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| Hell is temporal, between physical death and the resurrection. Hell shall be emptied at the resurrection. Rev 20:13-14 |
"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
[These words were addressed to the DISCIPLES of Jesus Christ, those whom God has freely bestowed eternal salvation. Christ solemnly warned that the redeemed can end up in hell; hell can be avoided with radical measures in dealing with personal sins.]
[Please
note: hell spoken of and the lake of fire are distinct!]
===============
Sing
F Lau
Why
do so many Christians, when they read this passage and other similar passages,
when they read and hear the SOUND of 'hell' and 'unquenchable fire', inevitably conclude that the passage is dealing with the lake of fire, the eternal condemnation
and misery, even though the context of the passage is clearly contrary to such
an idea?
To
whom is the exhortation addressed? To those still dead in trespasses and sins,
or to God's children, those already quickened with eternal life? If the former,
then they are necessarily saying that Christ is exhorting those still dead in
trespasses and sins to perform such radical actions in order to escape eternal
hell, and to enter eternal life.
Would
Christ be exhorting such to perform such radical activities to deal with their
sins in order to save themselves from eternal hell? Whatever happened to
Christ's declaration that He came to save His people from their sins? And
sincere folks make Christ teach men to save themselves in this passage!
It
is obvious that this urgent exhortation is addressed at God's children, those
already quickened with eternal life, bestowed with eternal salvation. Such are
able to respond to such exhortation. Such alone can work out their OWN
salvation with fear and trembling... to ensure their WELL-BEING as God's
children in this life. Their BEING as God's children is wholly and solely and
completely by the sovereign and free grace alone.
Sins
still have very injurious and harmful temporal consequences to God's children,
causing much pain and miseries in this life, and sins require radical effort to
battle them in their lives. That's what Christ speaks of.
Sins
can bring 'hell' and 'unquenchable fire' to God's children here and now in this
life. A defiled conscience is not unlike that of 'unquenchable fire', an
accused and condemned conscience because of sins unrepented of is unlike hell.
For
the record, I do believe in the literal hell for the goats, every one of them,
and a simple passage will suffice. "And these shall go away into
everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
==========================
Sing
F Lau
If
you take 'unquenchable fire' to refer to the ETERNAL lake of fire, then you are
correct. None in Christ will end up in the eternal lake of fire.
For
Mt 3:12, you need first to show that the term refers to eternal judgment in its
context, and not the horrendous and severest judgment in 70AD upon the Jews...
which Christ described as "For then shall be great tribulation, such as
was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall
be."
Mt
3:7 "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his
baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee
from the wrath to come?...
12
"Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and
gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with
unquenchable fire."
The
wrath to come upon them and the unquenchable fire are directly related... 70AD
judgment.
Michael
G. Morrow
Disagree
my friend...I think the whole reference is to illustrate that our problem is
not our hand or foot but our hearts! He WAS dealing with a bunch of legalists
who thought that sin was outward...He is saying if you cut off your offending
hand...and foot, the problem is still there. They needed a change of heart.
"If" your hand offends????Who among us does not have a non-offending
hand? He is not saying we should all go to heaven as dis-membered stumps. He is
saying that radical surgery is required for men not to go to unquenchable fire.
BTW...the fires of 70 AD have long since been quenched.
Sing
F Lau
Morrow
@ " He is saying that radical surgery is required for men not to go to
unquenchable fire. BTW...the fires of 70 AD have long since been
quenched."
==========
And
that radical surgery which is required needs to be performed by men who are
still dead in their sin! "... CUT THEM OFF... PLUCK IT OUT...
"Wherefore
if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, CUT THEM OFF, and cast them from thee: it
is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two
hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
9
And if thine eye offend thee, PLUCK IT OUT, and cast it from thee: it is better
for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be
cast into hell fire."
Ah,
then your salvation by God's free grace is just a shibboleth - sinners dead in
their trespasses and sins are able, and required to do that radical surgery to
save himself from the unquenchable fire of eternal hell.
You are not alone, but among a great crowd in Christendom.
Sing
F Lau
Morrow
@ "BTW...the fires of 70 AD have long since been quenched."
=========
Long
since been quenched - this is indeed true.
But
before it was quenched, it had completely performed its job of consuming the
object of judgment! So, as far as the object of judgment was concerned, the
fire was UNQUENCHABLE; it consumed them COMPLETELY.
Catch the SENSE... not just the SOUND of the words.
Michael
G. Morrow
Hi
Richard...Sing...fire insurance wasn't mentioned in my post. I do believe in
regeneration...do you? I believe only the regenerate are saved and have the
right, bought by Jesus Christ, to gaze upon the glory of our God. I do believe
there is a place of eternal destruction for those who are lost...but...God is in
charge of who is saved and who is not. I am no sales man.
[Richard has deleted all his comments]
Michael
G. Morrow
Richard...
as I read your post...I wondered...why was the "left behind series"
brought up? I don't push that stuff. Secondly...are you guys preaching that everyone
who is going to be saved in eternity is born again that is, already saved when
he comes into this world?
If
that is what you believe, I don't need to take a seat...I need to leave the
premises.
Michael
G. Morrow
I
rest in the finished work of Christ alone as well. In your scheme of things, it
just does not matter if the Gospel is offered to all. What will be, will
be...so why do you ridicule those who fervently preach the cross to all?
According to you, their efforts are worthless...so they will not change
anything...so...what is it to you, if they do or don't...Why do you fight
something so hard that you don' think matters?
Sing
F Lau
Brother
Morrow, I am a man who ever speak ONLY for himself. I am never good at speaking
for others... and no one authorised me to speak on their behalf anyway!
An
elect is conceived and born in sin just like anyone else.
At
some point in his earthly life, while still dead in trespasses and sins, God
immediately and freely regenerated him with eternal life, without any
instrumentality at all.
The
gospel ministry is very important, but only for the reason it was ordained...
to bring to light life and immortality that is already present in those who God
has regenerated.
The
gospel is good news of what God has done... He has purposed eternal redemption,
and Christ His only begotten Son has accomplished it for all the elect, and His
Spirit has applied it to each elect personally at His appointed and approved
time... such who hear the gospel will rejoice in the gospel and perceive it as
a message that speaks of the power of God unto their eternal salvation.
The gospel ministry is absolutely importance, for it is the means God has ordained for the instruction and enlightening of God's children concerning the truth of their eternal salvation by God's free grace that is already in their possession.
Sing
F Lau
There is ABSOLUTELY no offer in the gospel ministry. No eternal salvation is offered.
To
those still dead in trespasses and sins, the offer of salvation is a cruel
mocking. It is like offering a roast turkey to a dead man.
To
those already regenerated, the offer comes too late... eternal salvation has
already been bestowed to him. What he needs is the instruction of the gospel
truth concerning his eternal salvation by the free grace of God in Jesus Christ
applied by the Holy Spirit...
The
good news of that salvation by God's power and grace is announced. Those in
whom that salvation has already been applied with receive that news with
gladness.
The
gospel ministry is very important... it determines whether a child of God
reminds in his ignorant of the truth concerning his glorious redemption by
God's free grace, and be tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine and lies,
or he is enlightened by the gospel truth, rejoices in the hope of glory...
So
your words are very naughty and serious misrepresentation.
"What
will be, will be...so why do you ridicule those who fervently preach the cross
to all? According to you, their efforts are worthless...so they will not change
anything...so...what is it to you, if they do or don't...Why do you fight
something so hard that you don' think matters?"
What
I am opposing is the delusion that the gospel ministry is a necessary means for
the regeneration of God's elect. I am saying that a mid-wife who claim she has
a role in the conception of the life she helped delivered is a silly and
self-conceited mid-wife. She played no role whatsoever in the conception of the
life she help delivered!
I hope you get the point. The gospel ministry is very important for the purpose it was ordained... not the purpose imagined by some deluded and self-conceited preachers! I am just being plain. No rudeness or offense intended at all.
Michael
G. Morrow
I
get the point, Sing, and no offence is taken. I am going to ask you a
question...I have asked it before and received no answer...but here it is
again. Do you pray? Do you make petitions to God? What do you pray for? Why?
Sing
F Lau
Brother
Morrow inquired: "Do you pray? Do you make petitions to God? What do you
pray for? Why?"
Yes,
I do pray.
Yes,
I do make petition to God.
I
make petitions to God for all sort of things.
I
make petitions to God for all sort of reasons... for His own glory, for the
cause of the Christ and His gospel, for the conversion of God's children
(regenerated elect), His blessing upon the feeble ministry of his servants, for
the good of the church, etc. I even made petitions for my brother Morrow... on
some occasions.
But
I think these may be all too general. So, please submit your precise and
specific question.
I
do pray for the conversion of God's children... all the time. The gospel
ministry is for the conversion of God's children, to make disciples of them, to
open their minds and hearts to understand the gospel truth and be converted to
the truth.
I
don't pray for the regeneration of sinners. That's entirely God's own prerogative.
God will, at His own appointed and approved time, effectually call each elect
to grace and eternal salvation. IF the sinner is an elect, he shall most
certainly be regenerated at God's appointed time. IF the sinner is not among
the elect, no amount of prayer will ever change anything.
The
petitions to regenerate dead sinners are, at best, trespassing and border on
presumption... meddling in things that are entirely outside our calling!
I
wrote some thoughts here: "Divine Sovereignty, Human Responsibility and
Prayers"
