October 20, 2010
How
subtle and devilish is the perversion:
Faith
as an instrument to MANIFEST the justification that has already taken place
HAS
BEEN TWISTED into
Faith
is the instrument to SECURE one's justification from God by His free grace - as
if that is still justification by free grace!
The
new school Calvinists preach ANOTHER gospel.
--------
36
comments
Sing
Faith
manifests what you already have by God's free grace.
It
is "the just (justified ones, by the free grace of God) that shall live by
faith" - repeats the Holy Scriptures.
Faith
DOES NOT SECURE your justification before God.
How
can an unjustified man have faith to begin with? An unjustified man is still a
man in his native state of condemnation of death! How could such a man exercise
faith in order to secure his justification before God?
Might
as well believe that a dead man may eat in order to obtain life!
The
old-school Baptists declared:
"The
reason why any are justified IS NOT because they have faith; but the reason why
they have faith IS because they are justified."
But
the new school Calvinists anathematize this statement of truth by the old
school Baptists.
They cannot distinguish forensic justification by free grace, and experiential justification by their faith! And they are so cocksure of themselves!
Trevor
Christian Johnson
The
instrumentality of the Word of God:
The
truth is that God ordains that the Elect ordinarily should be saved through
faith, upon the hearing of the Gospel. Infants and the mentally infirm
constitute extraordinary cases, yet ordinarily, the witness of Scripture states
the following:
•
“Ye are already clean because of [or through] the word I have spoken to you.”
(John 15:3).
•
“Of His own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a
kind of first-fruits of His creatures.”(James 1:18).
•
"...knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God. For our gospel did
not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and in
much assurance." (1 Thess 1:4, 5).
• “Many
who deny the instrumentality of the Word are often admirers of John Gill, and
yet not even Gill supports their claims of “immediate regeneration.” Gill
affirms, on page 534 of his Body of Divinity, the instrumentality of the Word:
"Though
after all it seems plain, that the ministry of the word is the vehicle in which
the Spirit of God conveys himself and his grace into the hearts of men; which
is done when the word comes not in word only, but in power, and in the Holy
Ghost; and works effectually, and is the power of God unto salvation; then
faith comes by hearing, and ministers are instruments by whom, at least, men
are encouraged to believe: 'received ye the Spirit', says the apostle, 'by the
works of the law, or by the hearing of faith': Ga 3:2 that is, by the preaching
of the law, or by the preaching of the gospel? by the latter, no doubt."
The
Instrumentality of Faith
Again,
Chapter 14, “Of Saving Faith”, in both the Westminster and the 1689 Confessions
of Faith, summarizes well the role of faith as an instrument through which God
saves the Elect:"The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to
believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in
their hearts, and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word..."
The
Belgic Confession (Article 2) explains further:
“Therefore
we justly say with Paul, that we are justified by faith alone, or by faith
without works. However, to speak more clearly, we do not mean that faith itself
justifies us, for it is only an instrument with which we embrace Christ our
Righteousness. But Jesus Christ, imputing to us all His merits, and so many
holy works which He hath done for us and in our stead, is our Righteousness.
And faith is an instrument that keeps us in communion with Him in all His
benefits…”
Below
is an explanation concerning the instrumentality of faith that I sent to one
man who vigorously denied this truth, calling it a “works-righteousness.”
Examine my explanation yourself to see if it accords with Scripture:
“The
Elect are justified by or through faith (Rom. 1:17; 3:25, 28, 30; 5:1; Eph.
2:8; Gal. 2:16; 3:11, 24; Phil 3:9).
Faith
is not the reason or ultimate grounds for the Elect’s justification. We are not
saved because of our faith or on the grounds of our faith, as if we can produce
a certain sufficient measure of this substance from within ourselves which God
would then honor and allow us into heaven. This would be to make faith into a
meritorious act and our work of producing enough faith of sufficient quality to
be a work of righteousness able to commend us before God. This would be yet
another form of works-righteousness. This may be part of your zeal in denying
“duty-faith” – your legitimate desire to guard against any form of
“works-righteousness.”
However,
though we are not saved because of our faith, faith is the instrument through
which God’s Elect are united to Christ. The expressions are thus—dia pisteos,
ek pisteos, and pistei, which can all be translated as “by means of” or
“through” faith.
Faith
is the instrument which lays hold of Jesus. God, through free grace, enables a
person to believe. It is a gift of grace, yet God does not believe for the man;
the man must believe. Therefore, being an instrument and channel, faith does
not come at some later time after a person is united to Christ, but a person is
united to Christ by faith itself. Therefore, though it is proper to speak of a
logical priority of regeneration over faith/conversion, God monergistically
taking initiative to move the man, let us not mistake a logical priority with a
chronological one; there is no perceptible chronological gap in time, nor are
there any who are regenerate but who are yet to exercise saving faith.
Everywhere we see faith we will see the new birth, and where we see the new
birth we will see faith.
Again,
Ek pisteos (“by”, “from”, or “out of” faith) describes faith as that which
logically precedes a person’s justification. Faith is the gift of God which is
given to us so that we may cling to Christ, though it is never the efficient or
ultimate cause of justification, the dative use of the noun pistis being used
in an instrumental sense (see also Rom. 3:28).”
Likewise,
not only faith but repentance as well, is an essential grace-gift that the
Elect must possess for salvation. Though faith and repentance are not produced
within ourselves by our own merits, we still must possess these gifts of grace,
wrought by the work of Christ for His Elect on the Cross, for us to see heaven.
The Westminster Confession of Faith guards us from error in regard to the
necessity of repentance:
"Although
repentance be not to be rested in as any satisfaction for sin, or any cause of
the pardon thereof, which is the act of God's free grace in Christ; yet is it
of such necessity to all sinners, that none may expect pardon without it.” (The
Westminster Confession of Faith, 15:1-3).
Thus, we see that an “instrument” is not the effective cause of a thing, and that God unites us to Christ by the instrumentality of faith upon the hearing of the Word. To believe these things is not “works-righteousness” but are truths defended both biblically and historically.
[Edmund has deleted his comments.]
Trevor
Christian Johnson
Edmund,
that sure is a lot of adjectives to use. Justification by faith is a central
tenet of the Scriptures and one need not be a theolog to read and understand my
plain scriptural proofs above that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the
Word of God.
Trevor
Christian Johnson
Edmund,
I agree with you that faith is not a cause of salvation. A thing can be an
instrument without being a cause, hence ek pisteos in the greek (by, through)
faith.
Sing
F Lau
Trevor,
I suggest that new-school Calvinists like you are confused on two basic points
in the issue under consideration.
First,
you confuse forensic justification by the free grace of God, with the
experiential justification by believing. When you get this right, you will save
yourself from lots of confusion and inconsistencies.
Every
elect of God will experience forensic justification by God's free grace... no
if and no but.
Not
every child of God (an elect that is already justified, regenerated and adopted
in his effectual calling from the state of sin and death to that of grace and
salvation) will not experience experiential justification. Experiential
justification is CONDITIONED upon faith... and hearing and believing are
CONDITIONED upon the capability and opportunity to hear THE gospel.
That's
the first matter. And it is intimately related to the next.
Second,
you confuse the salvation (which is eternal in nature) that is by the free
grace of God through the eternal redemption that is in Christ Jesus) with the
salvation (which is temporal in nature, affecting the well-being of God's
children) that is conditioned upon the responses of God's children to the
ministry of the gospel.
No
one is denying that the ministry of the word is ordained to save God's
children... to ensure their WELL-BEING in this present life while they wait for
their eternal glory, of which they have been perfectly and completely made fit,
WITHOUT THE ministry of the word.
If
you can get these two related matters, you will save yourself from lots of
inconsistencies and contradictions... that are INHERENT in the new school
Calvinism.
I
speak as a former new-school Calvinist for TWENTY years. The Lord shows pity on
me and has delivered me from all those inconsistencies and contradictions.
May the Lord bless you in a similar manner.
Trevor
Christian Johnson
Thank
you for that information Sing.
Sing
F Lau
Trevor,
you can qualify 'faith is the instrument of justification" ALL YOU WANT.
Enough
of your reformed shibboleth! <LLLLLLOOOOOLLLL>
The
PLAIN fact still remains: an unjustified man is incapable of believing. Why? An
unjustified man is still under the condemnation of death.
Sins
brought the condemnation of death.
Righteousness
brings the justification of life.
That
righteousness was IMPUTED at the cross to all elect.
That
same righteousness is APPLIED to an individual elect PERSONALLY at the effectual
call out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation
Romans
5:18 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to
condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all
men unto justification of life."
No
justification, no righteousness; no righteousness, no life.
No
life, no hearing; no hearing, no manifestation of faith.
Is
that simple enough for SOUNDMINDED new-school Calvinists?
Forensic justification involves RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Sing
F Lau
Trevor,
if you had 1% of John Gill's honesty, it would have done you great good.
You
quoted from page 534. These words PRECEDED those you quoted from the same
section 'Instrumentality of Regeneration' starting from the bottom of page 533.
Do
you understand them? I know you rejected them, but do you understand them? John
Gill knew what he was saying because he had a full grasp of the whole matter
more completely than midgets like the new school Calvinists.
Gill
was able to make the distinction between the EXERTION of the principle of grace
without the instrumentality of the gospel ministry, and the drawing it forth into
act and exercise through the instrumentality of the gospel. I hope you get the
point.
It
is one paragraph... but I have broken it up into four parts, to highlight the middle parts of the paragraph. Take careful note of the 2nd and 3rd parts
below. The portion you quoted is the 4th part of the same paragraph.
===========
Fourthly,
The instrumental cause of regeneration, if it may be so called, are the word of
God, and the ministers of it; hence regenerate persons are said to be
"born again by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever" (1
Pet. 1:23), and again, "of his own will begat he us with the word of
truth" (James 1:18), unless by the Word in these passages should be meant
the Eternal Logos, or essential Word of God, Christ Jesus, since logov is used
in both places; though ministers of the gospel are not only represented as
ministers and instruments by whom others believe, but as spiritual fathers;
"though you have ten thousand instructors in Christ", says the
apostle to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 4:15), "yet have ye not many fathers,
for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel"; so he speaks
of his son Onesimus, whom he had "begotten in his bonds" (Philemon
1:10)...
yet
this instrumentality of the word in regeneration seems not so agreeable to the
principle of grace implanted in the soul in regeneration, and to be understood
with respect to that; since that is done by immediate infusion, and is
represented as a creation; and now as God made no use of any instrument in the
first and old creation, so neither does it seem so agreeable that he should use
any in the new creation...
wherefore
this is rather to be understood of the exertion of the principle of grace, and
the drawing it forth into act and exercise; which is excited and encouraged by
the ministry of the word, by which it appears that a man is born again; so the
three thousand first converts, and the jailor, were first regenerated, or had
the principle of grace wrought in their souls by the Spirit of God, and then were
directed and encouraged by the ministry of the apostles to repent and believe
in Christ: whereby it became manifest that they were born again.
Though
after all it seems plain, that the ministry of the word is the vehicle in which
the Spirit of God conveys himself and his grace into the hearts of men; which
is done when the word comes not in word only, but in power, and in the Holy
Ghost; and works effectually, and is the power of God unto salvation; then
faith comes by hearing, and ministers are instruments by whom, at least, men
are encouraged to believe: "received ye the Spirit", says the
apostle, "by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith": (Gal.
3:2), that is, by the preaching of the law, or by the preaching of the gospel?
by the latter, no doubt.
===============
If
you have 1% of John Gill's honesty, you will tell us the WHOLE truth of what
Gill said, and the precise distinction he made.
You
have NOT represented John Gill truthfully!
I always wonder how will the new school Calvinists, who SLANDER and DESPISE Gill as a hyper, ever be able to represent him honestly!
Sing
F Lau
Trevor
@ "The instrumentality of Faith
Again,
Chapter 14, “Of Saving Faith”, in both the Westminster and the 1689 Confessions
of Faith, summarizes well the role of faith as an instrument through which God
saves the Elect:" The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to
believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in
their hearts, and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word..."
=============
Chapter
11.2 already stated without any ambiguity that the grace of saving faith is ONE
of the SAVING GRACES that accompanies the forensic justification by God's free
grace.
I
sometimes wonder whether the new school Calvinists ever studied the 1689 CoF for
themselves.
Here
is 1689.11.2
"Faith
thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone
instrument of justification;(6) yet it is not alone in the person justified,
but ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but
worketh by love.(7)".
Faith
is one of the saving graces that accompany a justified person.
This
justification by God's free grace is spelt out in paragraph 1. Justification by
God's free grace enabled a justified elect to believe and rest on Christ and
His righteousness.
This
act of believing and resting in Christ EXPERIENTIALLY justifies, demonstrates,
certifies, evidences and manifests his justified state by God's free grace.
Faith is the only instrument for the justified to EXPERIENCE the blessedness
of his justified state by God's free grace. Gen 15:1-6 speaks of that - the
experiential justification of Abraham. Abraham was forensically justified by
God when God effectually called him out of the state of sin and death to grace
and salvation when he was still in Ur.
In
the same chapter, paragraph 4 reads:
"God
did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, (11) and Christ did in
the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their
justification;(12) nevertheless, they are not justified personally, until the
Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them.(13)" [The significant word personally is unique to the 1689.]
The
above paragraph states three distinct aspects of justification:
-
Justification was decreed for all the elect before time.
-
Justification was legally accomplished for all the elect at the cross.
IMPUTATION of righteousness took place.
-
Justification was vitally applied to each elect personally at effectual call
when Christ is actually applied unto each elect. APPLICATION of righteousness
to each individual elect personally takes place.
When
this happens, an elect is justified PERSONALLY.... in contrast to DECRETALLY,
and LEGALLY.
When
PERSONAL justification has happened by free grace ALONE, this makes believing
possible. In believing and resting in Christ and His righteousness, the
justified experienced the blessedness of his justified state by God's free
grace. Faith alone does this, not any other saving graces (i.e graces that are
effects of the salvation already bestowed by God's free grace) or observing ceremonial laws as the Judaizers insisted.
Faith
and works EVIDENCE the justified state of a man.
We
see FOUR DISTINCT aspects of justification: DECRETAL, LEGAL/ACCOMPLISHED,
VITAL/APPLIED, EXPERIENTIAL & EVIDENTIAL.
Faith
has to do with the last aspect!
New school Calvinists MESSED it up with the LEGAL and VITAL aspects!
Trevor
Christian Johnson
Sing, In
the quote by Gill that you used in your quote above (after you called me a
liar), are these words:
"...which
is excited and encouraged by the ministry of the word, ."
Gill
connected regeneration with preaching and the Word.
[sing: that's a hallucination! You have taken those few words COMPLETELY out of context. What is "excited and encouraged by the ministry of the word"? Here is the context:
"yet this instrumentality of the word in regeneration seems not so agreeable to the principle of grace implanted in the soul in regeneration, and to be understood with respect to that; since that is done by immediate infusion, and is represented as a creation; and now as God made no use of any instrument in the first and old creation, so neither does it seem so agreeable that he should use any in the new creation; creation wherefore this is rather to be understood of the exertion of the principle of grace, and the drawing it forth into act and exercise; which is excited and encouraged by the ministry of the word, by which it appears that a man is born again..."
It is drawing it (the regeneration that has taken grace by free grace) forth into act and exercise of faith; this is excited and encouraged by the ministry of the word. By faith, it is evident that a man is born again.]
Charles
Page
Regeneration is connected by subsequent chronological preaching not concurrent with
regeneration and certainly not prior to regeneration.
Trevor
Christian Johnson
So, Charles, people are regenerated first, before ever hearing any preaching and
then they hear preaching in a totally unconnected event after regeneration and
are then converted?
Charles
Page
Not
an unconnected event otherwise you got it right.
Sing
F Lau
Trevor,
I did write: "You have NOT represented John Gill truthfully!" If that
makes me call you a liar, THEN you said it.
That
is precisely your problem. You would only choose Gill's words out of context,
and that which suit your notion.
Just
what EXACTLY is excited and encouraged by the ministry of the word? Please tell
us.
In
what way EXACTLY did Gill connect regeneration with preaching and the Word? How
are they connected?
Is
preaching connected with regeneration in that it is an instrument to bring about
regeneration, OR preaching is connected to regeneration in that it
evidences the regenerated state? Tell us the exact connection.
Please tell us. I promise you a good and honest hearing. But no shibboleth, please.
Sing
F Lau
Trevor
@ So Charles, people are regenerated first, before ever hearing any preaching
and then they hear preaching in a totally unconnected event after regeneration
and are then converted?
======
May
I inquire, was the Ethiopian eunuch regenerated BEFORE he trudged on his
donkey-drawn Rolls Royce all the way to Jerusalem to worship God, or when he
heard the gospel from Philip?
May
I also inquire, was Cornelius regenerated before Peter was sent to preach the
gospel to him? Or was he regenerated under the preaching of Peter?
Acts
2
5 ¶
And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation
under heaven.
Those
devout Jews, from out of every nation under heaven, who made the arduous
journey to Jerusalem to worship the God of Israel, were they already
regenerated before coming to Jerusalem, or were they regenerated [SIC] by the
preaching of Peter on the day of Pentecost?
And
please, if this fact has escaped your notice until now - why did apostle Paul
describe the recipients of his epistle to the Romans as "the called of
Jesus Christ... beloved of God, called to be saints..." EVEN THOUGH they
were still in urgent need of hearing the gospel from Apostle Paul. Paul gave
every indication that those he termed as "the called of Jesus Christ...
beloved of God, called to be saints..." have not heard the gospel from
others.
Ro
15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named,
lest I should build upon another man’s foundation:
Please answer these inquiries from the perspective of your gospel regeneration notion. Then I will see how ideas measure up to these observations. I will give your view SERIOUS consideration.
Sing
F Lau
Trevor
@"The truth is that God ordains that the Elect ordinarily should be saved
through faith, upon the hearing of the Gospel. Infants and the mentally infirm
constitute extraordinary cases, yet ordinarily, the... witness of Scripture
states the following."
=============
This
idea of 'ordinarily' and the 'extraordinary' ways in regeneration is a LIE to
cover another lie - i.e. regeneration through the instrumentality through the
gospel ministry.
The
words of the Lord Jesus Christ are sufficient to repudiate both.
"8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but
canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is
born of the Spirit."
Please
note those words, "SO IS EVERY ONE THAT IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT."
These
words EXCLUDE the silly and fanciful notion of 'ordinary' and 'extraordinary'
cases, the so-called 'normal' and 'exceptional' cases. Take it or leave it -
there is only ONE WAY for every elect of God... either it is EVERY ELECT
regenerated by the immediate and direct activity of the Spirit WITHOUT the
gospel instrumentality, or it is EVERY ELECT regenerated by the Spirit THROUGH
the gospel instrumentality.
The
'normal' and 'exceptional' view is invented to COVER UP the lies of gospel
instrumentality in regeneration.
A
lie always needs another lie to cover it up!
I
have never heard of a farmer who claims that the activity of the wind upon his
farm is dependent upon his presence and activity at the farm. Of course, I don't
know that many farmers, even though I was a farmer for 20 years. However, I have
heard very many seminary-trained new school Calvinists who insist that
ordinarily, the Holy Spirit depends upon their presence and activity for Him to
regenerate the elect.
I think a few years of hard knock on a farm may knock some sound sense into their woolly heads <LOL>.
Sing
F Lau
Yoel@
I hope as a good pastor you weep in your inner man while correcting us from
error.
=======
[Yoel has deleted all his comments.}
It
is because I weep for my new school Calvinist brethren here in Malaysia - we
were together as Reformed Baptists for many years, and when the Lord taught me
the errors of my way and left the new Calvinism, I was branded a heretic - that
I raise these matters often. Trevor and his fellow RBs in the Philippines
joined hands with them in their fight against me!
Now the pseudo RBs here, because they reacted against the truth I brought to them, are swinging further away... and are becoming more and more Arminians! That's the reports I get from friends in those churches!
Sing
F Lau
Trevor@
The Belgic Confession (Article 2) explains further:
“Therefore
we justly say with Paul, that we are justified by faith alone, or by faith
without works. However, to speak more clearly, we do not mean that faith itself
justifies us, for it is only an instrument with which we embrace Christ our
Righteousness. But Jesus Christ, imputing to us all His merits, and so many
holy works which He hath done for us and in our stead, is our Righteousness.
And faith is an instrument that keeps us in communion with Him in all His
benefits…”
============
Faith
is only an instrument with which we embrace Christ our righteousness - AMEN
and AMEN.
The
justification of life is that which enables the justified to embrace Christ by
faith. So, faith is not in any way an instrument to secure justification.
Rather it is the instrument with which a justified man embraced Christ!
New
school Calvinists, with their coloured glasses, read the Belgic Confession as
saying faith is the instrument of securing justification before God - which is
clearly NONSENSE because an unjustified man is still under the condemnation of
death.
The
Confession also says, "And faith is an instrument that keeps us in
communion with Him in all His benefits." EXACTLY. We are justified by
God's free grace. All the righteousness of Christ was IMPUTED, and APPLIED to
us by God's free grace... and faith is the instrument to keep us in communion
with Christ in all His benefits.
There
is NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING said about faith being the instrument to be
justified before God. That is a LIE invented by the new school Calvinists!
Our
faith justifies us in an experientially ("keep us in communion with Christ
in all His benefits") and evidentially (evidences that we are indeed among
God's children).
But the confused and haughty new school Calvinists messed it up with forensic justification by the free and sovereign grace of God!
Sing
F Lau
Trevor @ "Faith
is the instrument which lays hold of Jesus. God, through free grace, enables a
person to believe. It is a gift of grace, yet God does not believe for the man;
the man must believe. Therefore, being an instrument and channel, faith does
not come at some later time after a person is united to Christ, but a person is
united to Christ by faith itself. Therefore, though it is proper to speak of a
logical priority of regeneration over faith/conversion, God monergistically
taking initiative to move the man, let us not mistake a logical priority with a
chronological one; there is no perceptible chronological gap in time, nor are
there any who are regenerate but who are yet to exercise saving faith.
Everywhere we see faith we will see the new birth, and where we see the new
birth we will see faith.
============
Faith
is the instrument which lays hold of Christ IS NOT THE SAME as faith is the
instrument to get one justified before God.
If
you think they are the same, then you are very confused! The former is true,
the latter is a lie.
How
does God, through free grace, enable a man to believe? HOW? HOW? Except a man
be born again, he cannot - no ifs and no buts. No man dead in trespasses and
sins is enabled to believe! And a man cannot be born again UNLESS righteousness
has been applied to him personally, i.e. UNLESS the justification of life has
taken place, with regeneration and adoption as the necessary and logical
consequences.
Trevor,
you rightly said, "God monergistically taking initiative to move the man..."
Just
what is that initiative? I will spell out what the Scriptures say: God
effectually calls - by His free and sovereign grace, yes, MONO-ergistically - an
elect of out his native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation.
This enables him to believe.
To
effectually call an elect out of his state of sin and death, these divine
monergistic activities must take place:
-
forensic justification to remove the condemnation of death through the APPLICATION
of Christ's righteousness to that individual elect personally.
-
the forensic justification by God based on Christ's righteousness gives warrant
to the Holy Spirit to regenerate the justified elect.
-
those whom the Spirit regenerated, the Father adopts into the divine family and
gives to all the rights and privileges of God's children.
The
above monergistic activities of God (in that logical order and number) ENABLES
a child of God to believe. IF and WHEN the gospel of what God has done to save
him is brought to him, he is CAPABLE of being called to believe the gospel.
Being enabled to believe is just that. The grace of faith is worked in him by the indwelling Spirit in his heart. This grace is to be called forth or drawn out by the preaching of the gospel. If the gospel ministry does not reach them, that grace of faith in them is not called forth, no believing is manifested.
Sing
F Lau
Trevor
@ "Let us not mistake a logical priority with a chronological one; there
is no perceptible chronological gap in time, nor are there any who are
regenerate but who are yet to exercise saving faith. Everywhere we see faith we
will see the new birth, and where we see the new birth we will see faith."
========
May
I inquire AGAIN: when was Cornelius regenerated before Peter was sent to him,
or when Peter was preaching to him?
Was
Cornelius exercising saving faith - i.e. receiving and resting on Christ and
His righteousness - before he heard the gospel or after he heard the gospel
from Peter. Do remember that 'faith comes by hearing' that's the faith we are
talking about.
And
what about the eunuch? And Lydia? and the devout Jews converted on the day of
Pentecost?
And
think about Abraham, won't you? When was Abraham regenerated? And when did he
exercise saving faith? Simultaneously, or a wide gap of many years in between?
I
think it is quite self-evident that if you are willing to answer these simple
questions, your own answers will debunk your notion of the simultaneity of
regeneration and gospel conversion! You are still stuck with gospel
regeneration.
Gospel
regeneration is very attractive because it gives its adherents an aura of
indispensability in the eternal salvation of God's elect in helping God to
produce His children.
You
would agree that helping God to produce His children is a WIDE WORLD OF DIFFERENCE
from helping God in nurturing His children whom He has produced all by His free
and sovereign grace.
Trevor
Christian Johnson
Yoel,
Thank you for your testimony. I was blessed by it.
Trevor
Christian Johnson
Here
is more from Jon Gill showing that he linked the Word of God in Scripture to
the work of regeneration:
Gill
says "that the ministry of the word is the vehicle in which the Spirit of
God conveys himself and his grace into the hearts of men; which is done when
the word comes not in word only, but in power, and in the Holy Ghost; and works
effectually, and is the power of God unto salvation" (Body of Divinity,
Chapter XI, Book VI).
Again, Gills
Commentary: Commentary
on John 11:43:
"Ver.
43. And when he had thus spoken,.... To God his Father, in the presence and
hearing of the people; he cried with a loud voice; not on account of the dead,
but for the sake of those around him, that all might hear and observe; and
chiefly to show his majesty, power and authority, and that what he did was open
and above board, and not done by any secret, superstitious, and magical
whisper; and as an emblem of the voice and power of his Gospel in quickening
dead sinners, and of the voice of the archangel and trumpet of God, at the
general resurrection;
Lazarus, come forth; he calls him by his name, not only as being his friend, and known
by him, but to distinguish him from any other corpse that might lie interred in
the same cave; and he bids him come forth out of the cave, he being quickened
and raised immediately by the power which went forth from Christ as soon as
ever he lifted up his voice; which showed him to be truly and properly God, and
to have an absolute dominion over death and the grave."
Gill linked the Word of God with regeneration.
Trevor
Christian Johnson
Yoel:
I am merely illustrating that Gill cannot be used as an ally for Hardshell
beliefs.
Sing
F Lau
Yoel,
I was never an anti-Gill, much less a hardcore one. I heard much about him
through Spurgeon. What surprised me most is that Spurgeon greatly recommended
Gill, but Gill was slandered and despised left and right by new-school
Calvinists who adored and admired Spurgeon
I felt that something was terribly wrong somewhere. It slowly dawned upon me over the years that even though Gill was recognized and honoured as the epitome of 'Calvinism' of his era, he is now slandered and despised by later Calvinists. I concluded that the new-school Calvinists have moved away from the gospel. And instead of damning themselves as semi-Arminians, they slandered Gill as hyper!
Sing
F Lau
Trevor,
in Gill's understanding, in many places in the Scriptures the term "word
of God" refers to the life-giving divine person, the eternal Logos, the
second person of the Trinity. The eternal logos, the word of God, is indeed
directly and immediately linked with regeneration.
John
10:28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither
shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
John
17:2 "As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give
eternal life to as many as thou hast given him."
Concerning
John 11:43, it was the life-giving voice of Christ, the Word of God, who
brought Lazarus, from the dead, without any aid or help from men.
Gill
wrote this: didn't you read? " he being quickened and raised immediately
by the power which went forth from Christ as soon as ever he lifted up his
voice; which showed him to be truly and properly God, and to have an absolute
dominion over death and the grave."
There
is NOTHING, NOTHING whatsoever attributed to the preached word by the apostles
or any man. You picked the wrong passage. It is a passage that debunks your
notion!
You
will notice, it is ONLY AFTER Christ Himself has brought Lazarus to life, that
the apostles played some role... in removing the grave clothes. BEFORE that the
apostles CAN DO NOTHING! Well, they did stand HELPLESSLY by the tomb! Ya, they
did do something, after all! Maybe, had they been absent, Christ would have
been IMPOTENT to raise Lazarus! <LOL>
After
Christ brought Lazarus to life, ALL BY HIMSELF, he told the disciples
"Loose him, and let him go."
What
a picture of the role and function of the gospel ministry: to set free those
whom Christ Himself has brought to eternal life: to loose them from errors and
falsehood and superstitions, and to set them free by the gospel truth.
You
can always, if you want to, find in Gill's writing things that will give
semblance and impression that the preached word is instrumental in regeneration.
Either Gill was being inconsistent, or his understanding of the subject
developed and grew for the better over the long years of his ministry, or he is
misread by readers who wear coloured spectacles.
People can even pick verses in the Bible that support all sorts of vain notions... all the easier for you to do so with Gill's writings!
Sing
F Lau
The
chapter on Regeneration (Book VI, Chapter 11) in Gill's Body of Divinity, let
me summarizes:
Section
II - The springs and causes of regeneration: efficient, moving, meritorious,
instrumental.
(sing:
very few modern theologians are capable of making these distinctions, much less
understand what Gill wrote!)
1.
The efficient cause of it; who is not man, but God.
a.
First,
i.
Not man; he cannot regenerate himself
ii.
The nature of the work clearly shows that it is not in the power of men to do
it;
iii.
Regeneration is expressly denied to be of men
b.
The efficient cause of regeneration is God only
i.
God the Father, who is the Father of Christ
ii. God the Son has also a concern in regeneration,
iii.
The Holy Spirit of God is the author of regeneration
2.
The impulsive, or moving cause, is the free grace, love and mercy of God
3.
The resurrection of Christ from the dead is the virtual or procuring cause of
it;
4.
The instrumental cause of regeneration, if it may be so called, are the word of
God, and the ministers of it.
In
the last section on instrumentality, he mentioned the word of God as the
instrument and made THREE IMPORTANT OBSERVATIONS. New school Calvinists are
oblivious to these:
1st,
that the 'word of God' meant the Eternal Logos when found in the context of
regeneration.
2nd,
that the common notion of instrumentality in regeneration is inconsistent
with the principle of grace.
3rd,
the 'word of God' (i.e. the ministry of the gospel) must be rightly understood
as the instrument to MAKE MANIFEST the regeneration that has taken place by
God's free and sovereign and immediate activity.
I
thought that was plain and simple. Take off your COLORED glasses, and read what
is there! And please don't pick and choose. Let Gill speak for himself.
In
any case, read the whole paragraph for yourself!
"Fourthly,
The instrumental cause of regeneration, if it may be so called, are the word of
God, and the ministers of it; hence regenerate persons are said to be
"born again by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever" (1
Pet. 1:23), and again, "of his own will begat he us with the word of
truth" (James 1:18), unless by the Word in these passages should be meant
the Eternal Logos, or essential Word of God, Christ Jesus, since logoV is used
in both places; though ministers of the gospel are not only represented as
ministers and instruments by whom others believe, but as spiritual fathers;
"though you have ten thousand instructors in Christ", says the
apostle to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 4:15), "yet have ye not many fathers,
for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel"; so he speaks
of his son Onesimus, whom he had "begotten in his bonds" (Philemon
1:10) yet this instrumentality of the word in regeneration seems not so
agreeable to the principle of grace implanted in the soul in regeneration, and
to be understood with respect to that; since that is done by immediate
infusion, and is represented as a creation; and now as God made no use of any
instrument in the first and old creation, so neither does it seem so agreeable
that he should use any in the new creation: wherefore this is rather to be
understood of the exertion of the principle of grace, and the drawing it forth
into act and exercise; which is excited and encouraged by the ministry of the
word, by which it appears that a man is born again; so the three thousand first
converts, and the jailor, were first regenerated, or had the principle of grace
wrought in their souls by the Spirit of God, and then were directed and
encouraged by the ministry of the apostles to repent and believe in Christ:
whereby it became manifest that they were born again. Though after all it seems
plain, that the ministry of the word is the vehicle in which the Spirit of God
conveys himself and his grace into the hearts of men; which is done when the
word comes not in word only, but in power, and in the Holy Ghost; and works
effectually, and is the power of God unto salvation; then faith comes by
hearing, and ministers are instruments by whom, at least, men are encouraged to
believe: "received ye the Spirit", says the apostle, "by the
works of the law, or by the hearing of faith": (Gal. 3:2), that is, by the
preaching of the law, or by the preaching of the gospel? by the latter, no
doubt."
HOW ANY SANE MAN COULD READ THE ABOVE paragraph and conclude that John Gill believed in the instrumentality of the preached word in regeneration is just beyond me.
Sing
F Lau
What
are Hardshell beliefs?
