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| The Arch of Titus - Menorah |
Fri Feb 2, 2007 10:38 am
Brethren,
Please help me
Mt 24:1-3 read, "And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to show him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
The Lord Jesus made a momentous statement concerning the complete destruction of the temple. That statement caused Peter to ask among other things, about "the end of the world."
Is there a direct connection between Christ's statement of the destruction of the temple and Peter's question on 'the end of the world'?
Which world did Peter have in mind - is it the end of the Jewish world, or the end of the human world at the end of time?
Peter ask about the coming of Jesus - is this about Christ's second coming, or the coming of the risen Lord to execute His judgment which resulted in the obliteration of the temple and the cessation of the earthly theocratic Jewish nation? Is this coming of Jesus the same as 'the day of judgment and perdition' and 'the day of the Lord' spoken of in 2Pet 3:7,10.
Are Peter's word of exhortation to the fellow Jews in his second epistle (3:10-13) related to the answer he received from Christ in Mt 24?
sing
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Fri Feb 2, 2007 10:16 am
Dear bro. Sing,Good evening to you, and to the rest of the brothers. In that passage from the gospels that you quoted, that speaks of the destruction of the temple and the end of the age, and a coming of the Lord.
Regarding the temple, let us remember that the veil was rent when Jesus died on Calvary (Matthew 27:51). The complete destruction of the old Jewish temple by 70 AD simply points to the end of the sacrificial system, and the temporary rejection of National Israel by God. Judgment had come and was swift and decisive.
Regarding the end of the age, this actually began with the ministry of John the Baptist in the gospels. Luke 16:16 "for the law and the prophets were until John, but since then the kingdom of God is preached..." No longer was the age of the law to be dominant. Now the kingdom of God was proclaimed. Mark 1:1 "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God." Further, Colossians 2:14 reads; "blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to the cross..." The cessation of the dispensation of the law seems to have been gradual, over a period of time, as the gospels were a period of transition from law to grace. Remember that Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel, and also that the Apostles ministered to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Regarding the coming of the Lord; this passage seems to refer to a coming in judgment upon national Israel for rejecting Jesus as their King and Messiah. It was always the Lord's plan to suffer on Calvary for our sins, and be raised from the dead. Final judgment upon Israel seems to have been effected by 70 AD.
Interesting text Sing. I hope that I have been of some help, and was accurate.
Billy
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| Destruction of the temple in Jerusalem – 70 AD |
Sat Feb 3, 2007 3:58 am
I have to say that I disagree with you assessment of the passage Sing asked you about. I do not believe the second coming in Mt. 24 is about the Judgment of A. D. 70. As in much of other prophecy literature there is a near and far fulfillment.
Yours, MM
Sat Feb 3, 2007 4:03 am
Hi Billie,I meant to say that I do not believe that Mt 24 is JUST about the judgment of 70 A. D.
Thanks,
MM
Sat Feb 3, 2007 4:09 am
Hi Bro. Mickey,good to hear from you again. The Matthew 24 passage may indeed have a dual fulfillment, at 70 AD and during the future 7 year tribulation. Mike, don't you think that we are getting closer to the end of the age of grace? The second coming of Jesus is near indeed. By the way, central Florida was just devastated by a deadly tornado. Nature has turned against the human race... Billy
Sat Feb 3, 2007 12:25 pm
Brother Bill,Thanks for your thoughts.
I think you have stated the truth to the THREE aspects of the ONE question asked by Peter. The ONE question is about the different aspects of the same momentous event: the destruction of the temple marked the coming of the Lord to execute His judgment on the unbelieving Jewish nation (prophesied by the prophets as well as by Christ himself), bringing the final and complete rejection of the Jewish nation.
I believe the second coming of Christ at the end of this gospel age is REMOTELY in the mind of apostle Peter. Verse 31 obviously speak of the gospel age.
Verse 34 CONFINES all the events mentioned in the previous verses to that particular generation... the perverse and untoward generation mentioned in Acts 2:40.
Often, as non-Jews, we UTTERLY FAILED to see the cataclysmic nature of the event of AD 70.... 'the end of the world' to the Jews in the first century... and 'the end of the world' to the Gentiles after the first century are VERY different things. The former speaks of the cataclysmic end of the Jewish world in AD 70, and the latter speaks of the cataclysmic end of the whole world at the end of time.
I read a very interesting article titled 'The Witness of AD 70' at www.letgodbetrue.com.
just my sandy opinion,
sing
Sun Feb 4, 2007 9:23 am
Howdy Sing out loud,What do you think Paul was talking about in Romans 11?
BGiant
Sun Feb 4, 2007 9:29 am
Hi Brian, hi Sing. God is not finished with Israel, the time of Jacob's trouble may yet be near. Jesus is coming soon! Billy
Sun Feb 4, 2007 1:44 pm
Hello,Mighty Mouth, I would be mighty please if you would show us that there is a second coming spoken of in Mt 24.
I would think the end of the Jewish theocracy in AD 70 and the end of the world at Christ second coming are WORLDS apart. So, even if there is this near and far or double fulfillment, it simply won't fit the raw data given. Why would Christ speak of double fulfillment to the
simple and plain question of apostle Peter???
Thanks. sing
Sun Feb 4, 2007 4:02 pm
== Hi Brian, hi Sing. God is not finished with Israel, the time of Jacob's trouble may yet be near. Jesus is coming soon! Billy ==Billy and Brainy, I believe there is a sharp distinction between Israel as an earthly theocratic nation with all old covenant trappings - eg. temple, Jerusalem, sacrifices, - and the Jews as an ethnic people. Israel as a theocratic nation is finished... as finished as it can be. There are elect among the Jews... and they shall all be called to eternal salvation, in exactly the same way as any other elect - by God's free grace. Amen. Come Lord Jesus... even so before USA degenerate further!
sing
Sun Feb 4, 2007 4:01 pm
Brother Brainy Giant,
Please elaborate. I would love to hear your far and near fulfillment
idea. sing
Mon Feb 5, 2007 3:59 am
Hi Sing,I agree that Israel as a theocratic nation is no longer acceptable to God, that is, they must come to Jesus Christ the same as everyone else. I do believe that there will be a national revival among the Jewish people and they will own their Messiah. This will be a time of great glory for the Son.
BG
Mon Feb 5, 2007 4:48 am
Howdy Sing,Your posts are never easy :-)
I will try as best I can.
1) Lets first consider the question asked by our Lord's disciples: "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" (24:3) There are two questions in one here -- 1) when will the Temple be destroyed, and 2) what will be the sign of Jesus' coming at the end of the age. It is reasonable to expect Jesus to answer both questions.
2) In 24:29, we are told that the tribulation spoken of here "immediately " precedes the sign of the Son of man" This can only happen if there is a near and far in this passage.
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
3) Verse 36 tells us ""But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only." Is this to be taken that no one knows when Jerusalem will be destroyed? look also at verse 38 & 39, "For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. " This makes no sense if it merely refers to 70 AD. Besides, there was a bunch of warnings for Titus' destruction of Jerusalem.
BG
Mon Feb 5, 2007 5:31 am
Hi Sing,I hope all is well with you and your family.
Jesus said in Mat. 24:14 The gospel would be preached in all the world to all nations. That was not accomplished by A. D. 70. So that awaits a later fulfillment. (Which btw, can be accomplished in our generation by means of TV, Internet, etc.)
verse 30 of that chapter yet remains to be fulfilled. v 31 must still be in the future since all the elect have yet to be gathered from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other. v. 36 must still be in the future...it seems impossible to me that Christ did not know the day of the destruction of the Temple just about 30 years from his own earthly life. In the same context and without a break in the monologue Jesus calls his coming in Mt. 25 the marriage of the Lamb. I doubt seriously if the destruction of the temple could be called the same thing as the marriage of the Lamb. In Mt. 25 you have the parable of the talents that seems to indicate a reckoning concerning gifts and how they were used in this life...again much more suited to the final Coming of Christ than to the destruction of the temple. Mt 25:31 speaks of Christ coming in his glory and before him shall be gathered all nations...did this happen at the destruction of the temple? I think not.
Sing these are some of the reasons I believe there is more here than just a simple answer to Peter's question. As in many other answers Jesus gave to questions given to him, he gave much more than He was asked.
Yours in Him, MM
Mon Feb 5, 2007 7:50 am
Hi Brainy,Please explain what meaneth by 'national revival'?
Will God restore the theocratic nation again?
I do believe there will be a conversion of many Jews to Christ, but the Jewish
nation will never be revived.
If there is such a thing, apostle Paul would have stated that in his letter to the Hebrews.
But there isn't a slightest hint.
sing
Mon Feb 5, 2007 9:10 am
Howdy Sing,== Please explain what meaneth by 'national revival'?==
The nation of Israel is sitting over there in the Middle East after about 2,000 years of dispersion. I tend to believe that a revival will sweep through that nation.
==Will God restore the theocratic nation again?==
I don't think so, but perhaps they will attempt a return to an OT type of worship on their way to revival. I am not saying that God is pleased by that, but it may be part of the path marked out. I don't know how God will bring it about.
==I do believe there will be a conversion of many Jews to Christ, but the Jewish nation will
never be revived.==
What do you call that nation next to Jordan?
==If there is such a thing, apostle Paul would have stated that in his letter to the Hebrews.
But there isn't a slightest hint.==
So, you think Paul wrote Hebrews :-)
A forgiven sinner,
BG
Tue Feb 6, 2007 2:45 am
Mighty Midget,
I reply within your post.
There is ONE question with THREE aspects to it.... all the three aspect related to the end of the Jewish world. That's the simplest and harmonious way to fit the question and the answer. These things will happen when the risen Lord come to judge the nation Israel, and that coming for judgment shall end the nation of Israel.
The destruction of the temple spells the end of the Jewish nation, a fulfillment of the prophecy of the day of the Lord coming upon Israel in judgment - the judgment stated at the end of Mt 25!!!
In Malachi 4:1,5, we read, 'For behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be as stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.... Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.' That can only be referring to AD 70.
Elsewhere in the NT, the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ at the end of the age is described in plain language...
2) In 24:29, we are told that the tribulation spoken of here "immediately " precedes the sign of the Son of man" This can only happen if there is a near and far in this passage.
IMMEDIATELY... and NOT few thousands years after the great tribulation of those days spoken of in verse 21... the great tribulation that those trapped Jews would suffer horrendously under the Romans destroyers.
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.<
All the tribes of the LAND will mourn... the Son of Man came with vengeance and wrath upon the Jewish nation as prophesied. The apocalyptic language speak of the cataclysmic upheaval in the ending of the Jewish nation - not the second coming. The whole idea of the second is simply read into it. Jesus spoke these words to the proud and wicked Sanhedrin, "Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven." (Mt 26:64). Ye shall see the Son of Man coming for judgment upon Israel...
3) Verse 36 tells us ""But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only." Is this to be taken that no one knows when Jerusalem will be destroyed? look also at verse 38 & 39, "For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. " This makes no sense if it merely refers to 70 AD. Besides, there was a bunch of warnings for Titus' destruction of Jerusalem.
Make perfect sense... the world remains after Noah's flood... the world remains after the AD 70! The unbelieving Jews were indeed acting like those of Noah's days... and failed to escape as warned by Jesus in verse 15ff. What's the use of a 1000 bunches of warnings that were not heeded... How many Jews did Josephus say were trapped and perished in Judea? And how many were transported to Egypt as slaves?
Nobody knew the exact hour of that day of great tribulation. When you see the signs, flee to the mountains.... I can't tell you the exact hour and exact day.
The day of the Lord spoken of is the day of vengeance and wrath upon the stiffnecked nation of Israel - not the second coming at all.
sandy opinions... have consumed too much sand in the south seas,
sing
Tue Feb 6, 2007 9:16 am
Brainy,
You asked, "What do you call that nation next to Jordan?"
It is a modern political nation call 'Israel.'
It is a nation of mixed mongrels.
It has NO connection with the biblical Israel.
Most are Ashkenazi Jews, and have very LITTLE to do with Jesus Christ, historical Hebrew, David, Moses, or Abraham. The Sephardic Jews reject the modern political nation of Israel.
The Israel of God's creation has been permanently done away by God Himself... with no root or branch left. That which is erected by man last century and supported by deceived Uncle Sam is not of God.
you asked, and i give my sandy opinion,
sing
p/s 1
Matthew 24-25 speak of the end, and judgment at the end of the Jewish world. The sheep and the goats spoken of belongs to the One same shepherd... and they are being judged.
p/s 2
Here is a good article
http://ajmacdonaldjr.wordpress.com/2012/03/28/the-end-of-the-jewish-age-the-destruction-of-jerusalem-in-70-ad/
