Dear sing,
Yes, believers need the Gospel too. But I don't understand why you think that all men (as sinners) are obliged to repent towards God and yet not obliged t believe in Christ. Isn't the command to all men "to repent and believe"?
Whether they will or want to repent and believe is another matter but GOD commands them to, right?
Sometimes, I am not sure if I truly understand the question posted (stupid as you seem to think some of the questions seemed to be) - I guess we try to read between the lines to see if there is a hidden message. But then again they may just be genuine enquiry, although not always perfectly phrased(?).
I am not sure how well you know the "enquirer", BG, but you seem to sound sarcastic calling him "Brainy"?! Do you think he is trying to put you down or asking genuinely for clarification?
Thanks for the sharing, which has enriched my soul and mind.
In His grace,
Bee
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Dear Wasp Bee,
BG is a very good friend for many years- a typical RB in Georgia. He is the moderator of the discussion group... and is very smart... so we call him brainy. He is no inquirer, but a smart debater. Another man Michael, who is hugely overweight (his own confession) we call him Midget, sometimes Mighty... we just give each other nicknames... and have some good fun!
Did you notice that Apostle Paul was desirous to preach the gospel to those whom he has never met, BUT whom he NEVERTHELESS addressed as "the called of the Lord Jesus Christ, beloved of God, called [PAST tense] to be saints... and whose faith is spoken of throughout the world"? Read Romans 1:6-8. What benefits did the preaching of the gospel bring to these saints - eternal salvation or temporal salvation? Almost all... maybe 99.99% would say, eternal salvation. This passage and many others certainly tell us the biblical role/ function of gospel preaching. Those who say, no preaching, no regeneration is obviously believing a lie; no faith, no legal justification before God is also a big LIE. Gospel preaching is for the benefits of God's children... that they may know the truth of their salvation by God's free grace... and knowing, they shall experience temporal salvation.
Good question.
My guess: all sinners are God's creatures, and are therefore under covenant obligations to repent towards God. There is an implicit covenant established between God and man by virtue of the divine act of creation. And the fact that none can does not excuse them of their covenant obligation.
You may want to show from the Scripture that God commands ALL men without distinction to believe in Jesus Christ. I know that is a very popular idea among those so-called 'reformed' people as well as the arminians. This is related to the common notion that gospel preaching is a genuine and free offer of salvation to all sinners - and "whether they will or want to repent and believe is another matter but GOD commands them to, right?" To be right, you need to show that God commands ALL men without distinction to believe in Jesus Christ.
Would God command all men to believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour when He has explicitly not given Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour? Would God command all men to believe Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour if Jesus had come to be the Lord and Saviour of His own people only,and NOT that of the whole world? Let God be true and every man a liar. Let God be true and self consistent, though man is inconsistent!
Apostle Paul is very self-conscious of his ministry - "therefore, I endure all things for the elect's sake, that they may ALSO obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus WITH eternal glory."
Please note a few things:
- Apostle Paul declares that his gospel ministry is for the sake of the elect only.
- The elect whom God has given eternal life, can AND need to be called out with the gospel ministry SO THAT they may ALSO - i.e. IN ADDITION to the eternal glory that they already possessed - obtained the temporal salvation through being enlightened and informed of the truth of their salvation through the gospel ministry.
- All God's elect shall have eternal glory, i.e. eternal salvation, by God's free grace ALONE.
- These with eternal glory by God's free grace in the effectual call to eternal life (justified, regenerated, and adopted) need to be called out through the gospel ministry so that they may ALSO obtain the temporal salvation which is through knowledge and faith in Jesus Christ.
The Lord told Peter, "Feed MY lambs... Feed MY sheep... Feed MY sheep." These is absolutely nothing said about Peter doing something to bring the sheep into being! Christ alone produces saints - those separated from sins and death by the free grace of God - that need to be fed. Many misguided preachers sincerely, but foolishly, believe that Christ needs their aid and cooperation to produce His sheep.
The Lord says, "The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few; pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest." The labourers play absolutely no role in producing the harvest. The Lord of the harvest himself, without human aid, produces the harvest, ready to be gathered into the barn. The labourers' task is to gather in the harvest... that's the sole purpose for which they are sent forth. Christ Himself gives eternal life to EACH and EVERY ONE of His elect. Because of this, there are children of God - justified, regenerated and adopted - ready to be gathered into the shelter of NT church. Christ Himself, the Word of Life, produces the harvest... These labourers' task has nothing to do with the production of the harvest... Christ's alone can do that. If there is no harvest produced by the free and sovereign grace of God, there would be NOTHING for the labourers to gather in.
I have better stop before it gets too long and cause indigestion... unless you have some Eno ready.
your brother and servant in Christ,
sing
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July 18, 2007 10:05:30 AM GMT+07:00
Dear brother,
I reply within your post with my comments marked ##.
== As we ponder on real life situations and also the order of salvation, we venture to think
on few things which we need help from you. ==
## I am always happy when people ask questions... not because I have all the answers, but questions not only help me to search the Scriptures, they also indicate that the inquirers are THINKING - a virtue is that dying FAST in our generation but a virtue so necessary for our growing in grace and KNOWLEDGE of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I bless our Lord Jesus Christ that you two discuss theology while traveling. It is next to amazing... evidence of grace indeed. Bless the Lord O my soul! Theology is for all the children of God. May the Lord bless you richly.
A few years ago a church member asked, "Is there God's elect among all those who have not heard the gospel and died?" What a good question! But the proud RBs would arrogantly reply with a resounding 'No.' Why? Salvation is dependent upon their preaching!!! It is no longer by grace... 'by grace' is just a religious shibboleth!
When I started asking question 5 years ago, a patient and wise man assured me one thing, 'only the UNASKED questions are stupid questions. So, please feel free to ask your questions.
== a. Calling of the lost sheep is spiritual in the sense of regeneration even though that lost sheep [now found by Christ] may not have the opportunity of calling to faith by the gospel call. Is that the right understanding? In another word, not all the elect may be called out and response to the call of faith? ==
## You have understood well. Scriptures taught this truth plainly, and the 1689 Confession summarized it clearly. Only those prejudiced by Arminian ideas believe that every elect (infants and mentally challenged excepted) will and must hear the gospel in order to enter heaven.
Every elect is effectually call to grace and eternal salvation [therefore assuredly destined for heaven] by the free and sovereign grace of God alone. Every single elect will enter eternal glory - Christ Himself will give every one of them eternal life through His Spirit. "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:28). And Christ Himself guarantees their safety.
This simple truth is also stated in Romans 8:29-30. "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." See Pruning book, page 60f for explanation of this passage... this simple passage is so misunderstood, and twisted by so many.
Please note: there is no place for human activity here... the chain is such that there is no room for human activity here... because this text deal with ETERNAL SALVATION which requires the divine and sovereign acts of God alone, plus NOTHING.
Not all those effectually called elect to grace and eternal salvation by God's free and sovereign grace are called out to temporal salvation through the preached gospel by men. This state of affair may be due to all sorts of reasons. 1689.10.3 summarizes this plainly.
b. Then our observations are two fold:-
1. Some died even before the ability to response are given to them like babes and the mentally impaired. These we have no problem but to praise God for His mercy and grace. Also applicable for those in the lands where the gospel call is forbidden of them.
## Think also about those teeming multitudes in history that were scattered throughout the free world and remote places, both during the OT times and also in the NT times where the gospel never reached. And there are still such places today. I do believe there were/are God's elect among them too. How do I know? The Scriptures declares, "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of EVERY kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation..."(Revelation of John 5:9). But there were many of these groups mentioned in the OT times that never had the gospel preached to them and have perished... yet the Bible declares that are are people in heaven from EVERY of those groups. How were they saved? Exactly the same way you are saved... God's sovereign and free grace effectual calling to grace and eternal salvation.
2. The difficult part: to find someone who lived wanton life unworthy of the Lord. Wicked to the core and totally have no fruits of the spirit but is found in heaven enjoying the life eternity. As for Cornelius, no problem because he was regenerated even before meeting with Peter.. God fearing person. However, can an elected person live wickedly before regeneration ---Yes. That person lives fearful of God....regenerated but yet to call out to faith. Is there a category of elected people not regenerated therefore no fear in God living wantonly and then die to be brought for celestial city. Sorry for a stupid question but we want to be consistently.
## No difficulty at all. You will not find a child of God (regenerated elect) who lives a wanton life of sin. Only a natural man lives like that. When God effectually call an elect out of his state of sin and death, that man is radically changed, inwardly. In the effectual call to grace and eternal salvation, the following happens in the persons effectually called: "enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh: renewing their wills, and by His almighty power determining them to that which is good..." (1689.10.1). The outward life of those effectually called is also affected... Compare Cornelius with a typical Roman soldier occupying Palestine.
Consider Abraham - the effectual call transformed him from an idolatrous man in Ur to a god-fearing pilgrim - EVEN THOUGH he knows next to NOTHING about the gospel yet! And Lot, and Methuselah, etc. Consider Lydia... consider the Ethiopian eunuch.
The Scriptures describe the same thing in this manner: "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: (Hebrews 8:10)..." When God does that to a man, a radical transformation took place in the inner man... though his head is still EMPTY as far as the knowledge of the gospel message is concerned... The gospel message will do him a great deal of blessings here and now in this life.
I can assure you, upon the authority of Scriptures, there is NONE in heaven who had lived a life "wicked to the core and totally have no fruits of the spirit." Such a person, instead of being found in heaven and enjoying the life in eternity shall be found in the lake of fire. That is a FICTION and a FABLE as a result of ignorance... LCK ignorantly concluded and accused me of believing that!!!
When God effectual call a man to grace and salvation, he is given the gift of the Holy Spirit to dwell in him. This indwelling Spirit works in him the fruit of the Spirit... see Gal 5:22-23. There would be a changed life... This changed life need to know the truth of God's saving grace in Jesus Christ, and be instructed to live a life worthy of that new life in Jesus Christ.
Apostle Peter made this momentous conclusion after he met Cornelius, "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." (Acts 10:34).
Two distinguishing marks of those effectually called to grace and eternal salvation by God in EVERY NATION are 'reverence for God' and 'works of righteousness.'
Page 51-52 in Pruning book deal with this same matter.
== Is there a category of elected people not regenerated therefore no fear in God, and living wantonly and then die to be brought for celestial city. ==
## Absolutely NOT. EVERY elect shall be effectually called [i.e. justified, regenerated and adopted, given the Holy Spirit to dwell in him] at some time between conception and death. The effectual call guarantees a changed life - compared to the former which is sinful and natural. This changed life WILL NOT live wantonly... there would be fear of God, and works of righteousness... even though WITHOUT gospel light. The gospel is needed for their instruction to know the truth of their salvation, and training them to live soberly, godly and righteously. There are elect from EVERY kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation throughout history that are not reached with the gospel... but are in heaven nevertheless... A character like Lot is in heaven - he was a child of God, but he messed up his life. And what about Solomon... even he messed up his life. God's children can often mess up their life here... but they lived changed life nevertheless - EVEN without the gospel ministry. But the gospel will bring great blessings to them, IN ADDITION to the eternal salvation bestowed by God's free and sovereign grace.
Sovereign and Free Grace triumphs... ALL elect shall be in heaven. Amen and amen.
This is the ONLY way that the promise of salvation MIGHT BE SURE to all the elect.
If it is by the preached gospel... many will be left to perish in eternal hell! The is another gospel... and we know the strong words of apostle Paul condemning another gospel.
I hope the comments above help.
your brother and servant of Christ,
sing
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July 18, 2007 11:12:53 AM GMT+07:00
Dear Brother,
A child of God who has the benefits of the gospel ministry and a child of God without the gospel ministry can be likened to a boy who enjoyed all the good things of life - proper upbringing, good education, health care, etc. who became useful in the society and died a accomplished renowned man, and a village bumpkin or a urban slum kid who do not enjoy those benefits in life... went through life and died young without even a burial.
But the former man is NO MORE MAN than the latter man... both are them are men with immortal soul... though their life's experiences are vastly different. Some of God's children are like apostle Paul ... others enjoy and experience much less, but all are bestowed with eternal life by God's free and sovereign grace.
I hope this illustration helps.
your brother and servant of Christ,
sing
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Date: September 20, 2007 5:06:15 PM GMT+07:00
Dear Bee,
See some brief comments, marked ## in your post.
== Thank you for that article. It helps to clarify further on the differences
between eternal and temporal salvation, which in terms of concept I can
understand. However, I still have difficulties trying to work out at times
which salvation is a particular bible passage describing. E.g. ==
## Understanding the difference between eternal and temporal salvation, in terms of concept, is a already wonderful progress. Serious errors abound when such differences is not understood.
A common and popular error is that believing brings eternal salvation, leading to many other irrational and anti-biblical ideas, e.g. a person without eternal salvation (justified, regenerated and adopted, and indwelt by the Holy Spirit) could repent and believe.
It helps to understand a very essential truth concerning salvation. Eternal salvation by free grace is prerequisite and precedes the temporal salvation conditioned upon the acts of obedience. Failure to appreciate this breeds lots of errors and irrational ideas.
== Is the deliverence of the Israelites from Egypt an eternal or temporal
salvation? Some were slain by God in the wilderness; some didn't enter the
Promised Land. ==
## This question reminds me of my exchange with an very intelligent brother who is a medical doctor. However, because he rejects the distinction between eternal salvation by free grace and temporal salvation conditioned on obedience, he made some strange ideas.
- He takes the view that deliverance from Egypt is eternal salvation. However, it is very clear that deliverance from Egypt was NOT the same as deliverance from eternal condemnation. It is deliverance from temporal sufferings and woes in Egypt. What about the multitudes that had already died in Egypt before the exodus?
- He takes the view that all who perished in the wilderness perished unto eternal condemnation. Ooooop, Moses and many other godly Israelites are excluded from eternal salvation by such idea. Their unbelief excluded them from the land flowing with milk and honey, and rest from the sufferings and woes in Egypt; their unbelief brought destruction upon them... they perished in the wilderness. Many of them were God's children (given eternal salvation by God's free grace) but perished in the wilderness (because of their unbelief). Read 1Cor 10.
- He takes the view that all those who entered the promised land are among that who are eternally saved by God.... Ooooop, "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel."
A salvation that is in any way conditioned upon what man is and does can only be temporal salvation, i.e. pertaining to the life here and now.
Eternal salvation is by grace alone, from beginning to end. Only a person possessing eternal salvation by God's free grace in Christ is able to obey to experience temporal salvation.
== Were kings like Joash, Hezekiah, Jehoshaphat, Nebuchadnezzar, King of
Nineveh, etc. eternally or temporally saved? What about Balaam and Naaman?==
## If any be eternally saved, one must have been saved by God's free grace without their meeting any condition in any sense. Being spiritually dead in sin, none can meet any condition. The temporal condemnation or temporal salvation that each experience is conditioned upon their heeding the counsel of God.
== Were the parables of "Faithful and unfaithful servants", "Ten virgins", "The talents", "The pounds", etc. talking about issues relating to temporal or eternal salvation? ==
## These are most wonderful questions. Are parables of the kingdom of heaven talking about issues of temporal salvation or eternal salvation? To whom are the parables addressed? Are those addressed instructed what they must do to save themselves from eternal destruction? None of the parable deals with how to be saved eternally. Christ and Christ ALONE and wholly and solely by himself, takes cares of that for all His sheep.
Let me suggest to you that parables deal with the unique situation of the Jews. The term 'kingdom of heaven' is used 32 times in the whole of the Bible, and all its usage is found in the book of Matthew ONLY (make a very careful note of this fact!) - a book addressed particularly to the Jewish audience.
Many of God's children among the Jews were so STUCK in the old covenant mindset, rejected the new covenant ushered in by the Christ. They still think in term of the earthly kingdom of Israel. That shall be done away with and be no more - [happened in AD 70.] All the parables were pointing the children of God among the Jews to the kingdom of heaven that has come.
All the parable deals with temporal salvation... how those in the kingdom of heaven ought to conduct themselves to save themselves from the great judgment to come upon that perverse generation (Acts 2:40)... I.E. the destruction of the Jerusalem in AD 70 by the Roman army, prophesied by Christ in Mt 24.
== Were some of the people healed by Christ, such as the woman with an issue of blood, the paralytic man, the centurion whose servant was dying, the demon-possessed man of the Gadarenes, the Samaritan leper who returned to thank Jesus, the woman caught in adultery, the Syrophoenician woman who pleaded for "the crumbs that fell off the child's table", etc. temporally or eternally saved? ==
## All these enjoyed temporal salvation through the miracles wrought by Jesus Christ. The miracles didn't bring them eternal salvation. Not all whose belly were filled with bread and fish experienced eternal salvation. These miraculous acts brought physical healing, temporal salvation/deliverance upon the recipients of the miracles. I believe some recipients are also object of Christ eternal love... their faith in Christ is indicative and evidence of their possession of eternal life by God's free grace.
== Having said this, I believe the Bible has a lot other equally important teachings (e.g. holiness, Christian hope, the joy of the Lord, discerning the will of God, godly contentment, Christian giving, submission to authorities) to teach us apart from this distinction between temporal and eternal salvation. Perhaps we should give these other issues same amount of attention too - for we are to learn the WHOLE counsel of God, right.==
## You are absolutely right! I enjoyed teaching on all those subjects as I go through Romans with the SDC... we are at chapter 15 presently. All Scriptures are breathed-out by God and is profitable for doctrines and righteous conducts, for correction and reproof.
However, the vast majority of preachers are not even aware of the distinction between eternal salvation and temporal salvation, much less rightly dividing the word of truth to distinguish the two. For that reason, the grievous lies are repeated - believing secured eternal salvation, believing is the means to obtain eternal life, faith secures legal justification before God, etc.
Now that you understand the distinction between the eternal salvation by free grace and the temporal salvation conditioned upon obedience, I will cease 'pestering' you with this matter. You have tolerated me well
I am still digging the Mine... I will pass on the gold nuggets when I find them.
May the Lord bless you richly.
sing
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