On Dec 15, 2007, at 5:39 PM, sing wrote:
Dear Honey-bee,
If you are still seeking for nectar (studying the Scriptures), here is something for you to think about. I have a question. Please give me your thoughts. Forward it to your RBs friends.
I look forward to some credible explanation.
sing
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subject: Gen 15:1-6, Romans 4:3-5 and 1689.11.1
Genesis 15:
1 ¶ After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2 ¶ And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he [the LORD] counted it [Abraham's act of believing] to him [Abraham] for righteousness.
Comment: This passage speaks of the LORD imputing/accounting Abraham's faith to Abraham.
This passage speaks of the IMPUTATION OF FAITH, the act of believing. This is quite obvious. But do you agree?
Romans 4:
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith [act of believing] is counted for righteousness.
Comment: This passage speaks of the LORD - that justifies the ungodly - imputing/accounting the believer's faith to the believer. This passage speaks of the IMPUTATION OF FAITH, the act of believing. This is quite plain too, but do you agree?
1689 Chapter 11 on Justification says,
Those whom God effectually calleth, He also freely justifieth,(1) not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous;(2) not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone;(3) NOT BY imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing Christ's active obedience unto the whole law, and passive obedience in His death for their whole and sole righteousness,(4) they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith, which faith they have not of themselves; it is the gift of God.(5)
The Framers emphatically state the Justification at effectual calling DOES NOT INVOLVE the imputation of faith, the act of believing.
IMPUTATION OF BELIEVER'S FAITH is VERY REMOTELY JUSTIFICATION.
IMPUTATION OF CHRIST'S RIGHTEOUSNESS - by virtue of Christ's active and passive obedience - IS JUSTIFICATION.
The essence of Justification is declaring a guilty condemned criminal not guilty but righteous by the imputation of the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
Genesis 15 and Romans 4 passages speak of the imputation of the believer's faith to the believer. They say nothing of the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the ungodly.
My question:
Why do the Reformed (and the Arminian as well!) folks ALWAYS read those two passages as speaking of the justification of guilty condemned sinner before God?
If Gen 15 is speaking of Abraham's justification before God, then Abraham would necessarily be an UN-justified UNGODLY man in Gen 12-14. But was Abraham an unjustified ungodly man in Gen 12-14?
Is Gen 15 speaking of Abraham's justification by God?
God justifies the UNGODLY. How does God justify the UNGODLY?
Faith justifies the BELIEVER. How does faith justify the BELIEVER?
desiring to learn,
sing
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On Dec 27, 2007, at 8:21 PM, bee wrote:
Dear sing,
I've better go home soon. Oh, but just before I sign off I would like to ask for your understanding of Psalm 106:30-31 (cf Gen 15:5-6). This is in response to your previous email on the Genesis passage. I am sorry that I cannot often give an indepth reply to your posted question as I have found myself going home later and later due to the many email messages I have to reply to, usually at the end of work each day. But keep the questions coming for they serve to stimulate my mind to think even though you may not get to hear my answer. Thanks.
bee
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On 12/31/07, sing wrote:
Dear Bee,
You asked about Phinehas in Ps 106:30-31 and his great exploit for the Lord.
This is what I wrote in the 'Pruning' book. I copy and paste it here.
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"Phinehas' courageous act was an act of faith and it was accounted to him for righteousness – "Then stood up Phinehas, and executed judgment: and so the plague was stayed. And that was counted unto him for righteousness unto all generations for evermore" Ps 106:30-31. It was certainly not the using of a javelin on the two whoremongers that effected his legal justification, i.e., his right standing before God. There was no imputation of the righteousness of Christ to Phinehas here! It was his great act of faith that was counted unto him for righteousness – he was blessed to experience the blessedness of his justified and righteous state, evidenced by his faithful act.
Faith is not merely the sole instrument to evidence the justified state of the person by free grace. Faith is also the only means for an elect to enter into a conscious experience and enjoyment of the benefits of salvation, even 'those benefits which in this life accompany or flow from justification, adoption and sanctification. They include "assurance of God's love, peace of conscience, joy in the Holy Spirit, increase of grace, and perseverance therein to the end" (SC Q.36). By faith in Christ the Saviour, a justified man experiences the blessedness of all sins forgiven at justification; he experiences the blessedness of the righteousness of Christ imputed at effectual call. These blessings are accounted to him by God's free grace. By faith in Jesus Christ, a regenerated elect of God 'really and personally' enters into the enjoyment and experience the 'liberties and privileges' as adopted children of God. This is what Gen 15:6 speaks of concerning Abram. Abram was already a justified man in Gen 12-14, [and evidenced much works of faith.]
This is what is meant when the Confession says, "they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith, which faith they have not of themselves; it is the gift of God" 1689.11.1. This is justification experienced through the instrument of faith. This is not justification secured through the instrument of faith – i.e., right standing with God is NOT secured through the instrument of faith, double imputation of sins and righteousness is NOT through the instrument of faith – as espoused and defended by the leaders of these seven churches."
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I hope the paragraphs answer your question.
Ps 106:30-31 is another nail into the coffin of the heretical idea that legal justification is through the instrumentality of believer's faith - espoused and defended by the leaders of these seven RB churches.
learning still,
sing
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On Dec 31, 2007, at 10:15 PM, Bee wrote:
Dear sing,
Sorry to miss your explanation in the 'Pruning' book. Yes, it's interesting to me to note the same phrase : "that was counted unto him for righteousness" being used to describe the consequence of both Abraham's faith and Phinehas' action (or work). If this phrase is used to refer to 'legal justification' or 'eternal salvation' by faith as claimed in the case of Abraham, then it would have to mean also salvation by work in the case of Phinehas - which obviously we (apart from the RC) do not believe in.
How then do the proponents of those using Abraham's example to support justification by faith explain Ps 106:30-31 re God's response to Phinehas' action?
Sitting at His feet,
Bee
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January 1, 2008 1:13:15 AM GMT+07:00
Dear Bee
May our Lord and Saviour bless the year ahead.
Your conclusion "then it would have to mean also...." is a good example of rightly dividing the word of truth. I wish some reformed baptists would think like you do. But they don't, and refuse to!
Your question, "How then do the proponents of those using Abraham's example to support justification (LEGAL) by faith explains Ps 106:30-31 ..."
First, the simple answer, that passage does not even figure in their consideration. I have not come across a single instant where Ps 106:30-31 is considered by the proponents of justification (legal) by faith!!! That passage, as you rightly concludes, contradicts and repudiates their grievous error.
Second, perhaps you might want to direct your question to your own pastor and those associated with him. I would be interested to know his answer, if he is brave and honest enough to venture an answer.
So far, no reformed baptists in the wide whole world has responded to my simple and honest inquiry on the relationship on Gen 15:1-6, Romans 4:1-8 and 1689.11.1. And the reason is very simple... answering the questions would state the truth of God as well as exposing their grievous and gospel repudiating error.
It is no small error... after all the reformed people have always affirmed that 'the doctrine of justification determines the standing or the falling of a church.' If it had been a minor matter, I would have KEPT my mouth shut, and let the fire burn within.
another Mary at the Lord's feet,
sing
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