Everlasting Life & Believing
Thu Jul 31, 2003 2:05 pm sing wrote:
Dear brethren,
I have several questions on John 5:24-25. Please help me.
v24. 'Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
v25. Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.'
Honest and guileless questions:
1. Is having everlasting life the result, or the cause of hearing Christ's word and believing in the Father who sent Him?
- If it is the result, my question is, without everlasting life is it possible for one who is spiritually dead to hear and to believe?
- If it is the cause, how and when does one come to possess that everlasting life?
2. How and when did one pass from death into life?
3. Will the dead hear the voice of the Son of God immediately (without means) or mediately (with means)?
4. Is the voice of the Son of God life-giving conveyed without external and human means or is it convey by the preaching of the gospel?
5. For those who hear - is it because the voice of Christ is particularly directed at them and they therefore hear (like dead Lazarus), or is it because there is something in them not found in others.
Thanks for your kind consideration,
sing
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Fri Aug 1, 2003 10:39 am Rye (a RB pastor) wrote:
Sing,
My comments after your questions:
Honest and guileless questions: 1. Is having everlasting life the result, or the cause of hearing Christ's word and believing in the Father who sent Him? - If it is the result, my question is, without everlasting life is it possible for one who is spiritually dead to hear and to believe? - If it is the cause, how and when does one come to possess that everlasting life?
The Scripture says: he who hears My word and believes in him who sent Me has everlasting life.
Unless the grammar says otherwise, based on the English version, it does appear that 'everlasting life' is the result of hearing and believing.
'To have everlasting life' is here contrasted with 'not come into judgment'.
'Come into judgment' I take it to mean 'eternal damnation'.
Hence, what is held forth here is the blessing, the promise, the 'reward' of hearing and believing in Christ. If we believe in Christ, we will have eternal life, and escape eternal damnation.
How can one who is dead spiritually hear and believe?
The text does not deal with this matter directly, I believe.
Other texts will give us the answer.
2. How and when did one pass from death into life?
I believe our text is describing the change in spiritual condition of the one who believes. He was one 'dead'. Now, he is 'alive'. Therefore, he has passed from 'death into life'.
Putting all the relevant text on new birth and conversion together, could we answer by saying that one pass from death into life when he is regenerated and converted.
3. Will the dead hear the voice of the Son of God immediately (without means) or mediately (with means)?
Jesus Christ was then on earth. He calls men (verbally) to come to Him. Some came, others don't. The difference must lie in the fact that for those who came, they had more than the verbal call of Christ.
Now Christ is not on earth, but the church is Christ's ambassador. We represent Christ and calls men to come to Him. For those who came, again, it must be more than our verbal call
as Christ's representative. Therefore, my answer would be, the dead hear the voice of God mediately.
4. Is the voice of the Son of God life-giving conveyed without external and human means or is it convey by the preaching of the gospel?
Normally, by the preaching of the gospel.
5. For those who hear - is it because the voice of Christ is particularly directed at them and they therefore hear (like dead Lazarus), or is it because there is something in them not found in others.
The former, I am persuaded.
Rye
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Sat Aug 2, 2003 3:43 am, Kake (another RB pastor) wrote:
Dear Sing,
I agree with Rye's answer.
I think the texts are clear that 'whoever believes will have everlasting life'.
Kake
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Fri Aug 1, 2003 1:43 pm
Brother Rye
Thanks for your response.
The Lord says, 'He who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has [HAS, present tense; not WILL HAVE, future tense] everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.'
Let me pick your brain: in saying the above, is our Lord Jesus making a declaration of fact, or is He holding forth or offering something or making a promise of some kind - the 'reward' of hearing and believing in Christ? Is He declaring a statement of fact or is He making some sort of proposal or invitation or overture?
We need to sort out this first.
by grace
sing.
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Fri Aug 1, 2003 5:40 pm
Dear Kake,
The text says, 'He who hears My word and believes in him who sent Me has [simple present] everlasting life, and shall [simple future] not come into judgment, but has passed [perfect present] from death into life.
You said:
== I agree with Rye's answer. I think the texts are clear that 'whoever believes will have everlasting life'. ==
I think the text is plain and clear that 'he who believes HAS [already possesses, and not 'will have'] everlasting life'.
You have just MISREPRESENT the text. ;-))
Please be careful. One must know how to state the text accurately, otherwise how qualified to ascertain the truth of the text???
by grace,
sing
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Sat Aug 2, 2003 12:14 am
Brother Rye,
See some comments marked ## in your reply.
== The Scripture says: he who hears My word and believes in him who sent Me has everlasting life. ==
## Let me repeat, please note, the Lord says, 'has' and NOT 'will have'.
== Unless the grammar says otherwise, based on the English version, it does appear that 'everlasting life' is the result of hearing and believing.==
## From the grammar we have these:
- He who hears and believes HAS eternal life - simple present tense.
- He who hears and believes HAS PASSED from death into life - perfect present tense.
- He who has life is one who has passed from death into life - therefore the simple present of 'has eternal life' is the result of the perfect present of 'has passed from death to life.'
- He who has passed from death to life SHALL not come into condemnation - simple future tense.
The perfect present tense signifies that at a point in the past this person passed from death to life, and that passing from death to life results in the state of 'has eternal life'. He who has eternal life manifests that eternal life in hearing... and believing...
Do I make any sense? Can someone with good command of English or Greek help us here? [may be brother Gene since he was an English teacher, or brother Bill who is a Greek scholar.]
== 'To have everlasting life' is here contrasted with 'not come into judgment'. 'Come into judgment' I take it to mean 'eternal damnation'. Hence, what is held forth here is the blessing, the promise, the 'reward' of hearing and believing in Christ. If we believe in Christ, we will have eternal life, and escape eternal damnation. ==
## I believe the possession of everlasting life is the consequence of having passed from death to life. And having passed from death to life delivers one from the judgment. If anything is contrasted it is death and judgment on the one hand, and eternal life and hearing and believing on the other.
== How can one who is dead spiritually hear and believe? The text does not deal with this matter directly, I believe. Other texts will give us the answer. ==
I don't know whether our text deal directly with the question or not. However it does say, 'has passed from death to life.' The text also speaks of the hearing and believing of one who has eternal life. So the question, does one hear and believe BEFORE or AFTER he has passed from death to life? Back to square one and the question begs an answer.
2. How and when did one pass from death into life?
== I believe our text is describing the change in spiritual condition of the one who believes. He was one 'dead'. Now, he is 'alive'. Therefore, he has passed from 'death into life'. ==
I believe our text is making a statement of the basis or reason why one hears and believes - a person hears and believes because he has eternal life. He has eternal life because he has passed from death to life. What happened in between 'he was once dead' and 'now he is alive'?
== Putting all the relevant text on new birth and conversion together, could we answer by saying that one pass from death into life when he is regenerated and converted.==
One question - a regenerated person before conversion, does he has eternal life? Does regeneration impart the spiritual life? Is the spiritual life imparted eternal life? Sorry for the question - may sound silly but I need to learn.
learning together,
sing
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Sat Aug 2, 2003 9:24 am
(MM is Adjunct Professor at a Baptist Theological Seminary, and Pastor of Union Baptist Church, USA. He is moderator of particularbaptist@yahoogroups.com. ------ sing
Dear Sing,
See comments ### in your post.
Honest and guileless questions:
1. Is having everlasting life the result or the cause of hearing Christ's word and believing in the Father who sent Him?
### Brother Sing....I believe that the one who hears Christ's word and believes in him who sent him has...in his possession..eternal life. The reason he hears is because he already has eternal life...the believing is the result of the eternal life within him.. ...All of these verbs in verse 24 are present tense except two....one is future (shall not come into judgment) and the other one is perfect ( but has passed from death unto life). The perfect tense signifies that ..at a point ...this person passed from death to life...and that passing from death to life has continuing results so that he has and continues be alive.
- If it is the result, my question is, without life is it possible for one who is dead to hear and to believe?
- If it is the cause, how and when does one come to possess that everlasting life?
2. How and when did one pass from death into life?
### One actually passes from death to life when he is regenerated by the Father....This life working in him ALWAYS leads that person to conversion at which point they begin to understand and co-operate with that new life in them. They co-operate with repentance and faith.
3. Will the dead hear the voice of the Son of God immediately (without means) or mediately (with means)?
### I honestly believe it can be either way..... I think there are times when the Lord uses a preacher and in that preacher's words the Lord speaks to the lost in regenerating power. At other times I think the Lord just speaks to a persons heart out of glory. God who commanded the light to shine out of darkness has shined in our our hearts....2Cor 4:6. I do believe conversion is brought about by preaching and teaching the word.
4. Is the voice of the Son of God life-giving conveyed without external and human means or is it convey by the preaching of the gospel?
### See above.
5. For those who hear - is it because the voice of Christ is particularly directed at them and they therefore hear (like dead Lazarus), or is it because there is something in them not found in others.
### Hearing is conversion....life had already been imparted to Lazarus before Christ called him, else Christ would have been talking to a dead and unhearing ear. But, the call of Lazarus resulted in the demonstration of the life that had already been given to him. This is what I think...I believe it is right...maybe there are other views I can learn from
Yours in Him,
MM
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Sat Aug 2, 2003 9:24 am, steve wrote:
Brethren,
First of All, Verse 24 uses "heareth my word" (logos), which I believe is the gospel. The ability to hear the gospel is an evidence that one has everlasting life and and shall not come into condemnation: but is passed from death unto life.
Verse 25 uses "Shall hear the voice (fonay) of the Son of God" Example: It is one thing to hear Sing's word read and talked about, but it is an entirely different thing to hear Sing's voice. Does this make sense?
Summation: Verse 24 gives the hearing of the word as an evidence that one has possession of everlasting life and verse 25 tells how the the life came to the sinner who was once dead.
I personally believe that this is the difference that you asked about.
Bro Steve
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Sat Aug 2, 2003 9:24 am Brainy Giant wrote:
Howdy Sing,
My comments marked *
Honest and guileless questions:
1. Is having everlasting life the result or the cause of hearing Christ's word and believing in the Father who sent Him?
* It is both, I believe. It is the cause in that life has already been given to our stony heart that causes us to hear. It is the result in that we are adopted into God's family as a result of this hearing and fleeing to Christ.
- If it is the result, my question is, without life is it possible for one who is dead to hear and to believe?
- If it is the cause, how and when does one come to possess that everlasting life?
* My understanding of the logical order of these things begins with election in eternity past; the call (regeneration, or the giving of life to a dead sinner); then conversion; followed by justification, adoption and glorification. *One comes to possess everlasting life through regeneration which always brings forth repentance and faith in the sinner's heart.
2. How and when did one pass from death into life?
*Good question! I am not sure if you would say that one passed when regenerated or when they were justified by faith.
3. Will the dead hear the voice of the Son of God immediately (without means) or mediately (with means)?
*If you are referring to regeneration, then it is immediate -- but if you are referring to the gospel, then it is mediate, that is, through means.
4. Is the voice of the Son of God life-giving conveyed without external and human means or is it convey by the preaching of the gospel?
*If you mean regeneration, then without human means.
5. For those who hear -- is it because the voice of Christ is particularly directed at them and they therefore hear (like dead Lazarus), or is it because there is something in them not found in others.
*The only difference in them is that God has opened their hearts. There is nothing found in them, of themselves, that God would respect. Question, would the Pharisee that prayed in the temple agree with this (in theory) as much as the publican?
BG
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Sat Aug 2, 2003 10:29 am
Dear Sing
I note your comments and questions.
I apologise that I would not be able to get into any meaningful discussion with you (and/or others) on this subject until Wed next week.
Of course, by then, this matter could have been sufficiently discussed and satisfactorily answered by the other distingushed members of this discussion list.
Till then, . . .
Rye
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Mon Aug 4, 2003 9:19 am
Dear brethren,
I posed the question below on various email forum.
If you have time, I would appreciate if you give it some thoughts.
asking to learn,
sing
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Dear brethren,
Someone who is proficient in Greek, could you please parse the various verbs used in John 3:16.
I am also wondering, is John 3:16 a declarative statement about salvation, or a proposal or invitation for salvation?
desiring to learn,
sing
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Thu Aug 7, 2003 2:40 pm
RE: John 5:24, 25
Having looked through what has already been said, especially by many more proficient and able men, I feel I do not have any further significant contribution to make to this subject.
Sing, I trust you have received what you aim for when you post
the question.
God bless.
Rye
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