not get water baptized, do you think he is
saved?"
Sing
Is that also the foundation for your belief
that Gentiles are also subjected to water baptism?
To the Ethiopian eunuch the Gentile,
Acts 8
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with
all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus
Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand
still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and
he baptized him.
To Cornelius the Gentile,
Acts 10
47 Can any man forbid water, that these
should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in
the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Acts 2 - EVEN AS MANY AS THE LORD OUR GOD
SHALL CALL.
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be
baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of
sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your
children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall
call.
Who is your teacher?
Any further questions, go ask your teacher,
please.
Thank you.
Sing
A good test would be, "If a Gentile were
to believe in Jesus but did not get water baptized, do you think he is
saved?"
A better test is this: "How does water baptism save a believer, whether Jew or Gentile?"
Go ask your teacher.
Thanks for the exchanges.
If you are interested in my thoughts, visit
the blog "Things New and Old."
Sing
Are you also aware that the Apostle Paul
never talk about water baptism as a ordinance under the gospel of grace? Instead,
we have him saying 1 Cor 1:17.
1Co 1:17
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to
preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be
made of none effect.
1Cor 1
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you,
but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in
mine own name.
16 And I baptized also the household of
Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
Verse 17 was said in the context of the
Corinthians' FOOLISHNESS of boasting on who baptized them. He would have no
part in such folly.
Paul BAPTIZED many converts... read the Acts
of the Apostles.
Now you know why Apostle Paul said,
2Ti 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a
workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
No, not as a deluded dispy, but as a student
of God's word.
If water baptism is not an ordinance of divine origin, on what basis did the Apostle to the Gentiles administer it? And submitted to it himself?
Kelvin
Okay, I see you have enough of this
discussion. Like I said, it has been great. Cheers and God bless 😇
Sing
"If you believe the 2 gospels are the
same, what do you think of this decision by the Jerusalem Council?"
Can I conclude that by your question that you
believe there are TWO different gospels?
Please tell us the two different gospels.
Thanks.
What is the gospel?
Kelvin
Didn’t I already shared a link to the article
I composed and even explained to you in a simple manner afterwards?
Sing
You expect me to read your article when I
asked a simple question?
So the gospel of the kingdom and the gospel
of grace are two different gospels. Are these two different gospels a tenet of
dispensationalism?
Kelvin
I recalled you like my simple summary, but I
guess in the end, maybe you forgot what it was. 🤗
The gospel of grace is based on the divine
exchange, Jesus took our sinful nature that we inherited from Adam, and we got
his perfect righteousness in exchange. You can only find this understanding in
Paul's epistles, that is why he is our Apostle.
The gospel of the kingdom is based on acknowledging Jesus as the Son of God, the Messiah. It's only meant for the Jews, and is preached by both Jesus when he was on Earth, as well as the 12 apostles in the book of Acts.
Sing
I remembered that. Is there a divine exchange
in the gospel of the kingdom?
I asked this before.
Kelvin
Sing Yes, and I given you my answer too. 🤗
Sing
Is the gospel of the kingdom different from
the gospel preached by Apostle Paul?
Kelvin
Sing Let me suggest a simple way of looking
at it. Paul's gospel of grace, which he has stated three times that it's "my gospel", has a very simple salvation doctrine. 1 Cor 15:1-4
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel
which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by
which also you are saved, if you hold fast [a]the word which I preached to you,
unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you [b]as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.
Now, if you believe Jesus and the 12 disciples
also preached this doctrine of salvation in the 4 gospels, let's test that
hypothesis by taking a look at 2 passages from Luke. First, lets look at Luke
9:6.
6 And they departed, and went through the
towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.
This passage clearly states that the 12 were
"preaching the gospel". But what gospel did they preach? Was it the
same as what Paul said in 1 Cor? It was later on in Luke 18:33-34 that we found
out
33 and after they have scourged Him, they
will kill Him; and the third day He will rise again.” 34 But the disciples
understood none of these things, and the meaning of this statement was hidden
from them, and they did not comprehend the things that were said.
So the simple point is, "how could the
Disciples be teaching Paul’s gospel of grace– the death, burial and
resurrection (I Corinthians 15:1-4) if they didn’t know about the death, burial
and resurrection?"
The 12 were teaching the Gospel of the
Kingdom. The 12 were not wrong. They were doing what they had been told to do.
Paul is not wrong. But look at the warning Paul gives in the first Chapter of Galatians if we teach a gospel other than his (Paul’s). Galatians 1:8-9.
Linda Lancaster
The gospel is the gospel,
whoever taught it. The gospel IS the good news of Jesus who died for us, freeing
us from the guilt of sin. In luke before the death and Resurrection of Jesus, the 12 were speaking to the Jews. Up until the death and resurrection, all were
still under the law. Now we are in the dispensation of grace until the whole
coming in of the Gentiles. There is no time frame for the time we are living in
now; the time if grace is for the Gentiles. Once the church, the Holy Spirit, is
removed, then the 144000 will evangelise the Jews who did not accept that Jesus Christ is the Messiah in the dispensation of grace.
Sing
Platitudes and soundbites are no help in the
study of God's word.
